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The Issue With Shields

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Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries 4	Posted - 2015.09.22 05:13:00 - [1] - Quote Everytime I post in one of those CPM threads about shields before it gets locked...my point gets glossed over. Does anyone else agree that shield regen/recharge is not the problem with the shield tanking? Shield tanking is not viable cause you are melted by the double & triple damage modded amarr and gallente suits. Not to mention throwing flux grenades are like nukes to shield tankers and they are easier to use than a locus grenade. I'm not familiar with all of the CPM's style of play or preferences but I do know one has been a longtime advocate for armor and has expressed many times that he felt that shields are in a great place (before he became CPM). Now, in Aeon's threads, everyone is agrees on what the problem with shield tanking is? I don't undersand at all. It is a simple thing to understand. Armor suit maintain their primary tank and can stack double or triple damage mods on ARs or laser based weapons (20% damage bonus to shields). How can a shield tanker compete with the damage output if we have to sacrifice our primary tank to keep up with their damage output? In even clearer terms....amarr assault gets to don 700hp of armor with damage mods on a weapon that has a 20% damage bonus to shields. Caldari assault would have a bit over 500 shields if we sacrifice two highs for damage mods. In order to compensate, you see cal assaults with armor plates. Armor tanking on a cal assault defeats the purpose of shield tanking. One plate may be ok but I see 400 hp of armor on cal assaults regularly. Does everyone disagree with this being the big issue or do people agree that the focus needs to lie here? "Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit" Check RND out here
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.22 05:29:00 - [2] - Quote the shield stuff is multi-stage. Stage 1 is straightening out recharge delays. 1A: This has a massive effect not only on survivability, but on fitting choices. Common wisdom is that a proper shield tank on an assault (if you don't want to just give in and put ferroscales on) is three regulators in the lows. That means a calassault has to devote eight slots to their tank versus a gal/amarr assault's four. One of the lows on a gal/am assault is usually reserved for biotics, sometimes two but usually two ferros or plates and one or two reps. By making regulators less mandatory for a good shield fit rather than absolutely critical it improves the calassault (and to a lesser degree, shield tanked minmatar suits) by a good deal. Suddenly damps, biotics and other modules become an option. Stage 2 is adjusting modules so they aren't ass. Stage 3 is making fun of me and my ideas. Seriously, I actually have a sense of humor. I can take it as good as I dish. Stage 4 is comparing usage and, more importantly Kill per spawn metrics with armor to see if we're on the right track. Lastly, if we find that we cannot stabilize Shields in a similar Kill/spawn range as the Armor mods, THEN we look at toning down armor. There is no one on the CPM who is delusional enough to believe that this is the magic bullet that will save all. I push it because lowering shield delays means that fitting options are less automatically dictated for shield suit players if they don't want to have to fit armor for viability. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Summa Militum Art.of.Death Smart Deploy 821	Posted - 2015.09.22 05:33:00 - [3] - Quote I feel like the Caldari should get a dropsuit bonus for shields. Buffing shield modules would help the Caldari but it would also help other factions when the focus right now should be primarily on the Caldari.
Aeon Amadi 12	Posted - 2015.09.22 05:35:00 - [4] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: Everytime I post in one of those CPM threads about shields before it gets locked...my point gets glossed over. Does anyone else agree that shield regen/recharge is not the problem with the shield tanking? Shield tanking is not viable cause you are melted by the double & triple damage modded amarr and gallente suits. Not to mention throwing flux grenades are like nukes to shield tankers and they are easier to use than a locus grenade. I'm not familiar with all of the CPM's style of play or preferences but I do know one has been a longtime advocate for armor and has expressed many times that he felt that shields are in a great place (before he became CPM). Now, in Aeon's threads, everyone is agrees on what the problem with shield tanking is? I don't undersand at all. It is a simple thing to understand. Armor suit maintain their primary tank and can stack double or triple damage mods on ARs or laser based weapons (20% damage bonus to shields). How can a shield tanker compete with the damage output if we have to sacrifice our primary tank to keep up with their damage output? In even clearer terms....amarr assault gets to don 700hp of armor with damage mods on a weapon that has a 20% damage bonus to shields. Caldari assault would have a bit over 500 shields if we sacrifice two highs for damage mods. In order to compensate, you see cal assaults with armor plates. Armor tanking on a cal assault defeats the purpose of shield tanking. One plate may be ok but I see 400 hp of armor on cal assaults regularly. Does everyone disagree with this being the big issue or do people agree that the focus needs to lie here? I think every CPM is pretty unanimous that we generally hate damage mods existing and if we had our way they'd probably go the way of the Dodo. Mostly because of situations exactly like you pointed out, which leaves us with one of two options: Either we move to introduce damage mods in the lows to boost shield usage in some six degrees of separation way, or we move for the removal or discouraged use of damage mods in the highs. It's sort of a pickle, for certain, and I don't think we have a solution. What we are working on though is a multi-step shield proposal (you've seen step one, of which there are about four) because it is something we can advocate changing because it's been needing an overhaul anyway. Shields haven't seen much change since the early days of Uprising and the current system is chaotic and confusing. Which, we're all sort of hesitant to change armor, or damage mods, or basically anything until that system actually has some sort of planned and functional design. All we're asking for is some feedback and patience. Yes, we understand that the current meta is armor. Yes, we understand that many players feel that a quick solution would be to nerf armor. We're not interested in quick band-aid solutions though, we're interested in long-term benefits that we don't have to keep having these sort of conversations over and to do that we need a functional design that we can work off of. We want shields and armor to have their unique playstyles and it has always been a design philosophy in Dust 514 that armor was about high HP while shields were about high Regen. That is our baseline. Cross Atu wrote: #1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation #2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity #3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step. #4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods. Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog Skype: nomistrav
Jonny D Buelle The Warlords Legion No Context 2	Posted - 2015.09.22 05:36:00 - [5] - Quote The problem is shield regen and shield delay. Amarr and Gallente weapons are anti-shield weapons just like Caldari and Minmatar weapons are anti-armour. Flux grenades are a problem and need to take a look at. Even a basic flux is powerful enough to wipe a Caldari Sent's shields. My proposal is to nerf its damage vs infantry but keep the damage against vechiles the same. I have no idea about numbers. I also agree that shield tanking is not viable as to have semi-decent shields, you are stacking shield mods in your highs and have no place to put damage modifiers or mylolfibs. Why not either make a new slot for damage modifiers in the suit or make it so they can be fitted in either high slots or low slots. Logistics Officer of T-W-L Keeper of the List Scrub Lord
Aeon Amadi 12	Posted - 2015.09.22 05:39:00 - [6] - Quote Jonny D Buelle wrote: The problem is shield regen and shield delay. Amarr and Gallente weapons are anti-shield weapons just like Caldari and Minmatar weapons are anti-armour. Flux grenades are a problem and need to take a look at. Even a basic flux is powerful enough to wipe a Caldari Sent's shields. My proposal is to nerf its damage vs infantry but keep the damage against vechiles the same. I have no idea about numbers. I also agree that shield tanking is not viable as to have semi-decent shields, you are stacking shield mods in your highs and have no place to put damage modifiers or mylolfibs. Why not either make a new slot for damage modifiers in the suit or make it so they can be fitted in either high slots or low slots. Mostly because of the impact it'd have on TTK. Just imagine a Minmatar Assault running damage mods in the lows and Myos in the highs. Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog Skype: nomistrav
Jonny D Buelle The Warlords Legion No Context 2	Posted - 2015.09.22 05:41:00 - [7] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I think every CPM is pretty unanimous that we generally hate damage mods existing and if we had our way they'd probably go the way of the Dodo. Mostly because of situations exactly like you pointed out, which leaves us with one of two options: Either we move to introduce damage mods in the lows to boost shield usage in some six degrees of separation way, or we move for the removal or discouraged use of damage mods in the highs. It's sort of a pickle, for certain, and I don't think we have a solution. Sorry to nitpick here but removing damage mods completely will severly gimp the Gal Sentinel. The only advantage we have over the Amarr Sent right now is our increased damage output due to stacking damage mods. If you want to remove them, then boost Gal Sent reps. Barring their removal, push for either damage mods to have their own slot or have them be both a high and low module. Logistics Officer of T-W-L Keeper of the List Scrub Lord
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.22 05:45:00 - [8] - Quote None of us are pushing to remove anything. Just because we're looking to push TTK to the slower side a LITTLE bit doesn't mean we're going to try and remove options rather than shore up failing ones WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Jonny D Buelle The Warlords Legion No Context 2	Posted - 2015.09.22 05:46:00 - [9] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Jonny D Buelle wrote: The problem is shield regen and shield delay. Amarr and Gallente weapons are anti-shield weapons just like Caldari and Minmatar weapons are anti-armour. Flux grenades are a problem and need to take a look at. Even a basic flux is powerful enough to wipe a Caldari Sent's shields. My proposal is to nerf its damage vs infantry but keep the damage against vechiles the same. I have no idea about numbers. I also agree that shield tanking is not viable as to have semi-decent shields, you are stacking shield mods in your highs and have no place to put damage modifiers or mylolfibs. Why not either make a new slot for damage modifiers in the suit or make it so they can be fitted in either high slots or low slots. Mostly because of the impact it'd have on TTK. Just imagine a Minmatar Assault running damage mods in the lows and Myos in the highs. So give it it's own slot. A slot was added for SKINs, I dont see why it cant be doable to add a slot (lets call it a medium) and put damage mods there. Hell make myos a medium slot mod as well so people have to decide between jumping and melee damage or weapon damage. Logistics Officer of T-W-L Keeper of the List Scrub Lord
Jonny D Buelle The Warlords Legion No Context 2	Posted - 2015.09.22 05:51:00 - [10] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: None of us are pushing to remove anything. Just because we're looking to push TTK to the slower side a LITTLE bit doesn't mean we're going to try and remove options rather than shore up failing ones Im all for reducing the TTK, but not at the risk of making a suit which members of the community use not viable. I apologize for my outburst, but any talk of removing (which, again sorry to nitpick, Aeon hinted at with his "the way of the dodo" comment) damage mods is something I will strongly oppose unless the Gal Sent is able to out rep the Amarr Sent. Logistics Officer of T-W-L Keeper of the List Scrub Lord

Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 423	Posted - 2015.09.22 06:04:00 - [11] - Quote Since this thread is now damage mods...what about RoF Mods...or converting the current damage mods to half raw half RoF to help mitigate the Alpha-strike problems Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
Jonny D Buelle The Warlords Legion No Context 2	Posted - 2015.09.22 06:07:00 - [12] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Since this thread is now damage mods...what about RoF Mods...or converting the current damage mods to half raw half RoF to help mitigate the Alpha-strike problems Ill take the blame for this derail, making own thread. Logistics Officer of T-W-L Keeper of the List Scrub Lord
