Can I get a tl;dr?

Can I get a tl;dr?

TL;DR:

Tiericide good, current imbalanced model bad

The second way and one I prefer is to remove proto (and adv, you aren't forgotten) from the game entirely, this levels the playing field and allows player skill to become the most important factor, followed shortly by fitting choices. Alongside the removal you would have to make sure the bonuses on the variants become worth it and ensure that a suit is best utilized in its intended role, so the basic suits become the tier 1 equivalent, able to perform the logi or assault role with equal effectiveness (using the current variants). Allowing the logi and assault suits to become the best in their given role, hopefully avoiding another caldari logi fiasco.

As to the question I began my post with the only answer I can think of is that it's CCP business model, by throwing such huge tier advantages out there it encourages you to splurge on aurum gear and boosters to stay competitive, which is just bad game design IMO.

The second way and one I prefer is to remove proto (and adv, you aren't forgotten) from the game entirely, this levels the playing field and allows player skill to become the most important factor, followed shortly by fitting choices. Alongside the removal you would have to make sure the bonuses on the variants become worth it and ensure that a suit is best utilized in its intended role, so the basic suits become the tier 1 equivalent, able to perform the logi or assault role with equal effectiveness (using the current variants). Allowing the logi and assault suits to become the best in their given role, hopefully avoiding another caldari logi fiasco.

As to the question I began my post with the only answer I can think of is that it's CCP business model, by throwing such huge tier advantages out there it encourages you to splurge on aurum gear and boosters to stay competitive, which is just bad game design IMO.

I would like to see this done combined with extra basic suits added each with its own role bonus like the frigates of eve. You'll have your ewar one support one assault one and tankier one etc to give variety this game sorely needs without having the current proto or gtfo tiers. the role bonuses would encourage people to get to level five of the suit but still keep them effective at the lower levels.

Its an MMO, not a standard FPS. Also, aurum only lets you get things sooner that you can already get with SP and ISK. Know the game.

Its an MMO, not a standard FPS. Also, aurum only lets you get things sooner that you can already get with SP and ISK. Know the game.

This game is as much a MMO as the newer Call of Duty games. Yes, I know what a MMO is, used to be a hardcore MMO gamer and this game have very few MMO elements in it Mary.

When they talked about the game, before it came out, it sounded like an MMO, but to be fair, this is just a normal shooter which reminds me ABIT of battlefield heroes mechanisms. There you could advance and get better gear too and do abit better, didnt make it an MMO.

This standard shooter atm.

Just curious, not disagreeing with your post at all, but how would they monetize if you didn't need SP or aurum gear to unlock awesome gear?

Mary'd.

(New term, it means when someone comes in and tries to educate people despite said people already knowing what they're talking about. Make it happen bunnies)

This game is not an MMO. It is more of a FPSRPG.

First mistake is saying that proto w/o HP mods is better than basic with HP mods. You're wrong. Basic, Advanced, and Proto suits of the same type, without HP mods, have the exact same EHP.

The Eve side tiericide only applied ships within the same level class.

Example... Amarr
Basic Amarr Battleship reqs for Armageddon, Apocalypse, and Abaddon: Spaceship Command 4, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlcruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 1 (The differerence in the old skill reqs were Armageddon: Amarr Battleship 1, Apocalypse: Amarr Battleship 3, and Abaddon: Amarr Battleship 5)

Amarr Navy Issue Faction reqs for Armageddon (NI) and Apocalypse (NI) : Spaceship Command 4, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlecruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 2

Amarr related Pirate Faction Battleships reqs for Nightmare: Spaceship Command 4, Amarr and Caldari Frigate 3, Amarr and Caldari Destroyer 3, Amarr and Caldari Cruiser 3, Amarr and Caldari Battlecruiser 3, and Amarr and Caldari Battleship 1

Amarr Black Ops Battleship reqs for Redeemer: Spaceship Command 5, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlcruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 5, Science 5, Navigation 5, Warp Drive Operation 5, Jump Drive Operation 5, Jump Drive Calibration 4, Electronics 4, Cloaking 4, Black Ops 1

Amarr Marauder Battleship reqs for Paladin: Spaceship Command 5, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlcruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 5, Gunnery 2, Weapon Upgrades 5, Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5, Science 1, Engineering 2, Energy Grid upgrades 5, Marauders 1

So, as you see, the tiericide was rather minor as far as skill reqs for a class of battleship were unified with minor adjustments to ship attributes.

Firstly, you can kill any other suit with a milita rifle. Second, I'm quite guilty of running proto suits, though not usually Duvolle guns. CCP is experimenting with different design doctrines, and they have a lot of work ahead of them. They have recently increased defensive options, like rechargers. If rechargers or armor repairers are too good, everyone will stack them. If they make small tweaks to milita gear, the could make it easier on new players, but make easier isk farming for everyone. They want to promote consumption of ISK and AUR, but who would bother paying for minor upgrades? There are typical stacking penalties in Eve, but the are not applied to shield or armor extenders. Even if they do something to discourage the stacking of EHP mods (run speed or hit box size for shields) everyone would focus on quick recovery or gank power. They have a cool ISK system to discourage proto overuse, but it doesn't work well enough, and will fall apart when I can dump Eve ISK or supplies into my Dust wallet or inventory. CCP knows this, and I doubt they know how to solve that one yet either. Regardless, my Exile is still deadly.

