DUST Search - Dust FPS, a tale of two gun types. [Open Discussion]

STB DEADPOOL5241 EV wrote:

Laurent Cazaderon wrote:

gave another go at the build for an hour and a half, and i have serious problem with it. I'm not even refering to orbital strike farming that will most likely be taken out at some point but to this awfull feeling of having the fights pre-calculated. Last buld, there were people complaining about "players blocks". This build ? it's even worse. 2 vs 1 you dont stand a chance 98% of the time.

Obviously it seems kinda logical but in most well done FPS, a good player can deal with the situation
through skills. What i heard most among my team members is "Why in hell do people that were NEVER a danger to me suddenly seem to kill me 2 out of 3 fights ?"

What are the odds that suddenly this build turned very average players into monsters because of its so called "tactical" side ? To me ? None. As honestly, most of the gunfights i've been in have nothing tactical. I see guys playing in a clever way using covers. And i respect that. But imo, playing like that in precursor was rewarding just as it is now.

Still about how silly nerfing movement speed is : Let's take the heavies. how long do you think it will take to see a massive heavy flood ? They're way tougher than in precursor. Have an HMG that's way more efficient. And it was NEEDED. except now, assault or scouts can't even outmatched them with speed in a gunfight. No way to make a heavy lose its focus and over-heat its HMG through smart movement.

I got to say that for the first time, despite previous bugs, freezes, invalid fit and all, i turned off my PS3 with absolutely NO intention in going back in. Yet i played various type of FPS online : from BF, CS, MAG, a bit of COD, Unreal, Rainbow Six.

None ever gave this sensation of a game sitting its ass between two chairs.... (french expression)

Worst part is i really can't understand this brutal change in the gameplay. I dont see how a game that always was inclined to a more arcade gameplay can suddenly have its developers try and take it some other place. To me it's a bit like a gaming suicide.

Also, i red someone who said that at CQC strafing was still valid but seriously, it may be where it's the most painfull imo.

To finish, thanks for this thread. it's clean and filled with smart interventions.

So I think we are coming down to suits and speed of those suits. The strafing is all equal in all the suits, when it should be

Scout>Assault>Logistics>Heavy as far as speed of strafing and movement. But thats not the case, as others have pointed out, all the suits have the same strafing speed.

I also agree with a previous post, weapons and strafing should be tied in somehow. If I have a heavy machine gun or Forge gun, that should change my strafing speed, while a SMG should be lighter and offer more strafing speed.

CCP is any of the devs reading this thread, just a yes or no would be sufficient for us all, we just want to make sure our threads that are civil discussion are not falling on deaf ears.


