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Ranger SnakeBlood
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
126
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Posted - 2012.10.02 18:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
Well ill get this out of the way straight off the bat, iam a tactical player and am from games like Battlefield, Arma, Operation flash point, Ghost recon, Rainbow 6, so my tread may be a tad biased but ill try to remain neutral for the sake of balence,
I agree that it would be good if we could find a middle ground but it is a very fine line, as it is now is tactical right up till you get in close then strafing becomes viable again, but is strafing is increased too much we have the problem that cover becomes redundent,
The common ground is a very fine line and even debatable if it is possible, after some conversations with some of the arcade camp fellas during some of the movement treads, i found them to think too highly of what their dancing skill is to them it is one of only 2 skills that matter dancing skill and tracking, but i ask what about positioning, stealth, playing to strenght of weapons (keeping target at range), using cover, flanking tactics the list can go on but i cant think of them right now they shoud be every bit as valid as those other skills no?
As it is now i think it is close enough to the fine line but if it makes the game better by all meens it should be done,
I like the suggestion of having the suits being certain playstyle assisted.
I think its a good thing you did here to try and show both sides of the coin |
Ranger SnakeBlood
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
126
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 20:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
STB DEADPOOL5241 EV wrote:Ranger SnakeBlood wrote:Well ill get this out of the way straight off the bat, iam a tactical player and am from games like Battlefield, Arma, Operation flash point, Ghost recon, Rainbow 6, so my tread may be a tad biased but ill try to remain neutral for the sake of balence,
I agree that it would be good if we could find a middle ground but it is a very fine line, as it is now is tactical right up till you get in close then strafing becomes viable again, but is strafing is increased too much we have the problem that cover becomes redundent,
The common ground is a very fine line and even debatable if it is possible, after some conversations with some of the arcade camp fellas during some of the movement treads, i found them to think too highly of what their dancing skill is to them it is one of only 2 skills that matter dancing skill and tracking, but i ask what about positioning, stealth, playing to strenght of weapons (keeping target at range), using cover, flanking tactics the list can go on but i cant think of them right now they shoud be every bit as valid as those other skills no?
As it is now i think it is close enough to the fine line but if it makes the game better by all meens it should be done,
I like the suggestion of having the suits being certain playstyle assisted.
I think its a good thing you did here to try and show both sides of the coin First good reply, thanks for pointing out where you background is in this, but also staying neutral. Agree again, that the middle ground is a very, very fine line. But I think we both agree this build compared to last build there has been a shift. What % do you think the speed should be increased by? Do you think this is in all directions or just strafing? Do you think jumping/bunny hop moves should come back or just better strafe speed for better dancing in the box? Agreed again with actual tactics, but that's a part of the bigger picture of game play. While I'm referring to 1vs1 combat. While you think to highly of the players that dance, consider the fact they have spent years on their craft in many games, so to them that is the pinnacle of their style. So don't discount them for having the difference is choice of games and finding the best way to play those games. Agreed, this discussion needs to include suits and movements in those suits. Again Ty for your kind words. +1
As for the movement changes i would suggest the sprint needs a 5 to 10% boost (closer to 5 tho) main reason is most people say it feels to slow and to me that is the evade "head down and get the hell out of there/to cover" dont know about the base movement speed tho id like to hear from more people from my style as at this iam above average at tactical shooters, ecceling at strategic planing such why iam trying extra hard at squad leader this time just need squad on mics, for now i think a alround minor improvement is required to base movement but not much mabye 5% this would have the strafing not equal to forward
I now realise that you are refering to 1 v 1 ultimatly the outcome would be decided from the start of the engagement due to a number of factors:
Range
weapon and its preference in range and target
playstlye, (tactical guys will have advantage at range up till about 10m or so then advantage is arcade guy)
positioning(high ground, cover, flank, )
engage advantages(such as caught them un aware with back turned so on so forth)
evasion skills(only realy work if in cqc if arcady if a tactical play could evade at range with use of cover)
Skill with weapons(both groups have different pref on how to used such as ADS and hip fire for example)
how well equiped
Unfortunatly hit detection/lag/Frame rate drops also play a wild card
So its kind of hard to say how 2 well healed skills will factor into a fire fight (sorry probably a bit off topic) but i honestly cant tell as some situations would suggest one player would win where others the other player would win, the problem i had with the strafe in last build is it was effectivly a panic move that trumped all of the above with the only way to kill them was at their own game now it has less impact so people are angry,
I think the only chance for the line to be found that is common is to find what distance straffing should be effective so that is does not trump other skills after all for a certain skill to work you first need to play it at its strenght, as it stands i think from hip straffing should only work at very close less than 10 metre maybe 8 due to gun sway that would arise from such a movement,
Id be interested to hear more opinions on how it works from OP, others from tactical camp and even the arcade guys
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Ranger SnakeBlood
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
126
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 20:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
fenrir storm wrote:STB DEADPOOL5241 EV wrote:Please keep this conversation polite and civil. I just noticed the other thread that was closed be Devs for getting out of line. I prefer we talk and discuss this like adults with no name calling, no dumbing down replies.
I thought this was one of the most civil discussions i've had seen to date, as I said before the scout suit was to agile with impossible acrobatics but now offers no advantage over assault.the strafe nerf is a good idea implemented badly and to heavy handed as in a one size fits all philosophy, it dosn't work.
