DUST Search - We need to have a serious talk about the Sagaris.

Nova Knife wrote:

The main problem with tier 2 tanks, is that people don't know how to kill them. People expect to kill a marauder solo, and unless you are dealing with a not so good tank driver, that simply will not happen in 9/10 cases. It is definitely possible to solo these tanks, but very difficult. That is proper!

Lay remote explosive traps on roads, hit them with a swarm launcher a few times so that when they chase you to try and come kill the guy with 'harmless' swarm launchers, he goes boom when he rolls over your trap! The other night I actually killed two tanks with the same trap at the same time without even knowing the second tank was there! I was pleasantly suprised to see six kills pop up on the feed. Being on the other team's comms to hear the rage was even sweeter. For the next four or five rounds I was matched against this team of 3-4 tanks, and proceeded to harass them nonstop all match, killing them quite a few times while only dying once or twice myself over the course of all of the rounds. More importantly, in forcing the tanks to flee from me I was stopping them from steamrolling my team. This meant their kill counts plummeted in comparison to what they were in rounds I have been on the same team as they were. :)

Traps are very effective, and swarm launchers can really do some damage if you keep at it. Teamwork is your best weapon against these, as a smart driver you will have an absolute nightmare killing solo.

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Ronin Odachi 38th Joint Tactical Command 127	Posted - 2012.07.09 06:19:00 - [1] - Quote One is hard enough to take down, with teamwork. When the match starts and the other team brings in 2+, there is no hope unless you're lucky enough to have a few up your own sleeve. Two-shotting a 7k EHP madrugar, with an extra 25% resists in addition to base? I understand what they are supposed to be, namely death machines built to kill tier 1 HAV's. Yet I rarely see them destroyed, even when fire is focused on them. I've had them on my side, same story; they just don't die. A large buffer tank, in addition to a shield recharge rate that requires the opposing team to have at least two AV-specced players laying down constant fire. How common they are becoming is a testament to the fact that in the game of rock paper scissors, they have become the nuke that kills everything. I challenge you to do this: in a match with a sagaris driver, take note of their name. At the end of the match, look at their k/d. More often then not, it'll be something like 13/0 or greater. More often then not, they don't lose their tank, and can call in their marauder with impunity because the risk is so small, and the reward so great. So what am I asking? I still want to be killed by sagaris drivers when I roll up in my tier one. I still want marauders to be the most feared vehicle on the battlefield. I'm just asking that when I do engage one, I feel that I actually did something to it as it drives over my lifeless corpse. I would like for there to be some risk, so that HAV drivers need to weigh whether or not it's worth it to call in such a beast. All this said, I recognize two points. First, it seems more people are becoming aware of the need for AV specialists, as my forays into dropships are ending with greater frequency with a host of 8+ swarm missiles chasing me. Second, since we are gaining ISK at an accelerated rate, this may not be an issue upon launch, as the cost of losing one would be so disruptive, it could set you back quite a ways. I suppose a counter to this is that since ISK will be flowing between EVE and Dust, it wouldn't be difficult for many players to finance their marauders with money earned by internet space ships. Finally, for all you flamers out there, look for one instance of me calling for a nerf besides this. I recognize the RPS paradigm, and that's why I'm making this post. Now, flame on!
Ray seveN Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 71	Posted - 2012.07.09 07:35:00 - [2] - Quote easy 6 steps to kill a sagaris!! step one: get a drop ship. step two: ram it into the sagaris. step three: have another tank ram it into a wall. step four: throw all your AV grenades at the pinned sagaris step five: Get 3 more guys to shoot it with advanced+ forge guns. step six: watch it maybe blow up. If all goes right you might see the sagaris blow up :D but in all honesty I do agree with you. Its getting pretty problematic as more people jump ship from infantry to vehicles and most are upgrading to higher tiers.
Kyy Seiska Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 188	Posted - 2012.07.09 07:41:00 - [3] - Quote I agree. a single anti-vehicle build should be able to deal considerable amount of damage to any armored vehicle. These top-tier tanks and fittings are just way too powerful and nearly impossible to take down. Don't give me **** on how they are so expensive and require a lot of skill points to get, since there's simply no other build/focus in the game where you gain access to such super weapons. e.g No matter how much SP or ISK you have with your anti-vehicle build, you never gain access to something like 300k portable-nuke that can take down any tank with a single shot.