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Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.10.02 19:26:00 - [1] - Quote i didnt even needed to read the entire stuff you wrote. Will do tomorrow. But from what i saw in the introduction, and the opposition between arcade and tactical, i think i'll agree with you fully. This codex build is clearly giving me a mixed feeling. A huge work on every aspect of the game, well done. And some adjustments in gun play that i find clumsy and annoying, nearly a deal breaker for me now that i've played longer.
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.10.02 19:44:00 - [2] - Quote STB DEADPOOL5241 EV wrote: Laurent Cazaderon wrote: i didnt even needed to read the entire stuff you wrote. Will do tomorrow. But from what i saw in the introduction, and the opposition between arcade and tactical, i think i'll agree with you fully. This codex build is clearly giving me a mixed feeling. A huge work on every aspect of the game, well done. And some adjustments in gun play that i find clumsy and annoying, nearly a deal breaker for me now that i've played longer. Suggestion to everyone, give this build time. Lets come back from a weekend of playing and see how we all feel about the movement speed, maybe it will get better as we play or become more obvious it needs work. There's not much to discuss imo. I spend nearly a whole game testing movement speed by doing loooooooong straight line strafing and then doing the same loooong line moving forward. And the difference is huge. The only way to really notice is to do a long strafe while there's absolutely no action and it feels ridiculous. almost like the guy has a handicap of some sort. I wasnt fond of the straf\movement speed in the first build, even E3 one felt a bit too fast. Precursor was to me perfect considering hit detection was supposed to be enhanced. But Codex ? it feels like straf speed has been tone down by half. Thus killing the skill of players that have a good science in disturbing the ennemy with smart move while maintaining good tracking of the target. It gives me a sensation of pre-played gunfights i never had in precursor. Or, a sort of never ending cover fights due to shield and armor regen. Overall, it serves the guy with the best equipment where precursor seemed to give more possibilities during the gunfight. I never felt that bad regarding gunplay in any dust 514 build till now. I'll give it time. But if this is the way dust is going, i may not like it so much.
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.10.02 21:10:00 - [3] - Quote gave another go at the build for an hour and a half, and i have serious problem with it. I'm not even refering to orbital strike farming that will most likely be taken out at some point but to this awfull feeling of having the fights pre-calculated. Last buld, there were people complaining about "players blocks". This build ? it's even worse. 2 vs 1 you dont stand a chance 98% of the time. Obviously it seems kinda logical but in most well done FPS, a good player can deal with the situation through skills. What i heard most among my team members is "Why in hell do people that were NEVER a danger to me suddenly seem to kill me 2 out of 3 fights ?" What are the odds that suddenly this build turned very average players into monsters because of its so called "tactical" side ? To me ? None. As honestly, most of the gunfights i've been in have nothing tactical. I see guys playing in a clever way using covers. And i respect that. But imo, playing like that in precursor was rewarding just as it is now. Still about how silly nerfing movement speed is : Let's take the heavies. how long do you think it will take to see a massive heavy flood ? They're way tougher than in precursor. Have an HMG that's way more efficient. And it was NEEDED. except now, assault or scouts can't even outmatched them with speed in a gunfight. No way to make a heavy lose its focus and over-heat its HMG through smart movement. I got to say that for the first time, despite previous bugs, freezes, invalid fit and all, i turned off my PS3 with absolutely NO intention in going back in. Yet i played various type of FPS online : from BF, CS, MAG, a bit of COD, Unreal, Rainbow Six. None ever gave this sensation of a game sitting its ass between two chairs.... (french expression) Worst part is i really can't understand this brutal change in the gameplay. I dont see how a game that always was inclined to a more arcadey gameplay can suddenly have its developpers try and take it some other place. To me it's a bit like a gaming suicide. Also, i red someone who said that at CQC straffing was still valid but seriously, it may be where it's the most painfull imo. To finish, thanks for this thread. it's clean and filled with smart interventions.
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.10.02 21:21:00 - [4] - Quote STB DEADPOOL5241 EV wrote: Laurent Cazaderon wrote: gave another go at the build for an hour and a half, and i have serious problem with it. I'm not even refering to orbital strike farming that will most likely be taken out at some point but to this awfull feeling of having the fights pre-calculated. Last buld, there were people complaining about "players blocks". This build ? it's even worse. 2 vs 1 you dont stand a chance 98% of the time. Obviously it seems kinda logical but in most well done FPS, a good player can deal with the situation through skills. What i heard most among my team members is "Why in hell do people that were NEVER a danger to me suddenly seem to kill me 2 out of 3 fights ?" What are the odds that suddenly this build turned very average players into monsters because of its so called "tactical" side ? To me ? None. As honestly, most of the gunfights i've been in have nothing tactical. I see guys playing in a clever way using covers. And i respect that. But imo, playing like that in precursor was rewarding just as it is now. Still about how silly nerfing movement speed is : Let's take the heavies. how long do you think it will take to see a massive heavy flood ? They're way tougher than in precursor. Have an HMG that's way more efficient. And it was NEEDED. except now, assault or scouts can't even outmatched them with speed in a gunfight. No way to make a heavy lose its focus and over-heat its HMG through smart movement. I got to say that for the first time, despite previous bugs, freezes, invalid fit and all, i turned off my PS3 with absolutely NO intention in going back in. Yet i played various type of FPS online : from BF, CS, MAG, a bit of COD, Unreal, Rainbow Six. None ever gave this sensation of a game sitting its ass between two chairs.... (french expression) Worst part is i really can't understand this brutal change in the gameplay. I dont see how a game that always was inclined to a more arcade gameplay can suddenly have its developers try and take it some other place. To me it's a bit like a gaming suicide. Also, i red someone who said that at CQC strafing was still valid but seriously, it may be where it's the most painfull imo. To finish, thanks for this thread. it's clean and filled with smart interventions. So I think we are coming down to suits and speed of those suits. The strafing is all equal in all the suits, when it should be Scout>Assault>Logistics>Heavy as far as speed of strafing and movement. But thats not the case, as others have pointed out, all the suits have the same strafing speed. I also agree with a previous post, weapons and strafing should be tied in somehow. If I have a heavy machine gun or Forge gun, that should change my strafing speed, while a SMG should be lighter and offer more strafing speed. CCP is any of the devs reading this thread, just a yes or no would be sufficient for us all, we just want to make sure our threads that are civil discussion are not falling on deaf ears. +10000
