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Bojo The Mighty
Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation
1300
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 05:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
It's come to everyone's attention that people fly dropships onto buildings; tall, medium, and the sorts, and use forge guns and sniper rifles from this great height advantage. This is a minor issue.
One thing that's not cool is that these areas are accessible only by dropship. This means that in order to deal with these roof-dwellers, you must risk going up in a dropship and expend just as much, just to remove a thorn in your side. Now that doesn't sound a whole lotta wrong but it's easier said than done. It could take a dozed dropships to finally evade forges from that rooftop.
However I sure as hell don't want to remove rooftop warfare from the game, that would be totally gremlin stunt. No, to address this weird minor issue that kind of paints the game a little more ugly, is by map development that increases availability of roofs by the ground.
For example, on Communications I believe a small spiral staircase could give access to a catwalk on the first section of the large structure (D+E 5-7) On the upper portion of the structure, a couple ladders could lead down to the catwalks giving all-roof access to the building. This is just an example to portray means of increasing roof access and overall flavor.
Thumbs up? |
Yun Hee Ryeon
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
138
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Posted - 2013.07.29 06:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'm torn.
On the one hand, I agree: it's kind of annoying. It's especially annoying when you've got a heavy with an Ishukone Forge effectively covering an objective such that anyone who tries to hack gets obliterated.
On the other hand, the tallest areas have absolutely no cover aside from sheer height, require positioning at or near the edge to be able to effectively fire down, and can be effectively covered by snipers on just about any point of the map. Even the aforementioned Ishukone heavy is going to have trouble covering that objective when somebody keeps trying to split his melon with a charged sniper flechette. The highest points aren't so much of a problem for thems as lacks dropships as they are for thems as lacks decent snipers. Sure, you have to have get somebody to take time off from doing more "productive" things to go hassle a high-altitude heavy or two, but it's imminently doable. You just have to make the time.
Also, I can't help feeling that it's kind of neat that there are areas only dropships can reach. They're otherwise the most long-suffering vehicle in the game. |
Bojo The Mighty
Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation
1300
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Posted - 2013.07.29 06:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yun Hee Ryeon wrote:
Also, I can't help feeling that it's kind of neat that there are areas only dropships can reach. They're otherwise the most long-suffering vehicle in the game.
I'm going to have to agree with you there, but what if they brought Manus Peak (the mountain back) but better and there was a jutting only accessible to dropships I just think that industrial/urban structures should be easily accessible, but what if we allowed some geographical places in it's wake? Just make them not a super-dominating location. |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
120
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Posted - 2013.07.29 06:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
I don't mind dropship-only locations.
As long as I have a mortar I can use to drop shells on them with. |
M3DIC 2U
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
80
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Posted - 2013.07.29 16:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
It's a strategy, though I don't think additional ladders/ground access is the answer. Sure for some buildings this would make for a more dynamic map, but I like the high towers for raindown and then having to see someone counter with a good sniper. Makes things interesting. Also nice to know that you just added some rage to that proto for taking out his $$$$ suit.
I say keep it but also add some more arenas with multiple levels to create nuiances and variation. The world has three dimensions, let's play in them all. |
TheEnd762
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
110
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Posted - 2013.07.29 16:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
I wouldn't mind ladders on a *few* of the medium-level structures, but not on the really high perches. I have to risk my dropships to get up there (against various installations, Forge Gunners, tanks, swarms, etc) in the first place. If someone can't be bothered to call in a dropship of their own, let alone pull out a free sniper fit to take me out, then they need to stay on the ground and worry about stuff on their level.
And not that I'd do it, but if you open up the access of these structures even more, you're just gonna have more people sniping from the redline. And I know no one wants that.
Snipers are going to snipe. Period. Yes, we're annoying. That's part of our ****ing job. Make peace with our existence, because we're not going away, no matter how much you want us to, or how much you try to change to game to screw us over. |
Bojo The Mighty
Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation
1302
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 16:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
TheEnd762 wrote:If someone can't be bothered to call in a dropship of their own, but, why would you use a dropship when there is a ladder? |
TheEnd762
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
110
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Posted - 2013.07.29 16:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:TheEnd762 wrote:If someone can't be bothered to call in a dropship of their own, but, why would you use a dropship when there is a ladder?