Ignatius Crumwald Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 475	Posted - 2012.07.09 09:09:00 - [4] - Quote Tanks are fine, we need more anti-vehicle weaponry options, like mines, flux grenades, webifyers, etc.
Mobius Derp BetaMax. 8	Posted - 2012.07.09 09:51:00 - [5] - Quote You could have a team full of low skilled guys firing their AV weapons at a well fit Sagaris and they won't do much damage, but one good specd AV guy can rip the shield to shreds, two specd AV guys catching one in the open and the Sagaris is history and I'm speaking from experience here. As for taking down madrugar's in two shots, yes this happens but sometimes madrugar's take 3 or 4 shots to take down which tells me that the 2 shot guy had a fail fit.
Dewie Cheecham Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 677	Posted - 2012.07.09 09:57:00 - [6] - Quote The problem with the Sagaris is not so much its heinous DPS. Or it's incredible tank. It is that it has both. Coupled with the insane splash damage of rockets, it'll level just about any resistance just by pointing a rocket in its general direction. The exception being the dropships. I have two Surya setups. and while I'm pretty well off on armour, I have literally only militia level DPS if I go for it. And vice versa, if I want incredible DPS, any player with a swarm launcher is a severe threat. I can't have both on my Surya. Apparently the Sagaris can, especially if it goes for a railgun. I'm not in game, but IIRC a heavy rail gun uses the same resources as armour, where shield tanking and the rail aren't really competing for resources. But the primary concern in my book are the rockets, they have a fairly high rate of fire, so missing one is of little consequence, blasters do next to nothing, and rails have a very low rate of fire. But in addition to that low RoF, they both have an overheat. Rockets don't it seems. There should be a 3-6 round magazine for rockets, with the same 10-15 second cooldown we Hybrid weapons users suffer from.
Dewie Cheecham Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 677	Posted - 2012.07.09 10:00:00 - [7] - Quote Ignatius Crumwald wrote: Tanks are fine, we need more anti-vehicle weaponry options, like mines, flux grenades, webifyers, etc. Not really. The problem is that then the situation would reverse, and anything but top fitted tanks would be so much scrap metal in a very short order. Lately I'm seeing an incredible amount of damage coming my way, from higher tier Swarm launchers and forge guns, AV grenades and RE's Some of these aren't even top tier, but they still do damage.
zekina zek D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire 108	Posted - 2012.07.09 11:49:00 - [8] - Quote Ray seveN wrote: easy 6 steps to kill a sagaris!! step one: get a drop ship. step two: ram it into the sagaris. step 3: bop the tank in its head, again and again and again. step 4: annoy the **** out of tank pilot while avoid getting hit. step 5: tank command gets pissed off and jumps out to shoot you, step 6: kill tank commander. lucky step 7, steal sagaris.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.09 11:56:00 - [9] - Quote I've seen a Sagaris die while I was shooting at it with my Militia Swarm Launcher. I'm pretty sure our Eryx pilot was a major factor in its destruction. We had a well-geared Dropship staying outside the Tank's line of fire, and occasionally dropping AV soldiers (myself included) onto nearby rooftops when he had more passengers than gunners. By the time it went down, half our team was running AV builds or vehicles of their own. I don't think they need nerfing. I think they're good right now in terms of power. What they need is a price hike, and the devs have already said they're doing that.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. 1216	Posted - 2012.07.09 12:30:00 - [10] - Quote Ray seveN wrote: easy 6 steps to kill a sagaris!! step one: get a drop ship. step two: ram it into the sagaris. step three: have another tank ram it into a wall. step four: throw all your AV grenades at the pinned sagaris step five: Get 3 more guys to shoot it with advanced+ forge guns. step six: watch it maybe blow up. If all goes right you might see the sagaris blow up :D but in all honesty I do agree with you. Its getting pretty problematic as more people jump ship from infantry to vehicles and most are upgrading to higher tiers. HIT IT WITH THINGS I like this tactic. EDIT: We're actually only gaining SP at an accelerated rate right now. I however saw a post last night stating that the Marauders may be seeing a cost increase up to 1.2 million for just the hull. I think that'd add a nice big risk to bringing one of those on field.

Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 789	Posted - 2012.07.09 12:50:00 - [11] - Quote The main problem with tier 2 tanks, is that people don't know how to kill them. People expect to kill a marauder solo, and unless you are dealing with a not so good tank driver, that simply will not happen in 9/10 cases. It is definitely possible to solo these tanks, but very difficult. That is proper! Lay remote explosive traps on roads, hit them with a swarm launcher a few times so that when they chase you to try and come kill the guy with 'harmless' swarm launchers, he goes boom when he rolls over your trap! The other night I actually killed two tanks with the same trap at the same time without even knowing the second tank was there! I was pleasantly suprised to see six kills pop up on the feed. Being on the other team's comms to hear the rage was even sweeter. For the next four or five rounds I was matched against this team of 3-4 tanks, and proceeded to harass them nonstop all match, killing them quite a few times while only dying once or twice myself over the course of all of the rounds. More importantly, in forcing the tanks to flee from me I was stopping them from steamrolling my team. This meant their kill counts plummeted in comparison to what they were in rounds I have been on the same team as they were. :) Traps are very effective, and swarm launchers can really do some damage if you keep at it. Teamwork is your best weapon against these, as a smart driver you will have an absolute nightmare killing solo.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.09 13:20:00 - [12] - Quote Other than that minor contribution I mentioned where the Eryx did most of the work, I've never seen a Sagaris die... ...but I've had several that picked up less than 10 kills in the match because I kept them chasing the ghosts of my Swarm trails. It's nice to know that people using high-tier gear can actually hurt them. Thanks for the confirmation Nova.
STB-stlcarlos989 EV Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 936	Posted - 2012.07.09 13:32:00 - [13] - Quote Ray seveN wrote: easy 6 steps to kill a sagaris!! step one: get a drop ship. step two: ram it into the sagaris. step three: have another tank ram it into a wall. step four: throw all your AV grenades at the pinned sagaris step five: Get 3 more guys to shoot it with advanced+ forge guns. step six: watch it maybe blow up. If all goes right you might see the sagaris blow up :D but in all honesty I do agree with you. Its getting pretty problematic as more people jump ship from infantry to vehicles and most are upgrading to higher tiers. Oh wow I had no idea it was that easy, next time I face one i'll coordinate this incredibly simple tactic with the randoms in my squad who most like don't have mics. Boy do I feel like an idiot, its so F**king simple. lol
Mobius Derp BetaMax. 8	Posted - 2012.07.09 14:39:00 - [14] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: The main problem with tier 2 tanks, is that people don't know how to kill them. People expect to kill a marauder solo, and unless you are dealing with a not so good tank driver, that simply will not happen in 9/10 cases. It is definitely possible to solo these tanks, but very difficult. That is proper! The other night me and my buddy both hunted marauders with our st hot advanced forge guns, when we saw one we both harrassed it in unison until it exploded, when it wasnt exploding it was fleeing. More importantly, in forcing the tanks to flee from us I was stopping them from steamrolling my team. This meant their kill counts plummeted (from 30-0 down to 15-2) in comparison to what they were in rounds I have been on the same team as they were. :) Traps are very effective, and swarm launchers can really do some damage if you keep at it. Teamwork is your best weapon against these, as a smart driver you will have an absolute nightmare killing solo. I edited your comment a bit too what i feel works against a Sagaris from my experiences (they are pretty much all I use). I'm not saying your trap wouldn't work, just that that in my experience remote explosives don't do much damage.
Dewie Cheecham Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 677	Posted - 2012.07.09 14:40:00 - [15] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Other than that minor contribution I mentioned where the Eryx did most of the work, I've never seen a Sagaris die... ...but I've had several that picked up less than 10 kills in the match because I kept them chasing the ghosts of my Swarm trails. It's nice to know that people using high-tier gear can actually hurt them. Thanks for the confirmation Nova. I've killed a few, and been killed as many times by a Sagaris. But that was using the weapon that is supposed to have a chance at killing a Sagaris: Another Marauder.
