It's in a middle ground right now. It's not quite as tactical as stuff like CoD, it's not as arcade as Halo. It's in a good place. Realistic, but sci-fi realistic.

Honestly from what I played I really liked it. I feel like most of the rage threads are just QQ over not being able to roll everyone with more SP and having to...

Well... Here goes...

"Adapt or die"

Tbh if I wanted a cod type game i'd buy and play cod same with a battle field game, I wanted a dust 514 game different and deep not a run of the mill fps as ccp described it.

Guess I'll go play battlefield because thats what we got at the moment only not as sharp

well put

i dont think i could have said it better my self and just like the OP ive been playing FPs games for years 20 years give or take
both on console and on PC dont have his forum skill tho

i am a hybrid player myself due to this

i cant compare this build to the last as due to color issues the game was unplayabe for me (excluding the bugs in game)

I agree to a point, I used to play CoD not gonna hide that, so I know what that type of gun game is like, but I also grew up on SWBF2, TF2 and games that you actually do dance in the box and fight a player. Dust is not really close to either one of those, its closer to the middle, but it still feels a little to slow.

Forward and back movements are fine, no issues there. But side to side (strafing) where most of the dancers play in, that movement is again IMO about 10% to slow. If we continue to play at this speed, SP's and guns/gear will be the major factor in the game, not actual game play. Again IMO on this.

I appreciate this thread and the attempt to analyze the reason for the opposing viewpoints. It made me realize that my previous CoD experience has biased me toward the tactical play and explains why I find the bunny hoping to be silly. I never played Halo so I have never gained a preference for zero inertia arcade style play.

@ STB DEADPOOL5241 EV

I have very very little experience with these games so I want to say thank you for explaining to me why I and so sad-face right now.

Nail on the head bud.

Well I guess I will go in search of this halo you talk of.

Not a troll for once I am actually an eve tard that only got a PS3 for dust....Man I'm so sad-face right now.

Thanks :)

I don't know many former PC players that do console that are not hybrids. We took the best of dancing in the box and the best of tactical fighting to become a middle fighter.

Do you play both types or do you prefer one over the other?

i actually play both in dust using a tactical AR with range boost for the tactical side and a smg for the dancing
the AR pays off more than the SMG like u mention due to strafing it is i little too slow 10% to 15% increase might fix that

I feel like "arcade" style shooters work much better on consoles, as controllers are more suited to run & gun instead of fine aiming.

The strafing nerf has completely wrecked my KDR. I'm officially abandoning scouts for now, as the speed and low profile now merely get me to my imminent death faster. (In combat they are now just as easy to hit as everyone else.)

How is mouse control in this build? Now that run & gun is dead and buried, accuracy is about to get much more important.

But look at Halo vs CoD, both have controllers but two very different styles came out of it. I think its more the movement speed (strafing) and Map size that determine what style you fall into.

I really like this thread and think you have thought it out really well.

I am one of the people complaining about the movement nerf, and I have to admit I started playing shooters by playing Halo. I love being able to move around better. I attribute it to a soldier being in a mech suit.

I think you are right and they just went too far and need to come back a bit. It feel way too stiff right now, as if my merc lost the ability to twist at the waist.

Well ill get this out of the way straight off the bat, iam a tactical player and am from games like Battlefield, Arma, Operation flash point, Ghost recon, Rainbow 6, so my tread may be a tad biased but ill try to remain neutral for the sake of balence,

I agree that it would be good if we could find a middle ground but it is a very fine line, as it is now is tactical right up till you get in close then strafing becomes viable again, but is strafing is increased too much we have the problem that cover becomes redundent,

The common ground is a very fine line and even debatable if it is possible, after some conversations with some of the arcade camp fellas during some of the movement treads, i found them to think too highly of what their dancing skill is to them it is one of only 2 skills that matter dancing skill and tracking, but i ask what about positioning, stealth, playing to strenght of weapons (keeping target at range), using cover, flanking tactics the list can go on but i cant think of them right now they shoud be every bit as valid as those other skills no?

As it is now i think it is close enough to the fine line but if it makes the game better by all meens it should be done,

I like the suggestion of having the suits being certain playstyle assisted.

I think its a good thing you did here to try and show both sides of the coin

Thanks SilentSam,

This is what I used to do for DCUO and Sony, find a way to enlighten the community so we get less QQ threads, if you understand something better you are less likely to rage against it.

