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gbghg L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 2783	Posted - 2013.07.24 23:47:00 - [1] - Quote So here's something that's been bugging me for a while, and which I've put a bit of thought into, "why does Dust have tiers, when it's older sibling went through something called tiercide? Tiercide (from what I've gathered, I don't play eve) aimed to completely rebalance pretty much everything so that no ship was fundamentally better than another ship, just better at a given role. This approach meant tier 1 ships (the racial basic suit in dust) were the general ships that could be used in various roles, while the tech 2 ships (the specialised variants, assault, logi etc) were very good at one role but not so much at others. This means that every ship has a place, and none are simply rendered obsolete by moving up a skill level. This is a very good idea, it means that everything has the potential to be used and nothing should be ignored because the next ship in line is better in every way. We need the same thing in dust. It is my personal belief that the current existence of proto and advanced gear is killing this game, in two main ways. The first is in the matter of game balance, the fact that players are running around with such hugely different EHP is ridiculous, it's one thing giving different health levels to different classes, they come with their own sets of advantages and disadvantages (movement speed, type of weapon, heavies, scouts ect), that's fine, done right it adds diversity to the battlefield, makes it more a TF2 than a COD, we all agree its a good thing. When you can get a HP difference of 400-500 within the same class something is just messed up. As things stand this sort of thing happens a lot. "Bob is a decently skilled FPS'er, played his share of games and has just left the academy, since bob has done his research he's come out of the academy with a basic suit and some basic modules and weapons, he has just under 300HP. Now on his first match bob runs into a big bad proto player, this guy is has over 300HP before he he even puts any mods on, now our big bad proto player isn't very good at FPS's, he's an EVE player who is utterly hopeless at twitch shooters but who in the hope he can get better has diligently grinded away at the game till he got his proto suit and modules. Now bob our decently skilled FPS'er tries his best but the damage of the big bad proto's weapon combined with his huge HP advantage is insurmountable, throughout the rest of the game bob tries and tries but he just can't win." Tell me, how many times have you had this happen to you? A lot I'm guessing if you don't spend all your time running advanced or proto gear. This is fundamentally broken, it's one thing to have something like that in a MMORPG, they normally give you a range of options to deal with the problem or simply avoid it, dust doesn't, it's a lobby shooter, sure there's gear based matchmaking but there's a whole load of good arguments against that, just as there are some very good reasons for it. Proto gear is somewhat like titans when you look at it, the only effective counter is to field proto gear yourself, and their stats are out of proportion compared to everything else, and given the sheer number of people around running proto, soon it's going to be proto and nothing else, it already is in PC if you actually want to win the battle, and you'll run into at least 1 proto player in any given pub match. What do you think it will be like for new players a year down the line, when a large proportion of the player base is running proto gear? Would you want to play a game where you die repeatedly over and over because the other guy has simply put more time (or money) into the game? No one will want to play that, the game will truly be dead. And that's what I meant by player retention problems, having people running around who have vast amounts more HP than you simply because they played the game longer is unbalanced and poor game design, it's simply incompetence, or part of your business model but we'll get to that later. Lets look at the 2 big titles in console FPS gaming, and the two benchmarks dust will always be compared against, COD whatever sequel idiots are still buying and battlefield 3/4. Neither of those 2 games allow players to increase their health, they can take less damage from things like grenades etc, but they don't have people who can absorb more bullets than someone else, this allows skill, not HP level to be the main factor in who wins the firefight. Dust needs to be brought in line with this. Now I just want to say that the fitting system is probably my favourite thing about dust, and I love being able to tinker with my fits to get as much HP out of them as possible, I'm not advocating that we remove the EHP modules but just that the ridiculous discrepancy we see between standard and proto gear is gone for good. Fits should provide an advantage that augments your play style, not make you invincible to anyone who isn't carrying the same meta as you. And to those who use the argument that the ISK cost is the reason for these advantages, well they found out the hard way with titans that balancing by ISK doesn't work. Now I propose we go about settling this in one of two ways, the first is a major EHP nerf, bring them down so they offer an advantage, but one a standard weapon could still take down reasonably quickly, the same goes for weapons. But the root problem remains, a large segment of gear still remains worthless once you reach a certain point, and spending the most ISK gives you an inherent advantage. The second way and one I prefer is to remove proto (and adv, you aren't forgotten) from the game entirely, this levels the playing field and allows player skill to become the most important factor, followed shortly by fitting choices. Alongside the removal you would have to make sure the bonuses on the variants become worth it and ensure that a suit is best utilized in its intended role, so the basic suits become the tier 1 equivalent.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 2783	Posted - 2013.07.24 23:47:00 - [2] - Quote The second way and one I prefer is to remove proto (and adv, you aren't forgotten) from the game entirely, this levels the playing field and allows player skill to become the most important factor, followed shortly by fitting choices. Alongside the removal you would have to make sure the bonuses on the variants become worth it and ensure that a suit is best utilized in its intended role, so the basic suits become the tier 1 equivalent, able to perform the logi or assault role with equal effectiveness (using the current variants). Allowing the logi and assault suits to become the best in their given role, hopefully avoiding another caldari logi fiasco. As to the question I began my post with the only answer I can think of is that it's CCP business model, by throwing such huge tier advantages out there it encourages you to splurge on aurum gear and boosters to stay competitive, which is just bad game design IMO.
