Right now CCP Shanghai is at a point they don't want to listen to you guys and they're just as reluctant to listent ot the CPM

Link to were this comes from?

Don't worry guys. CCP Shanghai is on this.

The poor reviews are clearly the result of listening to us too hard and they've realised that our feedback is worthless.

We're sorry for ruining your game, CCP. You are free to implement your brilliant ideas without our feedback now.

Link to were this comes from?

They have been listening to us?

A year and a half we have slightly better graphics same 3 maps. And a planetary Map added to skirmish to call it pc.

Uprising is a total flop top to bottom. If they don't want to listen to us then listen to my wallet close.

I'm finding playing anything but PC matches pretty tough I'm starting to care less who they listen too time is running out.

Don't worry guys. CCP Shanghai is on this.

The poor reviews are clearly the result of listening to us too hard and they've realized that our feedback is worthless.

We're sorry for ruining your game, CCP. You are free to implement your brilliant ideas without our feedback now.

I would never listen to any fanbase. The fans have zero experience with game design but they still listen to us.

You're right we only have played 1000s of hours of games in our lifetimes yet we know nothing about games because we never designed a game before, smh?

Before it gets too out of hand let me explain a short bit of what the CPM has been trying to do for the last few weeks.

Right now the CPM is in a very odd situation, we have a new studio that well for most matters and intents do not really know what to do with us. The CPM would like to mimic the CSM whose workload is rather well lets say drowning. However the Studio in Shanghai well new at many of things including making FPS games.

CPM for the last two weeks has been trying to get on the line with CCP and right now CCP is as usual with many things slow to do things but hopefully starting soon the CPM will be able to start proving its worth to CCP as well as your guy's feedback on issues.

There is now a meeting to be scheduled soon asking for feedback of specific parts of the game with the team involved. If successful this may open up other teams to start approaching the CPM and the Community for feedback.

Not all of CCP Shanghai is bad at listening, there are quite a few reluctant to try though.

So now you understand the statement in IRC a bit, I certainly hope that the changes are genuine and changing and I hopefully will not have to repeat this statement in the future.

There is now a meeting to be scheduled soon asking for feedback of specific parts of the game with the team involved. If successful this may open up other teams to start approaching the CPM and the Community for feedback.

What is bothersome is that you seem to imply that the old team use to listen to the community....and right now we have a sh*t game.

Perhaps the CPM should realize that it might be a good idea for CCP to stop listening if listening has given the result we have today.

CPM for the last two weeks has been trying to get on the line with CCP and right now CCP is as usual with many things slow to do things but hopefully starting soon the CPM will be able to start proving its worth to CCP as well as your guy's feedback on issues.

Before it gets too out of hand let me explain a short bit of what the CPM has been trying to do for the last few weeks.

Right now the CPM is in a very odd situation, we have a new studio that well for most matters and intents do not really know what to do with us. The CPM would like to mimic the CSM whose workload is rather well lets say drowning. However the Studio in Shanghai well new at many of things including making FPS games.

CPM for the last two weeks has been trying to get on the line with CCP and right now CCP is as usual with many things slow to do things but hopefully starting soon the CPM will be able to start proving its worth to CCP as well as your guy's feedback on issues.

There is now a meeting to be scheduled soon asking for feedback of specific parts of the game with the team involved. If successful this may open up other teams to start approaching the CPM and the Community for feedback.

Not all of CCP Shanghai is bad at listening, there are quite a few reluctant to try though.

So now you understand the statement in IRC a bit, I certainly hope that the changes are genuine and changing and I hopefully will not have to repeat this statement in the future.

If they listen to us
they are listening to the wrong people (Cod fanboys, brainless QQrs...)

Oh yea?

And exactly what is on the agenda for the CPM to communicate to CCP?

No generalizations like "player feedback" please... specifically what are you guys on the CPM going to request CCP do?

What is the purpose of the meeting, to get CCP iceland involved, to get CCP shanghai to listen more, to attempt to address more issues already mentioned?

The "CPM" is dumb. Why does there even need to be a middle man when you can just you know.... log in the forums and just read, or play your own damn game.

CPM might as well be a perk you get when you buy an Elite Pack so you can have the nifty little tag in the forums and get more likes no matter what the post is.

They have been listening to us?

A year and a half we have slightly better graphics same 3 maps. And a planetary Map added to skirmish to call it pc.