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 423	Posted - 2015.09.22 06:16:00 - [13] - Quote Jonny D Buelle wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Since this thread is now damage mods...what about RoF Mods...or converting the current damage mods to half raw half RoF to help mitigate the Alpha-strike problems Ill take the blame for this derail, making own thread. and I'm sorry for continuing it...although it technically is the topic of the OP xD Shields have numerous issues...from the high-dps that armor necessitated on weapons with laser profiles (and no...a profile reduction isn't going to help shields out here), to the efficiency of the modules, to the support power armor has...to the lack of synergistic modules in the low slots...to Caldari having the worst mobility while using a buffer that is skirmish oriented (Amarr Style Stamina would help here)...but we start at the base level...which is the base stats on the suits, and the mechanics that affect them. No one is saying that there aren't other problems with the shield suits, nor is anyone saying that if a change to shield recharge and delay is done in a patch that it will be the only shield change for that patch....but in all the discussions of shields, we run into numerous issues when examining the base stats...mostly that while they follow a general idea (mostly) they don't fit on an easily modified function. Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.22 06:18:00 - [14] - Quote Jonny D Buelle wrote: I will strongly oppose unless the Gal Sent is able to out rep the Amarr Sent. Oh for want of free reign on one or three skills in the skill tree. Can I do the dropsuit command and Frame Skills? I have horrible, glorious ideas WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Jonny D Buelle The Warlords Legion No Context 2	Posted - 2015.09.22 06:20:00 - [15] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Jonny D Buelle wrote: I will strongly oppose unless the Gal Sent is able to out rep the Amarr Sent. Oh for want of free reign on one or three skills in the skill tree. Can I do the dropsuit command and Frame Skills? I have horrible, glorious ideas I have a few ideas myself! Logistics Officer of T-W-L Keeper of the List Scrub Lord
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 423	Posted - 2015.09.22 06:22:00 - [16] - Quote Jonny D Buelle wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Jonny D Buelle wrote: I will strongly oppose unless the Gal Sent is able to out rep the Amarr Sent. Oh for want of free reign on one or three skills in the skill tree. Can I do the dropsuit command and Frame Skills? I have horrible, glorious ideas I have a few ideas myself! Now where did I put that spreadsheet Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
Aeon Amadi 12	Posted - 2015.09.22 06:24:00 - [17] - Quote Jonny D Buelle wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: None of us are pushing to remove anything. Just because we're looking to push TTK to the slower side a LITTLE bit doesn't mean we're going to try and remove options rather than shore up failing ones Im all for reducing the TTK, but not at the risk of making a suit which members of the community use not viable. I apologize for my outburst, but any talk of removing (which, again sorry to nitpick, Aeon hinted at with his "the way of the dodo" comment) damage mods is something I will strongly oppose unless the Gal Sent is able to out rep the Amarr Sent. Was less about increasing TTK (increasing = longer time, decreasing = lessening the time) and more about the fact that damage mods are high-mod exclusive. It's the lesser of two evils to just leave it in because the extremes would be removing it or throwing a pipe-wrench in the TTK by adding in another one and encouraging even more broken fits. In the end it'd only help shield users if they used it and there's nothing to stop an armor tanker from using them either (myos + damage mods is something I'd probably do). So, the optimal solution is to make utility modules better to encourage their use over HP/Damage mod stacking. Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog Skype: nomistrav
dzizur Nos Nothi 1	Posted - 2015.09.22 06:40:00 - [18] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Jonny D Buelle wrote: The problem is shield regen and shield delay. Amarr and Gallente weapons are anti-shield weapons just like Caldari and Minmatar weapons are anti-armour. Flux grenades are a problem and need to take a look at. Even a basic flux is powerful enough to wipe a Caldari Sent's shields. My proposal is to nerf its damage vs infantry but keep the damage against vechiles the same. I have no idea about numbers. I also agree that shield tanking is not viable as to have semi-decent shields, you are stacking shield mods in your highs and have no place to put damage modifiers or mylolfibs. Why not either make a new slot for damage modifiers in the suit or make it so they can be fitted in either high slots or low slots. Mostly because of the impact it'd have on TTK. Just imagine a Minmatar Assault running damage mods in the lows and Myos in the highs. What's wrong with a glass cannon fit? And could anyone give me one sensible argument why everyone wants TTK to be longer and longer and longer everytime. Like wtf, it's enough I have to empty 2 full clips from my sidearm to kill a dude... On topic - as I said in previous thread - IMO there never will be balance between armor and shields if we have equipment that heals armor, and nades that totally wreck shields. But we are not getting any more content anyway so I guess all that fighting with numbers and trying to make armor out of shield is useless. But that's only my opinion
Larkson Crazy Eye WarRavens Imperium Eden 306	Posted - 2015.09.22 06:58:00 - [19] - Quote The problem with shields is there really is no middle ground with the way the game mechanics work right now. Before shields used to be what every one used. Scouts were invincible with hit and run tactics with things like the shot gun and flay lock. They could blitz threw enemy groups, take a few shots and regen to full by the time they turn around for another pass. So things changed and now with an introduction of more anti shield weapons in the laser riffle, scram riffle, etc shields seem to weak. The problem is shields are insanely strong in some area's still. Even without putting any mods into your suit most shields will fully recover in no time in comparison to armor. Even the basic 400 or so armor a lot of suits start out with takes over 3 minutes to recover. Armor rep mods are expensive to fit and vastly weaker than shield regulators or rechargers in terms of effect. It's not like there are not countless anti armor weapons out there that eat away against armor users. Core grenades pretty much one shot almost all armor fits but a shield fit with maybe 400 or so shields will tend to live. Yet people want to turn anti shield weapons into nerf darts and make them useless. Shield values could be buffed, people want higher shield HP totals out of their mods just like armor. But imo then the basic recharge level of most suits should go down as well. After all it takes nearly all of an armor users slots to get 20-30 armor reps per second, yet a lot of drop suits basic recharge starts that high. Never mind the slight stuttering delay armor reps have, coming in two part ticks instead of one big number every second like it's supposed to. In the end I feel shields are messed up right now but I don't think it's that bad and I would rather have nothing done than some half brained quick fix thrown in that upsets the balance of everything. After all there doesn't seem to be any kind of test server for dust. Almost ever major update had huge game crashing flaws that make it unto the live server. Which greatly diminishes my faith in 'proper balance' of any potential shield changes in the future. Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician: "Everybody but me--CHARGE!"
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.22 07:38:00 - [20] - Quote Actually I take the philosophy of: the closer you take your shield HP towards armor levels, the closer to base armor regen values you should have to suffer. It's why the proposal me, Cat merc and Ripley Riley cooked up a while back had a heavy duty extender that penalized the shield rep rate. Damn thing would require a shield energizer to bring the calsent regen back UP to baseline if you fit three of them. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

TooMany Names AlreadyTaken Going for the gold 1	Posted - 2015.09.22 08:04:00 - [21] - Quote Lately I've been stomping with my C-I Assault... 4 basic shield ext. 1 basic shield energizer 3 enhanced shield regulators ARR, BreachSMG, M1 locus, nanohive I've made it to recharge fast and have miniscule delay, and it's only standard! I see no problem with shield suits apart from low HP. My sweet summer is gone.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.22 08:37:00 - [22] - Quote Weapon profiles are a bit of a moot point, because whilst laser weapons do +20% to shields, explosives do +20% to armour. Also both combat rifles, and crucially HMGs, do +15% to armour. So I don't think weapon profiles are the issue. If we consider damage mods, yes armour suits can fit them without sacrificing tank. However, unlike armour suits, shield suits can improve their regen with regulators, without sacrificing tank. Now, energisers are in an interesting place, as they compete with both extenders and damage mods, and regulators need to be used with them to gain full effect. That's a lot of sacrifice, and I believe that it should come with a high reward. Also, the damage mod argument only really works in a world where you only fit tank and damage. There are other low slot modules that armour suits would have to sacrifice tank to fit. I'm not saying shields and armour are balanced, I'm just saying it's not a problem with weapon profiles or damage mods.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.22 08:57:00 - [23] - Quote You can still fit damage mods to shield suits, which I do frequently. I don't think damage mods are the problem.
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 704	Posted - 2015.09.22 11:44:00 - [24] - Quote Careful, this kind of talk gets topics locked. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.09.22 12:06:00 - [25] - Quote The flaw is trying to straighten out the Shield stats on all frames CA >> MN >> GA >> AM I replied to the CPM thread saying Armour suit Shield stars could "jump off a cliff" and while being a sh!tposter I was making a point, there should not be a curve between the 4 races Shield base stats, as 2 of them are not meant for Shield tanking. Shield base regen/delay is Shield tanking... normalizing this between all races.. just makes 4 ways to do the same thing, sounds good for balance and a Dust514 additon of COD, like many players I feel that current Shield tanking is OK, it just requires a different mentality and fitting setup. Normalizing this sounds pretty boring for gameplay imo.. The Speed:HP curve that Ratmaster put in place worked, as speed:hp total is a constant on all 4 suits - Tanking styles are not a constant, as they should be set apart for Shield > Armour - want short regen delays with good regen amounts, you Shield tank - want constant regen underfire, you Armour tank .. The proposal aims to set current Shield suit regen stats on Armour suits.. just NO! SOONtm
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.09.22 12:14:00 - [26] - Quote Shields are my own, and many mercs primary playstyle.. they work !!! Tidying up the difference between Scout > Assault > Logistics > Commando > Sentinel +1 As for Recharge/Delays, the proposal made so far does not look good, it equalizes the Shields too much between all 4 races so while a Shield suit is waiting to regen, an Armour suit has 20hp/s reps constant and 20-30 Shields in 4-5sec.. NO. If AM/GA want Shield stats, cough up some low slots to fit Shield mods, the base stats should not hand them to you. Reasonable Shield regen stats, CA 35 > MN 30 >> GA 20 > AM 15 The have the delays in favour of MN > CA > AM > GA (for the life on me, do NOT have Armour suit delays less than 6 sec) For me, Gal having higher amounts of Shield regen and longer delay than Amarr would work, I am less sure on placing MN ahead of CA on delays but it would leave CA higher amount of regen with longer delay than MN.. setting those apart there SOONtm
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.09.22 12:24:00 - [27] - Quote Devadander wrote: Careful, this kind of talk gets topics locked. The last one got messy, and I found myself with the same issue as Ydubbs no one gives a damn on your opinion, they just want to mass-debate.. You comment and consider what's there.. boom, the flames get ya SOONtm
MexXx Dust-Slayer Fatal Absolution 497	Posted - 2015.09.22 13:11:00 - [28] - Quote Another option would be to have shield regulators increase resistance by about 4/5/6% to help the balance against damage mods, and/or having regulators increase the shield damage threshold by %.
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 704	Posted - 2015.09.22 13:14:00 - [29] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: Devadander wrote: Careful, this kind of talk gets topics locked. The last one got messy, and I found myself with the same issue as Ydubbs no one gives a damn on your opinion, they just want to mass-debate.. You comment and consider what's there.. boom, the flames get ya If I see one gal/ama regen shields during a firefight I'll burn this mother down... Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Okiniwa Expert Intervention Caldari State 20	Posted - 2015.09.22 13:15:00 - [30] - Quote what if we had plasma/laser damage mods to be put in high's and rail/projectile damage mods to be put in lows whilst buffing recharge delays on cal + min assault. I see min + cal assaults with 200-300 shield and 500-340 armour regularly. This way both armour and shield suits can stack dmg mods while being having viable tank....or they could run biotics....or dual-tank

Devadander Woodgrain Atari 704	Posted - 2015.09.22 13:21:00 - [31] - Quote Okiniwa wrote: what if we had plasma/laser damage mods to be put in high's and rail/projectile damage mods to be put in lows whilst buffing recharge delays on cal + min assault. I see min + cal assaults with 200-300 shield and 500-340 armour regularly. This way both armour and shield suits can stack dmg mods while being having viable tank....or they could run biotics....or dual-tank Basically, with the new shield ideas, all suits will water into dual tanked copies of each other all running rail rifles. BORING514 Next build. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Okiniwa Expert Intervention Caldari State 20	Posted - 2015.09.22 13:23:00 - [32] - Quote Devadander wrote: Okiniwa wrote: what if we had plasma/laser damage mods to be put in high's and rail/projectile damage mods to be put in lows whilst buffing recharge delays on cal + min assault. I see min + cal assaults with 200-300 shield and 500-340 armour regularly. This way both armour and shield suits can stack dmg mods while being having viable tank....or they could run biotics....or dual-tank Basically, with the new shield ideas, all suits will water into dual tanked copies of each other all running rail rifles. BORING514 Next build. I do not understand why you quote my post. My idea is great!

