It's in a middle ground right now. It's not quite as tactical as stuff like CoD, it's not as arcade as Halo. It's in a good place. Realistic, but sci-fi realistic.

Honestly from what I played I really liked it. I feel like most of the rage threads are just QQ over not being able to roll everyone with more SP and having to...

Well... Here goes...

"Adapt or die"

Tbh if I wanted a cod type game i'd buy and play cod same with a battle field game, I wanted a dust 514 game different and deep not a run of the mill fps as ccp described it.

Guess I'll go play battlefield because thats what we got at the moment only not as sharp

well put

i dont think i could have said it better my self and just like the OP ive been playing FPs games for years 20 years give or take
both on console and on PC dont have his forum skill tho

i am a hybrid player myself due to this

i cant compare this build to the last as due to color issues the game was unplayabe for me (excluding the bugs in game)

I appreciate this thread and the attempt to analyze the reason for the opposing viewpoints. It made me realize that my previous CoD experience has biased me toward the tactical play and explains why I find the bunny hoping to be silly. I never played Halo so I have never gained a preference for zero inertia arcade style play.

@ STB DEADPOOL5241 EV

I have very very little experience with these games so I want to say thank you for explaining to me why I and so sad-face right now.

Nail on the head bud.

Well I guess I will go in search of this halo you talk of.

Not a troll for once I am actually an eve tard that only got a PS3 for dust....Man I'm so sad-face right now.

i actually play both in dust using a tactical AR with range boost for the tactical side and a smg for the dancing
the AR pays off more than the SMG like u mention due to strafing it is i little too slow 10% to 15% increase might fix that

I feel like "arcade" style shooters work much better on consoles, as controllers are more suited to run & gun instead of fine aiming.

The strafing nerf has completely wrecked my KDR. I'm officially abandoning scouts for now, as the speed and low profile now merely get me to my imminent death faster. (In combat they are now just as easy to hit as everyone else.)

How is mouse control in this build? Now that run & gun is dead and buried, accuracy is about to get much more important.

I really like this thread and think you have thought it out really well.

I am one of the people complaining about the movement nerf, and I have to admit I started playing shooters by playing Halo. I love being able to move around better. I attribute it to a soldier being in a mech suit.

I think you are right and they just went too far and need to come back a bit. It feel way too stiff right now, as if my merc lost the ability to twist at the waist.

Well ill get this out of the way straight off the bat, iam a tactical player and am from games like Battlefield, Arma, Operation flash point, Ghost recon, Rainbow 6, so my tread may be a tad biased but ill try to remain neutral for the sake of balence,

I agree that it would be good if we could find a middle ground but it is a very fine line, as it is now is tactical right up till you get in close then strafing becomes viable again, but is strafing is increased too much we have the problem that cover becomes redundent,

The common ground is a very fine line and even debatable if it is possible, after some conversations with some of the arcade camp fellas during some of the movement treads, i found them to think too highly of what their dancing skill is to them it is one of only 2 skills that matter dancing skill and tracking, but i ask what about positioning, stealth, playing to strenght of weapons (keeping target at range), using cover, flanking tactics the list can go on but i cant think of them right now they shoud be every bit as valid as those other skills no?

As it is now i think it is close enough to the fine line but if it makes the game better by all meens it should be done,

I like the suggestion of having the suits being certain playstyle assisted.

I think its a good thing you did here to try and show both sides of the coin

My biggest gripe is that the Scout was made to be faster and move better. Then they stopped it from being able to move well. Without a big ehp boost the Scout has become almost useless. Maybe I am wrong though and it just has a whole newrole. That role is no longer CQC though.

Waltzing is good with a woman but not with a gun :))

I think the frame rate fix has also made the scouts easier to hit. I am not sure but I think the Scout has a larger hit box now as well. I could be wrong of course.

I guess it just seems that a combination of things have happened. How do other suits feel when getting shot at? Are other suits easier to hit now as well?

It use to be that a Scout would be taken down at range, but that they could CQC fine because they could dance around a person. I considered that balanced because it was often the opponents fault for closing range with a CQC person.