Ok, so your thought is you have a mech suit on so your movement is increased and that is why you can bunny hop or dance around.(sorta reminds me of the GI Joe Movie, where they put the suits on and destroyed Paris) But at the same time those suits have metal and other heavy items on it, any real solider would tell you they would slow your movement down not up. Again how realistic do we go?

Scout suits in the last build I think caused this change in movement speed, scout suits were so fast in dancing that you could avoid 90% of the bullets at you. But the current change has also reduced the other suits and they feel IMO about 10 to maybe 15% to slow. We can all still dance but instead of pop and lock speed we are waltzing.

My biggest gripe is that the Scout was made to be faster and move better. Then they stopped it from being able to move well. Without a big ehp boost the Scout has become almost useless. Maybe I am wrong though and it just has a whole newrole. That role is no longer CQC though.

Waltzing is good with a woman but not with a gun :))

I think the frame rate fix has also made the scouts easier to hit. I am not sure but I think the Scout has a larger hit box now as well. I could be wrong of course.

I guess it just seems that a combination of things have happened. How do other suits feel when getting shot at? Are other suits easier to hit now as well?

It use to be that a Scout would be taken down at range, but that they could CQC fine because they could dance around a person. I considered that balanced because it was often the opponents fault for closing range with a CQC person.

Now it seems the Scout is not very good for CQC, and not good for range with its low ehp. So until we can turn invisible I am not sure if the Scout suit has a purpose.

The problem with this is that the game was supposed to offer versatility and options. You could make a suit be what you wanted it to be. It doesnt seem that way.

When you think about a scout, in any other game or heck in real life do you think it should be like the Road Runner and Meep meep around the map, dancing like they should be on "So you think you can dance"

or

Do you see a scout as an long range sniper fighter, spotting the enemy and using tactical moves to counter and attack.

Me, I see the 2nd one. I see a scout as a fast runner who gets into position and then fires, then moves to new spot with the speed of the suit helping you get there, not dancing and thinking you should beat a Assault player in a 1vs1 fight.

Maybe this is the same thought CCP has had about scout suits. Thoughts Sam?

I had always thought it was sci-fi vs realistic. I was hoping this game would stay more sc-fi and not so realistic. Its kind of getting me down.

The game feels great to me right now. Dancing is obsolete because there's actual hit detection now, so the dancing doesn't save you from bullets that it shouldn't. It's easy enough to beat people with better gear than you have. You just have to play it smart.

Incidentally, I'm loving the MLT/STD/ADV readout that's put right on the UI. It definitely helps when so many of the suits look the same even at different levels.

i didnt even needed to read the entire stuff you wrote. Will do tomorrow.
But from what i saw in the introduction, and the opposition between arcade and tactical, i think i'll agree with you fully.

This codex build is clearly giving me a mixed feeling. A huge work on every aspect of the game, well done. And some adjustments in gun play that i find clumsy and annoying, nearly a deal breaker for me now that i've played longer.

i didnt even needed to read the entire stuff you wrote. Will do tomorrow.
But from what i saw in the introduction, and the opposition between arcade and tactical, i think i'll agree with you fully.

This codex build is clearly giving me a mixed feeling. A huge work on every aspect of the game, well done. And some adjustments in gun play that i find clumsy and annoying, nearly a deal breaker for me now that i've played longer.

Suggestion to everyone, give this build time. Lets come back from a weekend of playing and see how we all feel about the movement speed, maybe it will get better as we play or become more obvious it needs work.

Actualy Deadpool I'm 100% arcade . I loved the fast paced action and not having to camp to get kills. I was 75% scout most of the time and loved trying to keep a bead on the hostiles while dancing all over the place. The play style realy suited me and tbh I wasnt half bad at it considering my lack of experiance.

So I guess I'm not like most of the EVE crowd in that respect and I tend to get on well with the MAGTARDS which is odd also I guess.

Just spent a game camping one spot to try it out and came top of the leaderboard

My playstyle is dead this build I guess its time to set up camp or leave.

There's not much to discuss imo. I spend nearly a whole game testing movement speed by doing loooooooong straight line strafing and then doing the same loooong line moving forward. And the difference is huge.
The only way to really notice is to do a long strafe while there's absolutely no action and it feels ridiculous. almost like the guy has a handicap of some sort.

I wasnt fond of the straf\movement speed in the first build, even E3 one felt a bit too fast. Precursor was to me perfect considering hit detection was supposed to be enhanced. But Codex ? it feels like straf speed has been tone down by half.
Thus killing the skill of players that have a good science in disturbing the ennemy with smart move while maintaining good tracking of the target.