Um Assualt is a combat suit with fire fights in mind that is what it is designed for scout is a recon/sniping designed suit its not ment to go head to head with a assult or even a heavy for that matter, scouts have more ability to get to areas a assualt cant and faster at that the scout suit has 2 traditional roles that i can think of off the top of my head that is recon this is a support role every bit as much as a logi it just lacks reward and is more or less automated, the other natural role is sniper snipers ultimitaly take out dug in enemies, and provide area denial basicly stops enemies from roaming around this will attract alot of hate but thats how you know your being a good sniper, but the miricle of new eden is random fits that people make work, so effectivly a scout does not have a fire fight advantage over a assualt same as a logi doesnt |
Ranger SnakeBlood
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
126
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 20:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
fenrir storm wrote:Ranger SnakeBlood wrote:fenrir storm wrote:STB DEADPOOL5241 EV wrote:Please keep this conversation polite and civil. I just noticed the other thread that was closed be Devs for getting out of line. I prefer we talk and discuss this like adults with no name calling, no dumbing down replies.
I thought this was one of the most civil discussions i've had seen to date, as I said before the scout suit was to agile with impossible acrobatics but now offers no advantage over assault.the strafe nerf is a good idea implemented badly and to heavy handed as in a one size fits all philosophy, it dosn't work. Um Assualt is a combat suit with fire fights in mind that is what it is designed for scout is a recon/sniping designed suit its not ment to go head to head with a assult or even a heavy for that matter, scouts have more ability to get to areas a assualt cant and faster at that the scout suit has 2 traditional roles that i can think of off the top of my head that is recon this is a support role every bit as much as a logi it just lacks reward and is more or less automated, the other natural role is sniper snipers ultimitaly take out dug in enemies, and provide area denial basicly stops enemies from roaming around this will attract alot of hate but thats how you know your being a good sniper, but the miricle of new eden is random fits that people make work, so effectivly a scout does not have a fire fight advantage over a assualt same as a logi doesnt I agree never played scout as I said before I actually killed all the scouts that tried to mix it with me today but the fun has gone, I used to enjoy trying to beat better players, it all comes down to who has the first hit and better gear now, sort of like Warcraft. Gear >>> skill
May i suggest for higher gear mercs to try and flank if you can hit them in the flanks from about 30m gun is till doing good damage and you will have advantage untill they turn around, if that doesnt work try falling back to cover and hope to out shoot them ranged hit detection actualy works this build, if that fails its most likly a balencing issue then fall back to a few team mates, good luck hunting |
Ranger SnakeBlood
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
126
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 21:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
Well i guess to some extent Battlefield could be considered arcady if you look at ARMA or operation flash point but in grand scheme of video games its leaning toward the tactical side a damn site more than the arcady,
yes iam realy suprised/pleased that this fourm hasnt been turned into a flame war well done Deadpool on a incredibly constructive forum and thanks to others on it for not resorting to trolling and keeping a open mind keeping it neutral/neutralish any way |
Ranger SnakeBlood
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
126
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 18:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
Free Beers wrote:I would like to just add that nerfing strafing is also nerfing individual skill. Add to that the use of hit scan verse ballistics and what you get is a completely different game. The continual push towards a shoot first gear quality game and away from individual skill is really concerning.
I hate that attitude that some of ye have about oh its nerfing skil,l wrong its nerfing a if not 2 skills evading and tracking(debatably) there are far more skills that have been brought up previously, while i agree that it was over nerfed and that strafe speed should be Scout>assult>logi>heavy, if this was implemented as strafing is fixed to the line then their should not be modules or skills to increase this as then it would be made imbalenced,
Another thing to the person talking about speed tanking in eve and saying straffing is dusts version of that, i have a few opinions that are flawed with your logic
In eve we fly ships in dust we are soldiers there is a massive difference
EVE is lock and fire, dust is manual
A battle ship or hell even a BC vrs frig cant be compared to heavy or assult vrs scout because in relation a scout hasfar more armour in relation to a heavy than a frig to a BS or BC
In eve ships can be fitted to counter such tactics using tacle tactics webs so on so forth but in DUST we do not have ways to tackle yet
In most cases of frig vrs BC or BS where frig wins the BC or BS was not fitted to deal with them
Iam not trying to take away from the comparision but some elements were left out, if anything this tread is thorough |
Ranger SnakeBlood
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
126
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 19:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mitchman 514 wrote:I think the strafing speed change can be reverted now with the improved hit detection. Maybe also buff the HPs of suits too to compensate? My gun plays is gone too with this build, and I was never big on straifing to begin with. It just feels "wrong" now and I die much more that previously. Could just be down to gear right now, though. I sure hope so or I won't play this for much longer.
Well the previous builds hit detection was not working so in general most players could not take down a target at any range other than close, which meens people have built play styles that while it worked fine then and there now that everyone has a equal chance to make the shot not only the fellas that realised we had to aim 6 feet infront of the target, it will take a while to get used to new more deadly battlefield (personaly i think its welcome no longer can i just run out into the open and expect jumping around to keep me alive)
Also after playing it for quite a while today i think the slower movement has made the game better it meens that it takes more skill to get away with dodging at cqc its stillpossible but know you have to mix it up a bit more than left right left got to make it more irregular or at least if using assult iam not sure about scouts have not tried it yet, but there are still people that can strafe well in this build it just takes a new method
Another bit of advice to anyone saying its gone too slow try the assult type 2 suit it has a much better straffing speed ive tried that out recently and found it was quicker than i expected |
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