gave another go at the build for an hour and a half, and i have serious problem with it. I'm not even refering to orbital strike farming that will most likely be taken out at some point but to this awfull feeling of having the fights pre-calculated. Last buld, there were people complaining about "players blocks". This build ? it's even worse. 2 vs 1 you dont stand a chance 98% of the time.

Obviously it seems kinda logical but in most well done FPS, a good player can deal with the situation
through skills. What i heard most among my team members is "Why in hell do people that were NEVER a danger to me suddenly seem to kill me 2 out of 3 fights ?"

What are the odds that suddenly this build turned very average players into monsters because of its so called "tactical" side ? To me ? None. As honestly, most of the gunfights i've been in have nothing tactical. I see guys playing in a clever way using covers. And i respect that. But imo, playing like that in precursor was rewarding just as it is now.

Still about how silly nerfing movement speed is : Let's take the heavies. how long do you think it will take to see a massive heavy flood ? They're way tougher than in precursor. Have an HMG that's way more efficient. And it was NEEDED. except now, assault or scouts can't even outmatched them with speed in a gunfight. No way to make a heavy lose its focus and over-heat its HMG through smart movement.

I got to say that for the first time, despite previous bugs, freezes, invalid fit and all, i turned off my PS3 with absolutely NO intention in going back in. Yet i played various type of FPS online : from BF, CS, MAG, a bit of COD, Unreal, Rainbow Six.

None ever gave this sensation of a game sitting its ass between two chairs.... (french expression)


Worst part is i really can't understand this brutal change in the gameplay. I dont see how a game that always was inclined to a more arcade gameplay can suddenly have its developers try and take it some other place. To me it's a bit like a gaming suicide.

Also, i red someone who said that at CQC strafing was still valid but seriously, it may be where it's the most painfull imo.


To finish, thanks for this thread. it's clean and filled with smart interventions.

True, I was giving suits one dimension, you are correct you could do shotguns and go hunting. In fact with this build, with scanners and not being able to see your opponents until they attack makes it a viable tactic. These are all good suggestions for others to run with if they want the speed of a scout suit.

I'm sorry I used Halo for its most basic of gameplay. I personally detest all things Halo, I find the single player game to be amazing but the multiplayer to be a boring game at best. Its been years since I have had Halo night, thank god! But you're correct planets had nothing to do with it. Its all about the lore (lol) of being a Spartan..

But Halo did have strafing and it was a viable tactic of game play. Agree the first builds strafing was over the top, but now its almost gone.

Your question is "shouldn't we be able to move fairly quick and efficient around the battle?" If I have a 50 pound suit on me, then no not really, but if you believe in the lore of Halo then they are also super soldiers with Captain Americas strength in each of those suits.

Again not hating on Halo (sorry if it seems that way), or on COD. But Dust needs to be better then either of them by taking the best they offer and throwing away the rest. I want to strafe a little more then we currently have, but I don't want the bunny hoppers from Halo either. Middle ground but where is it?

So I think we are coming down to suits and speed of those suits. The strafing is all equal in all the suits, when it should be

Scout>Assault>Logistics>Heavy as far as speed of strafing and movement. But thats not the case, as others have pointed out, all the suits have the same strafing speed.

I also agree with a previous post, weapons and strafing should be tied in somehow. If I have a heavy machine gun or Forge gun, that should change my strafing speed, while a SMG should be lighter and offer more strafing speed.


CCP is any of the devs reading this thread, just a yes or no would be sufficient for us all, we just want to make sure our threads that are civil discussion are not falling on deaf ears.

+10000

So I think we are coming down to suits and speed of those suits. The strafing is all equal in all the suits, when it should be

Scout>Assault>Logistics>Heavy as far as speed of strafing and movement. But thats not the case, as others have pointed out, all the suits have the same strafing speed.

I also agree with a previous post, weapons and strafing should be tied in somehow. If I have a heavy machine gun or Forge gun, that should change my strafing speed, while a SMG should be lighter and offer more strafing speed.


CCP is any of the devs reading this thread, just a yes or no would be sufficient for us all, we just want to make sure our threads that are civil discussion are not falling on deaf ears.

Seems the only way to get a response is to post drivel and not discuss in a rational and mature way.

Nice thread

Battlefield is an acrade shooter...

Well i guess to some extent Battlefield could be considered arcady if you look at ARMA or operation flash point but in grand scheme of video games its leaning toward the tactical side a damn site more than the arcady,

yes iam realy suprised/pleased that this fourm hasnt been turned into a flame war well done Deadpool on a incredibly constructive forum and thanks to others on it for not resorting to trolling and keeping a open mind keeping it neutral/neutralish any way

@ deadpool you posted in your own thread 35 times

LOL way to BUMP a stupid thread

Way to count. Can you go to 100 yet?

Morning Everyone,

Well time for a new thread to discuss some of the topics about the game since the Codex build came out.

Gun Game Types - A large portion of us have been playing PC and Console games for over 10 years (many longer). So let talk about the types of gun game and then how does that translate into Dust 514.

Arcade Shooter vs Tactical Shooter (Dancing in the box or Camping in the corner)

Arcade Shooter is like Halo, where you throw out any real world forces a good example of this is Gravity. Gravity changes games you play so much, that just a simple tweak in it makes a HUGE difference. Halo and games like it, don't take into consideration gravity as you can jump and dance in the box to move away from projectiles. This is a very unrealistic type of game playing but one that has been around for 10+ years now. Last build we were closer to this style of play. Many Veteran players or advanced players prefer this style of play as it requires quicker reflexes and a style of movement often called dancing in the box. This style requires more skill and less gear to win.