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.10.03 08:13:00 - [5] - Quote I thought about something : In Eve Online, you have speed tanking. For those who don't know what it is, here's a short but obvious explanation. Quite frequently, fights in EVE see people orbiting around their target to ease gun tracking of their turrets. During those fights, one thing is of great importance : The opposition between the speed of your target and the tracking speed of your turret. Thus, some fights can be very disturbing. A very fast frigate can in the end take down a battleship as its turrets wont be able to follow it properly while the frigate can peacefully kill the battleship. But speed is not the only thing that matters, there's also dealing with the distance from wich you orbit the target. The closer you get, the harder it is for the turrets to track you. So in EVE speed and movement is of great matter in the tactical approach of a fight. You can't just say "Hey got the big ship, big guns and massive HP amount, i'll screw anything muahahaha" => There is a a dynamic of movement in gun fights. Dodging and adapting to target's agility => Now, let's transpose that to Dust 514. We have various speed depending on the suit you pick. A bit like frigates, cruiser, BS etc... But now, we have a strafe speed that's mostly equivalent for all of them and has been overall reduced. Wich means that no matter who you're facing, your tracking skills (AIM) dont need to adapt to the mobility of the target. Except when it's running wich is not a problem as it cant fire while doing so. While in EVE a fast ship orbiting and changing the distance from where it's firing IS firing. How does that make sense compared to EVE's mechanics ? This comparison is made for a reason. Because it's mostly EVE players who have trouble dealing with the movement of ennemies in Dust 514 that complained about "dancers". Completely obliterating the fact that those parameters exists in EVE. Some will say that some suits can still flee a fight faster than others, but to me, this would be closer to alignment time and throttle to reach warp speed and flee from a solar system than actual "fight skill" Other will say that it is now fighting clever and take cover. But that's not GunFight Dynamics to me. It's basic brain game and no matter how arcadey a game is, working with covers is ALWAYS required if you're at least a decent player. I dont remember playing like a crazy rush guy in previous dust build. And if running out of cover wasnt as punishing as it was supposed to be, it was all on hit detection flaws. So, here is my conclusion. I couldnt understand CCP's choice regarding this major cut in gunfights gameplay but i couldnt find why. Then it hit me. Because it's basically in contradiction with EVE. Give us back Precursor strafe speed.
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.10.03 18:52:00 - [6] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: STB DEADPOOL5241 EV wrote: One of the suggestions I really like is a skill book that can increase strafing speed, that is one great solution to this issue. It isn't anything like a solution to this issue. All making it tied to a skill would do is put a delay in before you could expect everyone to be strafing at fast speeds again. It is entirely irrelevant to the question of whether fights should or should not emphasize strafing in the first place. Laurent Cazaderon wrote: How does that make sense compared to EVE's mechanics ? This comparison is made for a reason. Because it's mostly EVE players who have trouble dealing with the movement of ennemies in Dust 514 that complained about "dancers". Completely obliterating the fact that those parameters exists in EVE. You have absolutely no evidence that this is the case and are making totally blind assertions. It isn't necessary to make things up in order to have an opinion on this issue. Free Beers wrote: I would like to just add that nerfing strafing is also nerfing individual skill. It emphasizes different skills beyond the ability to rapidly move side-to-side while shooting a target doing the same. As others have said, it emphasizes tactical play over arcade-style play. It is not simply a matter of more skill-demanding versus less. First, i agree with you that a skillbook isnt actually a good idea. It may open a breach to reach higher straf speed than we had in precursor if badly calibrate. Once more, i want to be very clear ! I, personnaly, don't want a rush and jump FPS either. I just want to feel like my character can actually pull off a decent dodge movement by straffing (as we can't prone or else) so i can be sure, when i died, that the guy in front of me is actually a good one and didnt just kill me because he started firing 1 sec before i did. And hell, i hate bunny hopping and now it's pretty much all i can do (2-3 times) when i need some air in a fight where i can't get cover. Precursor movement speed were perfectly fine. As i said before, the sole problem was hit detection that made some bad straffing move work anyway. I'm pretty confident that with this new improved HD, precursor straffing wouldnt be as powerfull as everyone is implying. A guy behind a cover, playing smart would beat the **** out of a strafffing guy in the open quickly IF he knows his way with aiming. If he doesnt, is that a reason to help him through slowing down the game ? REALLY not my opinion. Nova said that this game needs people to die. Again, this improved HD would have been way sufficient to avoid people going with madmen ratio. Also, CODEX wont prevent some guy having extraordinary high ratio. (Wait till heavies wake up with this slow movement for all suits.....) Second, regarding my "assumption", i'll let you know that i'm here for a long time and actually know where biggest posters come from : PS3 or EVE. And believe me, only a few PS3 dude bitched about straffing. I dont want to blame EVErs especially as they're not the ones making changes to the game. But i'm kinda pissed of by the movement in the game in CODEX. Altough, in the end my comparison regarding EVE online and straf speed being more or less speed tanking in EVE is still valid. Sorry if you took this misplace agression for you. Once more, cause i want that to be very clear, i dont think many of us wants this game to go "light speed". Just not that slow, not to a point where i have trouble even recognizing the gun play at some point
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.10.04 06:21:00 - [7] - Quote Tony Calif wrote: I was heading here to post a lengthy reply. But after reading the whole thread I can say this... Laurent for president!!! +1 on Everything that man has written. Hate on the field, love on the forums thanks mate