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Promethius Franklin
DUST University Ivy League
108
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Posted - 2013.07.25 01:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:First mistake is saying that proto w/o HP mods is better than basic with HP mods. You're wrong. Basic, Advanced, and Proto suits of the same type, without HP mods, have the exact same EHP.
The Eve side tiericide only applied ships within the same level class.
Example... Amarr Basic Amarr Battleship reqs for Armageddon, Apocalypse, and Abaddon: Spaceship Command 4, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlcruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 1 (The differerence in the old skill reqs were Armageddon: Amarr Battleship 1, Apocalypse: Amarr Battleship 3, and Abaddon: Amarr Battleship 5)
Amarr Navy Issue Faction reqs for Armageddon (NI) and Apocalypse (NI) : Spaceship Command 4, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlecruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 2
Amarr related Pirate Faction Battleships reqs for Nightmare: Spaceship Command 4, Amarr and Caldari Frigate 3, Amarr and Caldari Destroyer 3, Amarr and Caldari Cruiser 3, Amarr and Caldari Battlecruiser 3, and Amarr and Caldari Battleship 1
Amarr Black Ops Battleship reqs for Redeemer: Spaceship Command 5, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlcruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 5, Science 5, Navigation 5, Warp Drive Operation 5, Jump Drive Operation 5, Jump Drive Calibration 4, Electronics 4, Cloaking 4, Black Ops 1
Amarr Marauder Battleship reqs for Paladin: Spaceship Command 5, Amarr Frigate 3, Amarr Destroyer 3, Amarr Cruiser 3, Amarr Battlcruiser 3, and Amarr Battleship 5, Gunnery 2, Weapon Upgrades 5, Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5, Science 1, Engineering 2, Energy Grid upgrades 5, Marauders 1
So, as you see, the tiericide was rather minor as far as skill reqs for a class of battleship were unified with minor adjustments to ship attributes. Old prereqs were lvl's 1,2 and 3 for T1 ships within a class, not 1, 3 and 5, but other than that it's rather spot on. Dusts system, while similar, really isn't compatible with the concept. It would be like having a fast version, a tanky version, and a high damage version of each suit which were at the same level rather than the STD/ADV/PRO suits we have now. |
Promethius Franklin
DUST University Ivy League
108
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 01:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
gbghg wrote:Honestly I just want to see a system that has such a large DPS and EHP gap between players, it's unnatural and game breaking in a FPS. Slot count differences and passive bonuses have that effect. If we had single suits in a catagory with helpful yet not game breaking bonuses it wouldn't be as much of an issue, but that breaks the whole intended economic effect of wearing proto all the time, not that it ever actually works out that way. |
Promethius Franklin
DUST University Ivy League
108
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 01:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
gbghg wrote:Promethius Franklin wrote:gbghg wrote:Honestly I just want to see a system that has such a large DPS and EHP gap between players, it's unnatural and game breaking in a FPS. Slot count differences and tiered mods with passive skill bonuses have that effect. If we had single suits in a catagory with helpful yet not game breaking bonuses it wouldn't be as much of an issue, but that breaks the whole intended economic effect of wearing proto all the time, not that it ever actually works out that way. What effect is that? I'm tired and can't remember/ be bothered to look it up. The EHP and DPS gap you just mentioned.
Wait
Did you mean the economic one I mentioned? That was the idea that running Proto in pub matches would be rare as is was economically prohibitive. Or rather the whole concept of diminishing returns on isk investment as well, but that wasn't achieved either. |
Promethius Franklin
DUST University Ivy League
109
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 03:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sete Clifton wrote:I strongly agree with approach and idea. There's a reason most FPS don't allow you to increase base damage and HP (juggernaut and stopping power, anyone?). And honestly, I don't buy the MMO (or even the RPG) argument. Dust is just as much a lobby shooter as COD/BF/Halo/etc.
That being said, I don't see them actually doing this. However, there still are things to consider for balancing. The three primary issues in my opinion are (in no particular order):
1 - Passive skill bonuses are too large (mostly just for damage and HP related skills) 2 - Modules are too effective/strong 3 - Proto allows for the stacking too many mods
My suggestion for #1 and #2 would be to just reduce the numbers across the board. As an example, I think the base shield/armor skills give a +5% per level, I'd make it 1-2%. Complex shield mods have 66 HP, change it to around half of that.
For #3, instead of reducing the number of overall slots, I'd spread them out. By this I mean keep the overall numbers the same, but introduce a third slot (medium?) and syphon away some highs and lows to fill that new slot. So the basic idea is a proto suit would be something like 2/2/2 (h/m/l) or 3/1/2 or 1/1/4 etc. As for what mods fit into what slot type, that would need to be redone completely. Here's a basic rundown of what I'm thinking:
High - All damage and HP increasing mods Medium - Non-direct combat mods like stamina, stealth, scan radius, equipment related mods Low - Shield and armor effectiveness mods like rechargers, repairers, damage type resistance, etc
They should then also introduce a whole bunch of new mods like things that effect how well your equipment works, or mods that for example take up two medium slots but give an extra high slot in return.
People are probably going to **** on me for using this work/phrase/idea, but what this essentially does is makes modules more like perks that help you slightly in certain ways, rather than making you extremely dominant in any particular way. This way, you keep the same number of slots, keep the deep customization, but reduce the stockpiling of single mod types like shields/damage. You're still going to get progression and an advantage over noobs, but it will just be an advantage that you actively need to use with skill rather than just relying on huge passive numbers. I disagree with the idea that the factors individually are problematic. Rather it's the combination of factors. Being able to add 22 0r 66 HP is inconsequential alone, but add that to a passive bonus to base HP and percentage to the mod itself, then add the fact that you can stack that in a proto suit 2-3 more times than in a standard and yes, it becomes a problem. The issue is then exasperated by the length on time needed to get to that level. If it only took a few weeks to get a variety of proto mods, enough to fill a suit, then the performance issues would be a non issue.
Personally I'd like to see STD and ADV suits brought up to where there was a 1 slot difference between tiers and a similar balance brought between module tiers. Also perhaps going from 1/3/5 unlock levels for suits, 1/2/4 would be more suitable, with the basic frames getting one general but not game breaking bonus, and the specialized frames adding a second task specific one, thus giving lvl 5 a purpose without being a mandate. |
Promethius Franklin
DUST University Ivy League
111
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 03:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tectonic Fusion wrote:Promethius Franklin wrote: I disagree with the idea that the factors individually are problematic. Rather it's the combination of factors. Being able to add 22 or 66 HP is inconsequential alone, but add that to a passive bonus to base HP and percentage to the mod itself, then add the fact that you can stack that in a proto suit 2-3 more times than in a standard and yes, it becomes a problem. The issue is then exasperated by the length on time needed to get to that level. If it only took a few weeks to get a variety of proto mods, enough to fill a suit, then the performance issues would be a non issue.
Personally I'd like to see STD and ADV suits brought up to where there was a 1 slot difference between tiers and a similar balance brought between module tiers. Also perhaps going from 1/3/5 unlock levels for suits, 1/2/4 would be more suitable, the lowered levels reflecting the closer capabilities of the suits, with the basic frames getting one general but not game breaking bonus, and the specialized frames adding a second task specific one, thus giving lvl 5's a purpose without being a mandate to be competitive.
I agree. But how bout just more suits. Like basic, basic+, advanced, advenced+, proto. 5 levels. In order to keep the STD useable in a proto world I'm not sure we could leave enough differentiation to justify a suit for every level, I could be wrong though. |
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