It gives me a sensation of pre-played gunfights i never had in precursor. Or, a sort of never ending cover fights due to shield and armor regen. Overall, it serves the guy with the best equipment where precursor seemed to give more possibilities during the gunfight.

I never felt that bad regarding gunplay in any dust 514 build till now.

I'll give it time. But if this is the way dust is going, i may not like it so much.

First good reply, thanks for pointing out where you background is in this, but also staying neutral.

Agree again, that the middle ground is a very, very fine line. But I think we both agree this build compared to last build there has been a shift. What % do you think the speed should be increased by? Do you think this is in all directions or just strafing? Do you think jumping/bunny hop moves should come back or just better strafe speed for better dancing in the box?

Agreed again with actual tactics, but that's a part of the bigger picture of game play. While I'm referring to 1vs1 combat.

While you think to highly of the players that dance, consider the fact they have spent years on their craft in many games, so to them that is the pinnacle of their style. So don't discount them for having the difference is choice of games and finding the best way to play those games.

Agreed, this discussion needs to include suits and movements in those suits.

Again Ty for your kind words. +1

Please keep this conversation polite and civil. I just noticed the other thread that was closed be Devs for getting out of line. I prefer we talk and discuss this like adults with no name calling, no dumbing down replies.

As for the movement changes i would suggest the sprint needs a 5 to 10% boost (closer to 5 tho) main reason is most people say it feels to slow and to me that is the evade "head down and get the hell out of there/to cover" dont know about the base movement speed tho id like to hear from more people from my style as at this iam above average at tactical shooters, ecceling at strategic planing such why iam trying extra hard at squad leader this time just need squad on mics, for now i think a alround minor improvement is required to base movement but not much mabye 5% this would have the strafing not equal to forward

I now realise that you are refering to 1 v 1 ultimatly the outcome would be decided from the start of the engagement due to a number of factors:

Range
weapon and its preference in range and target
playstlye, (tactical guys will have advantage at range up till about 10m or so then advantage is arcade guy)
positioning(high ground, cover, flank, )
engage advantages(such as caught them un aware with back turned so on so forth)
evasion skills(only realy work if in cqc if arcady if a tactical play could evade at range with use of cover)
Skill with weapons(both groups have different pref on how to used such as ADS and hip fire for example)
how well equiped
Unfortunatly hit detection/lag/Frame rate drops also play a wild card

So its kind of hard to say how 2 well healed skills will factor into a fire fight (sorry probably a bit off topic) but i honestly cant tell as some situations would suggest one player would win where others the other player would win, the problem i had with the strafe in last build is it was effectivly a panic move that trumped all of the above with the only way to kill them was at their own game now it has less impact so people are angry,

I think the only chance for the line to be found that is common is to find what distance straffing should be effective so that is does not trump other skills after all for a certain skill to work you first need to play it at its strenght, as it stands i think from hip straffing should only work at very close less than 10 metre maybe 8 due to gun sway that would arise from such a movement,

Id be interested to hear more opinions on how it works from OP, others from tactical camp and even the arcade guys

I thought this was one of the most civil discussions i've had seen to date, as I said before the scout suit was to agile with impossible acrobatics but now offers no advantage over assault.the strafe nerf is a good idea implemented badly and to heavy handed as in a one size fits all philosophy, it dosn't work.

I thought this was one of the most civil discussions i've had seen to date, as I said before the scout suit was to agile with impossible acrobatics but now offers no advantage over assault.the strafe nerf is a good idea implemented badly and to heavy handed as in a one size fits all philosophy, it dosn't work.

Ok, so you like the tactical side more. But I have to disagree with your thought on " It's easy enough to beat people with better gear than you have. You just have to play it smart", once you get better gear then it becomes less and less about skill and more about the gear you have earned.

Um Assualt is a combat suit with fire fights in mind that is what it is designed for scout is a recon/sniping designed suit its not ment to go head to head with a assult or even a heavy for that matter, scouts have more ability to get to areas a assualt cant and faster at that the scout suit has 2 traditional roles that i can think of off the top of my head that is recon this is a support role every bit as much as a logi it just lacks reward and is more or less automated, the other natural role is sniper snipers ultimitaly take out dug in enemies, and provide area denial basicly stops enemies from roaming around this will attract alot of hate but thats how you know your being a good sniper, but the miricle of new eden is random fits that people make work, so effectivly a scout does not have a fire fight advantage over a assualt same as a logi doesnt

I agree never played scout as I said before I actually killed all the scouts that tried to mix it with me today but the fun has gone, I used to enjoy trying to beat better players, it all comes down to who has the first hit and better gear now, sort of like Warcraft.