First Prophet Jaguar Empire 694	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:00:00 - [3] - Quote Can I get a tl;dr?
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 736	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:02:00 - [4] - Quote First Prophet wrote: Can I get a tl;dr? TL;DR: Tiericide good, current imbalanced model bad
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 2787	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:04:00 - [5] - Quote First Prophet wrote: Can I get a tl;dr? Lazy, tl;dr I think proto is killing the game and that dust should go through its own tiercide, placing a greater importance on the variant of the item rather than the meta level.
First Prophet Jaguar Empire 694	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:04:00 - [6] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: First Prophet wrote: Can I get a tl;dr? TL;DR: Tiericide good, current imbalanced model bad k. Thx.
BatKing Deltor Granite Mercenary Division 153	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:05:00 - [7] - Quote Did a trial of eve, I looked at the skills and with the first level of like everything you get a heck of a lot to use and the next ship ( teir II ) required level 5 and you don't get anything between 1-5, just a passive bonus.
Adelia Lafayette DUST University Ivy League 135	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:06:00 - [8] - Quote gbghg wrote: The second way and one I prefer is to remove proto (and adv, you aren't forgotten) from the game entirely, this levels the playing field and allows player skill to become the most important factor, followed shortly by fitting choices. Alongside the removal you would have to make sure the bonuses on the variants become worth it and ensure that a suit is best utilized in its intended role, so the basic suits become the tier 1 equivalent, able to perform the logi or assault role with equal effectiveness (using the current variants). Allowing the logi and assault suits to become the best in their given role, hopefully avoiding another caldari logi fiasco. As to the question I began my post with the only answer I can think of is that it's CCP business model, by throwing such huge tier advantages out there it encourages you to splurge on aurum gear and boosters to stay competitive, which is just bad game design IMO. I would like to see this done combined with extra basic suits added each with its own role bonus like the frigates of eve. You'll have your ewar one support one assault one and tankier one etc to give variety this game sorely needs without having the current proto or gtfo tiers. the role bonuses would encourage people to get to level five of the suit but still keep them effective at the lower levels.
Jammeh McJam NEW AGE EMPIRE 11	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:09:00 - [9] - Quote gbghg wrote: The second way and one I prefer is to remove proto (and adv, you aren't forgotten) from the game entirely, this levels the playing field and allows player skill to become the most important factor, followed shortly by fitting choices. Alongside the removal you would have to make sure the bonuses on the variants become worth it and ensure that a suit is best utilized in its intended role, so the basic suits become the tier 1 equivalent, able to perform the logi or assault role with equal effectiveness (using the current variants). Allowing the logi and assault suits to become the best in their given role, hopefully avoiding another caldari logi fiasco. As to the question I began my post with the only answer I can think of is that it's CCP business model, by throwing such huge tier advantages out there it encourages you to splurge on aurum gear and boosters to stay competitive, which is just bad game design IMO. This wouldn't be a bad idea, to define different people there could be a way to paint your suits, then everyone wouldn't look like clones... oh no wait, we are clones!