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 26	Posted - 2015.09.22 13:24:00 - [33] - Quote "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Devadander Woodgrain Atari 704	Posted - 2015.09.22 13:25:00 - [34] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: [img]http://i.imgur.com/wIXicea.png[/img] LMAO Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 142	Posted - 2015.09.22 13:44:00 - [35] - Quote MexXx Dust-Slayer wrote: Another option would be to have shield regulators increase resistance by about 4/5/6% to help the balance against damage mods, and/or having regulators increase the shield damage threshold by %. Having regs increase the damage threshold is an interesting idea, provided regs don't get buffed in any other way. If they get a bump in their current stat, that should be tried first before this option, but if shields are still struggling after the first couple of buffs this idea should get some looking into. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.22 13:52:00 - [36] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: - want short regen delays with good regen amounts, you Shield tank - want constant regen underfire, you Armour tank .. This. However I don't think it has to be the case that Caldari and Minmatar suits have considerably better base shield regen stats than Gallente and Amarr. How you tank should be more to do with which modules you fit rather than which suit you choose. Caldari suits should encourage the use of shield rather than armour modules. Minmatar should encourage the use of either. It should be your choice to fit shield tank modules that should result in short regen delays and good regen amounts. One danger of the CPM proposal, is that by giving all suits short regen delays, there is less of a benefit for people who actually choose to fit their suit out for shield tanking. It all comes down to regulators. These are the crucial modules for differentiating armour and shield tanking. You can't dual tank effectively if you need to use regulators, as they take up module slots for your armour. They also are much more effective when fitted in conjunction with shield rechargers, further creating a synergy in a shield tank loadout, and ensuring shield tanking is more effective on shield suits, due to the percentage nature of rechargers. Shield regulators have to maintain their current worth, and I fear that reducing everyone's delay will diminish this. Or put another way. If everyone has short shield delay, why would you fit regulators on your suit? If you are a shield suit, would you not feel encouraged to fit armour instead? If you were an armour suit, would you not feel encouraged to pair your armour with shields? Afterall your delay isn't so short that you feel you would need a regulator or two, so why not? Also you end up with shield suits with bad armour stats but good shield stats, vs armour suits with good armour stats and good shield stats. Whereas if both had to fit shield regulators to get good shield stats you couldn't have both good shields and armour.
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Four Horseman Tactical Agency 2	Posted - 2015.09.22 13:54:00 - [37] - Quote dzizur wrote: What's wrong with a glass cannon fit? And could anyone give me one sensible argument why everyone wants TTK to be longer and longer and longer everytime. Like wtf, it's enough I have to empty 2 full clips from my sidearm to kill a dude... Probably because what works in EVE just wouldn't work for Dust , I play Dust because every gun fight is a war within it's self and it's not child like , like COD where your shot one or two times and your dead , that's not substance and if you think that a glass cannon would work , try running them for the next month and find out how well you would do . The fact that no matter if you stack shield mods in all the highs , you would never meet or top armor stacked in the lows and while you have movement penalties , it's nothing like the dep-delays of shield mods because shields get the initial damage where as armor is the tank that allows you to seek and find cover to regen . You would get wreaked using " glass cannon's " in today's Dust because of the state of shields , weapons that just **** shields and the fact that Caldari has little to no base armor and even less in base reps . You could say YOU do it but that kind of dictate the style that OTHERS MUST PLAY , some might not like that style and I see no problems with people who play Caldari using armor , it's a choice I know that attracts me to this game , the fact that I don't have to be a clone of anyone else and I'm not locked into a particular look or playstyle . That's one of the reasons that I say , everything that works in EVE just wouldn't work in Dust and there are too many shooters out there that tout customization and do a fine job with it , where you just don't feel like your being locked into a particular playstyle or look even . Destiny and Warframe to name two . I don't know why you couldn't get rid of damage mods when you have a damage boost from the warbarge but that's neither here nor there and that's not saying that I advocate that but if damage mods were to get canned , you do have a boost from the warbarge that some are calling for to be removed , at least then it would serve an actual purpose instead of a stomp booster like it is now . Teamwork is really important - said the Tyrannosarus Rex from Kung Fury .
WyrmHero1945 Finesse Soldiers 689	Posted - 2015.09.22 14:12:00 - [38] - Quote I agree with you. Shield recharge and delay are fine. CalSent/Mando maybe should get 25 HP/s, but every else seems ok and I like that delay/recharge is dependent on suit size/role. Damage mods on the lows would be the best solution, with stacking penalties applied if there are high slot mods already equipped. That, or nerf the ScR. Which would then be like it used to, a kill assists machine. Need to be very careful in that nerf.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.22 14:13:00 - [39] - Quote TTK is a thing that needs to remain balanced. Too short and the depth of using cover, pressure/retreat, damage profiles, movement, regen and support gets lost. Too long and the depth of positioning, flanking, strategy and EWAR get's lost. TTK being too long emphasises the numbers advantage of higher sp players. TTK being too short reduces fitting variety as everyone scrambles to fit enough protection and damage. I think it's pretty balanced right now. I don't see a need to mess with it.
Alcina Nektaria KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion. 328	Posted - 2015.09.22 14:34:00 - [40] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: -insert sad caldari life here- this.....just.........lol Check Us Out! KEQ and ROFL. Diplomat. I lik 2 psh rd buttnz


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 26	Posted - 2015.09.22 14:46:00 - [41] - Quote Press Attache wrote: MexXx Dust-Slayer wrote: Another option would be to have shield regulators increase resistance by about 4/5/6% to help the balance against damage mods, and/or having regulators increase the shield damage threshold by %. Having regs increase the damage threshold is an interesting idea, provided regs don't get buffed in any other way. If they get a bump in their current stat, that should be tried first before this option, but if shields are still struggling after the first couple of buffs this idea should get some looking into. we just discussed faction based shield thresholds, even role based, something like this CA 12 MI 10 GA 8 AM 6 Caldari: Assault 12 Commando 12 Sentinel 11 Scout 11 Logistics 10 "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Asad Thahab-Jabal Incorruptibles 98	Posted - 2015.09.22 14:50:00 - [42] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We just discussed faction based shield thresholds, even role based, something like this CA 12 MI 10 GA 8 AM 6 Caldari: Assault 12 Commando 12 Sentinel 11 Scout 11 Logistics 10 What is the current threshold? 6? Ripley Riley is on safari until Oct 9th. I will represent him until he returns.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 26	Posted - 2015.09.22 14:52:00 - [43] - Quote Asad Thahab-Jabal wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: We just discussed faction based shield thresholds, even role based, something like this CA 12 MI 10 GA 8 AM 6 Caldari: Assault 12 Commando 12 Sentinel 11 Scout 11 Logistics 10 What is the current threshold? 6? yeah "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.09.22 15:06:00 - [44] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: the shield stuff is multi-stage. Stage 1 is straightening out recharge delays. 1A: This has a massive effect not only on survivability, but on fitting choices. Common wisdom is that a proper shield tank on an assault (if you don't want to just give in and put ferroscales on) is three regulators in the lows. That means a calassault has to devote eight slots to their tank versus a gal/amarr assault's four. One of the lows on a gal/am assault is usually reserved for biotics, sometimes two but usually two ferros or plates and one or two reps. By making regulators less mandatory for a good shield fit rather than absolutely critical it improves the calassault (and to a lesser degree, shield tanked minmatar suits) by a good deal. Suddenly damps, biotics and other modules become an option. Stage 2 is adjusting modules so they aren't ass. Stage 3 is making fun of me and my ideas. Seriously, I actually have a sense of humor. I can take it as good as I dish. Stage 4 is comparing usage and, more importantly Kill per spawn metrics with armor to see if we're on the right track. Lastly, if we find that we cannot stabilize Shields in a similar Kill/spawn range as the Armor mods, THEN we look at toning down armor. There is no one on the CPM who is delusional enough to believe that this is the magic bullet that will save all. I push it because lowering shield delays means that fitting options are less automatically dictated for shield suit players if they don't want to have to fit armor for viability. On number one, totally agree. I've mentioned this a few times in the past, though then I was pointing more to tanks as the disparity is painfully obvious there. I mean really, why do shields HAVE to fit for full D in all slots, or in the tanks case at current, full D AND CPU/PG, to get a tank resembling the armor version minus the damage mods and heatsinks? It's less an issue in shield suits, but still there. Case in point, my Cal assault stacked with armor, damage mods, and a freaking rep hive. Thing can be quite a beast, yet still worse than it's armor counterpart.
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 707	Posted - 2015.09.22 15:08:00 - [45] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Asad Thahab-Jabal wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: We just discussed faction based shield thresholds, even role based, something like this CA 12 MI 10 GA 8 AM 6 Caldari: Assault 12 Commando 12 Sentinel 11 Scout 11 Logistics 10 What is the current threshold? 6? yeah So much yes please, I suggested this to cross and am glad it's made it this far. Current threshold leaves me quite dead even at 100m from a single MLT CR. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Lightning35 Delta514 The Warlords Legion No Context 1	Posted - 2015.09.22 15:15:00 - [46] - Quote Well, when fitted properly, that tanked Amarr assault has $h!t regen and you can kill him after your shields recharge again. And that Gallente assault, uses 1 slot for speed to get in range. And shields have more regen then a galass has armor rep, and more shields than armor. Again, WHEN FITTED PROPERLY. CEO of T-W-L YouTube- Lightning35 Delta514 Twitter- @LD3514
Zene Ren Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 141	Posted - 2015.09.22 15:22:00 - [47] - Quote Why can't we just introduce resistance mods, can anyone tell me this? Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.22 15:24:00 - [48] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: we just discussed faction based shield thresholds, even role based, something like this CA 12 MI 10 GA 8 AM 6 Caldari: Assault 12 Commando 12 Sentinel 11 Scout 11 Logistics 10 I really feel shield thresholds are a red herring. I don't see that they make much in game difference at all. Correct me if Im wrong, but isn't the threshold just the amount of damage your shields can take before the regen delay kicks in? How often do you get hit by something doing less than 13 damage?
Loyal Glasses G.L.O.R.Y 93	Posted - 2015.09.22 15:24:00 - [49] - Quote My thoughts, the Shield to Armor in this game is fine. The problem is with the damage Weapons & Grenades do. Let's tweak those numbers for this coming hotfix Glasses of the Loyal Variety > "The dead are notoriously unproductive "
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 1	Posted - 2015.09.22 15:52:00 - [50] - Quote Just a small idea regarding the shield depleted delay. I think this should be a race stat, I.e don't change with the role. Let's for argument say all Caldari roles gets the same shield depleted delay as the Sentinel (1s). This would give rise to an interesting mechanic where it would be more beneficial to fully deplete your shield rather than taking cover immediately. However, by doing so will risk immediate death as our armour is paper thin. Enemies have to try and finish us off completely before we duck into cover, or make sure they don't drain the shields completely before dealing the final blow.

Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.22 16:05:00 - [51] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: the shield stuff is multi-stage. Stage 1 is straightening out recharge delays. 1A: This has a massive effect not only on survivability, but on fitting choices. Common wisdom is that a proper shield tank on an assault (if you don't want to just give in and put ferroscales on) is three regulators in the lows. That means a calassault has to devote eight slots to their tank versus a gal/amarr assault's four. One of the lows on a gal/am assault is usually reserved for biotics, sometimes two but usually two ferros or plates and one or two reps. By making regulators less mandatory for a good shield fit rather than absolutely critical it improves the calassault (and to a lesser degree, shield tanked minmatar suits) by a good deal. Suddenly damps, biotics and other modules become an option. I don't think three regulators is common wisdom. Two maybe, three incurs stacking penalties. Not saying people don't fit three, and some people can make do with one. Consider these two fits: Caldari assault Gallente assault Both have two damage mods, two hp mods, three regen mods and a biotic. The Gal assault has a bit more hp, the Cal assault has slightly faster regen. They are similar and so provide a good comparison. In my opinion, the faster regen on the Caldari assault is not enough to make up for lower hp and the fact they have to wait for regen to kick in. The solution isn't to make the suit more like an armour tank, by reducing the delay, or increasing the hp, it's to increase the regen bonus on the energiser. This maintains the shield distinction of lower hp, delay, and faster regen. I don't know where the idea of a common 8 vs 4 slot tank investment comes from. It's probably more like 6 for shields and 5 for armour. I'm all for promoting module fitting variety, I just think targeting regulator use is risky as they are so important for discouraging dual tanking.
Rhydra L Wong CLASS WAR NOT RACE WAR 37	Posted - 2015.09.22 16:14:00 - [52] - Quote I think a big issue is the philosophy behind squading with other players and also FW. Caldari are best at long distances. As a squad of all Caldari this would be wonderful be rarely happens. There needs to be a game mode where the selection of gear is limited to one faction. Like, all Caldari vs. all Gallente. I've posted about this before, but essentially this is what FW needs to become. Take the "progression" tab, rename it "factions", limit FW dropsuit choices to those premade fits (with a great deal of changes). Now we will be able to see how our dropsuits and tech (like shields) are supposed to be deployed in battle. This would also work to actually give players a vision on how/why to upgrade their suits. No veterans or anyone really playing past a few days uses that tab for an actual guide. It could easily become one in this scenerio. ....and yeah, maybe reduce or penalize stacking of damage mods, and also just bump up the ammount of shields we get per module a little, and fix the calmando.
