DUST Search - Addressing Building-Rooftop Warfare

Bojo The Mighty wrote:

TheEnd762 wrote:

You mean like how Snipers are currently outgunned by pretty much anyone else, unless they're on a roof, along the edges of the map, or behind the redline? Our scout suits can be shredded in one short burst from an AR and our rifles are useless inside 100m or so. If you get to beg for some stupid mechanic to allow you to easily engage a sniper in his element, where's the mechanic for sniper to easily engage grunts down on the field, or shotgunners and nova knifers in CQC? AND WITHOUT HAVING TO CHANGE OUR WEAPON/SUIT/EQIUIPMENT OR USE TEAMWORK, SINCE THAT'S OUT OF THE QUESTION?

Snipers are not supposed to be untouchable, yet you ask to keep it like that. Snipers are not outgunned by other guns, they are under-ranged by other guns. Sniping does not require teamwork so why should killing a sniper require teamwork.

Your assumption is that all snipers have to be in Redzones or on top of buildings where people can not reach them. That's just scaredy-pus gameplay, going only where other people won't hurt you Roll

Also, it's a ladder for god's sake! It's not the end of the world! For all intents and purposes this would save snipers and forges a lot of money in risking dropships.

The mechanic that allows snipers to easily engage grunts is already there, it's the fricken rooftops! Hypocrisy 101.

PS: Get out of your scout suit if you are so concerned about ARs, Shotguns, and Knives Oh MY! No one has a scanning range of 100+ meters so slap on a heavy suit if you don't want to blow away.

@ Timothy Reaper: I know you are a top-o-the line sniper but I am not and no one is on team chat, no one responds to LFS very often these days, and I have nowhere near a prototype sniper. I can fly a DS but I've seen many a blueberry fail miserably, including myself due to Proto forges. My suggestion for ladders and walkways, all it does is remove the need to risk a dropship for snipers and ARs alike.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
TheEnd762 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 110	Posted - 2013.07.29 16:22:00 - [1] - Quote I wouldn't mind ladders on a few of the medium-level structures, but not on the really high perches. I have to risk my dropships to get up there (against various installations, Forge Gunners, tanks, swarms, etc) in the first place. If someone can't be bothered to call in a dropship of their own, let alone pull out a free sniper fit to take me out, then they need to stay on the ground and worry about stuff on their level. And not that I'd do it, but if you open up the access of these structures even more, you're just gonna have more people sniping from the redline. And I know no one wants that. Snipers are going to snipe. Period. Yes, we're annoying. That's part of our ****ing job. Make peace with our existence, because we're not going away, no matter how much you want us to, or how much you try to change to game to screw us over.
TheEnd762 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 110	Posted - 2013.07.29 16:36:00 - [2] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: TheEnd762 wrote: If someone can't be bothered to call in a dropship of their own, but, why would you use a dropship when there is a ladder? Because a ladder takes no skill. Ladders are also a big "hey, go up here" and "hey, if you're getting sniped, look up here" sign. Using a dropship allows you to get to places people might not think of looking.
TheEnd762 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 111	Posted - 2013.07.29 17:21:00 - [3] - Quote J Lav wrote: I think the problem at present is that the aforementioned perches are large enough that they provide cover from sniper fire, overlook objectives and can easily defend itself from a dropship. Yes it means they are not on an objective, but it allows 1 guy to be virtually unassailable. This identifies 2 significant causes, 1st, the dropship has no defence from a forgegun on a roof top. 2nd It is too easy to cover an objective without being visible to countersniping. 99% of the time, if they can see you to shoot you, you can see them, if you know where to look. The other 1% of the time, it's a terrain/hit detection glitch, for which ladders are not the answer. A great sniper is hard to find, and a good sniper is at least hard to get to. That's just the nature of the beast.
TheEnd762 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 111	Posted - 2013.07.29 17:49:00 - [4] - Quote Like I said, it's not 100% safe. Not even close. You put stairs and ladders everywhere, people are just going to snipe from the redzone.
TheEnd762 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 111	Posted - 2013.07.29 18:43:00 - [5] - Quote Try counter-forge gunning, or landing/crashing a dropship onto/into them. Or use a railgun installation. Or just ignore them and go about the rest of the match. Putting stairs or ladders up to there just means they'll have someone parked at the top, with that same proto forge gun trained on it, or maybe some REs. I've dealt with this same issue. I either leave them be and try to deal with accessible enemies, or I spend the entire match forcing them to stay away from the edge, thus being unable to exploit their elevated position. I might not kill them, but they'll have a much harder time killing anyone else.
TheEnd762 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 111	Posted - 2013.07.29 19:19:00 - [6] - Quote No, because it robs those players of a well-earned position and already balanced strategy by giving easy access to people without the skill to get up there the same way. And let's be honest; the point of the stairs/ladder idea was never to ADD anything to the gameplay, it was to make things harder for snipers. Yes, there are already people sniping from behind the redline. But if this is implemented and perches are compromised, a great deal MORE people will be doing it. People with actual skill, and it will be a LOT more frustrating. People need to understand, you're never going to convince snipers to run headfirst into the fray, or to put down their sniper rifles and pick up ARs by breaking their tactics and strategies.
TheEnd762 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 111	Posted - 2013.07.29 19:50:00 - [7] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: See a Four man heavy squad with rep nanohives down on a roof, you're not going to get rid of them and because they're killing you, they're the one with the OB, not you. I feel there should be more accessibility to roof tops, Ladders, additional walkways and stairs would be nice. And to combat the "BUT THEY'LL USE THEM IN THE RED LINE" argument, don't place said structures in the red line :) No one is saying they'll use those structures in the redline. They'll just snipe and forge gun from the redline rather than the rooftop.
TheEnd762 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 114	Posted - 2013.07.31 00:29:00 - [8] - Quote If we have to deal with ladders and stairways, we better get anti-infantry proxy mines.
TheEnd762 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 114	Posted - 2013.07.31 00:39:00 - [9] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: TheEnd762 wrote: If we have to deal with ladders and stairways, we better get anti-infantry proxy mines. Or you can upgrade your Scan Precision and Range Those don't make a sniper rifle viable at -20m.
TheEnd762 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 123	Posted - 2013.08.01 12:18:00 - [10] - Quote Ladders and stairways are an easy way to force snipers into AR/CQC range, where their rifles are ineffective, and their scout suits are momentarily shredded. So, I ask you, where's the mechanic to force AR rambos back out to a sniper-friendly distance? Oh right, if you don't want people sniping from the redzone, there isn't one. I killed Symbioticforks (a formidable pain in the *** from Hellstorm Inc) twice in the same match this morning, while he was on a tower and I was on the ground. And if you can't kill them, keeping them away from the ledge (thus unable to kill people on the ground) is still helping your team, and is sufficiently balanced.