Ignore the numbers: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pet88sKPbMV7G4PqvgRySV1Df5kRyioMIaiSABFIwII/edit?usp=sharing

There, I just created a bunch of variation.


About your idea:
Rename Basic suits (From the list above) as T1.
Assault and Logi are T2, where they aren't just better than T1, they are specialized.
T1 is a mesh of a logi and an assault, can do both but a bit worse.

Have T1 and T2 gear, T2 gear is more CPU/PG intensive and has greater downsides in addition to the upside.

First mistake is saying that proto w/o HP mods is better than basic with HP mods. You're wrong. Basic, Advanced, and Proto suits of the same type, without HP mods, have the exact same EHP.

The Eve side tiericide only applied ships within the same level class.

Example... Amarr
Basic Amarr Battleship reqs for Armageddon, Apocalypse, and Abaddon: Spaceship Command 4, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlcruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 1 (The differerence in the old skill reqs were Armageddon: Amarr Battleship 1, Apocalypse: Amarr Battleship 3, and Abaddon: Amarr Battleship 5)

Amarr Navy Issue Faction reqs for Armageddon (NI) and Apocalypse (NI) : Spaceship Command 4, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlecruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 2

Amarr related Pirate Faction Battleships reqs for Nightmare: Spaceship Command 4, Amarr and Caldari Frigate 3, Amarr and Caldari Destroyer 3, Amarr and Caldari Cruiser 3, Amarr and Caldari Battlecruiser 3, and Amarr and Caldari Battleship 1

Amarr Black Ops Battleship reqs for Redeemer: Spaceship Command 5, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlcruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 5, Science 5, Navigation 5, Warp Drive Operation 5, Jump Drive Operation 5, Jump Drive Calibration 4, Electronics 4, Cloaking 4, Black Ops 1

Amarr Marauder Battleship reqs for Paladin: Spaceship Command 5, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlcruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 5, Gunnery 2, Weapon Upgrades 5, Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5, Science 1, Engineering 2, Energy Grid upgrades 5, Marauders 1

So, as you see, the tiericide was rather minor as far as skill reqs for a class of battleship were unified with minor adjustments to ship attributes.

Old prereqs were lvl's 1,2 and 3 for T1 ships within a class, not 1, 3 and 5, but other than that it's rather spot on. Dusts system, while similar, really isn't compatible with the concept. It would be like having a fast version, a tanky version, and a high damage version of each suit which were at the same level rather than the STD/ADV/PRO suits we have now.

This made me laugh. I couldn't believe my eyes when I read it. Had to read it three times to get over my disbelief that it actually has to be explained to someone.

Learn your acronyms. It is an MMO as MMO means "Massively Multiplayer Online" Where it's lacking is the RPG part, RPG meaning "Role Playing Game". I'm sure we all know FPS means "First Person Shooter", vehicles being the TPS (Third Person Shooter) exception. So Dust 514 is currently a MMOFPS with RPG elements meaning "Massively Multiplayer Online First Person Shooter with Role Playing Game elements".

I agree, but.. A lot of players have to be rewarded, they need to feel like they're advancing up the ladder and gaining new things, who wants to see passive stats and such increase if there is nothing displaying what's going on? In COD and Battlefield, you have the ability to unlock new weapons and modifications, you're achieving things, in DUST, you unlock a rifle, suit and modules, you're done, nothing fancy :/

Honestly I just want to see a system that has such a large DPS and EHP gap between players, it's unnatural and game breaking in a FPS.

Slot count differences and tiered mods with passive skill bonuses have that effect. If we had single suits in a catagory with helpful yet not game breaking bonuses it wouldn't be as much of an issue, but that breaks the whole intended economic effect of wearing proto all the time, not that it ever actually works out that way.

What effect is that? I'm tired and can't remember/ be bothered to look it up.

The EHP and DPS gap you just mentioned.

Just curious, not disagreeing with your post at all, but how would they monetize if you didn't need SP or aurum gear to unlock awesome gear?

I'd be happy with tiericide if they made drops suits cost the original 375K from the 2011 trailer.... THAT WOULD BE AMAZING!

My suggestion about Dropsuits was why bother with racial ones.

Why not have three corporate dropsuits per race per frame, each representing a corporations within the empire making dropsuits for mercs, they fill as spectrum of roles for light, medium, heavy variants of each frame of dropsuit. Each would have a unique design reflecting the corp and racial group

E,G- Kaalakiota Light Medium Frace (Recon) Ishukone Standard Medium Frame ( Assault), Lai Dai Heavy Assault Frame (Heavy Assault)

I don't want to read what you wrote because its long and im very tired, but based off your title I would say..... No? Tiers are the only way veterans can feel like their time has payed off. Being equal with everyone despite playing five times more is just a horrible feeling. Like..... whats the point? If I want to play equal with every other nooblet coming into the game ill go play COD or BF3.

Old prereqs were lvl's 1,2 and 3 for T1 ships within a class, not 1, 3 and 5, but other than that it's rather spot on. Dusts system, while similar, really isn't compatible with the concept. It would be like having a fast version, a tanky version, and a high damage version of each suit which were at the same level rather than the STD/ADV/PRO suits we have now.