Gear >>> skill

I agree never played scout as I said before I actually killed all the scouts that tried to mix it with me today but the fun has gone, I used to enjoy trying to beat better players, it all comes down to who has the first hit and better gear now, sort of like Warcraft.

Gear >>> skill

When you think about a scout, in any other game or heck in real life do you think it should be like the Road Runner and Meep meep around the map, dancing like they should be on "So you think you can dance"

or

Do you see a scout as an long range sniper fighter, spotting the enemy and using tactical moves to counter and attack.

Me, I see the 2nd one. I see a scout as a fast runner who gets into position and then fires, then moves to new spot with the speed of the suit helping you get there, not dancing and thinking you should beat a Assault player in a 1vs1 fight.

Maybe this is the same thought CCP has had about scout suits. Thoughts Sam?

I think you are seeing the suits in only one perspective, the suits are't classes which restrict you in one role . The scout isn't just made for sniping, there isn't anywhere that says that . I used scouts and fit the them with a shotgun and used my speed as my advantage , which sometimes I get the most kills in the leaderboard or I would lay down drop uplinks near objectives . One person even played a medic fit with his suit , he used his speed to quickly get in and revive and heal his teammates. I think what CCP wants is to create flexibility so players can play their own playstyle .

And I dont really think you know what your talking about when it comes to halo it has nothing to with the planet's gravity(lol you don't even hardly go to any planets in the first place , if it did it doesn't change the gameplay ) its everything to do with the lore behind the Spartans and the core gameplay for halo , mainly the core gameplay. I liked the strafing because to me it added another layer to the gunplay and skill. But also I dislike the insane strafing that was in the first build and I don't think dust was built around it like halo , quake , unreal , doom ,etc . You can't add one element the game wasn't really built around and slap it to the game and expect it to work . Imo I think the one of the reasons the some players complained about the movement in Dust is because we play as super soldier wearing incredibly advanced armor , shouldn't we be able to move fairly quick and efficient around the battle? But at the same time it has to be balanced around with the maps , player count , other suits , etc

gave another go at the build for an hour and a half, and i have serious problem with it. I'm not even refering to orbital strike farming that will most likely be taken out at some point but to this awfull feeling of having the fights pre-calculated. Last buld, there were people complaining about "players blocks". This build ? it's even worse. 2 vs 1 you dont stand a chance 98% of the time.

Obviously it seems kinda logical but in most well done FPS, a good player can deal with the situation
through skills. What i heard most among my team members is "Why in hell do people that were NEVER a danger to me suddenly seem to kill me 2 out of 3 fights ?"

What are the odds that suddenly this build turned very average players into monsters because of its so called "tactical" side ? To me ? None. As honestly, most of the gunfights i've been in have nothing tactical. I see guys playing in a clever way using covers. And i respect that. But imo, playing like that in precursor was rewarding just as it is now.

Still about how silly nerfing movement speed is : Let's take the heavies. how long do you think it will take to see a massive heavy flood ? They're way tougher than in precursor. Have an HMG that's way more efficient. And it was NEEDED. except now, assault or scouts can't even outmatched them with speed in a gunfight. No way to make a heavy lose its focus and over-heat its HMG through smart movement.

I got to say that for the first time, despite previous bugs, freezes, invalid fit and all, i turned off my PS3 with absolutely NO intention in going back in. Yet i played various type of FPS online : from BF, CS, MAG, a bit of COD, Unreal, Rainbow Six.

None ever gave this sensation of a game sitting its ass between two chairs.... (french expression)


Worst part is i really can't understand this brutal change in the gameplay. I dont see how a game that always was inclined to a more arcade gameplay can suddenly have its developers try and take it some other place. To me it's a bit like a gaming suicide.

Also, i red someone who said that at CQC strafing was still valid but seriously, it may be where it's the most painfull imo.


To finish, thanks for this thread. it's clean and filled with smart interventions.

True, I was giving suits one dimension, you are correct you could do shotguns and go hunting. In fact with this build, with scanners and not being able to see your opponents until they attack makes it a viable tactic. These are all good suggestions for others to run with if they want the speed of a scout suit.