Because a ladder takes no skill. Ladders are also a big "hey, go up here" and "hey, if you're getting sniped, look up here" sign. Using a dropship allows you to get to places people might not think of looking. |
SteelDark Knight
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
69
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Posted - 2013.07.29 16:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
I agree 100%. |
N1ck Comeau
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
873
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 17:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sense Orbital strikes now land on these high areas that is a extremely effective way to counter it, Or fly a drop ship up there yourselves, you may say, "But he got forge gun i can't do it" Sneak around behind him, get teammates to distract him. |
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J Lav
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
156
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Posted - 2013.07.29 17:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
I think the problem at present is that the aforementioned perches are large enough that they provide cover from sniper fire, overlook objectives and can easily defend itself from a dropship. Yes it means they are not on an objective, but it allows 1 guy to be virtually unassailable.
This identifies 2 significant causes, 1st, the dropship has no defence from a forgegun on a roof top. 2nd It is too easy to cover an objective without being visible to countersniping. |
Oso Peresoso
RisingSuns
382
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 17:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
my squad was on a team getting stomped by a Team Players squad last week. The map we were on had the tiny city in it, the one where there's a dropship-accessible tower/roof over the building where objective B usually is. Anyway, ChicagoCubs4ever was up there proto-assault-forge-gunning us left and right. I managed to snipe him from the ground (it took 4 out of my five shots, with the last one at least being a headshot.). We still lost the match badly, but taking him down like that did make me feel like hot ****.
Basically, I'm not convinced this issue needs to be addressed as it currently exists. |
Sarducar Kahn
xCosmic Voidx The Superpowers
29
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Posted - 2013.07.29 17:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
N1ck Comeau wrote:Sense Orbital strikes now land on these high areas that is a extremely effective way to counter it, Or fly a drop ship up there yourselves, you may say, "But he got forge gun i can't do it" Sneak around behind him, get teammates to distract him.
It's not worth the risk, I have seen it done once, the guy he dropped failed and I killed his DS. |
TheEnd762
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
111
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 17:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
J Lav wrote:I think the problem at present is that the aforementioned perches are large enough that they provide cover from sniper fire, overlook objectives and can easily defend itself from a dropship. Yes it means they are not on an objective, but it allows 1 guy to be virtually unassailable.
This identifies 2 significant causes, 1st, the dropship has no defence from a forgegun on a roof top. 2nd It is too easy to cover an objective without being visible to countersniping.
99% of the time, if they can see you to shoot you, you can see them, if you know where to look. The other 1% of the time, it's a terrain/hit detection glitch, for which ladders are not the answer. A great sniper is hard to find, and a good sniper is at least hard to get to. That's just the nature of the beast. |
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows
782
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 17:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
I agree as well.
Funny (IMHO) Anecdote: Last night had a guy on top of one of the towers on Line Harvest. He was up there in his proto heavy raining death with his proto forge so I swapped to a sniper rifle.
Coordinated with two other snipers and 5-6 shots later, dead proto heavy (best part, I got the kill with a MLT Sniper Rifle Blueprint). |
shaman oga
Nexus Balusa Horizon DARKSTAR ARMY
370
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 17:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
I agree with this, all the buildings with platforms where you can land should be reachable with stairs or elevators, maybe both. Give multiple access to the buildings will prevent roof camping, you can have a tactical advantage but it should not last forever only because it's easy to defend. Roofs should give a momentaneus advantage over the enemies not a 100% safe zone. |
TheEnd762
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
111
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 17:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
Like I said, it's not 100% safe. Not even close. You put stairs and ladders everywhere, people are just going to snipe from the redzone. |
Bojo The Mighty
Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation
1306
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 18:34:00 -
[18] - Quote
TheEnd762 wrote:Like I said, it's not 100% safe. Not even close. You put stairs and ladders everywhere, people are just going to snipe from the redzone. People already do this and the thing about these buildings is that they are a commanding position over most objectives. And I'm not stopping you from using a DS to get up there. It would probably be much faster than climbing stairs, ladders, and elevators. But I've been with and against the squads that use the roof *exploit* and when you have a forge or two up there, nothing is going to touch you.
Anecdote: Jungian (RND) was up on Line Harvest skyscrapers with his Proto Sniper and Proto Logi, as well as a proto heavy + forge. I, took the time to countersnipe him. Took 7 minutes of my time because by the second hit with MLT sniper he was well back behind cover. I finally got him when two consecutive headshots actually landed without him moving. That was more of luck than skill because although I had placed those shots, my RoF would allow for him to move by the third shot. I was lucky there was a moments delay when he started to retreat to cover.