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 2788	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:12:00 - [10] - Quote Adelia Lafayette wrote: gbghg wrote: The second way and one I prefer is to remove proto (and adv, you aren't forgotten) from the game entirely, this levels the playing field and allows player skill to become the most important factor, followed shortly by fitting choices. Alongside the removal you would have to make sure the bonuses on the variants become worth it and ensure that a suit is best utilized in its intended role, so the basic suits become the tier 1 equivalent, able to perform the logi or assault role with equal effectiveness (using the current variants). Allowing the logi and assault suits to become the best in their given role, hopefully avoiding another caldari logi fiasco. As to the question I began my post with the only answer I can think of is that it's CCP business model, by throwing such huge tier advantages out there it encourages you to splurge on aurum gear and boosters to stay competitive, which is just bad game design IMO. I would like to see this done combined with extra basic suits added each with its own role bonus like the frigates of eve. You'll have your ewar one support one assault one and tankier one etc to give variety this game sorely needs without having the current proto or gtfo tiers. the role bonuses would encourage people to get to level five of the suit but still keep them effective at the lower levels. I didn't go into detail because quite frankly I'm not a game dev, it's one am in the morning, I'm trying to play dust in between writing this thread, and I quite frankly have no ideal ideas on the matter. This post was just to get a though I've had on my chest off it and to tell CCP the direction I think this game needs to move in, but those sound like good things.

Mary Sedillo BetaMax. CRONOS. 181	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:14:00 - [11] - Quote Its an MMO, not a standard FPS. Also, aurum only lets you get things sooner that you can already get with SP and ISK. Know the game.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Auxiliaries CRONOS. 2132	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:15:00 - [12] - Quote I agree, but.. A lot of players have to be rewarded, they need to feel like they're advancing up the ladder and gaining new things, who wants to see passive stats and such increase if there is nothing displaying what's going on? In COD and Battlefield, you have the ability to unlock new weapons and modifications, you're achieving things, in DUST, you unlock a rifle, suit and modules, you're done, nothing fancy :/
Angus McBeanie Seraphim Auxiliaries CRONOS. 39	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:21:00 - [13] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: Its an MMO, not a standard FPS. Also, aurum only lets you get things sooner that you can already get with SP and ISK. Know the game. This game is as much a MMO as the newer Call of Duty games. Yes, I know what a MMO is, used to be a hardcore MMO gamer and this game have very few MMO elements in it Mary. When they talked about the game, before it came out, it sounded like an MMO, but to be fair, this is just a normal shooter which reminds me ABIT of battlefield heroes mechanisms. There you could advance and get better gear too and do abit better, didnt make it an MMO. This standard shooter atm.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 2788	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:22:00 - [14] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: Its an MMO, not a standard FPS. Also, aurum only lets you get things sooner that you can already get with SP and ISK. Know the game. I know the game, I've been playing it since the start of January, I know aurum let's you get stuff sooner, but that's not the point. The point is that the ridiculous DPS and EHP gap between what a new player gets and what someone who's dumped a load of sp into suits and weapons if ridiculous, no other successful FPS does that.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 1245	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:32:00 - [15] - Quote Just curious, not disagreeing with your post at all, but how would they monetize if you didn't need SP or aurum gear to unlock awesome gear?
Kane Fyea DUST University Ivy League 1437	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:32:00 - [16] - Quote Angus McBeanie wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Its an MMO, not a standard FPS. Also, aurum only lets you get things sooner that you can already get with SP and ISK. Know the game. This game is as much a MMO as the newer Call of Duty games. Yes, I know what a MMO is, used to be a hardcore MMO gamer and this game have very few MMO elements in it Mary. When they talked about the game, before it came out, it sounded like an MMO, but to be fair, this is just a normal shooter which reminds me ABIT of battlefield heroes mechanisms. There you could advance and get better gear too and do abit better, didnt make it an MMO. This standard shooter atm. This game is not an MMO. It is more of a FPSRPG.
Monty Mole Clone Shiv M 32	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:36:00 - [17] - Quote an easy fix for this is to give each suit its own bonus or two, like that other game.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 2788	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:36:00 - [18] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Just curious, not disagreeing with your post at all, but how would they monetize if you didn't need SP or aurum gear to unlock awesome gear? No idea, probably why CCP went with it in the first place, and why this posts suggestions won't ever be implemented, still wanted to write it though. Cosmetic crap like LoL perhaps? They could still probably sell boosters to help with the grind.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Auxiliaries 2139	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:51:00 - [19] - Quote Mary'd. (New term, it means when someone comes in and tries to educate people despite said people already knowing what they're talking about. Make it happen bunnies)
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 824	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:54:00 - [20] - Quote I'd be happy with tiericide if they made drops suits cost the original 375K from the 2011 trailer.... THAT WOULD BE AMAZING!