Dewie Cheecham Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 677	Posted - 2012.07.09 14:42:00 - [16] - Quote STB-stlcarlos989 EV wrote: Oh wow I had no idea it was that easy, next time I face one i'll coordinate this incredibly simple tactic with the randoms in my squad who most like don't have mics. Boy do I feel like an idiot, its so F**king simple. lol It is that simple. Don't judge the difficulty level on what you can achieve now, but by what you may achieve when you get full comms participation, and corp battles running.
Martin0 Brancaleone Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS. 191	Posted - 2012.07.09 14:58:00 - [17] - Quote Dewie Cheecham wrote: The problem with the Sagaris is not so much its heinous DPS. Or it's incredible tank. It is that it has both. Coupled with the insane splash damage of rockets, it'll level just about any resistance just by pointing a rocket in its general direction. The exception being the dropships. I have two Surya setups. and while I'm pretty well off on armour, I have literally only militia level DPS if I go for it. And vice versa, if I want incredible DPS, any player with a swarm launcher is a severe threat. I can't have both on my Surya. Apparently the Sagaris can, especially if it goes for a railgun. I'm not in game, but IIRC a heavy rail gun uses the same resources as armour, where shield tanking and the rail aren't really competing for resources. But the primary concern in my book are the rockets, they have a fairly high rate of fire, so missing one is of little consequence, blasters do next to nothing, and rails have a very low rate of fire. But in addition to that low RoF, they both have an overheat. Rockets don't it seems. There should be a 3-6 round magazine for rockets, with the same 10-15 second cooldown we Hybrid weapons users suffer from. I think this guy is right.
Khun-Al 135	Posted - 2012.07.09 15:08:00 - [18] - Quote Something like an EMP grenade would be good. The tank breaks down, the mercs have to come out hack it to use it again. During this time you can kill them and hack the tank.
Icy Tiger 496	Posted - 2012.07.09 15:27:00 - [19] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: The main problem with tier 2 tanks, is that people don't know how to kill them. People expect to kill a marauder solo, and unless you are dealing with a not so good tank driver, that simply will not happen in 9/10 cases. It is definitely possible to solo these tanks, but very difficult. That is proper! Lay remote explosive traps on roads, hit them with a swarm launcher a few times so that when they chase you to try and come kill the guy with 'harmless' swarm launchers, he goes boom when he rolls over your trap! The other night I actually killed two tanks with the same trap at the same time without even knowing the second tank was there! I was pleasantly suprised to see six kills pop up on the feed. Being on the other team's comms to hear the rage was even sweeter. For the next four or five rounds I was matched against this team of 3-4 tanks, and proceeded to harass them nonstop all match, killing them quite a few times while only dying once or twice myself over the course of all of the rounds. More importantly, in forcing the tanks to flee from me I was stopping them from steamrolling my team. This meant their kill counts plummeted in comparison to what they were in rounds I have been on the same team as they were. :) Traps are very effective, and swarm launchers can really do some damage if you keep at it. Teamwork is your best weapon against these, as a smart driver you will have an absolute nightmare killing solo. Remote Explosives do nothing at all. I put all five down on an idiot wh owasnt paying attention, detonated them, used all three av grenades, and hit him twice with my tier two Forge gun. Didnt even break his shields.
Gerg Hammer 20	Posted - 2012.07.09 15:28:00 - [20] - Quote Sagaris with the Large Missile turret is not as good as you guys think, just get to the higher ground and it cant touch you. Seriously, If it can target the ground you are standing on, you're as good as dead, but if you are on a roof, a ledge, a crate, a pipe, ANYthing that puts you above the turret level, it becomes nigh impossible to hit you if you play "whack-a-mole" using the militia swarm launcher. And imagine how the tank driver feels when you drop 50% or more of its life using a militia swarm launcher without taking any damage, if you think its frustrating to get killed by a tank a few times, imagine spending 250K+ for your tank and getting raeped by a FREE gun.

Zekain Kade BetaMax. 931	Posted - 2012.07.09 15:31:00 - [21] - Quote try playing in a game when there's four of them, and two drop ships.
Gerg Hammer 20	Posted - 2012.07.09 15:33:00 - [22] - Quote Also, the large missile turret upgrades are not complete, Tier 1 2 and 3 all have the exact same stats with the only difference being cost, PG, and CPU, with the more expensive using MORE cpu and PG. The base missile turret damage is pretty low, it takes 4 or 5 shots to drop a well equipped heavy, in that time they can pump out a TON of damage with a forge gun. A scout suit or an assault suit without shield/armor modules can't take a direct hit though, which IMO is how it should be.