My point is coutner sniping is easier said than done. Luck is usually the prevailing force. Luck that they were sipping some water or distracted or hesitated in that given moment.
Give those buildings some various ground access points and see how well a ranged-only weapon strategy will go. Ladders, elevators, and stairs will only increase the spice and options in strategies. When you allow the CQC world to collide with the Long Range world, you have yourself a spicy meatball. |
TheEnd762
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
111
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 18:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
Try counter-forge gunning, or landing/crashing a dropship onto/into them. Or use a railgun installation. Or just ignore them and go about the rest of the match. Putting stairs or ladders up to there just means they'll have someone parked at the top, with that same proto forge gun trained on it, or maybe some REs.
I've dealt with this same issue. I either leave them be and try to deal with accessible enemies, or I spend the entire match forcing them to stay away from the edge, thus being unable to exploit their elevated position. I might not kill them, but they'll have a much harder time killing anyone else. |
Bojo The Mighty
Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation
1307
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 19:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
TheEnd762 wrote:Try counter-forge gunning, or landing/crashing a dropship onto/into them. Or use a railgun installation. Or just ignore them and go about the rest of the match. Putting stairs or ladders up to there just means they'll have someone parked at the top, with that same proto forge gun trained on it, or maybe some REs.
I've dealt with this same issue. I either leave them be and try to deal with accessible enemies, or I spend the entire match forcing them to stay away from the edge, thus being unable to exploit their elevated position. I might not kill them, but they'll have a much harder time killing anyone else. Yes, I'd love to so people sabotaging the rooftops, would make the game a lot more dynamic.
And do you feel a sense of fulfillment, a success if you will, by sitting there and non-lethally counter sniping? In all honesty that question is really determined by opinion; some people do find it fulfilling.
I personally don't but find fulfillment in shooting people in the back when they believe they are high above the danger. That is where my fulfillment lies and the only sane means of doing that is via ground access (as previous stated dropship charges are suicidal). These measures do not prevent you from non-lethal countersniping, and open me up to back-shooting. It's a win-win. |
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TheEnd762
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
111
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 19:19:00 -
[21] - Quote
No, because it robs those players of a well-earned position and already balanced strategy by giving easy access to people without the skill to get up there the same way. And let's be honest; the point of the stairs/ladder idea was never to ADD anything to the gameplay, it was to make things harder for snipers.
Yes, there are already people sniping from behind the redline. But if this is implemented and perches are compromised, a great deal MORE people will be doing it. People with actual skill, and it will be a LOT more frustrating.
People need to understand, you're never going to convince snipers to run headfirst into the fray, or to put down their sniper rifles and pick up ARs by breaking their tactics and strategies. |
R'adeh Hunt
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
316
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 19:24:00 -
[22] - Quote
If they can shoot down, you can shoot up...problem solved |
Jason Pearson
Seraphim Auxiliaries
2235
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 19:34:00 -
[23] - Quote
See a Four man heavy squad with rep nanohives down on a roof, you're not going to get rid of them and because they're killing you, they're the one with the OB, not you.
I feel there should be more accessibility to roof tops, Ladders, additional walkways and stairs would be nice. And to combat the "BUT THEY'LL USE THEM IN THE RED LINE" argument, don't place said structures in the red line :) |
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows
784
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 19:46:00 -
[24] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:TheEnd762 wrote:Try counter-forge gunning, or landing/crashing a dropship onto/into them. Or use a railgun installation. Or just ignore them and go about the rest of the match. Putting stairs or ladders up to there just means they'll have someone parked at the top, with that same proto forge gun trained on it, or maybe some REs.
I've dealt with this same issue. I either leave them be and try to deal with accessible enemies, or I spend the entire match forcing them to stay away from the edge, thus being unable to exploit their elevated position. I might not kill them, but they'll have a much harder time killing anyone else. Yes, I'd love to so people sabotaging the rooftops, would make the game a lot more dynamic. And do you feel a sense of fulfillment, a success if you will, by sitting there and non-lethally counter sniping? In all honesty that question is really determined by opinion; some people do find it fulfilling. I personally don't but find fulfillment in shooting people in the back when they believe they are high above the danger. That is where my fulfillment lies and the only sane means of doing that is via ground access (as previous stated dropship charges are suicidal). These measures do not prevent you from non-lethal countersniping, and open me up to back-shooting. It's a win-win.