Now it seems the Scout is not very good for CQC, and not good for range with its low ehp. So until we can turn invisible I am not sure if the Scout suit has a purpose.

The problem with this is that the game was supposed to offer versatility and options. You could make a suit be what you wanted it to be. It doesnt seem that way.

I had always thought it was sci-fi vs realistic. I was hoping this game would stay more sc-fi and not so realistic. Its kind of getting me down.

The game feels great to me right now. Dancing is obsolete because there's actual hit detection now, so the dancing doesn't save you from bullets that it shouldn't. It's easy enough to beat people with better gear than you have. You just have to play it smart.

Incidentally, I'm loving the MLT/STD/ADV readout that's put right on the UI. It definitely helps when so many of the suits look the same even at different levels.

i didnt even needed to read the entire stuff you wrote. Will do tomorrow.
But from what i saw in the introduction, and the opposition between arcade and tactical, i think i'll agree with you fully.

This codex build is clearly giving me a mixed feeling. A huge work on every aspect of the game, well done. And some adjustments in gun play that i find clumsy and annoying, nearly a deal breaker for me now that i've played longer.

Actualy Deadpool I'm 100% arcade . I loved the fast paced action and not having to camp to get kills. I was 75% scout most of the time and loved trying to keep a bead on the hostiles while dancing all over the place. The play style realy suited me and tbh I wasnt half bad at it considering my lack of experiance.

So I guess I'm not like most of the EVE crowd in that respect and I tend to get on well with the MAGTARDS which is odd also I guess.

Just spent a game camping one spot to try it out and came top of the leaderboard

My playstyle is dead this build I guess its time to set up camp or leave.

There's not much to discuss imo. I spend nearly a whole game testing movement speed by doing loooooooong straight line strafing and then doing the same loooong line moving forward. And the difference is huge.
The only way to really notice is to do a long strafe while there's absolutely no action and it feels ridiculous. almost like the guy has a handicap of some sort.

I wasnt fond of the straf\movement speed in the first build, even E3 one felt a bit too fast. Precursor was to me perfect considering hit detection was supposed to be enhanced. But Codex ? it feels like straf speed has been tone down by half.
Thus killing the skill of players that have a good science in disturbing the ennemy with smart move while maintaining good tracking of the target.

It gives me a sensation of pre-played gunfights i never had in precursor. Or, a sort of never ending cover fights due to shield and armor regen. Overall, it serves the guy with the best equipment where precursor seemed to give more possibilities during the gunfight.

I never felt that bad regarding gunplay in any dust 514 build till now.

I'll give it time. But if this is the way dust is going, i may not like it so much.

As for the movement changes i would suggest the sprint needs a 5 to 10% boost (closer to 5 tho) main reason is most people say it feels to slow and to me that is the evade "head down and get the hell out of there/to cover" dont know about the base movement speed tho id like to hear from more people from my style as at this iam above average at tactical shooters, ecceling at strategic planing such why iam trying extra hard at squad leader this time just need squad on mics, for now i think a alround minor improvement is required to base movement but not much mabye 5% this would have the strafing not equal to forward

I now realise that you are refering to 1 v 1 ultimatly the outcome would be decided from the start of the engagement due to a number of factors:

Range
weapon and its preference in range and target
playstlye, (tactical guys will have advantage at range up till about 10m or so then advantage is arcade guy)
positioning(high ground, cover, flank, )
engage advantages(such as caught them un aware with back turned so on so forth)
evasion skills(only realy work if in cqc if arcady if a tactical play could evade at range with use of cover)
Skill with weapons(both groups have different pref on how to used such as ADS and hip fire for example)
how well equiped
Unfortunatly hit detection/lag/Frame rate drops also play a wild card

So its kind of hard to say how 2 well healed skills will factor into a fire fight (sorry probably a bit off topic) but i honestly cant tell as some situations would suggest one player would win where others the other player would win, the problem i had with the strafe in last build is it was effectivly a panic move that trumped all of the above with the only way to kill them was at their own game now it has less impact so people are angry,

I think the only chance for the line to be found that is common is to find what distance straffing should be effective so that is does not trump other skills after all for a certain skill to work you first need to play it at its strenght, as it stands i think from hip straffing should only work at very close less than 10 metre maybe 8 due to gun sway that would arise from such a movement,

Id be interested to hear more opinions on how it works from OP, others from tactical camp and even the arcade guys

I thought this was one of the most civil discussions i've had seen to date, as I said before the scout suit was to agile with impossible acrobatics but now offers no advantage over assault.the strafe nerf is a good idea implemented badly and to heavy handed as in a one size fits all philosophy, it dosn't work.