This game is not an MMO by any means. Unless you think CoD and BF3 are MMOs lol. You obviously don't know what your talking about.

But please reply and tell me how this is an MMO. I would LOVE to hear that.

I strongly agree with approach and idea. There's a reason most FPS don't allow you to increase base damage and HP (juggernaut and stopping power, anyone?). And honestly, I don't buy the MMO (or even the RPG) argument. Dust is just as much a lobby shooter as COD/BF/Halo/etc.

That being said, I don't see them actually doing this. However, there still are things to consider for balancing. The three primary issues in my opinion are (in no particular order):

1 - Passive skill bonuses are too large (mostly just for damage and HP related skills)
2 - Modules are too effective/strong
3 - Proto allows for the stacking too many mods

My suggestion for #1 and #2 would be to just reduce the numbers across the board. As an example, I think the base shield/armor skills give a +5% per level, I'd make it 1-2%. Complex shield mods have 66 HP, change it to around half of that.

For #3, instead of reducing the number of overall slots, I'd spread them out. By this I mean keep the overall numbers the same, but introduce a third slot (medium?) and syphon away some highs and lows to fill that new slot. So the basic idea is a proto suit would be something like 2/2/2 (h/m/l) or 3/1/2 or 1/1/4 etc. As for what mods fit into what slot type, that would need to be redone completely. Here's a basic rundown of what I'm thinking:

High - All damage and HP increasing mods
Medium - Non-direct combat mods like stamina, stealth, scan radius, equipment related mods
Low - Shield and armor effectiveness mods like rechargers, repairers, damage type resistance, etc

They should then also introduce a whole bunch of new mods like things that effect how well your equipment works, or mods that for example take up two medium slots but give an extra high slot in return.

People are probably going to **** on me for using this work/phrase/idea, but what this essentially does is makes modules more like perks that help you slightly in certain ways, rather than making you extremely dominant in any particular way. This way, you keep the same number of slots, keep the deep customization, but reduce the stockpiling of single mod types like shields/damage. You're still going to get progression and an advantage over noobs, but it will just be an advantage that you actively need to use with skill rather than just relying on huge passive numbers.

I strongly agree with approach and idea. There's a reason most FPS don't allow you to increase base damage and HP (juggernaut and stopping power, anyone?). And honestly, I don't buy the MMO (or even the RPG) argument. Dust is just as much a lobby shooter as COD/BF/Halo/etc.

That being said, I don't see them actually doing this. However, there still are things to consider for balancing. The three primary issues in my opinion are (in no particular order):

1 - Passive skill bonuses are too large (mostly just for damage and HP related skills)
2 - Modules are too effective/strong
3 - Proto allows for the stacking too many mods

My suggestion for #1 and #2 would be to just reduce the numbers across the board. As an example, I think the base shield/armor skills give a +5% per level, I'd make it 1-2%. Complex shield mods have 66 HP, change it to around half of that.

For #3, instead of reducing the number of overall slots, I'd spread them out. By this I mean keep the overall numbers the same, but introduce a third slot (medium?) and syphon away some highs and lows to fill that new slot. So the basic idea is a proto suit would be something like 2/2/2 (h/m/l) or 3/1/2 or 1/1/4 etc. As for what mods fit into what slot type, that would need to be redone completely. Here's a basic rundown of what I'm thinking:

High - All damage and HP increasing mods
Medium - Non-direct combat mods like stamina, stealth, scan radius, equipment related mods
Low - Shield and armor effectiveness mods like rechargers, repairers, damage type resistance, etc

They should then also introduce a whole bunch of new mods like things that effect how well your equipment works, or mods that for example take up two medium slots but give an extra high slot in return.

People are probably going to **** on me for using this work/phrase/idea, but what this essentially does is makes modules more like perks that help you slightly in certain ways, rather than making you extremely dominant in any particular way. This way, you keep the same number of slots, keep the deep customization, but reduce the stockpiling of single mod types like shields/damage. You're still going to get progression and an advantage over noobs, but it will just be an advantage that you actively need to use with skill rather than just relying on huge passive numbers.

I disagree with the idea that the factors individually are problematic. Rather it's the combination of factors. Being able to add 22 or 66 HP is inconsequential alone, but add that to a passive bonus to base HP and percentage to the mod itself, then add the fact that you can stack that in a proto suit 2-3 more times than in a standard and yes, it becomes a problem. The issue is then exasperated by the length on time needed to get to that level. If it only took a few weeks to get a variety of proto mods, enough to fill a suit, then the performance issues would be a non issue.

I disagree with the idea that the factors individually are problematic. Rather it's the combination of factors. Being able to add 22 or 66 HP is inconsequential alone, but add that to a passive bonus to base HP and percentage to the mod itself, then add the fact that you can stack that in a proto suit 2-3 more times than in a standard and yes, it becomes a problem. The issue is then exasperated by the length on time needed to get to that level. If it only took a few weeks to get a variety of proto mods, enough to fill a suit, then the performance issues would be a non issue.

Personally I'd like to see STD and ADV suits brought up to where there was a 1 slot difference between tiers and a similar balance brought between module tiers. Also perhaps going from 1/3/5 unlock levels for suits, 1/2/4 would be more suitable, the lowered levels reflecting the closer capabilities of the suits, with the basic frames getting one general but not game breaking bonus, and the specialized frames adding a second task specific one, thus giving lvl 5's a purpose without being a mandate to be competitive.