Uprising is a total flop top to bottom. If they don't want to listen to us then listen to my wallet close.

I'm finding playing anything but PC matches pretty tough I'm starting to care less who they listen too time is running out.

In my honest opinion I think its more of a demonstration of what the CPM can do for CCP. I am sure CCP Iceland already had the talk with CCP Shanghai over Dust but CPM don't sit at those sort of meetings.

In my honest opinion I think its more of a demonstration of what the CPM can do for CCP. I am sure CCP Iceland already had the talk with CCP Shanghai over Dust but CPM don't sit at those sort of meetings.

INB4 IWS has a meltdown.

I can safely say CCP has already took a step back since launch and changing for the better.

Just the process does take time and well that's why there seems to be a current deep void spot there is now.

I am a bit weirded out that the CCP Shanghai I might see in a few more weeks will be an entirely different monster that I currently know since I started my CPM 0 Term.

Will this monster be good or bad?

Only the magic Crystal Ball Knows.

Its like you when you were 5 years old. What did you want to be when you grow up can often be entirely different than what happened.

You're right we only have played 1000s of hours of games in our lifetimes yet we know nothing about games because we never designed a game before, smh?
Sorry there is a difference between ignorance and learned experience. We know what works well and what doesn't in terms of gameplay because most of us have played games most our lives.


More often than not however and what you mean to say is bad players don't know good game design but often carry the loudest voice because there are so many more bad players then good.


Uncharted patch 1.04 is the biggest example of this i can think of aside from this game especially from the time EVE players started coming in prior to last August and decided they knew how to make a great FPS with all their years of playing spaceship MMO.

Yes we have 1000's of hours of experience. We also have thousands of ideas and opinions. Many of which are mutually exclusive or directly counteract the advantages of certain ideas. If they just implemented what we wanted the game would become ridiculous.

Listening to players or not wasn't the problem. The problem was listening to the players en masse and collectively. If anything CCP should listen to fewer players. Ones that they feel are both objective and able to consider a point from many angles. They should be more discerning. They will still get different ideas and opinions - but more constructive and balanced ones. The current state of the forums and player feedback resembles the US political system. Not a lot gets done.

just my 2c.. there needs to be a lot more CCP - Player interaction going on.

Take a look at how Trion handled and developed the first year of rift. The devs were constantly explaining the math and logic behind everything they were doing to balance that game, and the player base gave meaningful and constructive feedback as well as tons of angry and criticizing QQ that was written purely out of spite.

However, **** got done and people felt they were being listened to to some extent.

The biggest reason why there is so much negativity on this forum is because there is a complete lack of information from CCP on what is going on for the next, say 4 weeks. All we get is a week update with 5-6 bullet points saying 'we are looking into it'.

Then out of nowhere, we get a drastic balance change drop on us without any sort of warning. A lot of times its a change that is not reflecting the needs and wants of the playerbase, and then a weapon, that someone has spent WEEKS grinding out becomes pretty much useless. The only reason we've all been okay thus far is the constant respecs are allowing us to get out of poorly balanced dropsuits/weapons and not destroying weeks/months worth of SP accumulation.

We are not a bunch of retards who can't do math or help theorize balance issues. Yes, everyone is gonna have their own bias, but if CCP would release balance change information the moment they had it finalized and weeks before deployment, in order to get general feedback. The playerbase would feel SO much better about this game.

Honestly, we still have no hard information on the range fix and tac ar nerf, however these things are scheduled to deploy relatively soon from what I can see.

Why not release the numbers for this? Why would it hurt to have a little balance transparency while you are making your changes?

If the CPM needs to be the vehicle for Dev - Player interaction, that is totally fine. We just need something, because as it stands, the player base feels like they are being completely ignored, while a game they are invested in crumbles around them.

TL;DR - The player base is frustrated with the lack of dev interaction, and pulling out completely will only make things much much worse.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves here IWS

CPM0 main purpose was to help build the stepping stones to a player elected council, which BTW I have still not seen one single draft.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves here IWS

CPM0 main purpose was to help build the stepping stones to a player elected council, which BTW I have still not seen one single draft.

and we (the CPM) is just as frustrated at times. I just hope the CCP we start meeting with is the start of something better. I mean after all Eve online was not the only thing that has constantly evolved and got better over the years. CCP has evolved along with it. I am quite sure the same drive will affect the Dust 514 studio as well.

