There is bound to be negative reaction to this thread and it's topic, and I am happy that you expect it, and don't take it personally. That is precisely the level of forum warrior I've come to expect from those that brave the Feedback/Requests section of these forums.

I agree when you say that both assaultman and sniper have their disadvantages and advantages and they should be at each other's mercy if the circumstances permit.

All too often, the circumstances do NOT permit the sniper to exploit the weakness of the assaultman, and this is true for good reason. If sniping could be done with absolute ease and perfection on every map, it would cancel the existence of the assaultman. (Example: Replication-era and Chromosome-era Manus' Peak.)

However, the advantage of the assaultman is his ability to flank and CQC. Therefore, if you make being an assaultman something that can be done with absolute ease and perfection on every map (by adding stairs and ladders to every high point), it would cancel the existence of the sniper.

Just as you have sniper teams elite enough to totally lock down a tower; you have assault teams that are elite enough to totally lock down every point accessible by ladder and stair.
Let another role exist.
Not every sniper and forge gunner is an Overwatch sniper and forge gunner.

I'm torn.

On the one hand, I agree: it's kind of annoying. It's especially annoying when you've got a heavy with an Ishukone Forge effectively covering an objective such that anyone who tries to hack gets obliterated.

On the other hand, the tallest areas have absolutely no cover aside from sheer height, require positioning at or near the edge to be able to effectively fire down, and can be effectively covered by snipers on just about any point of the map. Even the aforementioned Ishukone heavy is going to have trouble covering that objective when somebody keeps trying to split his melon with a charged sniper flechette. The highest points aren't so much of a problem for thems as lacks dropships as they are for thems as lacks decent snipers. Sure, you have to have get somebody to take time off from doing more "productive" things to go hassle a high-altitude heavy or two, but it's imminently doable. You just have to make the time.

Also, I can't help feeling that it's kind of neat that there are areas only dropships can reach. They're otherwise the most long-suffering vehicle in the game.

I will reiterate the defining point: Snipers can only be trumped by snipers. This is not balance.

It's come to everyone's attention that people fly dropships onto buildings; tall, medium, and the sorts, and use forge guns and sniper rifles from this great height advantage. This is a minor issue.

One thing that's not cool is that these areas are accessible only by dropship. This means that in order to deal with these roof-dwellers, you must risk going up in a dropship and expend just as much, just to remove a thorn in your side. Now that doesn't sound a whole lotta wrong but it's easier said than done. It could take a dozen dropships to finally evade forges from that rooftop.

However I sure as hell don't want to remove rooftop warfare from the game, that would be totally gremlin stunt. No, to address this weird minor issue that kind of paints the game a little more ugly, is by map development that increases availability of roofs by the ground.

For example, on Communications I believe a small spiral staircase could give access to a catwalk on the first section of the large structure (D+E 5-7) On the upper portion of the structure, a couple ladders could lead down to the catwalks giving all-roof access to the building. This is just an example to portray means of increasing roof access and overall flavor.

Thumbs up?

The same can be said for many things in this game. Right now it's a very broken version of 'rock paper scissors'. A true counter to something should never be itself.

This thread is loaded with a lot of "killing tower and rooftop snipers/forge gunners" is too hard.

If a sniper can't fight you in CQC, it's "tough luck, that is a sniper's weakness and i'm entitled to exploit it".
Yet when you can't fight a sniper in CQC it's all of a sudden, "it's not fair that i can't reach him. that is imbalanced. i should be able to exploit his weakness, and he shouldn't be able to exploit mine."
Fk that selfish, hypocritical nonsense, disguised as logic.

This thread in a nutshell. Militia Dropships only cost 70k ISK, require no skills trained to fly, and can get you there pretty fast.

If you can't be bothered to fly up there, land, then spray and pray with your AR until you get a kill, then you deserve to get sniped over and over.

If you can't be bothered to load the FREE SNIPER FIT and suppress them, you deserve to get blown to bits by blue balls of death.

If you can't be bothered to work as a team, you deserve to die alone.

Someone said something about how everything is supposed to counter everything.

Please keep your homogenous CODpulp out, thank you.

This again is not an issue of unbeatable tactics. Its an issue of tactics being unbeatable by non-tactics.

How in the f-¦ck could you even be so massively self entitled to a right of beating others in their game?
The bunch-o-protos on the roof ruin your day?

Ruin theirs.

They managed to get a tactical advantage, then manage to keep the tactical advantage. Do something about it.
If you cant kill them, make them bleed.

There is a whole coordinated squad on the rooftop, guess what counters a well coordinated team on a rooftop?
A well coordinated drop on said rooftop. A well coordinated countersniping measure. A well coordinated heavy ordinance bombardement.
Notice a pattern there? The "well coordinated" part is what you-¦re looking for.

You got sh!t gear? Put on your face paint, soldier, you get to try way harder than them. Been there done that.
You got sh!t tactics? Tough f-¦cking luck, bite the pillow since you refuse to learn and adapt. You are the reason pubstomping happens.

Do not expect the game to win itself for you, especially not against other players. Especially not those who seek self-esteem through protostomping.