Dust is different from CoD type FPSs. Dust has a player base that's playing the same game together, on dedicated servers, set up and maintained by the game developer, that provides a persistent digital environment to said players. Unlike other CoD like games where any given match is hosted on one of the player's consoles. So, Dust is an MMO.

The SP progression system is a standard RPG element, so is the persistent universe. So Dust has RPG elements.

And finally Dust is a FPS, TPS for vehicles.

So simple even you should understand it.

I agree. But how bout just more suits. Like basic, basic+, advanced, advenced+, proto. 5 levels.

Yes we are developing a new matchmaking system which adapts to your skill level, so as you get better you should be put into more challenging battles.

Having said that we don't think matchmaking has a place for all battles, this is New Eden after all. We are working on plans to expand both faction warfare and planetary conquest to more players, hopefully providing a more "gloves off" battle for those that like that sort of thing.

Just to clarify by skill level I don't mean skill points, I mean actual battle effectiveness. In practical terms this could be due to your gear, your skill points, the design of your fittings or choice of weapons, whether you are playing in a squad, whether you use voice comms, whether you are using your preferred input device, how good your internet connection is, your situational awareness of the battle field, how good you are at aiming etc etc.

The true test of good matchmaking will be if the prediction on how effective you and your team will be against another can adapt to a lot of these difficult to track variables. Right now we are experimenting with a few different ways of doing this and the simulations are looking promising so far.

To the point about scaling rewards, we actually do adjust the reward payout based on the gear used in battle. This doesn't vary that much at the moment because we have quite mixed battles but in theory if the matchmaking can produce higher tier battles then I would expect to see higher tier payouts. This is something we will probably have to review once the new system is in place.

The game is considered by CCP because it's set in the same persistent single shared of a MMORPG . I'm guessing that's why they call it one.

Anyway some devs said that the matchmaking won't be based on gear.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1076674#post1076674





https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1075690#post1075690


Also a part of a quote by CCP Etrene said : Improving overall gear balancing so there is no "best" choice and there are tactical choices to make

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=988205#post988205

That does not make it an MMO. Trust me I'm almost done with college to become a game designer.

I like the idea, been thinking of something similar myself, but not to this detail. +1



Aesthetic items and color schemes, everyone loves that stuff!
You know, different color schemes or skins, stuff you can add to your dropsuit or your in your merc quarters or on vehicles, things that allow you to customize your merc and its stuff.

Bet people would pay a lot for that, and no one would be getting an advantage for it, there'd be no need to waste time trying to "balance" it to existing items and whatnot.



I really like that idea too.
I mean it makes more sense with them being mercenaries and all, have corporations "sponsor" them, thus the Isk gain would depend on how well you did in a match or something, plus it would help add variation.

So here's something that's been bugging me for a while, and which I've put a bit of thought into, "why does Dust have tiers, when it's older sibling went through something called tiercide? Tiercide (from what I've gathered, I don't play eve) aimed to completely rebalance pretty much everything so that no ship was fundamentally better than another ship, just better at a given role. This approach meant tier 1 ships (the racial basic suit in dust) were the general ships that could be used in various roles, while the tech 2 ships (the specialised variants, assault, logi etc) were very good at one role but not so much at others. This means that every ship has a place, and none are simply rendered obsolete by moving up a skill level. This is a very good idea, it means that everything has the potential to be used and nothing should be ignored because the next ship in line is better in every way. We need the same thing in dust.

Ignore the numbers: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pet88sKPbMV7G4PqvgRySV1Df5kRyioMIaiSABFIwII/edit?usp=sharing

There, I just created a bunch of variation.


About your idea:
Rename Basic suits (From the list above) as T1.
Assault and Logi are T2, where they aren't just better than T1, they are specialized.
T1 is a mesh of a logi and an assault, can do both but a bit worse.

Have T1 and T2 gear, T2 gear is more CPU/PG intensive and has greater downsides in addition to the upside.

So T2 Light would be Scout/Pilot and T2 Heavy would be Commando/Sentinel?

Technically, we were never supposed to leave beta with all our skill points to begin with.
The system of vets killing the game for new players is unbelievably true.

Even if you're a vet, you make a new character, and leave Academy, you don't stand a rat's ass of a chance. It's nasty dude.
But in reality.... the huge problem for new players is that they simply CANNOT escape the protobears.

They just can't.

Even if they join up with a corp, it makes no difference. It will be months and months, before they can be solidly competitive gear-wise.
This is perfectly fine for any game with the mmo moniker.
The difference between every other mmo and Dust is... newbies can escape to the PvE world to train and be prepared for PvP.
In Dust, you can't. You HAVE to pull your pants down, and lay face down, ass up, and take it for MONTHS, before you're able to fight back effectively. It's not like that in game like CoD or BF3, where you can pick up a gun, and down anyone no matter how long they've played. Dust has chosen to implement elements from both genres, but it's badly mixed. You can't have only pvp, with characters that get dramatically stronger than others, and then tell the new players that they have NO CHOICE but to sit there and get there ass handed to them, month after month after month, and do NOTHING else.

