DUST Search - Statement from CPM0 - "State of affairs : Communication & Trust"

Buster Friently wrote:

Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote:

Buster Friently wrote:

I fail to see why a properly elected CPM couldn't be working with CCP to improve things just as effectively as the unelected CPM0. All we need is elections. That's all CPM0 should be doing - providing the framework to deliver CPM1. By this measure, they're as delinquent as CCP in delivering milestones.

Still a good effort, I just think it's on the wrong goals.

Because the whole point of our statement was to highlight the areas where CCP needs to improve their working relationship with the CPM, to bring it to the level that everyone's come to expect from the CSM over the years. In other words, they're NOT using us anywhere near as effectively as they could. Replacing us with elected individuals won't magically make CCP integrate us into their development process anymore than they do now. It just means you'll have a new CPM who's make-up will largely be determined by a popularity contest, that still has all the same challenges ahead convincing CCP to work with them. And depending on the individuals elected, CCP may be more or less willing to respect their feedback (After all, the players could elect trolls or large alliance leaders that may or may not have the capability of remaining professional and effective in a time of crisis).

In other words, if there's no working, established, functional CPM body to begin with (with a structured way that CCP engages them regularly, and proof that this process is working to get player feedback considered by the devs in a timely fashion) elections may very well be a step backwards, not forwards.

No, it's not a step backwards. It's a step towards representation.
Currently, you guys don't represent players by popularity contest or otherwise.

I agree with your main point - that improvements need to be made to communication. An elected body would actually represent something other than whomever CCP picked.

See, I agree that all this needs to be done, but I don't agree that the CPM0's ideas of how Dust should look different have any merit because the entire point of the CPM is to represent players - which you don't.

Now I'm sorry to derail this as I have. The point from the OP is valid. Hopefully it helps. I still feel the CPM0 should be moving aside as quickly as possible, rather than trying to fix Dust.


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Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 7146	Posted - 2013.08.12 01:32:00 - [1] - Quote In my experience in the US Navy has taught me anything is that is rarely the individual at fault for something continuously done procedurally the wrong way because that guy was taught by the other guy ect ect on that's how its always been because the culture dictates it so. Back in the age of older aircraft where jury rigging would be commonplace that sort of behavior has no place in precision designed current generation of fighter craft where things MUST be done the right way or stupider things happen. Someone upstairs realized that and started hammering it from top down and the last few years got to see and participate into the process myself of 'reculturing' workflow and the sorts. Everything was observed under a magnifying glass, everything measured, and everything integrated for improvement. In the short course of two years we safely managed to reduce our operational costs at our facility by 2 Billion USD while increasing quality and reducing rework all because we change the culture up. As I said in short from the AMA, CCP needs to do some HTFU of its own and get with the program. I realize that not only most of CCP Shanghai may potentially not speak english that is nearly holding true for those in CCP Iceland as well where they recruit from various european nations. Yet it doesn't stop the communications over there. CCP Shanghai is probably comprised of various developers who for the longest time never had a player(s) look over their shoulders on what they're doing. Most of the industry doesn't do this either. It's something CCP will have to come to terms on their own, we, the CPM, will continue to remind them it needs to happen and reinforce the points as to why it needs to be done.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 7148	Posted - 2013.08.12 05:15:00 - [2] - Quote TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote: If this thread doesn't get a blue tag soon, I'll lose all faith in humanity. Oh... the CPM got something better
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 7151	Posted - 2013.08.12 06:11:00 - [3] - Quote Naedeus wrote: Couldn't CCP go an extra step (in the future) and sync new DUST content to SiSi? That way community members who have access to the Singularity server can help test new DUST content before it's released to Tranquility. That's probably one of the better ways to conduct testing rather than throwing it to the wolves and hoping for the best. Problem with test server and our current monthly patch cycles is that test builds would also be just as long delayed.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 7173	Posted - 2013.08.13 00:41:00 - [4] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: Buster Friently wrote: I fail to see why a properly elected CPM couldn't be working with CCP to improve things just as effectively as the unelected CPM0. All we need is elections. That's all CPM0 should be doing - providing the framework to deliver CPM1. By this measure, they're as delinquent as CCP in delivering milestones. Still a good effort, I just think it's on the wrong goals. Because the whole point of our statement was to highlight the areas where CCP needs to improve their working relationship with the CPM, to bring it to the level that everyone's come to expect from the CSM over the years. In other words, they're NOT using us anywhere near as effectively as they could. Replacing us with elected individuals won't magically make CCP integrate us into their development process anymore than they do now. It just means you'll have a new CPM who's make-up will largely be determined by a popularity contest, that still has all the same challenges ahead convincing CCP to work with them. And depending on the individuals elected, CCP may be more or less willing to respect their feedback (After all, the players could elect trolls or large alliance leaders that may or may not have the capability of remaining professional and effective in a time of crisis). In other words, if there's no working, established, functional CPM body to begin with (with a structured way that CCP engages them regularly, and proof that this process is working to get player feedback considered by the devs in a timely fashion) elections may very well be a step backwards, not forwards. No, it's not a step backwards. It's a step towards representation. Currently, you guys don't represent players by popularity contest or otherwise. I agree with your main point - that improvements need to be made to communication. An elected body would actually represent something other than whomever CCP picked. See, I agree that all this needs to be done, but I don't agree that the CPM0's ideas of how Dust should look different have any merit because the entire point of the CPM is to represent players - which you don't. Now I'm sorry to derail this as I have. The point from the OP is valid. Hopefully it helps. I still feel the CPM0 should be moving aside as quickly as possible, rather than trying to fix Dust. If you elected a body of individuals who are entirely clueless as to what their CPM duties are how things are done and how to talk to CCP to work with them it would be a step backwards because they can easily be just as hostile as the IRC is and any attempts to talk to the CPM by CCP or vice versa could be an entirely unproductive process, nearly undo the entire process that CPM 0 has been trying to set up and possibly severely damage damage the CPM 2 and beyond. What if all of CPM1 decided to screw the NDA and release things without approval? getting fired and all. There are many way to represent players as a whole though the best deal though is good amounts of varying opinions and coverage of ideas. Just because one individual may think the flaylock may be in good place, doesn't mean that it is yet that doesn't invalidate his representation of players who also feel the same way whatever their reasons are. Politics aside the players elected should only be entering the election process with the best intentions in mind, I wonder how many of those people who were also vetted when the War Council was first brought up that are no longer with us today? Or those that called for replacement of members before and after the term started? What sort of credibility those people have now? Trust me whatever reasons they have left for, had they been in the CPM then they would have left much sooner than that. The CPM is not fun and games, it consumes a crud ton of time, can keep you up late at night just typing away and making reports. Waking up at odd hours just to make a meeting or getting personal contact with members of CCP and takes serious amounts of dedication more so than the hardcore players who are tipping over 20 million just now, and this is just trying to interact with CCP alone, interacting with the community is nearly just as humongous in time consumption and most of the work done within the CPM will be thankless, silent victories, and secreted wins that individual or the entire CPM will never be credited for. Some victories to which may not bear fruit well until after that council is dismissed for end of term. CPM 0's job is to ensure that CPM 1 will not be the LAST CPM elected and rushing to getting those guys elected now would almost guarantee that.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 7526	Posted - 2013.08.19 23:27:00 - [5] - Quote I felt much better coming out of the meeting for sure and my optimism for useful future CPMs as been better realized. Just waiting for the said concrete mix now, being able to inspect the contents and mix before pouring it.