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Addressing Building-Rooftop Warfare

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Bojo The Mighty Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 1300	Posted - 2013.07.29 05:59:00 - [1] - Quote It's come to everyone's attention that people fly dropships onto buildings; tall, medium, and the sorts, and use forge guns and sniper rifles from this great height advantage. This is a minor issue. One thing that's not cool is that these areas are accessible only by dropship. This means that in order to deal with these roof-dwellers, you must risk going up in a dropship and expend just as much, just to remove a thorn in your side. Now that doesn't sound a whole lotta wrong but it's easier said than done. It could take a dozed dropships to finally evade forges from that rooftop. However I sure as hell don't want to remove rooftop warfare from the game, that would be totally gremlin stunt. No, to address this weird minor issue that kind of paints the game a little more ugly, is by map development that increases availability of roofs by the ground. For example, on Communications I believe a small spiral staircase could give access to a catwalk on the first section of the large structure (D+E 5-7) On the upper portion of the structure, a couple ladders could lead down to the catwalks giving all-roof access to the building. This is just an example to portray means of increasing roof access and overall flavor. Thumbs up?
Bojo The Mighty Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 1300	Posted - 2013.07.29 06:17:00 - [2] - Quote Yun Hee Ryeon wrote: Also, I can't help feeling that it's kind of neat that there are areas only dropships can reach. They're otherwise the most long-suffering vehicle in the game. I'm going to have to agree with you there, but what if they brought Manus Peak (the mountain back) but better and there was a jutting only accessible to dropships I just think that industrial/urban structures should be easily accessible, but what if we allowed some geographical places in it's wake? Just make them not a super-dominating location.
Bojo The Mighty Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 1302	Posted - 2013.07.29 16:28:00 - [3] - Quote TheEnd762 wrote: If someone can't be bothered to call in a dropship of their own, but, why would you use a dropship when there is a ladder?
Bojo The Mighty Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 1306	Posted - 2013.07.29 18:34:00 - [4] - Quote TheEnd762 wrote: Like I said, it's not 100% safe. Not even close. You put stairs and ladders everywhere, people are just going to snipe from the redzone. People already do this and the thing about these buildings is that they are a commanding position over most objectives. And I'm not stopping you from using a DS to get up there. It would probably be much faster than climbing stairs, ladders, and elevators. But I've been with and against the squads that use the roof exploit and when you have a forge or two up there, nothing is going to touch you. Anecdote: Jungian (RND) was up on Line Harvest skyscrapers with his Proto Sniper and Proto Logi, as well as a proto heavy + forge. I, took the time to countersnipe him. Took 7 minutes of my time because by the second hit with MLT sniper he was well back behind cover. I finally got him when two consecutive headshots actually landed without him moving. That was more of luck than skill because although I had placed those shots, my RoF would allow for him to move by the third shot. I was lucky there was a moments delay when he started to retreat to cover. My point is coutner sniping is easier said than done. Luck is usually the prevailing force. Luck that they were sipping some water or distracted or hesitated in that given moment. Give those buildings some various ground access points and see how well a ranged-only weapon strategy will go. Ladders, elevators, and stairs will only increase the spice and options in strategies. When you allow the CQC world to collide with the Long Range world, you have yourself a spicy meatball.
Bojo The Mighty Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 1307	Posted - 2013.07.29 19:03:00 - [5] - Quote TheEnd762 wrote: Try counter-forge gunning, or landing/crashing a dropship onto/into them. Or use a railgun installation. Or just ignore them and go about the rest of the match. Putting stairs or ladders up to there just means they'll have someone parked at the top, with that same proto forge gun trained on it, or maybe some REs. I've dealt with this same issue. I either leave them be and try to deal with accessible enemies, or I spend the entire match forcing them to stay away from the edge, thus being unable to exploit their elevated position. I might not kill them, but they'll have a much harder time killing anyone else. Yes, I'd love to so people sabotaging the rooftops, would make the game a lot more dynamic. And do you feel a sense of fulfillment, a success if you will, by sitting there and non-lethally counter sniping? In all honesty that question is really determined by opinion; some people do find it fulfilling. I personally don't but find fulfillment in shooting people in the back when they believe they are high above the danger. That is where my fulfillment lies and the only sane means of doing that is via ground access (as previous stated dropship charges are suicidal). These measures do not prevent you from non-lethal countersniping, and open me up to back-shooting. It's a win-win.