I'm sorry I used Halo for its most basic of gameplay. I personally detest all things Halo, I find the single player game to be amazing but the multiplayer to be a boring game at best. Its been years since I have had Halo night, thank god! But you're correct planets had nothing to do with it. Its all about the lore (lol) of being a Spartan..

But Halo did have strafing and it was a viable tactic of game play. Agree the first builds strafing was over the top, but now its almost gone.

Your question is "shouldn't we be able to move fairly quick and efficient around the battle?" If I have a 50 pound suit on me, then no not really, but if you believe in the lore of Halo then they are also super soldiers with Captain Americas strength in each of those suits.

Again not hating on Halo (sorry if it seems that way), or on COD. But Dust needs to be better then either of them by taking the best they offer and throwing away the rest. I want to strafe a little more then we currently have, but I don't want the bunny hoppers from Halo either. Middle ground but where is it?

So I think we are coming down to suits and speed of those suits. The strafing is all equal in all the suits, when it should be

Scout>Assault>Logistics>Heavy as far as speed of strafing and movement. But thats not the case, as others have pointed out, all the suits have the same strafing speed.

I also agree with a previous post, weapons and strafing should be tied in somehow. If I have a heavy machine gun or Forge gun, that should change my strafing speed, while a SMG should be lighter and offer more strafing speed.


CCP is any of the devs reading this thread, just a yes or no would be sufficient for us all, we just want to make sure our threads that are civil discussion are not falling on deaf ears.

+10000

So I think we are coming down to suits and speed of those suits. The strafing is all equal in all the suits, when it should be

Scout>Assault>Logistics>Heavy as far as speed of strafing and movement. But thats not the case, as others have pointed out, all the suits have the same strafing speed.

I also agree with a previous post, weapons and strafing should be tied in somehow. If I have a heavy machine gun or Forge gun, that should change my strafing speed, while a SMG should be lighter and offer more strafing speed.


CCP is any of the devs reading this thread, just a yes or no would be sufficient for us all, we just want to make sure our threads that are civil discussion are not falling on deaf ears.

Seems the only way to get a response is to post drivel and not discuss in a rational and mature way.

Nice thread

Battlefield is an acrade shooter...

Well i guess to some extent Battlefield could be considered arcady if you look at ARMA or operation flash point but in grand scheme of video games its leaning toward the tactical side a damn site more than the arcady,

yes iam realy suprised/pleased that this fourm hasnt been turned into a flame war well done Deadpool on a incredibly constructive forum and thanks to others on it for not resorting to trolling and keeping a open mind keeping it neutral/neutralish any way

@ deadpool you posted in your own thread 35 times

LOL way to BUMP a stupid thread

Way to count. Can you go to 100 yet?

Morning Everyone,

Well time for a new thread to discuss some of the topics about the game since the Codex build came out.

Gun Game Types - A large portion of us have been playing PC and Console games for over 10 years (many longer). So let talk about the types of gun game and then how does that translate into Dust 514.

Arcade Shooter vs Tactical Shooter (Dancing in the box or Camping in the corner)

Arcade Shooter is like Halo, where you throw out any real world forces a good example of this is Gravity. Gravity changes games you play so much, that just a simple tweak in it makes a HUGE difference. Halo and games like it, don't take into consideration gravity as you can jump and dance in the box to move away from projectiles. This is a very unrealistic type of game playing but one that has been around for 10+ years now. Last build we were closer to this style of play. Many Veteran players or advanced players prefer this style of play as it requires quicker reflexes and a style of movement often called dancing in the box. This style requires more skill and less gear to win.

Tactical Shooter - Examples of this are Rainbow 6, Battlefield to get an idea of what I am talking about. Even to a certain extent CoD series is a tactical shooter. Tactical shooters are realistic, they suggest tactics and caution then quick reflexes. Many have called these types "Solider Sims" as they try to be as real life as possible. As of this build we are closer to this then to Arcade shooters. Because of the ultra realism of this style of play, you don't dance in the box, instead you find the best positions on the map and find targets to kill. The fear of most Bunny players is that this is less based on skill and more based on your weapon and gear, meaning if two players of equal skill are fighting the one with better gear and weapon always wins.

Now most of us have played both styles of game play. If you started on PC you kinda got the best of both worlds and learned how to adapt. But if you played on console the major type of game play was the CoD and Halo arcade style. This lead to many styles of players on both console and PC. All of these styles are present in the games we play, from CoD campers to bunny hopping Halo players. I'm not saying you are one or the other, in fact if you played all of these types I would assume you have a hybrid playing style.