Back-shooting defined:
Finally getting to the top of the tower, going straight past the RE that they didn't pull the detonator on (cause they were too tunnel-visioned to realize you were up there). Walking straight up behind them and leveling your TY-5 on the back of their head, taking a moment to recite Ezekiel 25:17, R1, watch their lifeless corpse ragdoll down off the tower and then following it, only activating the Inertial Damp mere meters before impact and moving on.....
At least, that is how I pictured it. |
TheEnd762
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
111
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 19:50:00 -
[25] - Quote
Jason Pearson wrote:See a Four man heavy squad with rep nanohives down on a roof, you're not going to get rid of them and because they're killing you, they're the one with the OB, not you.
I feel there should be more accessibility to roof tops, Ladders, additional walkways and stairs would be nice. And to combat the "BUT THEY'LL USE THEM IN THE RED LINE" argument, don't place said structures in the red line :)
No one is saying they'll use those structures in the redline. They'll just snipe and forge gun from the redline rather than the rooftop. |
Bojo The Mighty
Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation
1307
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 20:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
TheEnd762 wrote:No, because it robs those players of a well-earned position and already balanced strategy by giving easy access to people without the skill to get up there the same way. And let's be honest; the point of the stairs/ladder idea was never to ADD anything to the gameplay, it was to make things harder for snipers.
Yes, there are already people sniping from behind the redline. But if this is implemented and perches are compromised, a great deal MORE people will be doing it. People with actual skill, and it will be a LOT more frustrating.
People need to understand, you're never going to convince snipers to run headfirst into the fray, or to put down their sniper rifles and pick up ARs by breaking their tactics and strategies. Ok, take your eyes out of your scope and experience a viewing angle greater than 2 degrees.
The food chain works as follows At Long Range: Snipers > All other weapons At short Range: Snipers < All other weapons
Currently these roof tops only allow [ Snipers > All other weapons ]. That's it. You can't deal with these snipers in any other way than sniping and because they are dedicated and you are not you will fail. That's basic reasoning.
If we open up access to these roosts, then shorter range weapons have the ability to get the snipers and allow the food chain to become cyclic and thus balanced. If we allow this to get out of hand the only true formula will be [ Snipers > All Other Weapons ] and we will nerf them to kingdom come.
Snipers are not supposed to be invulnerable and your ideal world is that [ Sniper > Sniper > Everything else ] which is not fun. Their is a reason snipers suck at short range but if there is never a CQC scenario for snipers then Snipers will have be the official "I Win" button and we will all leave the game.
TLDR: Ladders + Stairs + Elevators + Roofs = ability to impose a weakness on snipers on rooftops that dominate the maps, when there currently is no weakness. |
Bojo The Mighty
Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation
1307
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 20:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
TheEnd762 wrote:Jason Pearson wrote:See a Four man heavy squad with rep nanohives down on a roof, you're not going to get rid of them and because they're killing you, they're the one with the OB, not you.
I feel there should be more accessibility to roof tops, Ladders, additional walkways and stairs would be nice. And to combat the "BUT THEY'LL USE THEM IN THE RED LINE" argument, don't place said structures in the red line :) No one is saying they'll use those structures in the redline. They'll just snipe and forge gun from the redline rather than the rooftop. The reason people use the rooftops is because they dominate the map. Redline areas don't have these dominating locations so how could they snipe as effectively from the redline? |
Oso Peresoso
RisingSuns
382
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 20:48:00 -
[28] - Quote
R'adeh Hunt wrote:If they can shoot down, you can shoot up...problem solved
Clearly the "high ground" was never a real advantage, merely a psychological one... |
Kharga Lum
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
96
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Posted - 2013.07.29 21:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
Certain rooftops are large enough to deploy tanks onto and spam down onto the ground.
Snipers with a flaylock pistol are trouble. The flaylock will flip your dropship over so they can prevent you from getting close and if you deploy onto a nearby roof they'll snipe you off of it. |
Canaan Knute
Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention
73
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Posted - 2013.07.29 21:23:00 -
[30] - Quote
Speaking from experience, when you see a group of enemy players sniping from a tower when only one or two are needed, that gives you a fairly significant advantage on the ground. |
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