Right right, however I don't want CPM 1's day one feeling utterly useless on their portion either. There is quite a bit of foundation building going on right now.

This took ten years, most Dust players don't have ten years to wait.

They're right.



Bad players have f***** this game up.


"Lower strafing we can't aim"

"Nerf all weapons but AR's"

"Nerf Heavy's"

"Nerf tanks"

"Nerf the dropsuit HP cause we can't do proper 1 v 1's"


.

Yup which is why my comment wound up on IRC, getting a bit frustrated.

You're right we only have played 1000s of hours of games in our lifetimes yet we know nothing about games because we never designed a game before, smh?
Sorry there is a difference between ignorance and learned experience. We know what works well and what doesn't in terms of gameplay because most of us have played games most our lives.


More often than not however and what you mean to say is bad players don't know good game design but often carry the loudest voice because there are so many more bad players then good.


Uncharted patch 1.04 is the biggest example of this i can think of aside from this game especially from the time EVE players started coming in prior to last August and decided they knew how to make a great FPS with all their years of playing spaceship MMO.

Don't worry guys. CCP Shanghai is on this.

The poor reviews are clearly the result of listening to us too hard and they've realised that our feedback is worthless.

We're sorry for ruining your game, CCP. You are free to implement your brilliant ideas without our feedback now.

UPDATE:

Just stop listening to AR fanbois.. theres a start

Its not the "AR fanbois".

Its all CCP and their inexperience with FPS's in general. They should callin some outside advice from other developers who have made good FPS's before.

They have several DICE staff and other FPS devs already - still they fail.

They have several DICE staff and other FPS devs already - still they fail.

Depends on which DICE/Zipper staff they have, whether that's helping their core shooter or not.

IWS - I only want to know one thing from you.

Are they using mostly pub data to make game changing decisions that effect competitive level play?

Listening to players or not wasn't the problem. The problem was listening to the players en masse and collectively. If anything CCP should listen to fewer players. Ones that they feel are both objective and able to consider a point from many angles. They should be more decerning. They will still get different ideas and opinions - but more constructive and balanced ones. The current state of the forums and player feedback resembles the US political system. Not a lot gets done.

So CPM wants to hand-hold CCP apparently? Might as well just hire entire CPM and do game design then! I don't understand individual CPM members that feel "useless" though. Why not resign then? :/ If you can't find yourself useful to CCP sounds like a good idea to me to do...?

I thought IWS is patient and calm dude but he is trying hard to respond to everyone here and just getting buried and melting away from all attacks all over the place.

CPM?

IWS is a great guy, a hard worker who means well and gives all of you far more attention than is often deserved, given some of the assholes he'll reply to. I've already warned him that responding to obvious trollbait threads like this one are a waste of time

trying to tar and feather the CPM

FTR: This came up while Ironwolf was being a scholar and a gentleman in soliciting feedback about game events.

what is CPM?
what CPM stands for?

But, no, you're probably totally informed or else you wouldn't comment.

I'm not referring to you, specifically, Mith. Only to the the terrible posts that jumped on the bandwagon and were quick to wail about the most extreme possibilities without showing any of the reluctance to jump to conlusions that is needed by community and CPM alike while we await more information from CCP. OP's can have legitimate questions and still see the thread end up like Lord of the Flies.

Check this out, it should explain it: https://dust514.com/newsitem/?friendlyid=dust-514-council-of-planetary-management-1&channelid=60&channelname=blog&newsitempagetobeselected=blog

I'm not referring to you, specifically, Mith. Only to the the terrible posts that jumped on the bandwagon and were quick to wail about the most extreme possibilities without showing any of the reluctance to jump to conlusions that is needed by community and CPM alike while we await more information from CCP. OP's can have legitimate questions and still see the thread end up like Lord of the Flies.

Okay, I get you. I got the impression that you read the thread as an attack on Ironwolf.

Yeah, unfortunately drift towards ragethread seems to be an unfortunate consequence of discussing anything of actual import.

why are people like this continuing with this tactic month after month after month?

...Because they're still waiting for it to finally work. And it won't.

But, no, you're probably totally informed or else you wouldn't comment.

Oh no, the thread itself is not. At least where your intentions were concerned. I'm simply highlighting some of the banal conversation that's ensued, about how CCP has no one that knows FPS's, or that there's some communication blackout (completely different situation than "we'd like more, faster") or that the CPM is impotent (already proven far from that), or other ridiculous hyperbole that only accelerates the type of banal feedback that's already clogging the forums and taking time away from the community team - the very community team who's other job is to secure us the information we need from the developers.