gbghg L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 2789	Posted - 2013.07.25 00:55:00 - [21] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: Mary'd. (New term, it means when someone comes in and tries to educate people despite said people already knowing what they're talking about. Make it happen bunnies) Lmao, love it.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 275	Posted - 2013.07.25 01:12:00 - [22] - Quote First mistake is saying that proto w/o HP mods is better than basic with HP mods. You're wrong. Basic, Advanced, and Proto suits of the same type, without HP mods, have the exact same EHP. The Eve side tiericide only applied ships within the same level class. Example... Amarr Basic Amarr Battleship reqs for Armageddon, Apocalypse, and Abaddon: Spaceship Command 4, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlcruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 1 (The differerence in the old skill reqs were Armageddon: Amarr Battleship 1, Apocalypse: Amarr Battleship 3, and Abaddon: Amarr Battleship 5) Amarr Navy Issue Faction reqs for Armageddon (NI) and Apocalypse (NI) : Spaceship Command 4, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlecruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 2 Amarr related Pirate Faction Battleships reqs for Nightmare: Spaceship Command 4, Amarr and Caldari Frigate 3, Amarr and Caldari Destroyer 3, Amarr and Caldari Cruiser 3, Amarr and Caldari Battlecruiser 3, and Amarr and Caldari Battleship 1 Amarr Black Ops Battleship reqs for Redeemer: Spaceship Command 5, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlcruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 5, Science 5, Navigation 5, Warp Drive Operation 5, Jump Drive Operation 5, Jump Drive Calibration 4, Electronics 4, Cloaking 4, Black Ops 1 Amarr Marauder Battleship reqs for Paladin: Spaceship Command 5, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlcruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 5, Gunnery 2, Weapon Upgrades 5, Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5, Science 1, Engineering 2, Energy Grid upgrades 5, Marauders 1 So, as you see, the tiericide was rather minor as far as skill reqs for a class of battleship were unified with minor adjustments to ship attributes.
Cat Merc BetaMax. CRONOS. 3556	Posted - 2013.07.25 01:19:00 - [23] - Quote Ignore the numbers: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pet88sKPbMV7G4PqvgRySV1Df5kRyioMIaiSABFIwII/edit?usp=sharing There, I just created a bunch of variation. About your idea: Rename Basic suits (From the list above) as T1. Assault and Logi are T2, where they aren't just better than T1, they are specialized. T1 is a mesh of a logi and an assault, can do both but a bit worse. Have T1 and T2 gear, T2 gear is more CPU/PG intensive and has greater downsides in addition to the upside.
Luk Manag of Terror 55	Posted - 2013.07.25 01:20:00 - [24] - Quote Firstly, you can kill any other suit with a milita rifle. Second, I'm quite guilty of running proto suits, though not usually Duvolle guns. CCP is experimenting with different design doctrines, and they have a lot of work ahead of them. They have recently increased defensive options, like rechargers. If rechargers or armor repairers are too good, everyone will stack them. If they make small tweaks to milita gear, the could make it easier on new players, but make easier isk farming for everyone. They want to promote consumption of ISK and AUR, but who would bother paying for minor upgrades? There are typical stacking penalties in Eve, but the are not applied to shield or armor extenders. Even if they do something to discourage the stacking of EHP mods (run speed or hit box size for shields) everyone would focus on quick recovery or gank power. They have a cool ISK system to discourage proto overuse, but it doesn't work well enough, and will fall apart when I can dump Eve ISK or supplies into my Dust wallet or inventory. CCP knows this, and I doubt they know how to solve that one yet either. Regardless, my Exile is still deadly.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 275	Posted - 2013.07.25 01:20:00 - [25] - Quote Kane Fyea wrote: Angus McBeanie wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Its an MMO, not a standard FPS. Also, aurum only lets you get things sooner that you can already get with SP and ISK. Know the game. This game is as much a MMO as the newer Call of Duty games. Yes, I know what a MMO is, used to be a hardcore MMO gamer and this game have very few MMO elements in it Mary. When they talked about the game, before it came out, it sounded like an MMO, but to be fair, this is just a normal shooter which reminds me ABIT of battlefield heroes mechanisms. There you could advance and get better gear too and do abit better, didnt make it an MMO. This standard shooter atm. This game is not an MMO. It is more of a FPSRPG. This made me laugh. I couldn't believe my eyes when I read it. Had to read it three times to get over my disbelief that it actually has to be explained to someone. Learn your acronyms. It is an MMO as MMO means "Massively Multiplayer Online" Where it's lacking is the RPG part, RPG meaning "Role Playing Game". I'm sure we all know FPS means "First Person Shooter", vehicles being the TPS (Third Person Shooter) exception. So Dust 514 is currently a MMOFPS with RPG elements meaning "Massively Multiplayer Online First Person Shooter with Role Playing Game elements".