Tell a new player to just take it, and he's going to laugh at you.

So we need to get some PvE into this game... otherwise the OP's post is going to be the most sound way to retain new players.
Fk how long the veterans have played, the newbies HAVE to be capable of killing you, or doing something else until they can. :(

I think a good way to solve the proto stomp without removing suits or a huge overhaul of mechanics is to give all suits the same module as the proto counterpart but seperate them through CPU/PG. This lowers the HP difference by a lot, and give basic suits a lot of diversity right from the get go. Another option is to remove the basic and ADV suit, and just make a singular suit across race and role, and the diversity would come only from how you build the suit. Along with this increasing the damage weapons do and lowering ADS movements speed, and increasing X, Y sensitivity to make the game deadlier and closer to the gameplay of most other FPS games, so bob already has a skill advantage, but also keep the uniqueness of the fitting system.

i've also suggested this before too... we need to tighten the obscene powergap that increased module slots creates when you go up to proto gear.

At the very least make it so adv is one slot less and std is 2 slots less.

example:

Cal Logi Proto: 5/4
Cal Logi Adv: 5/3
Cal Logi Std: 4/3

Given the right amount of CPU/PG that would be much closer to how the weapons are done.

Off the top of my head if we got rid of the tiers I would think you would have to give high sp vets modules / perks like better scanning or more range on rep tool and nanohive; an active shield they could activate for like 1-3 secs etc.

Dont want to think too much about it though - unless CCP is going to change course.

One of the problems with DUST is that we have no equivalent to low sec and null sec, like they do in EVE.

In EVE high security levels protect the lower level guys. Lower security levels give the upper level guys, with much better equipment and SP, more opportunity to reap greater rewards for the greater risk of lower security space.

In DUST, we are all in the same big pot of guys trying to make a buck.

I'm not sure how to give a similar balancing mechanism in DUST.

There aren't enough of us to cover the whole EVE universe.

Making more tiers outside of the academy might help. It could be based on SP or equipment levels. Of course there would also be wide open tiers where anyone could fight with any type of equipment.

Perhaps the reward system could be used to stratify folks a bit better? Jobs in high security space might offer lower ISK rewards and jobs in low security space might offer higher ISK rewards. Expensive proto gear couldn't be replaced easily if proto gear can't make money. Penalize SP for losing too many clones to discourage people from playing militia gear in these matches.

Perhaps a list of battles could be generated which show the security level for each battle. Before each game starts a player might wish to decide which security level he could fight in. Proto gear, or recent academy graduates could be banned from high security and low security jobs, respectively. This would make sense because an EVE corp would not want to pay the higher costs for proto armed mercs (who have higher overhead) in high security space, where the jobs would be much easier (CONCORD pretty much keeps things quiet and prevents big, expensive wars).

Make fewer NULL cannons, CRUs, available clones, drop areas and turrets in low sec, so people have to be more aggressive and more likely to use better suits.

Penalize players who use up a lot of clones if they wear militia gear in low sec space by reducing their SP.

Maybe make hackable objects have different difficulties in different security types of space, so only proto suits can hack harder objectives and only lower tier suits can hack easier objectives.

In any case, I hope they can figure something out. We are eating our young in pubstomping matches.

Oh, and fix the AFK issue. That would help, too.


Munch

CCP isn't going to base matchmaking on skill points or gear levels , it is stated in my previous post . As for the security levels , it is represented by the 3 game tabs. Instant action is in High sec planets and both factional war and PC is in low sec. The matchmaking will be based on player skill . I think the idea is since proto players are usually get a lot of kills,wps, wins , etc they will be matched together more likely, and if some player that usually runs standard gear and plays really well a lot of the time, they will most likely be matched with the proto players. And lastly , I think they will balance the tiers so one won't be better than the other.

If the tiers are flattened out as you're supposing, then there will be a lot of, "If tier two isn't better than tier one, and tier three isn't better than tier one or two, then there's no point in skilling up."

If the tiers are flattened out as you're supposing, then there will be a lot of, "If tier two isn't better than tier one, and tier three isn't better than tier one or two, then there's no point in skilling up."

So you feel that though I've been constantly participating in, gaining practical experience in, and beta testing, MMOs since 1999, I'm ignorant. Your own arrogance laced ignorance astounds. You should know your target before attempting to offend and insult. If I were to assume based on your statements, I would guess you were between 10 and 14 when I started my foray into MMOs. But to assume would be folley as you could have started earning your degree in your late 30s which might put you at around the same age as myself. Now that isn't to say that age makes a difference, but I do have a good 16 years of comprehensive adult experience behind me.

Here. Maybe this will help.

A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multi-player video game which supports large numbers of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played over the Internet. Many games have at least one persistent world.

MMOGs can enable players to cooperate and compete with each other on a large scale, and sometimes to interact meaningfully with people around the world. They include a variety of game play types, representing many video game genres.

This describes Dust.

After thought: After a little research, I've reached a conclusion that CoD type games are MMOs in the barest sense as they use the internet to connect players to each other. In my mind they're still not true MMOs as they lack dedicated developer maintained servers and a "persistent world".