Look we all joke about CoD players, the CoD campers etc. Really they took what was given to them and found ways for it to work. We laugh at them for doing it, we make fun of them but they laugh at the Bunnies for the same reason. Bunnies are what we have seen in Halo and Dust (last build) then move fast enough to avoid bullets in combat. Some call it dancing in the box, or bunny hopping around. Scouts in the last build that could move forward, backward and strafe side to side with the same speed. CoD players laugh at bunny players and say thats just a cheap tactic to avoid being hit, but again these are just players taking advantage of the games they previously played. Ok, so now we have the two main sides to this, we can sorta see how they as players got to the style they play.

Ok, lets bring this into Dust now. The first few builds were Bunny style of playing which many players liked, whiles others begged for a change in this. The players who asked for this change in theory wanted a more realistic gun game then just another Halo remake. But now that we have the more realistic gun game, the Bunny players are calling it a CoD clone.

So what do we do? How do we find a middle ground? is there a middle ground.

I've taken the time to read all of the posts by players today, prior to writing this to understand what you are all saying. From what I am reading players are in two camps, Bunny hoppers and Tactical Sim. But there is a third option, some where in the middle. (god I hope there is)

As I played yesterday, I noticed the difference in gun game. I noticed much less bunny and more tactical. But I could still dance in the box, but not really jump in the box. Dancing in the box is not IMO the same as bunny dancing. Dancing in the box, is the oldest form of bunny hopping. There is no jumping, but just movement of half inch or inch in one direction then another to avoid bullet contact is still there. Though considerable slower, possibly to slow at this moment but it is still possible to dance in the box.

CCP like most companies listens to its player base. CCP though falls into the mistake that all gaming companies make, they listen but then they overdue the change. So we basically go from one extreme to the other extreme. You can see this change in the forums, you can easily find the tactical players vs the bunny players in the forums now that you understand them.

CCP I hope you're reading this, because I think you have the chance to make both happy. But you need to find your happy place (Yes Happy Gilmore reference), find the middle ground on movement speed, to where Bunny players can still move enough to cater to their style of play but not so much that tactical players see it and wonder if the player they are fighting is a Kangaroo or a real human. You're not to far off, but you need to find this to make both sides ok with your game going to launch.

Ok, I'm done rambling on, but I wanted everyone on here to read what the main issue of this build is.

Don't take sides to this discussion, find ways to solve the problem not make it worse with bickering and QQ threads.

Devs don't cater to QQ threads, they cater to intelligent conversations about subjects, trust me been working forums for years now and good threads always get devs attention then " CCP sucks, CCP I hate you threads".

Ok, I've got to get back to work. So I let you guys at it.

KCCO
DP

I really like this thread and think you have thought it out really well.

I am one of the people complaining about the movement nerf, and I have to admit I started playing shooters by playing Halo. I love being able to move around better. I attribute it to a soldier being in a mech suit.

I think you are right and they just went too far and need to come back a bit. It feel way too stiff right now, as if my merc lost the ability to twist at the waist.

IMO i would say add a skill that increases strafe speed or jump height or agility but at a sacrifice to accuracy. However I do prefer tactical just because even in the future I feel that a better, stronger damage rate weather it is laser or a round would be the winner, and if you asked any soldier if side strafing would raise you chances of survival, they would laugh in your face. But to compromise I feel a skill tree at the sacrifice of accuracy would allow for both players to chose their preferred playing style.

My name is Nova Knife and I approve this thread.

Some people aren't fans of the lessened speed. Personally I don't have a solid opinion on it yet. Initial impressions are that it reduces the emphasis on the movement aspect of the gunplay and focuses more on the gun/aiming aspects of gunplay. I have no problem with that.


Something people probably don't realize is that CCP does not really want a game where people can beast and go 50K+ and 0 deaths. The deaths part is more important there. Dust is going to have a fully player driven economy and people dying = people buying. Those people can still beast and get massive killcounts but the idea is that people are on more even ground and nobody can avoid death in nearly every situation just by dancing.

CCP wants dust to be a game where winning, isk efficiency, and politics/spacedrama are the driving motivational factors to play, with less emphasis on kdr. We're immortal soldiers, dying is just business as usual!

One of the suggestions I really like is a skill book that can increase strafing speed, that is one great solution to this issue.

How does that make sense compared to EVE's mechanics ? This comparison is made for a reason. Because it's mostly EVE players who have trouble dealing with the movement of ennemies in Dust 514 that complained about "dancers". Completely obliterating the fact that those parameters exists in EVE.