Bojo The Mighty Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 1307	Posted - 2013.07.29 20:38:00 - [6] - Quote TheEnd762 wrote: No, because it robs those players of a well-earned position and already balanced strategy by giving easy access to people without the skill to get up there the same way. And let's be honest; the point of the stairs/ladder idea was never to ADD anything to the gameplay, it was to make things harder for snipers. Yes, there are already people sniping from behind the redline. But if this is implemented and perches are compromised, a great deal MORE people will be doing it. People with actual skill, and it will be a LOT more frustrating. People need to understand, you're never going to convince snipers to run headfirst into the fray, or to put down their sniper rifles and pick up ARs by breaking their tactics and strategies. Ok, take your eyes out of your scope and experience a viewing angle greater than 2 degrees. The food chain works as follows At Long Range: Snipers > All other weapons At short Range: Snipers < All other weapons Currently these roof tops only allow [ Snipers > All other weapons ]. That's it. You can't deal with these snipers in any other way than sniping and because they are dedicated and you are not you will fail. That's basic reasoning. If we open up access to these roosts, then shorter range weapons have the ability to get the snipers and allow the food chain to become cyclic and thus balanced. If we allow this to get out of hand the only true formula will be [ Snipers > All Other Weapons ] and we will nerf them to kingdom come. Snipers are not supposed to be invulnerable and your ideal world is that [ Sniper > Sniper > Everything else ] which is not fun. Their is a reason snipers suck at short range but if there is never a CQC scenario for snipers then Snipers will have be the official "I Win" button and we will all leave the game. TLDR: Ladders + Stairs + Elevators + Roofs = ability to impose a weakness on snipers on rooftops that dominate the maps, when there currently is no weakness.
Bojo The Mighty Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 1307	Posted - 2013.07.29 20:40:00 - [7] - Quote TheEnd762 wrote: Jason Pearson wrote: See a Four man heavy squad with rep nanohives down on a roof, you're not going to get rid of them and because they're killing you, they're the one with the OB, not you. I feel there should be more accessibility to roof tops, Ladders, additional walkways and stairs would be nice. And to combat the "BUT THEY'LL USE THEM IN THE RED LINE" argument, don't place said structures in the red line :) No one is saying they'll use those structures in the redline. They'll just snipe and forge gun from the redline rather than the rooftop. The reason people use the rooftops is because they dominate the map. Redline areas don't have these dominating locations so how could they snipe as effectively from the redline?
Bojo The Mighty Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 1307	Posted - 2013.07.29 23:16:00 - [8] - Quote Canaan Knute wrote: Speaking from experience, when you see a group of enemy players sniping from a tower when only one or two are needed, that gives you a fairly significant advantage on the ground. While that can be true, outnumbered does not always mean outmatched....protostomps cough !*
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1319	Posted - 2013.07.31 00:23:00 - [9] - Quote Thurak1 wrote: Jason Pearson wrote: See a Four man heavy squad with rep nanohives down on a roof, you're not going to get rid of them and because they're killing you, they're the one with the OB, not you. I feel there should be more accessibility to roof tops, Ladders, additional walkways and stairs would be nice. And to combat the "BUT THEY'LL USE THEM IN THE RED LINE" argument, don't place said structures in the red line :) Heavies dont have equipment slots so 4 heavies would not have 1 nanohive or a repair tool among them. Well a lot of heavies roam around with logis you know
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1319	Posted - 2013.07.31 00:30:00 - [10] - Quote Thurak1 wrote: The most simplistic tactic i have seen is to take a dropship fly really high up and drop a 4 man squad on the forgegunners head. He has a lot of issues seeing and shooting at you if you stay nice and high since those guns have no zoom and inaccurate sights to start with. Maybe you will kill him by simply having a squad mate land on him. No, this does not work. I've been there right by the heavies and some fool took a DS up to us like twice. Lost both. On Line Harvest, the sky scrapers and the DS flight ceiling are equal, meaning that you are only like what, 8 meters above them.

Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1319	Posted - 2013.07.31 00:31:00 - [11] - Quote TheEnd762 wrote: If we have to deal with ladders and stairways, we better get anti-infantry proxy mines. Or you can upgrade your Scan Precision and Range
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1320	Posted - 2013.07.31 00:42:00 - [12] - Quote TheEnd762 wrote: Those don't make a sniper rifle viable at -20m. Sure they do
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1364	Posted - 2013.08.05 02:07:00 - [13] - Quote WTF, I return and to what....conspiracies. Look! I do not want to: Nerf Snipers Nerf Forges Nerf Dropship Ceiling All I want is to bring people to mortality. Right now as it is, in order to counter said pesky forges+sniper, all you have suggested: Skill into snipers Skill into Forges Learn to fly dropships let's assume I don't already Spend hundreds of thousands of ISK on said dropships Those aren't reasonable answers damn it. I shouldn't have stoop to forges and snipers just to deal with forges and snipers, nor commit a thousand suicides attempting to fly up there. All I want to do is introduce snipers/forges who use the roofs to a little something called danger. Snipers in other maps actually have to risk a little (outside of redzone) when they get a perch. Their roost can be approached by anyone. It makes it at least mildly fair for people using shotguns, Mass drivers, assault rifles, SMG's, the list goes on. Too Long, I Did Not Read! Grow something snipers and actually get on par with everyone else and experience some actual risk. No one should have such a major advantage over another team merely by the height they obtain. Rooftop sniping = I Win button over everything but other snipers.
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1365	Posted - 2013.08.05 17:06:00 - [14] - Quote Timothy Reaper wrote: RINON114 wrote: I'll take the main point of rooftop access here and say: I said exclusive. As in, no building in existence can only be accessed from the roof. What we have now is akin to having the front entrance to a 25 storey building on the 25th floor. I thought the "problem" was people getting on top of the buildings, not inside. All I ask for is ladders and catwalks.....I just want to get rid of a need for a dropship just to get to one location.....
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1375	Posted - 2013.08.06 03:33:00 - [15] - Quote FLAYLOCK Steve wrote: Only a tank should be able to take out a tank? Well there goes all our av gear lol. Please refrain from posting anymore sir You agree then, that snipers should not have to be killed by another sniper
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1375	Posted - 2013.08.06 06:10:00 - [16] - Quote FLAYLOCK Steve wrote: Bojo The Mighty wrote: You agree then. snipers should not have to be killed by another sniper Um? I killedl snipers with any shot guns, nova knife, smg, tac ar and other weapons. I don't think a sniper should only be able to take out a other sniper. Its war, everyman has to figure out a way to survive. What's the problem with that? snipers should be killed by anything. Same with everything else. One thing can't be immune to a other. Tanks get taken out by tanks, forge guns, swarm launchers etc. Snipers get taken out by what can reach them. Snipers take out what they can. etc. Got a prohlem with that? You read that wrong but whatever. I think that snipers should not have to be killed only by another sniper. I think however, that sitting on a rooftop so that only other snipers can touch you is a detrimental point to the gameplay and attitude. I think that in order to expand gameplay and bring snipers to reality, that ground to roof access should be applied through ladders & catwalks & whatever. That's what I have a problem with. Let's assume I can't fly a DS worth two pieces of dog fish ovaries. How am I to deal with these people atop these high ass towers in an Ambush when I am skilled only in Shotguns and Nova Knives? Tough Luck? Now you have a problem you can not solve and can not ignore (because they are raping). If you are disagreeing with my suggestion, you are saying: "Well **** luck" "Kill yourself hundreds of times flying a DS up there, at least then you can say you tried" "Pull out a weapon you do not use and hope to god your Militia Sniper rifle can even scratch into their armor" If you are agreeing, then you are saying: "There should be some alternative means rather than a dropship to reach these high places, so people skilled into CQC weapons can reach places where they are needed" BTW Ladders and catwalks are not an "I Win Button". I LOL sir, I LOL.