Touch my hard earned proto gear and die. I earned it thru blood, sweat, and a lot of cursing. I am all about leveling the field but touch another mans gear and your asking for it. Do you feel lucky punk do you

Honestly... the solution is not to nerf proto gear, it is to buff std/adv gear.

Give std and adv gear the same number of slots as proto gear, and maybe a 5% bump in CPU/PG.

It would level the playing field a lot while still giving a sense of progression.

And there you go, I said it was as much an MMO as the newer cod or battlefield. Just the simplest thing like interacting or questing with NPC's in open space area'd are not present in Dust(yes drones, but we heard about them for a year or two, if not more now). Instead of telling him off Shijima, go google Battlefield Heroes and compare that mechanisms of that game to how dust is. By all means, reading your 3-4 posts, your conclusions about an MMO describes most of the mechanisms of Battlefield Heroes and that game is not a f'kin MMO.

Either works, as I've said before, removing or nerfing proto is just an idea. What this post is really about is removing/narrowing the gap between tiers.

Ignore the numbers: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pet88sKPbMV7G4PqvgRySV1Df5kRyioMIaiSABFIwII/edit?usp=sharing

There, I just created a bunch of variation.


About your idea:
Rename Basic suits (From the list above) as T1.
Assault and Logi are T2, where they aren't just better than T1, they are specialized.
T1 is a mesh of a logi and an assault, can do both but a bit worse.

Have T1 and T2 gear, T2 gear is more CPU/PG intensive and has greater downsides in addition to the upside.

I think you misunderstand. IMO, and by definition, Dust is an MMO while CoD and BF are barely MMOs. When I said they're not true MMOs I was only referring to CoD like games that hold their matches on a player's console rather than on a dedicated server with a "persistent world".

What he said.

To me, it's simple: Increase the ISK cost of Prototype level gear to a point that significantly prohibits the continuous, uninterrupted use of said gear.

I've put many, many hours into this game, so I could finally have access to the Prototype level gear that gives me a decided advantage on the battlefield. Take that away and I (along with a huge chunk of the foundation of the already dwindling player base I suspect) would immediately stop playing the game.

Is Prototype level gear a "crutch" for me? No, it is not. I've been playing FPS games for 15 years and have always had the level of skill to consistently dominate on a level playing field. To me, proving how much skill I have (in a game with horrible hit detection and shooting mechanics nonetheless) on an even playing field doesn't keep me engaged. Like someone else said, there needs to be that carrot to chase, and the carrot is earning the ability to use gear that is superior to all other gear in an obvious way.

However, using this gear should be something that is done in moderation or only in certain situations. Much like one's decision to use a fitting they have equipped with their limited supply of officer level weapons, the decision to run Proto-gear should come with the realization that running it indefinitely is not sustainable. Right now, I can run proto-gear 100% of the time and still make money or, at worst, tread water with my wallet, because my deaths in any given match total 0, 1 or 2 about 95% of the time.

I think those players who have put enough time into this game to get to Prototype level gear should get to enjoy the advantages of said gear, when they want to use it and take the hit to their wallet. My Gallente gk.0 fit right now costs about 120k ISK per fit. That may seem like a lot to some players, but I don't think it is nearly enough. I honestly think it should cost me 300k ISK to run that fit, meaning that even if I play an entire match without dying, I would still be losing 50-100k ISK on an average Ambush match. If I did happen to die a few times, I would be going 1 million ISK in the hole. If that were the case, a lot more players would embrace/be forced to use Advanced/Standard/Militia level gear a reasonable amount of the time.

Touch my hard earned proto gear and die. I earned it thru blood, sweat, and a lot of cursing. I am all about leveling the field but touch another mans gear and your asking for it. Do you feel lucky punk do you

To me, it's simple: Increase the ISK cost of Prototype level gear to a point that significantly prohibits the continuous, uninterrupted use of said gear.

I've put many, many hours into this game, so I could finally have access to the Prototype level gear that gives me a decided advantage on the battlefield. Take that away and I (along with a huge chunk of the foundation of the already dwindling player base I suspect) would immediately stop playing the game.

Is Prototype level gear a "crutch" for me? No, it is not. I've been playing FPS games for 15 years and have always had the level of skill to consistently dominate on a level playing field. To me, proving how much skill I have (in a game with horrible hit detection and shooting mechanics nonetheless) on an even playing field doesn't keep me engaged. Like someone else said, there needs to be that carrot to chase, and the carrot is earning the ability to use gear that is superior to all other gear in an obvious way.

However, using this gear should be something that is done in moderation or only in certain situations. Much like one's decision to use a fitting they have equipped with their limited supply of officer level weapons, the decision to run Proto-gear should come with the realization that running it indefinitely is not sustainable. Right now, I can run proto-gear 100% of the time and still make money or, at worst, tread water with my wallet, because my deaths in any given match total 0, 1 or 2 about 95% of the time.

I think those players who have put enough time into this game to get to Prototype level gear should get to enjoy the advantages of said gear, when they want to use it and take the hit to their wallet. My Gallente gk.0 fit right now costs about 120k ISK per fit. That may seem like a lot to some players, but I don't think it is nearly enough. I honestly think it should cost me 300k ISK to run that fit, meaning that even if I play an entire match without dying, I would still be losing 50-100k ISK on an average Ambush match. If I did happen to die a few times, I would be going 1 million ISK in the hole. If that were the case, a lot more players would embrace/be forced to use Advanced/Standard/Militia level gear a reasonable amount of the time.