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 2789	Posted - 2013.07.25 01:24:00 - [26] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: First mistake is saying that proto w/o HP mods is better than basic with HP mods. You're wrong. Basic, Advanced, and Proto suits of the same type, without HP mods, have the exact same EHP. The Eve side tiericide only applied ships within the same level class. Example... Amarr Basic Amarr Battleship reqs for Armageddon, Apocalypse, and Abaddon: Spaceship Command 4, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlcruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 1 (The differerence in the old skill reqs were Armageddon: Amarr Battleship 1, Apocalypse: Amarr Battleship 3, and Abaddon: Amarr Battleship 5) Amarr Navy Issue Faction reqs for Armageddon (NI) and Apocalypse (NI) : Spaceship Command 4, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlecruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 2 Amarr related Pirate Faction Battleships reqs for Nightmare: Spaceship Command 4, Amarr and Caldari Frigate 3, Amarr and Caldari Destroyer 3, Amarr and Caldari Cruiser 3, Amarr and Caldari Battlecruiser 3, and Amarr and Caldari Battleship 1 Amarr Black Ops Battleship reqs for Redeemer: Spaceship Command 5, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlcruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 5, Science 5, Navigation 5, Warp Drive Operation 5, Jump Drive Operation 5, Jump Drive Calibration 4, Electronics 4, Cloaking 4, Black Ops 1 Amarr Marauder Battleship reqs for Paladin: Spaceship Command 5, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlcruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 5, Gunnery 2, Weapon Upgrades 5, Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5, Science 1, Engineering 2, Energy Grid upgrades 5, Marauders 1 So, as you see, the tiericide was rather minor as far as skill reqs for a class of battleship were unified with minor adjustments to ship attributes. Ah my mistake on the numbers, as for the tiercide, all I know about it is what I picked up from various eve articles, if you could provide a better explanation that would be welcome.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 2789	Posted - 2013.07.25 01:28:00 - [27] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Firstly, you can kill any other suit with a milita rifle. Second, I'm quite guilty of running proto suits, though not usually Duvolle guns. CCP is experimenting with different design doctrines, and they have a lot of work ahead of them. They have recently increased defensive options, like rechargers. If rechargers or armor repairers are too good, everyone will stack them. If they make small tweaks to milita gear, the could make it easier on new players, but make easier isk farming for everyone. They want to promote consumption of ISK and AUR, but who would bother paying for minor upgrades? There are typical stacking penalties in Eve, but the are not applied to shield or armor extenders. Even if they do something to discourage the stacking of EHP mods (run speed or hit box size for shields) everyone would focus on quick recovery or gank power. They have a cool ISK system to discourage proto overuse, but it doesn't work well enough, and will fall apart when I can dump Eve ISK or supplies into my Dust wallet or inventory. CCP knows this, and I doubt they know how to solve that one yet either. Regardless, my Exile is still deadly. Yes a militia gun will kill a proto suit, eventually. The fact is long before that will happen, he will have taken you down in a matter of seconds, as it stands the only effective counter to a proto suit is another proto suit, that's fundamentally unbalanced, it's like the only way to counter rock is with another rock, it's terrible game design.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 2790	Posted - 2013.07.25 01:29:00 - [28] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Ignore the numbers: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pet88sKPbMV7G4PqvgRySV1Df5kRyioMIaiSABFIwII/edit?usp=sharing There, I just created a bunch of variation. About your idea: Rename Basic suits (From the list above) as T1. Assault and Logi are T2, where they aren't just better than T1, they are specialized. T1 is a mesh of a logi and an assault, can do both but a bit worse. Have T1 and T2 gear, T2 gear is more CPU/PG intensive and has greater downsides in addition to the upside. This is the kind of thing I was thinking of, thank you cat merc.