I would like to just add that nerfing strafing is also nerfing individual skill.

It isn't anything like a solution to this issue. All making it tied to a skill would do is put a delay in before you could expect everyone to be strafing at fast speeds again. It is entirely irrelevant to the question of whether fights should or should not emphasize strafing in the first place.



You have absolutely no evidence that this is the case and are making totally blind assertions. It isn't necessary to make things up in order to have an opinion on this issue.



It emphasizes different skills beyond the ability to rapidly move side-to-side while shooting a target doing the same. As others have said, it emphasizes tactical play over arcade-style play. It is not simply a matter of more skill-demanding versus less.

I thought about something : In Eve Online, you have speed tanking. For those who don't know what it is, here's a short but obvious explanation.

Quite frequently, fights in EVE see people orbiting around their target to ease gun tracking of their turrets. During those fights, one thing is of great importance : The opposition between the speed of your target and the tracking speed of your turret.

Thus, some fights can be very disturbing. A very fast frigate can in the end take down a battleship as its turrets wont be able to follow it properly while the frigate can peacefully kill the battleship. But speed is not the only thing that matters, there's also dealing with the distance from wich you orbit the target. The closer you get, the harder it is for the turrets to track you.

So in EVE speed and movement is of great matter in the tactical approach of a fight. You can't just say "Hey got the big ship, big guns and massive HP amount, i'll screw anything muahahaha"

=> There is a a dynamic of movement in gun fights. Dodging and adapting to target's agility


=> Now, let's transpose that to Dust 514.

We have various speed depending on the suit you pick. A bit like frigates, cruiser, BS etc... But now, we have a strafe speed that's mostly equivalent for all of them and has been overall reduced.

Wich means that no matter who you're facing, your tracking skills (AIM) dont need to adapt to the mobility of the target. Except when it's running wich is not a problem as it cant fire while doing so. While in EVE a fast ship orbiting and changing the distance from where it's firing IS firing.

How does that make sense compared to EVE's mechanics ? This comparison is made for a reason. Because it's mostly EVE players who have trouble dealing with the movement of ennemies in Dust 514 that complained about "dancers". Completely obliterating the fact that those parameters exists in EVE.

Some will say that some suits can still flee a fight faster than others, but to me, this would be closer to alignment time and throttle to reach warp speed and flee from a solar system than actual "fight skill"

Other will say that it is now fighting clever and take cover. But that's not GunFight Dynamics to me. It's basic brain game and no matter how arcadey a game is, working with covers is ALWAYS required if you're at least a decent player. I dont remember playing like a crazy rush guy in previous dust build. And if running out of cover wasnt as punishing as it was supposed to be, it was all on hit detection flaws.


So, here is my conclusion. I couldnt understand CCP's choice regarding this major cut in gunfights gameplay but i couldnt find why. Then it hit me. Because it's basically in contradiction with EVE. Give us back Precursor strafe speed.

How i feel about this is, strafing speeds were fine, the suits already took a good notch out of stamina when you jumped so you could only jump a few times anyway.. to fix the bunny hopping issue why not just decrease over all stamina for the scout while increasing its regen rate? so it could only jump like twice.. leave the strafe speed alone.

Edit: i guess to elaborate more, make running consume less stamina and jumping consume the same, with less overall stamina.

As a player who is tactical and does strafe, the speeds on the scout suit strafe speed were to high. But in doing that they also reduced all the others suits lateral movements.

Again CCP/Devs took an axe to the problem instead of a scalpel.

Adjustments need to be made in small increments not HUGE. If CCP would have done a reasonable amount of adjustment to scout suits, and left the others alone. Would we be having this conversation?

Ah i play mostly a scout with tactical/SMG for the spray n pray, so i will blame that for me only noticing it on the scout.

I'm not sure if I'm imagining it or not, but on the Assault it feels like strafing is actually slightly biased to the right?

I would like to just add that nerfing strafing is also nerfing individual skill. Add to that the use of hit scan verse ballistics and what you get is a completely different game. The continual push towards a shoot first gear quality game and away from individual skill is really concerning.

It isn't anything like a solution to this issue. All making it tied to a skill would do is put a delay in before you could expect everyone to be strafing at fast speeds again. It is entirely irrelevant to the question of whether fights should or should not emphasize strafing in the first place.