They tried balancing titans by ISK in eve, it didn't work. Balancing by ISK is short sighted and fundamentally flawed.

Why didn't it work? What is the fundamental flaw? Did it just come down to the biggest corps funding the purchases for their players, with the smaller corps not being able to afford to do the same?

Why didn't it work? What is the fundamental flaw? Did it just come down to the biggest corps funding the purchases for their players, with the smaller corps not being able to afford to do the same?

Titans cost huge amounts of resources and ISK and take months to build. When they were introduced it was believed that there would never be more than 5 in the game due to their huge cost, this was reason enough to give them huge EHP and DPS, and most well known their doomsday weapons, when they were introduced they were capable of annihilating entire fleets by themselves. In the years since their introduction they have gone through nerf after nerf and they still aren't balanced properly, the only effective counter to a Titan blob is another Titan blob, do you see the parralel with proto gear in dust here? The only effective way to counter proto gear is to field proto gear, but I disgress.

The fundamental flaw in a game like dust (and eve) is that your balancing on current standards and numbers, it was believed that the cost would limit the number of titans produced, this has been proved wrong over and over again, plays will find a way to get enough resources and will build as many as them as they can, hell Titan proliferation has reached the point that there are are freaking mining titans for Christ sake!!!!

We are going to see the exact same thing in dust, proto gear may seem expensive now but as the ISK fountains in dust increase the cost will become a non factor to all but the poorest Merc's, we're already seeing that with EON's FarmVille operation going on in molten Heath right now, they're raking in huge amounts of ISK a day, and they can afford to run proto gear at a loss effectively forever. This is only going to get worse as dust's and Eve's economies merge, once corps and Merc's start getting eve funding this game will become PROTO OR GTFO, we will see an almost total decrease in player retention as new players quite understandably go "**** this ******, unbalanced game".

Balancing by ISK is terrible because it doesn't account for the future, it's based on the present, it may seem to work for a while but over time the flaws in it will become increasingly obvious and there will be cries for it to be fixed, from the exact same people who used to support this system, and valuable developer time will be wasted on something that should never have made it off the drawing board. CCP themselves have acknowledged what a terrible idea balancing by ISK was and have stated that they regret it, yet we seem to be seeing the exact same thing in dust.

What, no one realized that we have tiers because it's a f2p game and the company that makes it has to make money? You guys seriously don't see this and talk about balancing through 'tiericide'? Good luck I guess.

What, no one realized that we have tiers because it's a f2p game and the company that makes it has to make money? You guys seriously don't see this and talk about balancing through 'tiericide'? Good luck I guess.

What, no one realized that we have tiers because it's a f2p game and the company that makes it has to make money? You guys seriously don't see this and talk about balancing through 'tiericide'? Good luck I guess.

Besides removing tiers won't mean that people will stop buying BPO's and boosters, in fact BPO's MIT become more useful if tiercide was implemented.

This game is not an MMO. It is more of a FPSRPG.

Removal of tiers - aka how to dumb the game down like BF3/COD where everyone has the same equipment and setup because it works

Removal of tiers - aka how to dumb the game down like BF3/COD where everyone has the same equipment and setup because it works

"Now bob our decently skilled FPS'er tries his best but the damage of the big bad proto's weapon combined with his huge HP advantage is insurmountable, throughout the rest of the game bob tries and tries but he just can't win."

Proto gear is somewhat like titans when you look at it, the only effective counter is to field proto gear yourself

Fits should provide an advantage that augments your play style, not make you invincible to anyone who isn't carrying the same meta as you.

a large segment of gear still remains worthless once you reach a certain point

I'm curious - is there anyone here who agrees with the current system and is at least familiar to how tiers work in EVE? Reading this thread it seems like two types of people disagree with tiericide - people who currently protostomp (to be expected naturally) and people who don't seem to fully grasp what OP and others are suggesting, which I can only presume is because they haven't seen it in action.

Though the criticism that because various mechanics are so borked and there is only pvp split across 3 game modes, stands I guess - if there is nothing to do, there is nothing to specialise in other than 'kill moar people betta!'. I mean protostomping isn't just end game - it is the game. What else does it offer?

Though I think the point is, we should be looking to future, not looking to make the best lobby shooter there is.

You make some good points cross, and I agree with them to an extent.

First off, you right corp squads will always stomp pubbies, no question or issue there, it's a good thing, teamwork and tactics should carry the day. "bob" was a bit if a poor example but it was the best I could come up with at the time.

Secondly, the comparison with titans and proto gear was meant more in comparison of blob on blob and man on respectively, the best way to counter a Titan blob is with another Titan blob (or so I am given to understand) and on a 1 on 1 basis the best way to deal with a proto suit is another proto suit. I'm aware that proto suits are fa from invincible will still die, it's just the HP/DPS advantage they have with virtually no drawbacks is ridiculous.

As for emulating BF3 and COD, I meant that in regard to to EHP levels, with a similar line across all players other factors become more important, rather than just HP/DPS levels, engagements in those games feel more more satisfying and exciting than firefights in dust, don't misunderstand me, I don't want to see dust become a clone of either of those games in anyway, I'm just pointing out how neither game provides players with HP advantages and how it might be better for dust to tone down the numbers you can achieve here or balance it in some other way.