Promethius Franklin DUST University Ivy League 108	Posted - 2013.07.25 01:40:00 - [29] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: First mistake is saying that proto w/o HP mods is better than basic with HP mods. You're wrong. Basic, Advanced, and Proto suits of the same type, without HP mods, have the exact same EHP. The Eve side tiericide only applied ships within the same level class. Example... Amarr Basic Amarr Battleship reqs for Armageddon, Apocalypse, and Abaddon: Spaceship Command 4, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlcruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 1 (The differerence in the old skill reqs were Armageddon: Amarr Battleship 1, Apocalypse: Amarr Battleship 3, and Abaddon: Amarr Battleship 5) Amarr Navy Issue Faction reqs for Armageddon (NI) and Apocalypse (NI) : Spaceship Command 4, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlecruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 2 Amarr related Pirate Faction Battleships reqs for Nightmare: Spaceship Command 4, Amarr and Caldari Frigate 3, Amarr and Caldari Destroyer 3, Amarr and Caldari Cruiser 3, Amarr and Caldari Battlecruiser 3, and Amarr and Caldari Battleship 1 Amarr Black Ops Battleship reqs for Redeemer: Spaceship Command 5, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlcruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 5, Science 5, Navigation 5, Warp Drive Operation 5, Jump Drive Operation 5, Jump Drive Calibration 4, Electronics 4, Cloaking 4, Black Ops 1 Amarr Marauder Battleship reqs for Paladin: Spaceship Command 5, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlcruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 5, Gunnery 2, Weapon Upgrades 5, Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5, Science 1, Engineering 2, Energy Grid upgrades 5, Marauders 1 So, as you see, the tiericide was rather minor as far as skill reqs for a class of battleship were unified with minor adjustments to ship attributes. Old prereqs were lvl's 1,2 and 3 for T1 ships within a class, not 1, 3 and 5, but other than that it's rather spot on. Dusts system, while similar, really isn't compatible with the concept. It would be like having a fast version, a tanky version, and a high damage version of each suit which were at the same level rather than the STD/ADV/PRO suits we have now.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 2792	Posted - 2013.07.25 01:43:00 - [30] - Quote Promethius Franklin wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: First mistake is saying that proto w/o HP mods is better than basic with HP mods. You're wrong. Basic, Advanced, and Proto suits of the same type, without HP mods, have the exact same EHP. The Eve side tiericide only applied ships within the same level class. Example... Amarr Basic Amarr Battleship reqs for Armageddon, Apocalypse, and Abaddon: Spaceship Command 4, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlcruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 1 (The differerence in the old skill reqs were Armageddon: Amarr Battleship 1, Apocalypse: Amarr Battleship 3, and Abaddon: Amarr Battleship 5) Amarr Navy Issue Faction reqs for Armageddon (NI) and Apocalypse (NI) : Spaceship Command 4, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlecruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 2 Amarr related Pirate Faction Battleships reqs for Nightmare: Spaceship Command 4, Amarr and Caldari Frigate 3, Amarr and Caldari Destroyer 3, Amarr and Caldari Cruiser 3, Amarr and Caldari Battlecruiser 3, and Amarr and Caldari Battleship 1 Amarr Black Ops Battleship reqs for Redeemer: Spaceship Command 5, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlcruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 5, Science 5, Navigation 5, Warp Drive Operation 5, Jump Drive Operation 5, Jump Drive Calibration 4, Electronics 4, Cloaking 4, Black Ops 1 Amarr Marauder Battleship reqs for Paladin: Spaceship Command 5, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlcruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 5, Gunnery 2, Weapon Upgrades 5, Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5, Science 1, Engineering 2, Energy Grid upgrades 5, Marauders 1 So, as you see, the tiericide was rather minor as far as skill reqs for a class of battleship were unified with minor adjustments to ship attributes. Old prereqs were lvl's 1,2 and 3 for T1 ships within a class, not 1, 3 and 5, but other than that it's rather spot on. Dusts system, while similar, really isn't compatible with the concept. It would be like having a fast version, a tanky version, and a high damage version of each suit which were at the same level rather than the STD/ADV/PRO suits we have now. Honestly I just want to see a system that doesn't have such a large DPS and EHP gap between players, it's unnatural and game breaking in a FPS.



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