That's right, you heard me - every minute that the community team is running around squashing shitposts and locking spamthreads full of tears and immaturity, is time that you're taking away from them supporting US by giving us the resources we need to get real conversations going about things like game balancing and performance. And that's all I'm asking people to consider here.

This thread is missing anime.

And I'd like to remind people the CPM is the bridge of gap of communications between us and CCP - cut them down only works to widen that gap further. It may be bad business practice - but it's unavoidable if you consider the small team CCP uses to make these games.

IWS is... just a terrible PR - and so is Jenza - and they're the two most active posters to the community - so ofc CPM looks like trash. But the fact is neither of them explain truly what it is they really even do with this information and many are concerned there lack of experience and bad posts will reflect onto CCP and things will get worse.

Shame no real community man like myself is on CPM who can handle all of the bullshit around here ;)

I think people are frustrated with the lack of communication. The vague dev posts that raised more questions than answers were fine in beta, bu this isn't beta anymore. For example, look at EVE online's patch notes whenever a new build comes out and look at the Swiss cheese we got for uprising. That's not good communication and the reason behind most knee jerk reactions. Now that this game is released, we need things to be a little more specific not only to us who survived beta, but new players that have no idea what this game is trying to be. We need timelines, facts, figures, numbers... spreadsheets!

Instead, we're still gettin the same old Mickey Mouse banter about trees and flowers.

This took ten years, most Dust players don't have ten years to wait.

Frankly we're all a bit frustrated right now, but only due to the sequence of events that was inevitable when we formed the CPM and that we knew would be unpleasant because it was never destined to be "happy-magic-fix-dust-overnight-land" as much as we'd love to romanticize the idea of a player council.

IWS is a great guy, a hard worker who means well and gives all of you far more attention than is often deserved, given some of the assholes he'll reply to. I've already warned him that responding to obvious trollbait threads like this one are a waste of time because many here simply want to vent anger and take statements out of context in order to incite riots. And lets cut through the bullshit - why are people like this continuing with this tactic month after month after month?

...Because they're still waiting for it to finally work. And it won't. CCP is not your enemy alliance you're at war with, they are a RL business staffed by human beings with feelings and none of you are going to successfully **** talk your way into the negotiating table with the individuals that can actually give you what you're bitching about. It's been tried for years, its failed, and you all know it. Pretend that you care about the game, but at least have the balls to admit you know this isn't going to work and that you're just having fun being an *******.

The more rage, butthurt, smack talk, and facepalming that fills forums - even with the feeble attampts at simply ratcheting up frequency and volume as if brute force emotion is somehow effective as a tactic with dealing with business professionals, the more you're going to find the CPM tuning out this noise as well, even if a few of has have a (well-intentioned) urge to quell emotions that are still going to be there until everything we want fixed is fixed.

Now lets look at some of the hyperbole we've heard in here already - emotionally driven by all parties involved. ...

Yes let's discuss hyperbole Hans?

You, yet again, attack everyone and everything in the forums.

...

It's this kind of hostility that is then communicated to Shanghai.

You and Ironwolf both have a bad attitude towards the very people you purport to represent.

And the vast majority of the forum warriors have an even worse attitude towards everyone who disagrees with them.

Frankly we're all a bit frustrated right now, but only due to the sequence of events that was inevitable when we formed the CPM and that we knew would be unpleasant because it was never destined to be "happy-magic-fix-dust-overnight-land" as much as we'd love to romanticize the idea of a player council.

IWS is a great guy, a hard worker who means well and gives all of you far more attention than is often deserved, given some of the assholes he'll reply to. I've already warned him that responding to obvious trollbait threads like this one are a waste of time because many here simply want to vent anger and take statements out of context in order to incite riots. And lets cut through the bullshit - why are people like this continuing with this tactic month after month after month?

...Because they're still waiting for it to finally work. And it won't. CCP is not your enemy alliance you're at war with, they are a RL business staffed by human beings with feelings and none of you are going to successfully **** talk your way into the negotiating table with the individuals that can actually give you what you're bitching about. It's been tried for years, its failed, and you all know it. Pretend that you care about the game, but at least have the balls to admit you know this isn't going to work and that you're just having fun being an *******.