TheEnd762 SVER True Blood 134	Posted - 2013.08.03 03:44:00 - [11] - Quote Ferindar wrote: Jathniel wrote: This thread is loaded with a lot of "killing tower and rooftop snipers/forge gunners" is too hard. If a sniper can't fight you in CQC, it's "tough luck, that is a sniper's weakness and i'm entitled to exploit it". Yet when you can't fight a sniper in CQC it's all of a sudden, "it's not fair that i can't reach him. that is imbalanced. i should be able to exploit his weakness, and he shouldn't be able to exploit mine." Fk that selfish, hypocritical nonsense, disguised as logic. This thread in a nutshell. Militia Dropships only cost 70k ISK, require no skills trained to fly, and can get you there pretty fast. If you can't be bothered to fly up there, land, then spray and pray with your AR until you get a kill, then you deserve to get sniped over and over. If you can't be bothered to load the FREE SNIPER FIT and suppress them, you deserve to get blown to bits by blue balls of death. If you can't be bothered to work as a team, you deserve to die alone. QTF.
TheEnd762 SVER True Blood 134	Posted - 2013.08.03 04:28:00 - [12] - Quote You don't even have to go to that same roof! Take Line Harvest for example. Drop onto the back of a tower on the opposite side. The slope allows you to be completely hidden from opposite tower's view. Then get an angle on them and start putting rounds downrange. Or get some guys together, get a dropship, and have one guy bail out, each on a different tower. I've taken out proto forge gunners with rail gun emplacements. You don't even need to be able to operate a militia sniper rifle for that! They're around the stage, for free!
TheEnd762 SVER True Blood 134	Posted - 2013.08.03 05:28:00 - [13] - Quote Delenne Arran wrote: Beeeees wrote: RINON114 wrote: Now answer this: - How many ways are there to kill a sniper? 1. Countersnipe 2. Forgegun to the face 3. Plasma Cannon to the teeth. 4. Fly-by. 5. Zerg-drop 6. Railsniping. 7. Rocket barrage 8. Orbital Bombardement. You want me to continue? I believe the point he was making was that you can kill other infantry and/or vehicles more easily than you can kill snipers, not that there aren't ways to kill snipers. Hell, all of those you listed work just as well on assault guys, although it's just sniping when you guys do it. All those ways listed work much better on snipers than assault grunts, because snipers don't move as much, if at all, and are usually less armored/shielded. And in the case of roof forge gunners, slow large targets.
TheEnd762 SVER True Blood 134	Posted - 2013.08.03 06:48:00 - [14] - Quote RINON114 wrote: Beeeees wrote: RINON114 wrote: Now answer this: - How many ways are there to kill a sniper? 1. Countersnipe 2. Forgegun to the face 3. Plasma Cannon to the teeth. 4. Fly-by. 5. Zerg-drop 6. Railsniping. 7. Rocket barrage 8. Orbital Bombardement. You want me to continue? Please do, considering none of those other than OB and counter sniping actually work in practice: - Good luck getting a forge gun or plasma cannon to hit anyone on top of a tower. - Good luck getting the elevation required to rail snipe. - Same for rocket barrage. A fly by can and has worked before for counter snipers, but a forge gun can take out your flying, noisy pinata before it can even be dropped, so tactics four and five don't count. This is about addressing both problems at the same time, not just about addressing snipers. Just because YOU can't get them to work, doesn't mean that they don't. I've seen ALL of these tactics work, and have used several of them myself.
TheEnd762 SVER True Blood 159	Posted - 2013.08.06 08:09:00 - [15] - Quote You mean like how Snipers are currently outgunned by pretty much anyone else, unless they're on a roof, along the edges of the map, or behind the redline? Our scout suits can be shredded in one short burst from an AR and our rifles are useless inside 100m or so. If you get to beg for some stupid mechanic to allow you to easily engage a sniper in his element, where's the mechanic for sniper to easily engage grunts down on the field, or shotgunners and nova knifers in CQC? AND WITHOUT HAVING TO CHANGE OUR WEAPON/SUIT/EQIUIPMENT, SINCE THAT'S OUT OF THE QUESTION?
