DUST Search - The removal of tiers

gbghg wrote:

BGoat wrote:

gbghg wrote:

They tried balancing titans by ISK in eve, it didn't work. Balancing by ISK is short sighted and fundamentally flawed.

Why didn't it work? What is the fundamental flaw? Did it just come down to the biggest corps funding the purchases for their players, with the smaller corps not being able to afford to do the same?

Titans cost huge amounts of resources and ISK and take months to build. When they were introduced it was believed that there would never be more than 5 in the game due to their huge cost, this was reason enough to give them huge EHP and DPS, and most well known their doomsday weapons, when they were introduced they were capable of annihilating entire fleets by themselves. In the years since their introduction they have gone through nerf after nerf and they still aren't balanced properly, the only effective counter to a Titan blob is another Titan blob, do you see the parralel with proto gear in dust here? The only effective way to counter proto gear is to field proto gear, but I disgress.

The fundamental flaw in a game like dust (and eve) is that your balancing on current standards and numbers, it was believed that the cost would limit the number of titans produced, this has been proved wrong over and over again, plays will find a way to get enough resources and will build as many as them as they can, hell Titan proliferation has reached the point that there are are freaking mining titans for Christ sake!!!!

We are going to see the exact same thing in dust, proto gear may seem expensive now but as the ISK fountains in dust increase the cost will become a non factor to all but the poorest Merc's, we're already seeing that with EON's FarmVille operation going on in molten Heath right now, they're raking in huge amounts of ISK a day, and they can afford to run proto gear at a loss effectively forever. This is only going to get worse as dust's and Eve's economies merge, once corps and Merc's start getting eve funding this game will become PROTO OR GTFO, we will see an almost total decrease in player retention as new players quite understandably go "**** this ******, unbalanced game".

Balancing by ISK is terrible because it doesn't account for the future, it's based on the present, it may seem to work for a while but over time the flaws in it will become increasingly obvious and there will be cries for it to be fixed, from the exact same people who used to support this system, and valuable developer time will be wasted on something that should never have made it off the drawing board. CCP themselves have acknowledged what a terrible idea balancing by ISK was and have stated that they regret it, yet we seem to be seeing the exact same thing in dust.


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BGoat The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 23	Posted - 2013.08.12 21:52:00 - [1] - Quote To me, it's simple: Increase the ISK cost of Prototype level gear to a point that significantly prohibits the continuous, uninterrupted use of said gear. I've put many, many hours into this game, so I could finally have access to the Prototype level gear that gives me a decided advantage on the battlefield. Take that away and I (along with a huge chunk of the foundation of the already dwindling player base I suspect) would immediately stop playing the game. Is Prototype level gear a "crutch" for me? No, it is not. I've been playing FPS games for 15 years and have always had the level of skill to consistently dominate on a level playing field. To me, proving how much skill I have (in a game with horrible hit detection and shooting mechanics nonetheless) on an even playing field doesn't keep me engaged. Like someone else said, there needs to be that carrot to chase, and the carrot is earning the ability to use gear that is superior to all other gear in an obvious way. However, using this gear should be something that is done in moderation or only in certain situations. Much like one's decision to use a fitting they have equipped with their limited supply of officer level weapons, the decision to run Proto-gear should come with the realization that running it indefinitely is not sustainable. Right now, I can run proto-gear 100% of the time and still make money or, at worst, tread water with my wallet, because my deaths in any given match total 0, 1 or 2 about 95% of the time. I think those players who have put enough time into this game to get to Prototype level gear should get to enjoy the advantages of said gear, when they want to use it and take the hit to their wallet. My Gallente gk.0 fit right now costs about 120k ISK per fit. That may seem like a lot to some players, but I don't think it is nearly enough. I honestly think it should cost me 300k ISK to run that fit, meaning that even if I play an entire match without dying, I would still be losing 50-100k ISK on an average Ambush match. If I did happen to die a few times, I would be going 1 million ISK in the hole. If that were the case, a lot more players would embrace/be forced to use Advanced/Standard/Militia level gear a reasonable amount of the time.
BGoat The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 25	Posted - 2013.08.12 22:43:00 - [2] - Quote gbghg wrote: They tried balancing titans by ISK in eve, it didn't work. Balancing by ISK is short sighted and fundamentally flawed. Why didn't it work? What is the fundamental flaw? Did it just come down to the biggest corps funding the purchases for their players, with the smaller corps not being able to afford to do the same?
BGoat The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 26	Posted - 2013.08.12 23:12:00 - [3] - Quote gbghg wrote: BGoat wrote: gbghg wrote: They tried balancing titans by ISK in eve, it didn't work. Balancing by ISK is short sighted and fundamentally flawed. Why didn't it work? What is the fundamental flaw? Did it just come down to the biggest corps funding the purchases for their players, with the smaller corps not being able to afford to do the same? Titans cost huge amounts of resources and ISK and take months to build. When they were introduced it was believed that there would never be more than 5 in the game due to their huge cost, this was reason enough to give them huge EHP and DPS, and most well known their doomsday weapons, when they were introduced they were capable of annihilating entire fleets by themselves. In the years since their introduction they have gone through nerf after nerf and they still aren't balanced properly, the only effective counter to a Titan blob is another Titan blob, do you see the parralel with proto gear in dust here? The only effective way to counter proto gear is to field proto gear, but I disgress. The fundamental flaw in a game like dust (and eve) is that your balancing on current standards and numbers, it was believed that the cost would limit the number of titans produced, this has been proved wrong over and over again, plays will find a way to get enough resources and will build as many as them as they can, hell Titan proliferation has reached the point that there are are freaking mining titans for Christ sake!!!! We are going to see the exact same thing in dust, proto gear may seem expensive now but as the ISK fountains in dust increase the cost will become a non factor to all but the poorest Merc's, we're already seeing that with EON's FarmVille operation going on in molten Heath right now, they're raking in huge amounts of ISK a day, and they can afford to run proto gear at a loss effectively forever. This is only going to get worse as dust's and Eve's economies merge, once corps and Merc's start getting eve funding this game will become PROTO OR GTFO, we will see an almost total decrease in player retention as new players quite understandably go "** this ****, unbalanced game". Balancing by ISK is terrible because it doesn't account for the future, it's based on the present, it may seem to work for a while but over time the flaws in it will become increasingly obvious and there will be cries for it to be fixed, from the exact same people who used to support this system, and valuable developer time will be wasted on something that should never have made it off the drawing board. CCP themselves have acknowledged what a terrible idea balancing by ISK was and have stated that they regret it, yet we seem to be seeing the exact same thing in dust. Thanks for taking the time to explain what happened with the Titans in Eve. It's unfortunate that ISK is not a reliable method of balancing the proliferation of Prototype gear, given it is 1 of only 2 elements that are accumulated in Dust (ISK and SP).