Murder Medic Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 116	Posted - 2015.09.22 16:22:00 - [53] - Quote Rhydra L Wong wrote: I think a big issue is the philosophy behind squading with other players and also FW. Caldari are best at long distances. As a squad of all Caldari this would be wonderful be rarely happens. There needs to be a game mode where the selection of gear is limited to one faction. Like, all Caldari vs. all Gallente. I've posted about this before, but essentially this is what FW needs to become. Take the "progression" tab, rename it "factions", limit FW dropsuit choices to those premade fits (with a great deal of changes). Now we will be able to see how our dropsuits and tech (like shields) are supposed to be deployed in battle. This would also work to actually give players a vision on how/why to upgrade their suits. No veterans or anyone really playing past a few days uses that tab for an actual guide. It could easily become one in this scenerio. ....and yeah, maybe reduce or penalize stacking of damage mods, and also just bump up the ammount of shields we get per module a little, and fix the calmando. That would be so silly. I could go to war, but that AK47 was made in Russia...soooo, guess I'm just gonna go read a book.
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries 4	Posted - 2015.09.22 16:57:00 - [54] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: the shield stuff is multi-stage. Stage 1 is straightening out recharge delays. 1A: This has a massive effect not only on survivability, but on fitting choices. Common wisdom is that a proper shield tank on an assault (if you don't want to just give in and put ferroscales on) is three regulators in the lows. That means a calassault has to devote eight slots to their tank versus a gal/amarr assault's four. One of the lows on a gal/am assault is usually reserved for biotics, sometimes two but usually two ferros or plates and one or two reps. By making regulators less mandatory for a good shield fit rather than absolutely critical it improves the calassault (and to a lesser degree, shield tanked minmatar suits) by a good deal. Suddenly damps, biotics and other modules become an option. Stage 2 is adjusting modules so they aren't ass. Stage 3 is making fun of me and my ideas. Seriously, I actually have a sense of humor. I can take it as good as I dish. Stage 4 is comparing usage and, more importantly Kill per spawn metrics with armor to see if we're on the right track. Lastly, if we find that we cannot stabilize Shields in a similar Kill/spawn range as the Armor mods, THEN we look at toning down armor. There is no one on the CPM who is delusional enough to believe that this is the magic bullet that will save all. I push it because lowering shield delays means that fitting options are less automatically dictated for shield suit players if they don't want to have to fit armor for viability. I don't think that you get it still.....I am saying that Caldari suits can not compete with the damage output of the armor suits. I don't necessarily need a nerf to armor. By allowing the damage mods to be in either the low or high slots will allow shield suits to compete. We can restrict it to so that you can only put damage mods in either the high OR the low slots in one fit and not both. I'm not saying that that will solve all of the problems but it would be a major step. "Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit" Check RND out here
TIGER SHARK1501 Savage Bullet RUST415 405	Posted - 2015.09.22 16:59:00 - [55] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: [img]http://i.imgur.com/wIXicea.png[/img] Ah ha ha!! =ƒÿé
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries 4	Posted - 2015.09.22 17:00:00 - [56] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Ydubbs81 RND wrote: Everytime I post in one of those CPM threads about shields before it gets locked...my point gets glossed over. Does anyone else agree that shield regen/recharge is not the problem with the shield tanking? Shield tanking is not viable cause you are melted by the double & triple damage modded amarr and gallente suits. Not to mention throwing flux grenades are like nukes to shield tankers and they are easier to use than a locus grenade. I'm not familiar with all of the CPM's style of play or preferences but I do know one has been a longtime advocate for armor and has expressed many times that he felt that shields are in a great place (before he became CPM). Now, in Aeon's threads, everyone is agrees on what the problem with shield tanking is? I don't undersand at all. It is a simple thing to understand. Armor suit maintain their primary tank and can stack double or triple damage mods on ARs or laser based weapons (20% damage bonus to shields). How can a shield tanker compete with the damage output if we have to sacrifice our primary tank to keep up with their damage output? In even clearer terms....amarr assault gets to don 700hp of armor with damage mods on a weapon that has a 20% damage bonus to shields. Caldari assault would have a bit over 500 shields if we sacrifice two highs for damage mods. In order to compensate, you see cal assaults with armor plates. Armor tanking on a cal assault defeats the purpose of shield tanking. One plate may be ok but I see 400 hp of armor on cal assaults regularly. Does everyone disagree with this being the big issue or do people agree that the focus needs to lie here? I think every CPM is pretty unanimous that we generally hate damage mods existing and if we had our way they'd probably go the way of the Dodo. Mostly because of situations exactly like you pointed out, which leaves us with one of two options: Either we move to introduce damage mods in the lows to boost shield usage in some six degrees of separation way, or we move for the removal or discouraged use of damage mods in the highs. It's sort of a pickle, for certain, and I don't think we have a solution. What we are working on though is a multi-step shield proposal (you've seen step one, of which there are about four) because it is something we can advocate changing because it's been needing an overhaul anyway. Shields haven't seen much change since the early days of Uprising and the current system is chaotic and confusing. Which, we're all sort of hesitant to change armor, or damage mods, or basically anything until that system actually has some sort of planned and functional design. All we're asking for is some feedback and patience. Yes, we understand that the current meta is armor. Yes, we understand that many players feel that a quick solution would be to nerf armor. We're not interested in quick band-aid solutions though, we're interested in long-term benefits that we don't have to keep having these sort of conversations over and to do that we need a functional design that we can work off of. We want shields and armor to have their unique playstyles and it has always been a design philosophy in Dust 514 that armor was about high HP while shields were about high Regen. That is our baseline. Cross Atu wrote: #1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation #2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity #3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step. #4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods. Right....and I'm not asking for an armor nerf. We can remove damage mods altogether or we can allow damage mods to be able to fit in either the high OR low slot in any fit. "Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit" Check RND out here
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries 4	Posted - 2015.09.22 17:04:00 - [57] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Jonny D Buelle wrote: The problem is shield regen and shield delay. Amarr and Gallente weapons are anti-shield weapons just like Caldari and Minmatar weapons are anti-armour. Flux grenades are a problem and need to take a look at. Even a basic flux is powerful enough to wipe a Caldari Sent's shields. My proposal is to nerf its damage vs infantry but keep the damage against vechiles the same. I have no idea about numbers. I also agree that shield tanking is not viable as to have semi-decent shields, you are stacking shield mods in your highs and have no place to put damage modifiers or mylolfibs. Why not either make a new slot for damage modifiers in the suit or make it so they can be fitted in either high slots or low slots. Mostly because of the impact it'd have on TTK. Just imagine a Minmatar Assault running damage mods in the lows and Myos in the highs. He'd have to sacrifice his armor tank to do so making him easier to kill. Right now, we have myofibs and explosive weapons which is probably the most cheesy thing a player can do at this point. So, it is what it is. "Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit" Check RND out here
Avallo Kantor 869	Posted - 2015.09.22 17:12:00 - [58] - Quote One idea I mentioned in the original shield discussion (the one that got derailed) was the idea of only having one shield recharge delay stat, and having that number then be modulated by current shield hp to be different. For example, assuming a 10 second recharge delay (large number to make easy math): At 50% shield hp the recharge delay is 50% so only 5 seconds, At 25% shield hp the recharge delay is 75% so 7.5 seconds. (We could always have a different algorithm if this is too simple / bad) The end result is that it better encourages shield users to make use of cover as they can have extremely low recharges if they can pop in and out of cover each time only requiring a fraction of their normal recharge delay. Armor tanks however would almost never benefit from this as they would always incur their full recharge delay, even if the values are not significantly different from other races. The other more dramatic (and probably stupid) idea I had was to make regen a function over time. Basically every suit would have a 1 second delay, and a regular shield delay. After the one second delay shields begin to regenerate at 1hp/sec with the regen rate increasing linearly until it reaches 100% of the suits regen value at it's normal shield recharge delay. Using simple math again, assuming a 11 second recharge delay and 100 regen, then it would start out at 1 hp /sec at the one second mark, and increase by 10 hp / sec every second until it reached max (or full shield recharge). With damage restarting the delay (and regen rate) as per normal. "Mind Blown" - CCP Rattati
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries 4	Posted - 2015.09.22 17:13:00 - [59] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Weapon profiles are a bit of a moot point, because whilst laser weapons do +20% to shields, explosives do +20% to armour. Also both combat rifles, and crucially HMGs, do +15% to armour. So I don't think weapon profiles are the issue. If we consider damage mods, yes armour suits can fit them without sacrificing tank. However, unlike armour suits, shield suits can improve their regen with regulators, without sacrificing tank. Now, energisers are in an interesting place, as they compete with both extenders and damage mods, and regulators need to be used with them to gain full effect. That's a lot of sacrifice, and I believe that it should come with a high reward. Also, the damage mod argument only really works in a world where you only fit tank and damage. There are other low slot modules that armour suits would have to sacrifice tank to fit. I'm not saying shields and armour are balanced, I'm just saying it's not a problem with weapon profiles or damage mods. since when does the CR and RR put out 15% bonus against armor? The last update I remember was to make both of them -10/+10 towards shield/armor. And about your damage mod point.....most people do is fit tank and damage on those armor fits. When guys are running around with 700+hp armor and 190hp shields, you already know what they're running. "Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit" Check RND out here
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries 4	Posted - 2015.09.22 17:17:00 - [60] - Quote WyrmHero1945 wrote: I agree with you. Shield recharge and delay are fine. CalSent/Mando maybe should get 25 HP/s, but every else seems ok and I like that delay/recharge is dependent on suit size/role. Damage mods on the lows would be the best solution, with stacking penalties applied if there are high slot mods already equipped. That, or nerf the ScR. Which would then be like it used to, a kill assists machine. Need to be very careful in that nerf. This guy gets it. CCP could rig it so that you can only use damage mod in the high OR low slot but not both.... Just in the same way you can't use two cloaks on one fit. "Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit" Check RND out here

Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries 4	Posted - 2015.09.22 17:20:00 - [61] - Quote Avallo Kantor wrote: One idea I mentioned in the original shield discussion (the one that got derailed) was the idea of only having one shield recharge delay stat, and having that number then be modulated by current shield hp to be different. For example, assuming a 10 second recharge delay (large number to make easy math): At 50% shield hp the recharge delay is 50% so only 5 seconds, At 25% shield hp the recharge delay is 75% so 7.5 seconds. (We could always have a different algorithm if this is too simple / bad) The end result is that it better encourages shield users to make use of cover as they can have extremely low recharges if they can pop in and out of cover each time only requiring a fraction of their normal recharge delay. Armor tanks however would almost never benefit from this as they would always incur their full recharge delay, even if the values are not significantly different from other races. The other more dramatic (and probably stupid) idea I had was to make regen a function over time. Basically every suit would have a 1 second delay, and a regular shield delay. After the one second delay shields begin to regenerate at 1hp/sec with the regen rate increasing linearly until it reaches 100% of the suits regen value at it's normal shield recharge delay. Using simple math again, assuming a 11 second recharge delay and 100 regen, then it would start out at 1 hp /sec at the one second mark, and increase by 10 hp / sec every second until it reached max (or full shield recharge). With damage restarting the delay (and regen rate) as per normal. I can build a sui that gets about 2secs on the delay and about 50hp of recharge/sec on a Cal assault.......with a total ehp of 800hp. I don't see anything wrong with this. The delays and recharge are fine now if you use the mods. But none of that will help you if you get fluxed (which is much easier to use than a locus nade) or a scrambler takes out 75% of your tank in one sec. "Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit" Check RND out here
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.22 17:39:00 - [62] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: since when does the CR and RR put out 15% bonus against armor? The last update I remember was to make both of them -10/+10 towards shield/armor. And about your damage mod point.....most people do is fit tank and damage on those armor fits. When guys are running around with 700+hp armor and 190hp shields, you already know what they're running. Rail rifles are +10% to armour. Combat rifles, SMGs and HMGs are +15%. It's been like this for ages. These weapons absolutely destroy armour suits. And just because many people fit all armour and damage on their armour suits doesn't mean they haven't sacrificed anything to do so. Myofibs, Kincats, precision mods, profile dampeners, all good modules sacrificed for the armour + damage. Just because you can't fit shield extenders or damage mods in low slots doesn't mean they are useless. There's no reason you can't fit damage mods on a Caldari assault. The game should be balanced so this is competitive. And if you want to go for the pure tank + damage shield fit you should feel happy about the regulators fit in your low. Hence why I don't agree with reducing their value.