TheEnd762 SVER True Blood 162	Posted - 2013.08.06 17:45:00 - [16] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: TheEnd762 wrote: You mean like how Snipers are currently outgunned by pretty much anyone else, unless they're on a roof, along the edges of the map, or behind the redline? Our scout suits can be shredded in one short burst from an AR and our rifles are useless inside 100m or so. If you get to beg for some stupid mechanic to allow you to easily engage a sniper in his element, where's the mechanic for sniper to easily engage grunts down on the field, or shotgunners and nova knifers in CQC? AND WITHOUT HAVING TO CHANGE OUR WEAPON/SUIT/EQIUIPMENT OR USE TEAMWORK, SINCE THAT'S OUT OF THE QUESTION? Snipers are not supposed to be untouchable, yet you ask to keep it like that. Snipers are not outgunned by other guns, they are under-ranged by other guns. Sniping does not require teamwork so why should killing a sniper require teamwork. Your assumption is that all snipers have to be in Redzones or on top of buildings where people can not reach them. That's just scaredy-pus gameplay, going only where other people won't hurt you Also, it's a ladder for god's sake! It's not the end of the world! For all intents and purposes this would save snipers and forges a lot of money in risking dropships. The mechanic that allows snipers to easily engage grunts is already there, it's the fricken rooftops! Hypocrisy 101. PS: Get out of your scout suit if you are so concerned about ARs, Shotguns, and Knives Oh MY! No one has a scanning range of 100+ meters so slap on a heavy suit if you don't want to blow away. @ Timothy Reaper: I know you are a top-o-the line sniper but I am not and no one is on team chat, no one responds to LFS very often these days, and I have nowhere near a prototype sniper. I can fly a DS but I've seen many a blueberry fail miserably, including myself due to Proto forges. My suggestion for ladders and walkways, all it does is remove the need to risk a dropship for snipers and ARs alike. For the last time, they are not untouchable. You just don't want to use any of the several methods already available to you. You want engaging a sniper to be a cakewalk; something you can do on your own, on a whim. You want to give snipers yet another thing to worry about, because they ANNOY you, and you want to break their strategy. Sniping doesn't require teamwork? True. But if a sniper is ALONE on a roof and you can't get him on your own as it is, you don't deserve to. If there's a team of snipers up there, you should need a team to take them out. Teamwork is the one thing that SHOULD only be countered by itself. Everyone wanted snipers out of the MCC, so we got forced out. Then people wanted us out of the redzone, because they couldn't get close to us without auto-dying. Now we're out of the redzone, and you're still crying. You're NOT going to get us running around with the cannon fodder, so stop trying. You take away our perches, we'll go back to the redzone. We ARE outgunned if we're not out of the way. It's not "scaredy-pus" gameplay, that's just how snipers work. I don't care if it would supposedly save me ISK on dropships. I'm comfortable with the risk-vs-reward of dropships as it is right now. The rooftops are not a mechanic for easily engaging grunts that were given to because we cried. Going up there is a strategy we figured out on our own. Just because you can't come up with one to counter it (or again, use one of the SEVERAL that have been listed over and over) doesn't mean it should be broken for you by changing the game. Get out of my scout suit? So you can't be bothered to use a weapon or vehicle that's out of your wheelhouse to take me out, but I'm supposed to change my equipment for you? You have been completely discredited by your hypocrisy.