I agree never played scout as I said before I actually killed all the scouts that tried to mix it with me today but the fun has gone, I used to enjoy trying to beat better players, it all comes down to who has the first hit and better gear now, sort of like Warcraft.

Gear >>> skill

I think you are seeing the suits in only one perspective, the suits are't classes which restrict you in one role . The scout isn't just made for sniping, there isn't anywhere that says that . I used scouts and fit the them with a shotgun and used my speed as my advantage , which sometimes I get the most kills in the leaderboard or I would lay down drop uplinks near objectives . One person even played a medic fit with his suit , he used his speed to quickly get in and revive and heal his teammates. I think what CCP wants is to create flexibility so players can play their own playstyle .

And I dont really think you know what your talking about when it comes to halo it has nothing to with the planet's gravity(lol you don't even hardly go to any planets in the first place , if it did it doesn't change the gameplay ) its everything to do with the lore behind the Spartans and the core gameplay for halo , mainly the core gameplay. I liked the strafing because to me it added another layer to the gunplay and skill. But also I dislike the insane strafing that was in the first build and I don't think dust was built around it like halo , quake , unreal , doom ,etc . You can't add one element the game wasn't really built around and slap it to the game and expect it to work . Imo I think the one of the reasons the some players complained about the movement in Dust is because we play as super soldier wearing incredibly advanced armor , shouldn't we be able to move fairly quick and efficient around the battle? But at the same time it has to be balanced around with the maps , player count , other suits , etc

gave another go at the build for an hour and a half, and i have serious problem with it. I'm not even refering to orbital strike farming that will most likely be taken out at some point but to this awfull feeling of having the fights pre-calculated. Last buld, there were people complaining about "players blocks". This build ? it's even worse. 2 vs 1 you dont stand a chance 98% of the time.

Obviously it seems kinda logical but in most well done FPS, a good player can deal with the situation
through skills. What i heard most among my team members is "Why in hell do people that were NEVER a danger to me suddenly seem to kill me 2 out of 3 fights ?"

What are the odds that suddenly this build turned very average players into monsters because of its so called "tactical" side ? To me ? None. As honestly, most of the gunfights i've been in have nothing tactical. I see guys playing in a clever way using covers. And i respect that. But imo, playing like that in precursor was rewarding just as it is now.

Still about how silly nerfing movement speed is : Let's take the heavies. how long do you think it will take to see a massive heavy flood ? They're way tougher than in precursor. Have an HMG that's way more efficient. And it was NEEDED. except now, assault or scouts can't even outmatched them with speed in a gunfight. No way to make a heavy lose its focus and over-heat its HMG through smart movement.

I got to say that for the first time, despite previous bugs, freezes, invalid fit and all, i turned off my PS3 with absolutely NO intention in going back in. Yet i played various type of FPS online : from BF, CS, MAG, a bit of COD, Unreal, Rainbow Six.

None ever gave this sensation of a game sitting its ass between two chairs.... (french expression)


Worst part is i really can't understand this brutal change in the gameplay. I dont see how a game that always was inclined to a more arcade gameplay can suddenly have its developers try and take it some other place. To me it's a bit like a gaming suicide.

Also, i red someone who said that at CQC strafing was still valid but seriously, it may be where it's the most painfull imo.


To finish, thanks for this thread. it's clean and filled with smart interventions.

+10000

Seems the only way to get a response is to post drivel and not discuss in a rational and mature way.

Nice thread

Battlefield is an acrade shooter...