William HBonney Imperfects Negative-Feedback 318	Posted - 2012.07.09 17:14:00 - [23] - Quote Right now there is not a really effective way of killing tanks.....forge guns do 1600 damage...tanks have 6000 life...a tank doesn't sit around when it is getting hit it just moves...much faster then a heavy or assault and it lets its shields recharge, you almost have to have a full team of AV to take them out so they can't just round a corner for a second. A single AV build should worry any vehicle...not to solo really, but to really worry them, if a tank driver is halfway smart he will always move a little from danger, if he is getting swarmed, kill the swarmer or drive a bit and the missles will run into every wall, pebble or piece of debris and not touch the tank.
Nick Phantom Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 91	Posted - 2012.07.10 02:04:00 - [24] - Quote Tanks are fine. It takes teamwork to take them down and since corporations are not available and we can't have parties yet your just going to have to wait to friends are able to play with you. Please don't change the tanks. This game has all the great components of creating a game that promotes Teamwork. If someone doesn't want to play this game as a team player then you are not going to last long with this game. Also just because we can't team up now and it's making it hard to be a lone star and win. That doesn't mean the game needs changed it means we need corporation functionality and Parties added. The game play is starting to reflect the need for teamwork and since EVE is a game of teamwork this is a very very good sign.
Neco'mancer Dump Truck driver 17	Posted - 2012.07.10 02:14:00 - [25] - Quote they already have an answer in the wings, because some times, there's only one way to be sure... (SoonTM)
zekina zek D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire 108	Posted - 2012.07.10 03:28:00 - [26] - Quote eryx > sagaris if the team with eryx use it correctly.
zekina zek D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire 108	Posted - 2012.07.10 03:28:00 - [27] - Quote militia tanks are paper thin, of course T2 tanks should be uber powerful.
Paran Tadec Imperfects Negative-Feedback 902	Posted - 2012.07.10 04:24:00 - [28] - Quote Dewie Cheecham wrote: I have two Surya setups. and while I'm pretty well off on armour, I have literally only militia level DPS if I go for it. And vice versa, if I want incredible DPS, any player with a swarm launcher is a severe threat. I can't have both on my Surya. Apparently the Sagaris can, especially if it goes for a railgun. I'm not in game, but IIRC a heavy rail gun uses the same resources as armour, where shield tanking and the rail aren't really competing for resources. congratulations, youve discovered the difference in caldari and gallente military thinking.
Jack McReady 46	Posted - 2012.07.10 07:56:00 - [29] - Quote all those "get a dropship" comments are pointless because it is not as easy as you make it sound. a sagaris with a heavy rail can kill a tank fitted high tier dropship on his approach with 3 hits (3 shots take 5 seconds). a sagaris tank can also abuse the pipelines on the map to use them as cover from any assault from above. also chances are, the moment you pick a dropship several swarm launcher volley are already following you. a sagaris also has alot of ehp, it takes time to kill it with the dropship weaponry. and if one team has 2 sagaris tanks you can already leave game, its pointless, because you will not have the possibility to fly into the tanks deadzone.
Kyy Seiska Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 188	Posted - 2012.07.10 09:16:00 - [30] - Quote Nick Phantom wrote: Tanks are fine. It takes teamwork to take them down and since corporations are not available and we can't have parties yet your just going to have to wait to friends are able to play with you. Please don't change the tanks. This game has all the great components of creating a game that promotes Teamwork. If someone doesn't want to play this game as a team player then you are not going to last long with this game. Also just because we can't team up now and it's making it hard to be a lone star and win. That doesn't mean the game needs changed it means we need corporation functionality and Parties added. The game play is starting to reflect the need for teamwork and since EVE is a game of teamwork this is a very very good sign. If one player can access a super weapon that needs the whole opposing team to take down, it is way overpowered there's simply no argument against it. It doesn't even require teamwork to build/buy/get one of these tanks, why should it require team work to take one down? Sure you need to spend hefty amount of SP to get one and a they cost a lot, but don't see any other class/build getting access to such super weapons.



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