Tactical Shooter - Examples of this are Rainbow 6, Battlefield to get an idea of what I am talking about. Even to a certain extent CoD series is a tactical shooter. Tactical shooters are realistic, they suggest tactics and caution then quick reflexes. Many have called these types "Solider Sims" as they try to be as real life as possible. As of this build we are closer to this then to Arcade shooters. Because of the ultra realism of this style of play, you don't dance in the box, instead you find the best positions on the map and find targets to kill. The fear of most Bunny players is that this is less based on skill and more based on your weapon and gear, meaning if two players of equal skill are fighting the one with better gear and weapon always wins.

Now most of us have played both styles of game play. If you started on PC you kinda got the best of both worlds and learned how to adapt. But if you played on console the major type of game play was the CoD and Halo arcade style. This lead to many styles of players on both console and PC. All of these styles are present in the games we play, from CoD campers to bunny hopping Halo players. I'm not saying you are one or the other, in fact if you played all of these types I would assume you have a hybrid playing style.

Look we all joke about CoD players, the CoD campers etc. Really they took what was given to them and found ways for it to work. We laugh at them for doing it, we make fun of them but they laugh at the Bunnies for the same reason. Bunnies are what we have seen in Halo and Dust (last build) then move fast enough to avoid bullets in combat. Some call it dancing in the box, or bunny hopping around. Scouts in the last build that could move forward, backward and strafe side to side with the same speed. CoD players laugh at bunny players and say thats just a cheap tactic to avoid being hit, but again these are just players taking advantage of the games they previously played. Ok, so now we have the two main sides to this, we can sorta see how they as players got to the style they play.

Ok, lets bring this into Dust now. The first few builds were Bunny style of playing which many players liked, whiles others begged for a change in this. The players who asked for this change in theory wanted a more realistic gun game then just another Halo remake. But now that we have the more realistic gun game, the Bunny players are calling it a CoD clone.

So what do we do? How do we find a middle ground? is there a middle ground.

I've taken the time to read all of the posts by players today, prior to writing this to understand what you are all saying. From what I am reading players are in two camps, Bunny hoppers and Tactical Sim. But there is a third option, some where in the middle. (god I hope there is)

As I played yesterday, I noticed the difference in gun game. I noticed much less bunny and more tactical. But I could still dance in the box, but not really jump in the box. Dancing in the box is not IMO the same as bunny dancing. Dancing in the box, is the oldest form of bunny hopping. There is no jumping, but just movement of half inch or inch in one direction then another to avoid bullet contact is still there. Though considerable slower, possibly to slow at this moment but it is still possible to dance in the box.

CCP like most companies listens to its player base. CCP though falls into the mistake that all gaming companies make, they listen but then they overdue the change. So we basically go from one extreme to the other extreme. You can see this change in the forums, you can easily find the tactical players vs the bunny players in the forums now that you understand them.

CCP I hope you're reading this, because I think you have the chance to make both happy. But you need to find your happy place (Yes Happy Gilmore reference), find the middle ground on movement speed, to where Bunny players can still move enough to cater to their style of play but not so much that tactical players see it and wonder if the player they are fighting is a Kangaroo or a real human. You're not to far off, but you need to find this to make both sides ok with your game going to launch.

Ok, I'm done rambling on, but I wanted everyone on here to read what the main issue of this build is.

Don't take sides to this discussion, find ways to solve the problem not make it worse with bickering and QQ threads.

Devs don't cater to QQ threads, they cater to intelligent conversations about subjects, trust me been working forums for years now and good threads always get devs attention then " CCP sucks, CCP I hate you threads".

Ok, I've got to get back to work. So I let you guys at it.

KCCO
DP

I really like this thread and think you have thought it out really well.

I am one of the people complaining about the movement nerf, and I have to admit I started playing shooters by playing Halo. I love being able to move around better. I attribute it to a soldier being in a mech suit.

I think you are right and they just went too far and need to come back a bit. It feel way too stiff right now, as if my merc lost the ability to twist at the waist.

IMO i would say add a skill that increases strafe speed or jump height or agility but at a sacrifice to accuracy. However I do prefer tactical just because even in the future I feel that a better, stronger damage rate weather it is laser or a round would be the winner, and if you asked any soldier if side strafing would raise you chances of survival, they would laugh in your face. But to compromise I feel a skill tree at the sacrifice of accuracy would allow for both players to chose their preferred playing style.

My name is Nova Knife and I approve this thread.

Some people aren't fans of the lessened speed. Personally I don't have a solid opinion on it yet. Initial impressions are that it reduces the emphasis on the movement aspect of the gunplay and focuses more on the gun/aiming aspects of gunplay. I have no problem with that.


Something people probably don't realize is that CCP does not really want a game where people can beast and go 50K+ and 0 deaths. The deaths part is more important there. Dust is going to have a fully player driven economy and people dying = people buying. Those people can still beast and get massive killcounts but the idea is that people are on more even ground and nobody can avoid death in nearly every situation just by dancing.

CCP wants dust to be a game where winning, isk efficiency, and politics/spacedrama are the driving motivational factors to play, with less emphasis on kdr. We're immortal soldiers, dying is just business as usual!