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries 4	Posted - 2015.09.22 17:55:00 - [63] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Ydubbs81 RND wrote: since when does the CR and RR put out 15% bonus against armor? The last update I remember was to make both of them -10/+10 towards shield/armor. And about your damage mod point.....most people do is fit tank and damage on those armor fits. When guys are running around with 700+hp armor and 190hp shields, you already know what they're running. Rail rifles are +10% to armour. Combat rifles, SMGs and HMGs are +15%. It's been like this for ages. These weapons absolutely destroy armour suits. And just because many people fit all armour and damage on their armour suits doesn't mean they haven't sacrificed anything to do so. Myofibs, Kincats, precision mods, profile dampeners, all good modules sacrificed for the armour + damage. Just because you can't fit shield extenders or damage mods in low slots doesn't mean they are useless. There's no reason you can't fit damage mods on a Caldari assault. The game should be balanced so this is competitive. And if you want to go for the pure tank + damage shield fit you should feel happy about the regulators fit in your low. Hence why I don't agree with reducing their value. CRs were never 15% to armor. It used to be -5%/+10% to shield/armor respectively. They have since modified it so both CR and RR yields the same bonus. I'm not saying that those other mods are not useful. They can be but when you are in a gunfight, nothing helps more than tank and damage. The other mods help especially with aiding with situational awareness, or escaping, flanking, etc. But when it's time to show down, a kincat can't help you to strafe faster. What good is a regulator when you are taking consistent damage on an objective? And of course, I can use damage mods on a cal fit but I'll be sacrificing my primary tank as opposed to armor fits which gets to keep their primary tank. And at the same time, they get to deal max damage. I can use armor plates to compensate but that defeats the purpose of shield tanking. I might as well, just use an armor suit which is better for it. "Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit" Check RND out here
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.22 18:04:00 - [64] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: CRs were never 15% to armor. It used to be -5%/+10% to shield/armor respectively. They have since modified it so both CR and RR yields the same bonus. I'm not saying that those other mods are not useful. They can be but when you are in a gunfight, nothing helps more than tank and damage. The other mods help especially with aiding with situational awareness, or escaping, flanking, etc. But when it's time to show down, a kincat can't help you to strafe faster. What good is a regulator when you are taking consistent damage on an objective? And of course, I can use damage mods on a cal fit but I'll be sacrificing my primary tank as opposed to armor fits which gets to keep their primary tank. And at the same time, they get to deal max damage. I can use armor plates to compensate but that defeats the purpose of shield tanking. I might as well, just use an armor suit which is better for it. I know it used to be -5/+10, but it's +/- 15 now. I'm afraid you are mistaken. I think if your aren't too worried about regen, and are taking constant damage without a break, you are better off with an armour suit. That's by design. If you can take cover and regen for 4 - 6 seconds, you are better with shields. At least you would be if they balanced shields vs armour. High hp fits are meant to be the realm of armour tanking. Whereas shields are meant to be able to fit higher regen.
shaman oga Dead Man's Game 4	Posted - 2015.09.22 18:55:00 - [65] - Quote Before focusing too much on Cal suits (i have a lot of fun with a shield tanked cal ass), currently minmatar can't shield tank, not even the 5/2 medium frame, total shield HP are low (acceptable/comprehensible), shield delays are literally terrible (not acceptable). In a similar way of gallente being masters at repair, minmatar should have better delays or recharge values. Regressed to blueberry level.
Aeon Amadi 12	Posted - 2015.09.22 19:02:00 - [66] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Press Attache wrote: MexXx Dust-Slayer wrote: Another option would be to have shield regulators increase resistance by about 4/5/6% to help the balance against damage mods, and/or having regulators increase the shield damage threshold by %. Having regs increase the damage threshold is an interesting idea, provided regs don't get buffed in any other way. If they get a bump in their current stat, that should be tried first before this option, but if shields are still struggling after the first couple of buffs this idea should get some looking into. we just discussed faction based shield thresholds, even role based, something like this CA 12 MI 10 GA 8 AM 6 Caldari: Assault 12 Commando 12 Sentinel 11 Scout 11 Logistics 10 Change it up to: Scout 12 Logistics 12 Assault 11 Commando 11 Sentinel 10 That way it follows along with the EHP / Speed Progression :3 Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog Skype: nomistrav
Aeon Amadi 12	Posted - 2015.09.22 19:03:00 - [67] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Before focusing too much on Cal suits (i have a lot of fun with a shield tanked cal ass), currently minmatar can't shield tank, not even the 5/2 medium frame, total shield HP are low (acceptable/comprehensible), shield delays are literally terrible (not acceptable). In a similar way of gallente being masters at repair, minmatar should have better delays or recharge values. CPM Shield proposal will be shield delays in a major way. Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog Skype: nomistrav
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.22 19:14:00 - [68] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: I don't think that you get it still.....I am saying that Caldari suits can not compete with the damage output of the armor suits. I don't necessarily need a nerf to armor. By allowing the damage mods to be in either the low or high slots will allow shield suits to compete. We can restrict it to so that you can only put damage mods in either the high OR the low slots in one fit and not both. I'm not saying that that will solve all of the problems but it would be a major step. I'm not discussing damage mods in a shield mods thread. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
XxBlazikenxX Ancient Exiles. Ushra'Khan 2	Posted - 2015.09.22 19:15:00 - [69] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Ydubbs81 RND wrote: I don't think that you get it still.....I am saying that Caldari suits can not compete with the damage output of the armor suits. I don't necessarily need a nerf to armor. By allowing the damage mods to be in either the low or high slots will allow shield suits to compete. We can restrict it to so that you can only put damage mods in either the high OR the low slots in one fit and not both. I'm not saying that that will solve all of the problems but it would be a major step. I'm not discussing damage mods in a shield mods thread. This isn't your thread so stfu AVERT YOUR EYES!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.22 19:16:00 - [70] - Quote XxBlazikenxX wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Ydubbs81 RND wrote: I don't think that you get it still.....I am saying that Caldari suits can not compete with the damage output of the armor suits. I don't necessarily need a nerf to armor. By allowing the damage mods to be in either the low or high slots will allow shield suits to compete. We can restrict it to so that you can only put damage mods in either the high OR the low slots in one fit and not both. I'm not saying that that will solve all of the problems but it would be a major step. I'm not discussing damage mods in a shield mods thread. This isn't your thread so stfu No. Ever notice that caldari weapons tend to hit harder? Does the ARR need damage mods to be competitive? the Kaalakiota rail doesn't I assure you. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

XxBlazikenxX Ancient Exiles. Ushra'Khan 2	Posted - 2015.09.22 19:17:00 - [71] - Quote Second of all, this is not a thread about shield mods+î it's a thread about shields in general. AVERT YOUR EYES!
XxBlazikenxX Ancient Exiles. Ushra'Khan 2	Posted - 2015.09.22 19:21:00 - [72] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: XxBlazikenxX wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Ydubbs81 RND wrote: I don't think that you get it still.....I am saying that Caldari suits can not compete with the damage output of the armor suits. I don't necessarily need a nerf to armor. By allowing the damage mods to be in either the low or high slots will allow shield suits to compete. We can restrict it to so that you can only put damage mods in either the high OR the low slots in one fit and not both. I'm not saying that that will solve all of the problems but it would be a major step. I'm not discussing damage mods in a shield mods thread. This isn't your thread so stfu No. Ever notice that caldari weapons tend to hit harder? Does the AARR need damage mods to be competitive? the Kallakiota rail doesn't I assure you. I'm not talking about anything relevant to the topic of the thread here. I'm saying that the thread maker decides what is talked abput in the thread. If he wants to talk about damage mods it's his decision. I don't care if you're a CPM or the frickin King of Spain, stfu and let the OP speak. AVERT YOUR EYES!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.22 19:23:00 - [73] - Quote XxBlazikenxX wrote: Second of all, this is not a thread about shield mods+î it's a thread about shields in general. Cool. I'm sorry, but the damage mods in high issue wasn't on our radar this week, we were working on other things. maybe next week. If people insist on berating us for not doing something about it we might push the discussion back to the week after. Getting mad because we aren't doing things your way on your timetable isn't going to accomplish anything. Rattati gets final say on what goes where, and how. We don't. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Murder Medic Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 117	Posted - 2015.09.22 19:24:00 - [74] - Quote XxBlazikenxX wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: XxBlazikenxX wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Ydubbs81 RND wrote: I don't think that you get it still.....I am saying that Caldari suits can not compete with the damage output of the armor suits. I don't necessarily need a nerf to armor. By allowing the damage mods to be in either the low or high slots will allow shield suits to compete. We can restrict it to so that you can only put damage mods in either the high OR the low slots in one fit and not both. I'm not saying that that will solve all of the problems but it would be a major step. I'm not discussing damage mods in a shield mods thread. This isn't your thread so stfu No. Ever notice that caldari weapons tend to hit harder? Does the AARR need damage mods to be competitive? the Kallakiota rail doesn't I assure you. I'm not talking about anything relevant to the topic of the thread here. I'm saying that the thread maker decides what is talked abput in the thread. If he wants to talk about damage mods it's his decision. I don't care if you're a CPM or the frickin King of Spain, stfu and let the OP speak. This CPM is very ego-centric, if you haven't noticed
XxBlazikenxX Ancient Exiles. Ushra'Khan 2	Posted - 2015.09.22 19:26:00 - [75] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: XxBlazikenxX wrote: Second of all, this is not a thread about shield mods+î it's a thread about shields in general. Cool. I'm sorry, but the damage mods in high issue wasn't on our radar this week, we were working on other things. maybe next week. If people insist on berating us for not doing something about it we might push the discussion back to the week after. Getting mad because we aren't doing things your way on your timetable isn't going to accomplish anything. Rattati gets final say on what goes where, and how. We don't. I don't really care about this thread, I just was surfing the forum and saw your post and had to reply to it. I really don't care about shields and balancing. More principle than anything. AVERT YOUR EYES!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.22 19:29:00 - [76] - Quote He brought an issue. I answered it as best I can. He jumped down my throat for not giving the exact answer he wanted. I stopped giving a crap about what he wanted at that point, because I'm not going to be berated because he doesn't like the facts as presented. It's that simple. Get it straight, I'm not going to pander to people. If I give a straight answer and get called a goddamn idiot, you can expect me to not continue bothering to be nice. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Kalante Schiffer Ancient Exiles. 1	Posted - 2015.09.22 19:30:00 - [77] - Quote The problem with the caldari is that it's not as versatile as the gall assault. The gall assault can tank and dps and regen relatively fast too. The caldari can only tank. The biggest problem is the shield delay and the scrambler rifle doing 20+ damage to shields. Who ever came up with that is a moron. K+öL.2013.ae.SEP. Slayer of baby snakes.
XxBlazikenxX Ancient Exiles. Ushra'Khan 2	Posted - 2015.09.22 19:37:00 - [78] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: He brought an issue. I answered it as best I can. He jumped down my throat for not giving the exact answer he wanted. I stopped giving a crap about what he wanted at that point, because I'm not going to be berated because he doesn't like the facts as presented. It's that simple. Get it straight, I'm not going to pander to people. If I give a straight answer and get called a goddamn idiot, you can expect me to not continue bothering to be nice. That's right, keep filling the qq bucket. Not like I'm baiting you or anything... AVERT YOUR EYES!
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy No Context 4	Posted - 2015.09.22 20:00:00 - [79] - Quote Just a teeny tiny suggestion. Make it so armor suirs cannot regen shield before their armor is fully repped. And if you really want to maintain balance, make it the inverse for shield suits. However, Minmatar can be special in that they can repair both at the same time, giving them an interesting attribute. I am the Anti-FoTM Fear my Cal Assault and Amarr Scout!
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Four Horseman Tactical Agency 2	Posted - 2015.09.22 20:15:00 - [80] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Just a teeny tiny suggestion. Make it so armor suirs cannot regen shield before their armor is fully repped. And if you really want to maintain balance, make it the inverse for shield suits. However, Minmatar can be special in that they can repair both at the same time, giving them an interesting attribute. Yeah , along with the fact that they have better mobility then any other suit and can dual tank . Yeah , give them more ... Teamwork is really important - said the Tyrannosarus Rex from Kung Fury .