The more rage, butthurt, smack talk, and facepalming that fills forums - even with the feeble attampts at simply ratcheting up frequency and volume as if brute force emotion is somehow effective as a tactic with dealing with business professionals, the more you're going to find the CPM tuning out this noise as well, even if a few of has have a (well-intentioned) urge to quell emotions that are still going to be there until everything we want fixed is fixed.

Now lets look at some of the hyperbole we've heard in here already - emotionally driven by all parties involved. Of course CCP as not a company know for making FPS's, but the Shanghai team is also chock full of staff from both Dice and Zipper and Praetorian himself described their experience making Battlefield Bad Company at the round table at Fanfest. The idea that there's no one in Shanghai that understands FPS games is frankly ridiculous. Again, feel free to try to torment IWS or to insult CCP's designers because of some statements that could have been phrased more elegantly (but were refreshingly heartfelt) but there's no denying objective fact here when it comes to the personnel involved in Dust's production.

Now do all of us, players and CSM and CCP alike - see the need for MORE staff working on the game? Absolutely. Can lack of time to work on a feature mimic the effect of an incompetent designer? Absolutely. Are any of us happy about the media's review scores? Not in the least, even if we may agree with some of them. Is there any point in pretending that there's no issues here to resolve? Of course not. And will calling CCP a failure when the issue lies there always being more we want done than there is people to do them (which is also improving as CCP hires more and more staff, which they are)

This notion that you all need to preach this to CCP, or to us on the CPM, or that the CPM needs to preach any of it to CCP - is simply absurd at this point. This is exactly why the established the CPM at this time to begin with, to construct and begin practicing with some rather essential communication pipelines that every party knows have to be established in order for us to make progress will help Dust evolve into the game it we know it nees to be

I know CCP's not about to abandon this anytime soon, the CPM sure isn't - as restless as all we are to get involved in a deeper capacity, and whether the rest of you abandon the game or not, at least suck it up and stop pretending you're somehow helping by trying to tar and feather the CPM (which only makes you like an ass to CCP, who know better as to what we've been helping with).

For those that stick around, HTFU and stop QQ-ing about how everything's a disaster and that boomotherfuckinghoo everything is all doomed and ****. Either be part of the solution, and work with us - or own up to the asshattery and continue to spam useless circlejerk threads like this one.

As IWS said - we're in a state of transition right now, there are internal meeting going on to establish the best way to use the CPM and to reach out to the community, and CCP's already owned up to the fact that they're aware of what needs to be done. We are slated to have more meetings with them this week in order to answer many of the questions we have, and we'll have more to report at that time.

Given how infrequently ccp makes substantive posts that seems inevitable?

People would just rage over the content of those posts if they did.

Well I 'seen' the patch notes (up and coming) most of them are things you guys have asked for it seems. All I hope is CCP publishes them in good time.

I don't feel comfortable talking about it on the forums because its a subject I already know that was not that popular to begin with when it was first done and IRC has been helpful enough on deliberating on a path forward to fixing it for next time.

Yes let's discuss hyperbole Hans?

You, yet again, attack everyone and everything in the forums.

...

It's this kind of hostility that is then communicated to Shanghai.

You and Ironwolf both have a bad attitude towards the very people you purport to represent.

P.S. You still don't seem to actually play Dust514, you were in what 1? battle as we ejected your alliance from PC?

Well, the problem.is.not.ccp listening to us.

The problem is.ccp is looking in the forums and try to judge by the thread-titles.
We have and we still have very good conversations on the forums how to balance stuff. And we also had this back in chromoaome. Major changes in the gameplay and in the weapon balance who were made from chromosome to uprising all came from ccp. I cant remember any discussions where people said give assault suits just 1 equipment slot, about making logi suits super powerful, nerfing all weapons to death except for ar, and oh yeah please ccp, make the tac.the absolute op weapon.

I'm visiting the forums very frequent since open beta, and haven't seen requests on this.
So you can blame whoever you want, but not us.

The beta was useless because it was no beta, i could not feel any tweaking or changes implemented in the open beta at all. And we are talking about 4-5 months. Every mistake ccp did with uprising would have been avoidable if ccp would have actually talked to their customer base and tried stuff in the beta like they are trying now.

this is the truth, and yeah truth sometimes hurt. But if you make a mistake stand to it and get your ass up to learn from this mistakes, instead of blaming anybody else. We all left kindergarten a long time ago. So lets at least try to behave like grown up men and women.