One thing that's not cool is that these areas are accessible only by dropship.

Someone said something about how everything is supposed to counter everything.

Please keep your homogenous CODpulp out, thank you.

This again is not an issue of unbeatable tactics. Its an issue of tactics being unbeatable by non-tactics.

How in the f-¦ck could you even be so massively self entitled to a right of beating others in their game?
The bunch-o-protos on the roof ruin your day?

Ruin theirs.

They managed to get a tactical advantage, then manage to keep the tactical advantage. Do something about it.
If you cant kill them, make them bleed.

There is a whole coordinated squad on the rooftop, guess what counters a well coordinated team on a rooftop?
A well coordinated drop on said rooftop. A well coordinated countersniping measure. A well coordinated heavy ordinance bombardement.
Notice a pattern there? The "well coordinated" part is what you-¦re looking for.

You got sh!t gear? Put on your face paint, soldier, you get to try way harder than them. Been there done that.
You got sh!t tactics? Tough f-¦cking luck, bite the pillow since you refuse to learn and adapt. You are the reason pubstomping happens.

Do not expect the game to win itself for you, especially not against other players. Especially not those who are better than you.

Now answer this:
- How many ways are there to kill a sniper?

1. Countersnipe
2. Forgegun to the face
3. Plasma Cannon to the teeth.
4. Fly-by.
5. Zerg-drop
6. Railsniping.
7. Rocket barrage
8. Orbital Bombardement.

You want me to continue?

I believe the point he was making was that you can kill other infantry and/or vehicles more easily than you can kill snipers, not that there aren't ways to kill snipers. Hell, all of those you listed work just as well on assault guys, although it's just sniping when you guys do it.

1. Countersnipe
2. Forgegun to the face
3. Plasma Cannon to the teeth.
4. Fly-by.
5. Zerg-drop
6. Railsniping.
7. Rocket barrage
8. Orbital Bombardement.

You want me to continue?

Please do, considering none of those other than OB and counter sniping actually work in practice:

- Good luck getting a forge gun or plasma cannon to hit anyone on top of a tower.
- Good luck getting the elevation required to rail snipe.
- Same for rocket barrage.

A fly by can and has worked before for counter snipers, but a forge gun can take out your flying, noisy pinata before it can even be dropped, so tactics four and five don't count.

This is about addressing both problems at the same time, not just about addressing snipers.

Sorry but you've just proved my point.

A whole sniper team can hold down a tower. Think about that tower for a minute - how did the snipers get up there? I bet they didn't rappel from a helicopter onto the roof. If they did, I think all buildings in existence have roof access and they should in the future. It shouldn't be the case the one sniper and one forge gunner can lock down a tower, but that they need to cover their weaknesses by packing good sidearms or bringing good soldiers to cover the stairs.

Right now they don't need ths soldiers, but for you to take them out you need the snipers. That is not balanced.

I will reiterate the defining point: Snipers can only be trumped by snipers. This is not balance.

As a sniper, these rooftops with a drop uplink on them are a feeding frenzy for me. Unless I'm against a team I don't take seriously at all, I won't go on top of those rooftops. One good sniper can clear these rooftops off or at the very least keep them pinned down. Trying to say you have to have ground access to these rooftops would be like saying you have to make snipers have a viable kill option in CQC like quick scoping. Give me an instakill melee with the butt of my sniper and I'll support your idea.

Exactly. One broken idea begets another broken idea.

At this rate, sniper rifles will have to work exactly as they do in Battlefield 3 to be viable options.... No sway, super fast semi-auto fire, and an ACOG scope.

lmao imagine a Thale's with an ACOG scope... jeez... and they cry about imbalance when the sniper rifle is being used properly? lol

What are you both on?

Give me a single building in existence that has no ground access. This whole thread is about making snipers worry about being hit in the back, like they should be.

- Good luck getting a forge gun or plasma cannon to hit anyone on top of a tower.

Just because YOU can't get them to work, doesn't mean that they don't.

It's come to everyone's attention that people fly dropships onto buildings; tall, medium, and the sorts, and use forge guns and sniper rifles from this great height advantage. This is a minor issue.

One thing that's not cool is that these areas are accessible only by dropship. This means that in order to deal with these roof-dwellers, you must risk going up in a dropship and expend just as much, just to remove a thorn in your side. Now that doesn't sound a whole lotta wrong but it's easier said than done. It could take a dozen dropships to finally evade forges from that rooftop.

However I sure as hell don't want to remove rooftop warfare from the game, that would be totally gremlin stunt. No, to address this weird minor issue that kind of paints the game a little more ugly, is by map development that increases availability of roofs by the ground.

For example, on Communications I believe a small spiral staircase could give access to a catwalk on the first section of the large structure (D+E 5-7) On the upper portion of the structure, a couple ladders could lead down to the catwalks giving all-roof access to the building. This is just an example to portray means of increasing roof access and overall flavor.

Thumbs up?

Give me a single building in existence that has no ground access.

My house doesn't have a ladder or staircase to the roof. And I used to live in a two story house that didn't either.