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.22 20:23:00 - [81] - Quote XxBlazikenxX wrote: That's right, keep filling the qq bucket. Not like I'm baiting you or anything... well played. I should know better than to forumwar before coffee. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
WyrmHero1945 Finesse Soldiers 691	Posted - 2015.09.22 20:26:00 - [82] - Quote ScR is 20% damage to shields?
Asad Thahab-Jabal Incorruptibles 105	Posted - 2015.09.22 20:27:00 - [83] - Quote WyrmHero1945 wrote: ScR is 20% damage to shields? +20% damage vs. shields, -20% damage vs. armor. Ripley Riley is on safari until Oct 9th. I will represent him until he returns.
WyrmHero1945 Finesse Soldiers 691	Posted - 2015.09.22 20:36:00 - [84] - Quote Asad Thahab-Jabal wrote: WyrmHero1945 wrote: ScR is 20% damage to shields? +20% damage vs. shields, -20% damage vs. armor. I was thinking 15% to shields -15% to armor but AR with 10% still shreds shields lol. I don't know...
DAAAA BEAST Corrosive Synergy 3	Posted - 2015.09.22 20:41:00 - [85] - Quote [img]http://i.imgur.com/wIXicea.png[/img] CEO of Corrosive Synergy Fear the plasma from my cannon !
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.22 21:13:00 - [86] - Quote Weapon damage profiles
Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution 3	Posted - 2015.09.22 21:24:00 - [87] - Quote When a double damage nodded SCR is just under twice the DPS of your shield hit points you know theirs a problem.
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.09.22 21:49:00 - [88] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: XxBlazikenxX wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Ydubbs81 RND wrote: I don't think that you get it still.....I am saying that Caldari suits can not compete with the damage output of the armor suits. I don't necessarily need a nerf to armor. By allowing the damage mods to be in either the low or high slots will allow shield suits to compete. We can restrict it to so that you can only put damage mods in either the high OR the low slots in one fit and not both. I'm not saying that that will solve all of the problems but it would be a major step. I'm not discussing damage mods in a shield mods thread. This isn't your thread so stfu No. Ever notice that caldari weapons tend to hit harder? Does the ARR need damage mods to be competitive? the Kaalakiota rail doesn't I assure you. But don't you get more out of a weapon with a higher starting damage stat. So wouldn't a damage mod on a rail rifle actually be more effective than say an AR.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.22 21:57:00 - [89] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: [ But don't you get more out of a weapon with a higher starting damage stat. So wouldn't a damage mod on a rail rifle actually be more effective than say an AR. An AR does more dps, so if anything you get more value from pairing the damage mod with the AR.
jett it MONSTER SYNERGY 371	Posted - 2015.09.22 22:29:00 - [90] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: [img]http://i.imgur.com/wIXicea.png[/img] Ratatti thats the funniest thing ive seen all day you deserve a like, so very true though 1 flux and a few shots and those caldari are done :) Once the shield is gone on caldari they drop so fast it amazes me. jettGaming - Youtube

Echo 1991 Corrosive Synergy No Context 940	Posted - 2015.09.22 23:49:00 - [91] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: [ But don't you get more out of a weapon with a higher starting damage stat. So wouldn't a damage mod on a rail rifle actually be more effective than say an AR. An AR does more dps, so if anything you get more value from pairing the damage mod with the AR. It benefits Alpha damage weapons more than it does sustained fire. Wanna play eve?
NextDark Knight Hellstorm LLC 858	Posted - 2015.09.23 00:38:00 - [92] - Quote I don't mind the shields where they are : Sramblers are out of controls. Maybe a new shield tool?? Wouldn't mind seeing some kind of triage like tool that removes recharge delay when active. Like a caldari Logi LAV that glows and removes all shield delay while active in a small area. Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox. Dustin since 6/29/2012
Larkson Crazy Eye WarRavens Imperium Eden 309	Posted - 2015.09.23 06:47:00 - [93] - Quote I have to say when I'm not being a logi I play quite a bit Mim commando. I mostly do mid range support/suppressive fire with an assault mass driver and switch to the combat riffle to pick off close range targets. My standard 20k apex suit has something like 440 or so shields with two complex regs for low slots it gives it about a 2 second delay for recharge and just under 4 second depleted delay. I can constantly poke out of corners, pop a few shots off and reload. Within a few seconds my shields are full and I can keep fighting. Admittedly the suit being a heavy variant has a lot more armor, around 380 or so without any plates, than most shield drop suites normally have. That allows commando variants to soak a little dmg above what their shields can take and gives me the time to get to cover. That said without any armor repair mods you get something like 2.5 armor per second on the suite. This kind of means while my shields might be full in under 20 seconds no matter what, my armor takes almost 2 and half minutes to recover the smaller value. Even with just one complex regulator the shields recover is pretty good, while one armor repair mod doesn't really make a huge difference, making repairs still take close to a minute for the 400ish armor. Not to mention regulators are 2k cheaper than armor rep mods and easier to fit. Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician: "Everybody but me--CHARGE!"
Arirana Ancient Exiles. 1	Posted - 2015.09.23 08:00:00 - [94] - Quote Shield tankers shouldn't have a depleted recharge delay, just a recharge delay. This encourages shield tanking on shield tank suits, while the armor tankers are left with the increased depleted recharge delay penalty for trying to dual tank. This will help shield suits at least recover from getting fluxed faster. CPU/PG:HP ratio for shield extenders and ferroscale plates need to be balanced. Currently ferroscales offer more HP, for less CPU/PG cost and no penalty. Not good. Damage mods should become both a high slot module and a low slot module. Reasoning is balance, this is the forums logic is irrelevant. All HP modules, damage mods, kin cats, and code breakers (essentially most of the really useful modules) are PG heavy, the armor suits have much more PG than the shield suits. This combined with OP armor modules and dmg mods in highs give armor tankers too much of a fitting advantage. Either do something about the modules themselves, or the PG on shield suits. The Official Ari QQ Thread
Larkson Crazy Eye WarRavens Imperium Eden 309	Posted - 2015.09.23 08:14:00 - [95] - Quote Arirana wrote: Damage mods should become both a high slot module and a low slot module. Reasoning is balance, this is the forums logic is irrelevant. If such a thing was done armor users should get something in compensation. After all a shield user can at least put a regulator in a low slot, armor users havning nothing useful to put into high slots in terms of armor tanking. All they can do is put in dmg mods, PG extenders or try to buffer themselves better with their weak shields. Something like a regulator for armor users should go into the high slot. Not to mention there are several other mods that are restricted to high or low slots. Myro's are high only, kin cat and stamina mods are low only. Which means armor users are infinitely slower than shield users not just because of the penalty but because they have to sacrifice their HP to put on any speed boosting mods. If shield users feel Dmg mods are unfair because they would have to sacrifice high slots to use them, what about low slots to armor users? And honestly I doubt many shield users would even use dmg mods if they were in low slots. After all you don't get many on most shield drop suites. A dmg mod in a low slot would take away from what regulators you can equip and your potential speed and speed has always been the key to shield users survival. Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician: "Everybody but me--CHARGE!"
Zan Azikuchi G.R.A.V.E The Ditanian Alliance 258	Posted - 2015.09.23 13:20:00 - [96] - Quote Larkson Crazy Eye wrote: Arirana wrote: Damage mods should become both a high slot module and a low slot module. Reasoning is balance, this is the forums logic is irrelevant. If such a thing was done armor users should get something in compensation. After all a shield user can at least put a regulator in a low slot, armor users havning nothing useful to put into high slots in terms of armor tanking. All they can do is put in dmg mods, PG extenders or try to buffer themselves better with their weak shields. Something like a regulator for armor users should go into the high slot. Not to mention there are several other mods that are restricted to high or low slots. Myro's are high only, kin cat and stamina mods are low only. Which means armor users are infinitely slower than shield users not just because of the penalty but because they have to sacrifice their HP to put on any speed boosting mods. If shield users feel Dmg mods are unfair because they would have to sacrifice high slots to use them, what about low slots to armor users? And honestly I doubt many shield users would even use dmg mods if they were in low slots. After all you don't get many on most shield drop suites. A dmg mod in a low slot would take away from what regulators you can equip and your potential speed and speed has always been the key to shield users survival. I disagree, if you have both highs and lows capable of having damage mod's, guess what? That's a fourth damage mod you can fit, hell, you could probably fit 8 damage mod's on 1 armor suit for the giggles. Why compensate a suit that'll clearly get more out of something than what was proposed for the shield suits originally? Why BUFF an armor suit that's clearly more powerful at both CQC AND range than a shield suit? When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.23 13:52:00 - [97] - Quote Low slot damage mods is a bad idea as it opens up the whole issue of which side mods are fitted. Everyone that can't make the fit they want is going to be crying for their chosen mod to be on both sides. I can see it now. Armour tankers going "but it's not fair that I have to lose tank to fit kinkcats. Shield tankers are so much faster, I can't even hit them, they just run away and come back with full shields in seconds." Or how about "Armour tankers are completely underpowered because they get permascanned the whole time, and we can't fit dampeners without losing hp. But Shield tankers can run around completely invisible!" It will never end. There is more to the game than fitting tank + damage. Or shall we just declare any complaint anyone's ever had about scouts as meaningless, because, since all that matters is tank and damage, a scout's better scan precision, profile, speed and stamina is worthless? And finally, if you really only care about tank and damage, some shield tank modules go in low slots anyway! Fit your regulators, fit your damage mods in the high slots the regulators don't take up. Deal with it.
Solar Qoio Kang Lo Directorate 259	Posted - 2015.09.23 14:23:00 - [98] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: Everytime I post in one of those CPM threads about shields before it gets locked...my point gets glossed over. Does anyone else agree that shield regen/recharge is not the problem with the shield tanking? Shield tanking is not viable cause you are melted by the double & triple damage modded amarr and gallente suits. Not to mention throwing flux grenades are like nukes to shield tankers and they are easier to use than a locus grenade. I'm not familiar with all of the CPM's style of play or preferences but I do know one has been a longtime advocate for armor and has expressed many times that he felt that shields are in a great place (before he became CPM). Now, in Aeon's threads, everyone is agrees on what the problem with shield tanking is? I don't undersand at all. It is a simple thing to understand. Armor suit maintain their primary tank and can stack double or triple damage mods on ARs or laser based weapons (20% damage bonus to shields). How can a shield tanker compete with the damage output if we have to sacrifice our primary tank to keep up with their damage output? In even clearer terms....amarr assault gets to don 700hp of armor with damage mods on a weapon that has a 20% damage bonus to shields. Caldari assault would have a bit over 500 shields if we sacrifice two highs for damage mods. In order to compensate, you see cal assaults with armor plates. Armor tanking on a cal assault defeats the purpose of shield tanking. One plate may be ok but I see 400 hp of armor on cal assaults regularly. Does everyone disagree with this being the big issue or do people agree that the focus needs to lie here? They just need to finally nerf the Overpowered shield based weapons and the Assault RailRifle. Then ppl won't be complaining about being destroyed so when using shield based suits. "If you trip in a hallway you get a nosebleed, if you trip in life you cry." Winner of the Solar's Par-8 Flaylock pistol
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 720	Posted - 2015.09.23 14:52:00 - [99] - Quote All this madness inspired me to try a new take on caldari. Ck0 ass x5 dm x2 ferro x1 reactive Ishukone Never have I seen people melt so fast... Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.23 14:58:00 - [100] - Quote Devadander wrote: All this madness inspired me to try a new take on caldari. Ck0 ass x5 dm x2 ferro x1 reactive Ishukone Never have I seen people melt so fast... Do you know about stacking penalties?