As for what you said about the various tiercide ideas I'm in agreement with you to an extent there, I know my own ideas are probably not the best and the other ideas I've seen are interesting I'm not 100% sure whether they're the best that they could be. What's important is that CCP takes some measures to reduce the EHP and DPS gap between tiers that exist right now. If someone wants to run around with as much health as a heavy on a assault suit let him, he better suffer in the DPS department though. An advantage with a drawback is balanced, two advanatges with no drawbacks isn't. Current prototype players are effectively heavies without the mobility penalty, that needs to change.

And I have to agree with you, dust lacks the variety needed to insure that tiercide would work best, I'm not demanding for a change now, I just want to the principle of what I'm proposing being executed in rebalances and new content additions.

List of ship types in EVE

• Assault Ships
• Battlecruisers
• Battleships
• Black Ops
• Capital Industrial Ships
• Carriers
• Command Ships
• Covert Ops Ships
• Cruisers
• Destroyers
• Dreadnoughts
• Electronic Attack Ships
• Exhumers
• Freighters
• Frigates
• Heavy Assault Ships
• Heavy Interdictors
• Industrial Command Ships
• Industrial Ships
• Interceptors
• Interdictors
• Jump Freighters
• Logistics Ships
• Marauders
• Mining Barges
• Motherships
• Pirate Faction Ships
• Recon Ships
• Strategic Cruisers
• Titans
• Transport Ships
• Unique Ships

The point is that the game needs to offer value for roles other than killing, even support roles on the field currently are often able to be viewed in terms of how they effect killing as a once off, picture the response of the average Dust player to seeing the Minmatar Logi function like the Scimitar, let alone the introduction of an entire market tab for completely non-combat dropsuits.

Tiericide when conducted in an environment not yet mature and complex enough to support it simply becomes flattening that strips the game of diversity rather than adding nuanced complexity as it can in EVE. Dust need more in quite a few ways before a solid look can be taken at doing this without the net result being to, more or less, water down the game and the aspects which make it unique.

0.02 ISK
Cross

Necro on this tread cuz I've been looking at Eve and Dust lacks some, many, things from its mama and this might be one of those. Loving much of the rich experience New Eden has to offer through Eve; Dust in the other hand is just a plain and vague experience of it, a mere distasteful silhouette of its companion. Make them more alike CCP, thereGÇÖs so many things that can be implemented and would make the game even more fuc**ng awesome, please just don't underestimate console players. These things could make an impact, a great one in balance and gameplay, and if devs are worried for taking out the black suits.. come on do some research: nice looking things should be sold for money or really hard to obtain.

Skills, not gear.

Say it with me GÇö SKILLS NOT GEAR, SKILLS NOT GEAR!

Im just here sitting in my mlt scout suit killing proto heavys with my remote explosive..

*edit*

ive killed plenty of proto players with a mlt ar
... mlt sniper
... mlt anything\

I don't see why bob was having problems against another player who's twitch skills are not the best.

bob needs to learn the game a bit like i did...
when he is use to it

bob needs to wait for match making or go afk for a year
and while his player will passively farm up sp
he can come back at any time

want to know the difference between a proto shield and a std shield ?

1 ar bullet.
(just saying)

This is the essence of the issue for me.

There is ample evidence to indicate that militia gear is more that capable of competing with proto gear, and for this reason i believe the call for tiericide in DUST is misdirected. The real concern is over the NPE and pubstomps, and these are definitely critical issues for DUST right now.

Tiericide is not the answer to this. Tiericide results in a loss of identity for DUST, and results in making it more like every other shooter out there. RND, Lotis, Red Star, etc., etc., would be equally capable of pubstomping after tiericide. The reason for this is that DUST is constructed in a way such that teamwork and communication is a a massive force-multiplier and is genuinely OP.

And that is exactly as it should be.

We need a solution different than tiericide.

Skills, not gear.

Say it with me GÇö SKILLS NOT GEAR, SKILLS NOT GEAR!

sure skill bonuses have a large affect but gear is still pretty significant, the more slots you have the more things for skill bonuses to affect after all.

"Bob is a decently skilled FPS'er, played his share of games and has just left the academy, since bob has done his research he's come out of the academy with a basic suit and some basic modules and weapons, he has just under 300HP. Now on his first match bob runs into a big bad proto player, this guy is has over 300HP before he he even puts any mods on, now our big bad proto player isn't very good at FPS's, he's an EVE player who is utterly hopeless at twitch shooters but who in the hope he can get better has diligently grinded away at the game till he got his proto suit and modules. Now bob our decently skilled FPS'er tries his best but the damage of the big bad proto's weapon combined with his huge HP advantage is insurmountable, throughout the rest of the game bob tries and tries but he just can't win."

I would agree is basic/enhanced shields weren't so crappy.

I think there should be even more tiers. TF2 is lame and classism is the best way to cause violence, and I get paid when violence happens.

I know the game, I've been playing it since the start of January, I know aurum let's you get stuff sooner, but that's not the point. The point is that the ridiculous DPS and EHP gap between what a new player gets and what someone who's dumped a load of sp into suits and weapons if ridiculous, no other successful FPS does that.