You have absolutely no evidence that this is the case and are making totally blind assertions. It isn't necessary to make things up in order to have an opinion on this issue.



It emphasizes different skills beyond the ability to rapidly move side-to-side while shooting a target doing the same. As others have said, it emphasizes tactical play over arcade-style play. It is not simply a matter of more skill-demanding versus less.

First, i agree with you that a skillbook isnt actually a good idea. It may open a breach to reach higher straf speed than we had in precursor if badly calibrate. Once more, i want to be very clear ! I, personnaly, don't want a rush and jump FPS either. I just want to feel like my character can actually pull off a decent dodge movement by straffing (as we can't prone or else) so i can be sure, when i died, that the guy in front of me is actually a good one and didnt just kill me because he started firing 1 sec before i did.
And hell, i hate bunny hopping and now it's pretty much all i can do (2-3 times) when i need some air in a fight where i can't get cover.

Precursor movement speed were perfectly fine. As i said before, the sole problem was hit detection that made some bad straffing move work anyway. I'm pretty confident that with this new improved HD, precursor straffing wouldnt be as powerfull as everyone is implying. A guy behind a cover, playing smart would beat the **** out of a strafffing guy in the open quickly IF he knows his way with aiming. If he doesnt, is that a reason to help him through slowing down the game ? REALLY not my opinion.

Nova said that this game needs people to die. Again, this improved HD would have been way sufficient to avoid people going with madmen ratio. Also, CODEX wont prevent some guy having extraordinary high ratio. (Wait till heavies wake up with this slow movement for all suits.....)

Second, regarding my "assumption", i'll let you know that i'm here for a long time and actually know where biggest posters come from : PS3 or EVE. And believe me, only a few PS3 dude bitched about straffing. I dont want to blame EVErs especially as they're not the ones making changes to the game. But i'm kinda pissed of by the movement in the game in CODEX.
Altough, in the end my comparison regarding EVE online and straf speed being more or less speed tanking in EVE is still valid.

Sorry if you took this misplace agression for you.

Once more, cause i want that to be very clear, i dont think many of us wants this game to go "light speed". Just not that slow, not to a point where i have trouble even recognizing the gun play at some point

So I think we are coming down to suits and speed of those suits. The strafing is all equal in all the suits, when it should be

Scout>Assault>Logistics>Heavy as far as speed of strafing and movement. But thats not the case, as others have pointed out, all the suits have the same strafing speed.

I also agree with a previous post, weapons and strafing should be tied in somehow. If I have a heavy machine gun or Forge gun, that should change my strafing speed, while a SMG should be lighter and offer more strafing speed.

Edit:

CCP is any of the devs reading this thread, just a yes or no would be sufficient for us all, we just want to make sure our threads that are civil discussion are not falling on deaf ears.

I was heading here to post a lengthy reply. But after reading the whole thread I can say this...

Laurent for president!!! +1 on Everything that man has written.

Hate on the field, love on the forums

thanks mate

I think the strafing speed change can be reverted now with the improved hit detection. Maybe also buff the HPs of suits too to compensate? My gun plays is gone too with this build, and I was never big on straifing to begin with. It just feels "wrong" now and I die much more that previously. Could just be down to gear right now, though. I sure hope so or I won't play this for much longer.

Ok, so you like the tactical side more. But I have to disagree with your thought on " It's easy enough to beat people with better gear than you have. You just have to play it smart", once you get better gear then it becomes less and less about skill and more about the gear you have earned.

The game has a good feel to it right now. I will admit that the movement is a little too slow, especially for Scouts. We have to remember that our Dust characters aren't restricted to "human" traits as much as we think. From what I gathered out of the Dust story-line, the clones are larger, faster and more agile than standard humans. With that kept in the back of your minds, we should be able to run faster and jump higher than normal. The only thing I would like to see change is the movement speeds have to be adjusted based on dropsuits, mods and skills. Obviously, a Scout should be able to out-manuever a Heavy any day. The strafing speed should not be the same for each suit and the mercs should be able to jump higher than an average person... with some limitations (Scouts jumping over tanks is a little extreme).

Overall, I think the game is moving in the right direction. Of course, there will be changes that we all will have to adapt to and that most people won't like simply because it's not what they're used to (see OP). It obviously warrants some discussion and I think everyone here has some very good input on the subject. With that being said, I think CCP will release a game that we will all enjoy.

Antilles Maximus
Zion TCD

How do you think that? BF is one of the most tactical games on the market. That its selling point.

But Please explain. TY