Well i guess to some extent Battlefield could be considered arcady if you look at ARMA or operation flash point but in grand scheme of video games its leaning toward the tactical side a damn site more than the arcady,

yes iam realy suprised/pleased that this fourm hasnt been turned into a flame war well done Deadpool on a incredibly constructive forum and thanks to others on it for not resorting to trolling and keeping a open mind keeping it neutral/neutralish any way

My name is Nova Knife and I approve this thread.

Some people aren't fans of the lessened speed. Personally I don't have a solid opinion on it yet. Initial impressions are that it reduces the emphasis on the movement aspect of the gunplay and focuses more on the gun/aiming aspects of gunplay. I have no problem with that.


Something people probably don't realize is that CCP does not really want a game where people can beast and go 50K+ and 0 deaths. The deaths part is more important there. Dust is going to have a fully player driven economy and people dying = people buying. Those people can still beast and get massive killcounts but the idea is that people are on more even ground and nobody can avoid death in nearly every situation just by dancing.

CCP wants dust to be a game where winning, isk efficiency, and politics/spacedrama are the driving motivational factors to play, with less emphasis on kdr. We're immortal soldiers, dying is just business as usual!

It isn't anything like a solution to this issue. All making it tied to a skill would do is put a delay in before you could expect everyone to be strafing at fast speeds again. It is entirely irrelevant to the question of whether fights should or should not emphasize strafing in the first place.



You have absolutely no evidence that this is the case and are making totally blind assertions. It isn't necessary to make things up in order to have an opinion on this issue.



It emphasizes different skills beyond the ability to rapidly move side-to-side while shooting a target doing the same. As others have said, it emphasizes tactical play over arcade-style play. It is not simply a matter of more skill-demanding versus less.

How i feel about this is, strafing speeds were fine, the suits already took a good notch out of stamina when you jumped so you could only jump a few times anyway.. to fix the bunny hopping issue why not just decrease over all stamina for the scout while increasing its regen rate? so it could only jump like twice.. leave the strafe speed alone.

Edit: i guess to elaborate more, make running consume less stamina and jumping consume the same, with less overall stamina.

Ah i play mostly a scout with tactical/SMG for the spray n pray, so i will blame that for me only noticing it on the scout.

I'm not sure if I'm imagining it or not, but on the Assault it feels like strafing is actually slightly biased to the right?

First, i agree with you that a skillbook isnt actually a good idea. It may open a breach to reach higher straf speed than we had in precursor if badly calibrate. Once more, i want to be very clear ! I, personnaly, don't want a rush and jump FPS either. I just want to feel like my character can actually pull off a decent dodge movement by straffing (as we can't prone or else) so i can be sure, when i died, that the guy in front of me is actually a good one and didnt just kill me because he started firing 1 sec before i did.
And hell, i hate bunny hopping and now it's pretty much all i can do (2-3 times) when i need some air in a fight where i can't get cover.

Precursor movement speed were perfectly fine. As i said before, the sole problem was hit detection that made some bad straffing move work anyway. I'm pretty confident that with this new improved HD, precursor straffing wouldnt be as powerfull as everyone is implying. A guy behind a cover, playing smart would beat the **** out of a strafffing guy in the open quickly IF he knows his way with aiming. If he doesnt, is that a reason to help him through slowing down the game ? REALLY not my opinion.

Nova said that this game needs people to die. Again, this improved HD would have been way sufficient to avoid people going with madmen ratio. Also, CODEX wont prevent some guy having extraordinary high ratio. (Wait till heavies wake up with this slow movement for all suits.....)

Second, regarding my "assumption", i'll let you know that i'm here for a long time and actually know where biggest posters come from : PS3 or EVE. And believe me, only a few PS3 dude bitched about straffing. I dont want to blame EVErs especially as they're not the ones making changes to the game. But i'm kinda pissed of by the movement in the game in CODEX.
Altough, in the end my comparison regarding EVE online and straf speed being more or less speed tanking in EVE is still valid.

Sorry if you took this misplace agression for you.

Once more, cause i want that to be very clear, i dont think many of us wants this game to go "light speed". Just not that slow, not to a point where i have trouble even recognizing the gun play at some point