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1381	Posted - 2013.08.06 16:45:00 - [17] - Quote TheEnd762 wrote: You mean like how Snipers are currently outgunned by pretty much anyone else, unless they're on a roof, along the edges of the map, or behind the redline? Our scout suits can be shredded in one short burst from an AR and our rifles are useless inside 100m or so. If you get to beg for some stupid mechanic to allow you to easily engage a sniper in his element, where's the mechanic for sniper to easily engage grunts down on the field, or shotgunners and nova knifers in CQC? AND WITHOUT HAVING TO CHANGE OUR WEAPON/SUIT/EQIUIPMENT OR USE TEAMWORK, SINCE THAT'S OUT OF THE QUESTION? Snipers are not supposed to be untouchable, yet you ask to keep it like that. Snipers are not outgunned by other guns, they are under-ranged by other guns. Sniping does not require teamwork so why should killing a sniper require teamwork. Your assumption is that all snipers have to be in Redzones or on top of buildings where people can not reach them. That's just scaredy-pus gameplay, going only where other people won't hurt you Also, it's a ladder for god's sake! It's not the end of the world! For all intents and purposes this would save snipers and forges a lot of money in risking dropships. The mechanic that allows snipers to easily engage grunts is already there, it's the fricken rooftops! Hypocrisy 101. PS: Get out of your scout suit if you are so concerned about ARs, Shotguns, and Knives Oh MY! No one has a scanning range of 100+ meters so slap on a heavy suit if you don't want to blow away. @ Timothy Reaper: I know you are a top-o-the line sniper but I am not and no one is on team chat, no one responds to LFS very often these days, and I have nowhere near a prototype sniper. I can fly a DS but I've seen many a blueberry fail miserably, including myself due to Proto forges. My suggestion for ladders and walkways, all it does is remove the need to risk a dropship for snipers and ARs alike.
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1381	Posted - 2013.08.06 18:08:00 - [18] - Quote The methods discussed were: Snipe Use a dropship Use an Orbital Ignore Those are the 4 ways to deal with snipers on a roof. No one has removed snipers from the redzone. Redzone sniping was only an issue when the map design made it such a favorable and dominating tactic. The only ways to deal with a redzone sniper is with a sniper rifle or go into there yourself, risk death (which I am fine with I did it all the time and made it back alive). If you can recall Codex Manus Peak, you would remember what the overpowering Redzone was like. Redzone sniping was fixed by map design. And no one is preventing anyone from redzone sniping. Now we are at the rooftops. The last "fix" for this issue was lowering the dropship flight ceiling, a terrible fix. It removed the roofs from gameplay and nerfed dropships. This rooftop sniping tactic is nothing new at all. In fact, the game mechanics make it so that with Prototype gear (forges + Suits + snipers), this rooftop sniping is a bulletproof strategy. No one gets up (forges just give a pop-o-the whistle and the DS is gone) and the roofs severely outrange all other weapons. It's a good strategy but the game allows that strategy to become overwhelming. Basically it makes me want to pick up forge guns and snipers and do the same because of the bulletproof success I see in it. But no plan should be so fool-proof. Basically, if you can't snipe and don't have an orbital, the best you can do is die multiple times trying to fly up there, because it is the only way. That is the problem, the only way up to those roofs is by taking an expensive and doomed elevator. Your DS will be shot down. But if there were ladders, it would increase the risk factor of sitting upon a rooftop. Ladders are not removing rooftops as sniper perches. Merely making it free to access them. Is that such a big problem? Is it really very concerning that someone would take five minutes of their time climbing a ladder to the roof of a skyscraper, just to kill a sniper, who could just jump off the building as soon as they were compromised? And ladders are no precious ball of bubble rap, people get sniped and blown off of ladders all the time. A sniper can still have a solid rooftop strategy, it's just that now they have to consider the threat of CQC. Infantry have to consider the threat of snipers, snipers have to consider the threat of infantry, that is only fair and right. Ladders offer no guarantees but they offer an alternative (making multiple) access to rooftops. A matter of map design can make the game more interesting, adding 3 dimensions for all players. There should always be two readily viable (meaning you shouldn't have to earn 1500 WP) options to deal with long range threats because making only one option viable detracts from the gameplay. It's how like if the AR was the only viable weapon in the game, a lot of people would stop playing dust.
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1381	Posted - 2013.08.06 18:16:00 - [19] - Quote RINON114 wrote: Edit: Might I also clarify that I have recently started using this tactic because of this discussion, and although it's always fun to kill unsuspecting targets, it would be a lot better if I had to worry about someone shooting me in the back. Fixed
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1605	Posted - 2013.08.28 17:49:00 - [20] - Quote Tall buildings do not give purpose to dropships We who fly do not consider people who use DS only to get to rooftops to be pilots.

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