Devadander Woodgrain Atari 720	Posted - 2015.09.23 15:01:00 - [101] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Devadander wrote: All this madness inspired me to try a new take on caldari. Ck0 ass x5 dm x2 ferro x1 reactive Ishukone Never have I seen people melt so fast... Do you know about stacking penalties? No. What are those? /sarcasm Lol don't hate cause I'm rockin 1.31 +5% +15% Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Zan Azikuchi G.R.A.V.E The Ditanian Alliance 258	Posted - 2015.09.23 15:12:00 - [102] - Quote Solar Qoio wrote: Ydubbs81 RND wrote: Everytime I post in one of those CPM threads about shields before it gets locked...my point gets glossed over. Does anyone else agree that shield regen/recharge is not the problem with the shield tanking? Shield tanking is not viable cause you are melted by the double & triple damage modded amarr and gallente suits. Not to mention throwing flux grenades are like nukes to shield tankers and they are easier to use than a locus grenade. I'm not familiar with all of the CPM's style of play or preferences but I do know one has been a longtime advocate for armor and has expressed many times that he felt that shields are in a great place (before he became CPM). Now, in Aeon's threads, everyone is agrees on what the problem with shield tanking is? I don't undersand at all. It is a simple thing to understand. Armor suit maintain their primary tank and can stack double or triple damage mods on ARs or laser based weapons (20% damage bonus to shields). How can a shield tanker compete with the damage output if we have to sacrifice our primary tank to keep up with their damage output? In even clearer terms....amarr assault gets to don 700hp of armor with damage mods on a weapon that has a 20% damage bonus to shields. Caldari assault would have a bit over 500 shields if we sacrifice two highs for damage mods. In order to compensate, you see cal assaults with armor plates. Armor tanking on a cal assault defeats the purpose of shield tanking. One plate may be ok but I see 400 hp of armor on cal assaults regularly. Does everyone disagree with this being the big issue or do people agree that the focus needs to lie here? They just need to finally nerf the Overpowered shield based weapons and the Assault RailRifle. Then ppl won't be complaining about being destroyed so when using shield based suits. Now hold on a second, why does the ARR have to take a hit with the nerf bat? It's already got a charge up time and a low ROF in comparison to every other weapon except the RR itself. Not to mention the ARR is one of the anti armor weapon's, nerfing that nerf's anti armor weapon's which are pretty insufficient unless your enemies are standing completely still. When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.23 15:17:00 - [103] - Quote Devadander wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Devadander wrote: All this madness inspired me to try a new take on caldari. Ck0 ass x5 dm x2 ferro x1 reactive Ishukone Never have I seen people melt so fast... Do you know about stacking penalties? No. What are those? /sarcasm Lol don't hate cause I'm rockin 1.31 +5% +15% Fair enough, just checking. I think you mean 1.21 + 5% + 15% then.
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.09.23 15:17:00 - [104] - Quote Arirana wrote: Shield tankers shouldn't have a depleted recharge delay, just a recharge delay. This encourages shield tanking on shield tank suits, while the armor tankers are left with the increased depleted recharge delay penalty for trying to dual tank. This will help shield suits at least recover from getting fluxed faster. CPU/PG:HP ratio for shield extenders and ferroscale plates need to be balanced. Currently ferroscales offer more HP, for less CPU/PG cost and no penalty. Not good. Damage mods should become both a high slot module and a low slot module. Reasoning is balance, this is the forums logic is irrelevant. All HP modules, damage mods, kin cats, and code breakers (essentially most of the really useful modules) are PG heavy, the armor suits have much more PG than the shield suits. This combined with OP armor modules and dmg mods in highs give armor tankers too much of a fitting advantage. Either do something about the modules themselves, or the PG on shield suits. Good stuff here. Basically, all suits should have the ability to fit for shield tank or armor tank. Then, base stats could fill the void and make shield or armor tanking on a suit more viable over others. So while you could armor tank a cal assault, it wouldn't be nearly as effective as it would shield tanking it. IE, less emphasis on PG/CPU and utility slot placements as a balancing point, and more on the getting base stats where they need to be to emphasis strengths and weaknesses.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.23 15:19:00 - [105] - Quote Zan Azikuchi wrote: Now hold on a second, why does the ARR have to take a hit with the nerf bat? It's already got a charge up time and a low ROF in comparison to every other weapon except the RR itself. Not to mention the ARR is one of the anti armor weapon's, nerfing that nerf's anti armor weapon's which are pretty insufficient unless your enemies are standing completely still. Judging by the fact everyone is using it, it seems the ARR is the best weapon in the game at the moment. Might just be because there is more armour tanking going on though.
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 720	Posted - 2015.09.23 15:20:00 - [106] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Devadander wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Devadander wrote: All this madness inspired me to try a new take on caldari. Ck0 ass x5 dm x2 ferro x1 reactive Ishukone Never have I seen people melt so fast... Do you know about stacking penalties? No. What are those? /sarcasm Lol don't hate cause I'm rockin 1.31 +5% +15% Fair enough, just checking. I think you mean 1.21 + 5% + 15% then. 1.31 I'm at work so I can't check, but I'm 99% sure. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.23 15:22:00 - [107] - Quote Devadander wrote: 1.31 I'm at work so I can't check, but I'm 99% sure. Stacking penalty calculator Five 7% bonus modules gives you a bonus of 21%.
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 193	Posted - 2015.09.23 15:28:00 - [108] - Quote Larkson Crazy Eye wrote: Arirana wrote: Damage mods should become both a high slot module and a low slot module. Reasoning is balance, this is the forums logic is irrelevant. If such a thing was done armor users should get something in compensation. After all a shield user can at least put a regulator in a low slot, armor users havning nothing useful to put into high slots in terms of armor tanking. All they can do is put in dmg mods, PG extenders or try to buffer themselves better with their weak shields. Something like a regulator for armor users should go into the high slot. Not to mention there are several other mods that are restricted to high or low slots. Myro's are high only, kin cat and stamina mods are low only. Which means armor users are infinitely slower than shield users not just because of the penalty but because they have to sacrifice their HP to put on any speed boosting mods. If shield users feel Dmg mods are unfair because they would have to sacrifice high slots to use them, what about low slots to armor users? And honestly I doubt many shield users would even use dmg mods if they were in low slots. After all you don't get many on most shield drop suites. A dmg mod in a low slot would take away from what regulators you can equip and your potential speed and speed has always been the key to shield users survival. No in many cases shield users don't "get to" put a regulator in their low slot... they have to, and regs are pretty expensive to fit. Weep not poor children, For life is this way, Murdering beauty and passion. I bring the light.
Zan Azikuchi G.R.A.V.E The Ditanian Alliance 258	Posted - 2015.09.23 15:47:00 - [109] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Zan Azikuchi wrote: Now hold on a second, why does the ARR have to take a hit with the nerf bat? It's already got a charge up time and a low ROF in comparison to every other weapon except the RR itself. Not to mention the ARR is one of the anti armor weapon's, nerfing that nerf's anti armor weapon's which are pretty insufficient unless your enemies are standing completely still. Judging by the fact everyone is using it, it seems the ARR is the best weapon in the game at the moment. Might just be because there is more armour tanking going on though. But even then, the ACR, as I've used, is just as capable, if not more so, as an anti armor weapon, simply because it can shoot on the dime and rip through shield's just as fast as ARR. Rather not get stuck with the ACR as my only viable option against armor fit's. When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 217	Posted - 2015.09.23 17:19:00 - [110] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: Everytime I post in one of those CPM threads about shields before it gets locked...my point gets glossed over. Does anyone else agree that shield regen/recharge is not the problem with the shield tanking? Shield tanking is not viable cause you are melted by the double & triple damage modded amarr and gallente suits. Not to mention throwing flux grenades are like nukes to shield tankers and they are easier to use than a locus grenade. I'm not familiar with all of the CPM's style of play or preferences but I do know one has been a longtime advocate for armor and has expressed many times that he felt that shields are in a great place (before he became CPM). Now, in Aeon's threads, everyone is agrees on what the problem with shield tanking is? I don't undersand at all. It is a simple thing to understand. Armor suit maintain their primary tank and can stack double or triple damage mods on ARs or laser based weapons (20% damage bonus to shields). How can a shield tanker compete with the damage output if we have to sacrifice our primary tank to keep up with their damage output? In even clearer terms....amarr assault gets to don 700hp of armor with damage mods on a weapon that has a 20% damage bonus to shields. Caldari assault would have a bit over 500 shields if we sacrifice two highs for damage mods. In order to compensate, you see cal assaults with armor plates. Armor tanking on a cal assault defeats the purpose of shield tanking. One plate may be ok but I see 400 hp of armor on cal assaults regularly. Does everyone disagree with this being the big issue or do people agree that the focus needs to lie here? Got to agree. The basic shield mechanic feels fine. The Getting melted by Scramblers and CRs really does feel like the issue. There is a reason the kill feed if full of three guns, Carthium/Viziam/Boundless. They are the current OP selection. You would think with all the armor that RRs would be on top of the world. The issue is that those three are so OP for the moment that they get ran over dedicated Armor shredders. I would like to see the threshold increased, but otherwise the regen seems fine. In truth, all I have seen from the options presented so far are basically ways to make the Min suit even more broken. PG/CPU costs are out of line and armor tanking is much more beneficial because you get damage and HPs. Plus with a scrambler you get range. I find myself running a lot more Am suits these days because of it. If I run my cal it just gets melted faster than I can step back into a doorway. The regen does not matter if you are dead in 0.5 seconds. It only matters if you can actually survive an encounter, and right not the armor tankers have time to turn around and melt you before you can even kill them from behind. You take almost a full clip of ARR to kill an Am Assault. They take less than 20% of a clip to do the same to a Cal assault. That's the issue. Not regen rates. I want to survive the first fight. Then I can worry about hiding to regen.

Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.09.23 17:32:00 - [111] - Quote I agree with Aeon. The fact that shield stats are all over the place needs correcting. Look at the Amarr sentinel: it has a better depleted recharge delay than the Minmatar sentinel, a dedicated shield suit. And it has better delays than the Gallente Assault. Why? It really looks like numbers were just drawn out of a hat when it comes to recharge delays and recharge rate. Aeon's proposal smooths that all out into something logical that we can build on. Just like Rattati did with the speed/ehp scale. Remember all the crying about that? Remember how unfounded it all was? Same thing here. This gives us a logical progression with which we can redo modules and we can more easily predict how they will function on various suits. When a shield regulator is of more benefit on an Amarr Sentinel then a Minmatar Sentinel, there is a huge problem. Seriously, someone show me how the proposal is going to make any armor suit better at shield tanking than an equivalent shield suit. Put your money where your mouth is: I want to see numbers. Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.23 18:29:00 - [112] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I agree with Aeon. The fact that shield stats are all over the place needs correcting. Look at the Amarr sentinel: it has a better depleted recharge delay than the Minmatar sentinel, a dedicated shield suit. And it has better delays than the Gallente Assault. Why? It really looks like numbers were just drawn out of a hat when it comes to recharge delays and recharge rate. Aeon's proposal smooths that all out into something logical that we can build on. Just like Rattati did with the speed/ehp scale. Remember all the crying about that? Remember how unfounded it all was? Same thing here. This gives us a logical progression with which we can redo modules and we can more easily predict how they will function on various suits. When a shield regulator is of more benefit on an Amarr Sentinel then a Minmatar Sentinel, there is a huge problem. Seriously, someone show me how the proposal is going to make any armor suit better at shield tanking than an equivalent shield suit. Put your money where your mouth is: I want to see numbers. This is one thing that immediately annoyed me about the CPM shield proposal. It starts by saying there is no pattern or order to the current shield regen stats. This is not true, there is a clear pattern, just some weird anomalies. So the Amarr shield depleted delay being 1 second shorter than Minmatar doesn't make sense. I agree. That doesn't mean the whole system is random. The weird bits can be sorted out, but the whole current pattern doesn't necessarily need to be changed. About the speed/hp scale. Rattati changed this considerably based on community feedback. Yes, a lot of the feedback was unfounded panic. However, one thing that was argued well and voiced by a lot of the community was opposition to having assault suits nerfed onto the speed/hp scale. Consequently Rattati nerfed assault speed far less than originally proposed so that assaults alone sit above the speed/hp curve. A situation that most people are happy with, and finally demonstrates a specific attribute that assaults have over other suits. So community based feedback on stat relationships are not always unfounded. People aren't worried about armour suits shield tanking better than shield suits. They are worried about armour suits armour tanking on top of a reasonable shield tank, without even fitting any shield modules. It's not something I'm too concerned about myself. Though I am a little worried that we may see more dual tanking due to better shields on armour suits, and a diminished need for regulators on shield suits. Though I can't say for sure that will happen.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.23 18:36:00 - [113] - Quote BARAGAMOS wrote: Got to agree. The basic shield mechanic feels fine. The Getting melted by Scramblers and CRs really does feel like the issue. There is a reason the kill feed if full of three guns, Carthium/Viziam/Boundless. They are the current OP selection. You would think with all the armor that RRs would be on top of the world. The issue is that those three are so OP for the moment that they get ran over dedicated Armor shredders. I would like to see the threshold increased, but otherwise the regen seems fine. In truth, all I have seen from the options presented so far are basically ways to make the Min suit even more broken. PG/CPU costs are out of line and armor tanking is much more beneficial because you get damage and HPs. Plus with a scrambler you get range. I find myself running a lot more Am suits these days because of it. If I run my cal it just gets melted faster than I can step back into a doorway. The regen does not matter if you are dead in 0.5 seconds. It only matters if you can actually survive an encounter, and right not the armor tankers have time to turn around and melt you before you can even kill them from behind. You take almost a full clip of ARR to kill an Am Assault. They take less than 20% of a clip to do the same to a Cal assault. That's the issue. Not regen rates. I want to survive the first fight. Then I can worry about hiding to regen. Weapon damage profiles ARRs are seem to be the most used weapon by the top slayers. The ARR has the second most damage per mag after the AScR. Combat rifles OP? The fact that nobody seems to be able to agree which weapons are OP or not, let alone what damage profiles things have, suggests concerns about unbalanced weapons are best ignored until Rattati posts the latest kill/spawn or usage data.
BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 225	Posted - 2015.09.23 19:44:00 - [114] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: BARAGAMOS wrote: Got to agree. The basic shield mechanic feels fine. The Getting melted by Scramblers and CRs really does feel like the issue. There is a reason the kill feed if full of three guns, Carthium/Viziam/Boundless. They are the current OP selection. You would think with all the armor that RRs would be on top of the world. The issue is that those three are so OP for the moment that they get ran over dedicated Armor shredders. I would like to see the threshold increased, but otherwise the regen seems fine. In truth, all I have seen from the options presented so far are basically ways to make the Min suit even more broken. PG/CPU costs are out of line and armor tanking is much more beneficial because you get damage and HPs. Plus with a scrambler you get range. I find myself running a lot more Am suits these days because of it. If I run my cal it just gets melted faster than I can step back into a doorway. The regen does not matter if you are dead in 0.5 seconds. It only matters if you can actually survive an encounter, and right not the armor tankers have time to turn around and melt you before you can even kill them from behind. You take almost a full clip of ARR to kill an Am Assault. They take less than 20% of a clip to do the same to a Cal assault. That's the issue. Not regen rates. I want to survive the first fight. Then I can worry about hiding to regen. Weapon damage profiles ARRs are seem to be the most used weapon by the top slayers. The ARR has the second most damage per mag after the AScR. Combat rifles OP? The fact that nobody seems to be able to agree which weapons are OP or not, let alone what damage profiles things have, suggests concerns about unbalanced weapons are best ignored until Rattati posts the latest kill/spawn or usage data. Top slayers are slaying the armor tankers..so they use the ARR, but in truth I see more of them with Scramblers than ARR. The kill feed in any game I am in has 4x the scramblers than ARRs. As for which guns are OP, I agree it seems to be based on which suits you prefer. I will say that when I run my scramblers I can see the power level over my RRs. The ARR takes much more time to melt any suit. If they have a shield it is painfully slow. On the other hand if I catch an armor tanker in the open its GG for them. The issue is that I have to catch them in the open. The scrambler does more work in a charge shot and two trigger pulls than half the ARR's clip. They simply don't have time to hide when I use the Scramblers. The ARR is not even in a class with the charge shot of a Viziam or the sustained fire of a Carhium. As a player that has both maxed and uses both I will tell you the ARR is not half he gun the AScR is. It is good, but not by ant means broken, and in the current meta the ASCR is beasty as well. As for being OP, I'm not so sure it is. It's probably just the current metagame.
Vesta Opalus Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance 1	Posted - 2015.09.23 19:53:00 - [115] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: Does everyone disagree with this being the big issue or do people agree that the focus needs to lie here? I agree with you that regen is not the only issue causing shield suits to be weak, however it is a big issue for some suits (caldari commando in particular is very poor mainly due to the inherent weaknesses of the commando but also particularly for that suit, the shield regen is critically underpowered). Overall though the regen of shield suits themselves is not a big deal in the armor v. shield balance. Other problems that cause issues in the meta: Armor regen is actually far better than shield regen with team support (equipment is a huge spoiler here, and allows armor regen at rediculous rates even under fire). HP pools are generally higher and have lower fitting requirements compared to shield HP. Shield suits secondary tank (aka armor HP) regens incredibly slow without fitting some armor rep modules, this is not the case for shields on armor based suits, which get their shields back in ~20 seconds or so. You have to fit shield regen in low slots, which makes it harder to fit dampening, speed, cardiac, etc modules. You dont see this mirrored on the armor suit side, they never have trouble fitting myos, dmg mods, precision, etc. Shield energizer and recharger modules have absolutely bullshit CPU requirements. **** this crap. Tactical weapons are overpowered. Particularly the Scrambler rifle on Amarr Assault, but also the tactical AR on any suit. These weapons in addition to being overpowered in general, also have profile bonus to damaging shield HP, so they are disproportionately overpowered against shield suits. This means even my 700 shield HP Cal Sentinel can have his primary tank blown away in half a second, with enough shots before overheat to blast away the 500 or so armor HP left over before you can even turn around and react. Laser Rifle is kind of OP against shields as well, though this is not even remotely as bad as the tactical weapons, it can make long distance skirmishing, which shield suits are supposed to accel at, a complete non-starter. There might be more issues but I cant think of the rest at this point, enjoy! OH I remembered another one: CPU heavy fitting on shield suits results in inefficient suits because there are no PG heavy/CPU light modules to fit to fill out a fitting. So you end up downgrading modules you dont want to downgrade so you can fill out those last few slots. Meanwhile on armor suits you have PG nill modules like precision, dampeners, and some very PG light modules as well that can all be fitted once you get close to maxing your PG out. This results in a general fitting imbalance between shield and armor suits, and its particularly bad for low tier shield suits since they dont have large quantities of CPU to lessen the impact.
Kalante Schiffer Ancient Exiles. 1	Posted - 2015.09.23 19:53:00 - [116] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: BARAGAMOS wrote: Got to agree. The basic shield mechanic feels fine. The Getting melted by Scramblers and CRs really does feel like the issue. There is a reason the kill feed if full of three guns, Carthium/Viziam/Boundless. They are the current OP selection. You would think with all the armor that RRs would be on top of the world. The issue is that those three are so OP for the moment that they get ran over dedicated Armor shredders. I would like to see the threshold increased, but otherwise the regen seems fine. In truth, all I have seen from the options presented so far are basically ways to make the Min suit even more broken. PG/CPU costs are out of line and armor tanking is much more beneficial because you get damage and HPs. Plus with a scrambler you get range. I find myself running a lot more Am suits these days because of it. If I run my cal it just gets melted faster than I can step back into a doorway. The regen does not matter if you are dead in 0.5 seconds. It only matters if you can actually survive an encounter, and right not the armor tankers have time to turn around and melt you before you can even kill them from behind. You take almost a full clip of ARR to kill an Am Assault. They take less than 20% of a clip to do the same to a Cal assault. That's the issue. Not regen rates. I want to survive the first fight. Then I can worry about hiding to regen. Weapon damage profiles ARRs are seem to be the most used weapon by the top slayers. The ARR has the second most damage per mag after the AScR. Combat rifles OP? The fact that nobody seems to be able to agree which weapons are OP or not, let alone what damage profiles things have, suggests concerns about unbalanced weapons are best ignored until Rattati posts the latest kill/spawn or usage data. Iv'e always used the ARR because it gets the job done at long, medium, and close range compared to the other rifles that are "supposed to be superior" to one another at different ranges. A slayer will run the things that are able to do everything with out giving a hindrace to different play styles. To me all rifles should have long ranges. If you want to be a close quarters guy get yourself a shotgun or a submachine gun. That is how all FPS have always been. Since this game has to follow a certain lore that is incompatible with FPS gameplay we can not advance anywhere. K+öL.2013.ae.SEP. Slayer of baby snakes.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.23 20:09:00 - [117] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: Iv'e always used the ARR because it gets the job done at long, medium, and close range compared to the other rifles that are "supposed to be superior" to one another at different ranges. A slayer will run the things that are able to do everything with out giving a hindrace to different play styles. To me all rifles should have long ranges. If you want to be a close quarters guy get yourself a shotgun or a submachine gun. That is how all FPS have always been. Since this game has to follow a certain lore that is incompatible with FPS gameplay we can not advance anywhere. The ARR's clearly a good weapon. So are the scramblers. The AScr is probably a bit OP. I really don't think rifle balance is much of an issue at the moment. And the AR does actually have quite good range. Just not compared to the other rifles. It's much longer than a shotgun or even an SMG.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.09.23 21:43:00 - [118] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: People aren't worried about armour suits shield tanking better than shield suits. They are worried about armour suits armour tanking on top of a reasonable shield tank, without even fitting any shield modules. It's not something I'm too concerned about myself. Though I am a little worried that we may see more dual tanking due to better shields on armour suits, and a diminished need for regulators on shield suits. Though I can't say for sure that will happen. What bothers me, and has always bothered me about HP mods, is that they are set on opposite sides of the Slot layout. To my mind, they should have been on the same side. This would have lead to more of a sacrifice in terms of what kind of role you wanted to play. If you wanted to dual tank, you couldn't significantly do so. I think this should have been a design consideration from the get go for all related modules as well, like Precision and Profile as well, but primarily with regard to HP modules. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.09.23 22:40:00 - [119] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: People aren't worried about armour suits shield tanking better than shield suits. They are worried about armour suits armour tanking on top of a reasonable shield tank, without even fitting any shield modules. It's not something I'm too concerned about myself. Though I am a little worried that we may see more dual tanking due to better shields on armour suits, and a diminished need for regulators on shield suits. Though I can't say for sure that will happen. What bothers me, and has always bothered me about HP mods, is that they are set on opposite sides of the Slot layout. To my mind, they should have been on the same side. This would have lead to more of a sacrifice in terms of what kind of role you wanted to play. If you wanted to dual tank, you couldn't significantly do so. I think this should have been a design consideration from the get go for all related modules as well, like Precision and Profile as well, but primarily with regard to HP modules. I completely agree with this. If we could rewrite the whole system, I'd definitely want all tank and damage modules on the same side. It would even make sense to put them all in the high slots. I'm mean, they are referred to as "high powered" and "low powered" slots (I believe). Surely it makes sense that tank and damage mods use high levels of power. You could even make it so that the high slot modules all take up a lot of PG. These are all the sorts of things that help the new player experience by making suit fitting more intuitive. There would be no need for racial slots layouts either. And you could do stuff like emphasise roles by giving assaults more highs than lows, and scouts and logis more lows than highs, for example. Stuff to consider for the next iteration of the game perhaps. Probably too much of a rewrite for Dust on PS3.
Genral69 death RAT PATROL INC. 745	Posted - 2015.09.23 22:42:00 - [120] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: [img]http://i.imgur.com/wIXicea.png[/img] This would be true if flux w worked all the time , half the time they hit the target and only tale a very small amount of there shield off https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=213777&find=unread

P14GU3 WarRavens 1	Posted - 2015.09.23 23:00:00 - [121] - Quote Im ok with damage mods for low slots when armor reps become high slots. Caldari can use both high and low slots for tank, while armor users only get damage mods or precision mods for high slots. I have an all caldari alt. He is specced into all caldari suits besides the assault iirc. Using hit and run tactics (the way cal are supposed to be played,) I rarely have issues taking on equally skilled opponents 1v1. The issue with caldari is people want to stand and deliver like its an amarr suit. They see that their RR can obliterate anything from 10-100 meters and figure that they are good within those ranges. When the truth is, cal shouldn't be within 50 meters of any enemy, and should use their speed to their advantage. 'Sault AK.0 - Logi AK.0 - Logi GK.0 - Scout GK.0 - 'Mando MK.0 - Sentinal MK.0 - Masshole in every sense of the word.
Vesta Opalus Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance 1	Posted - 2015.09.23 23:09:00 - [122] - Quote Genral69 death wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: [img]http://i.imgur.com/wIXicea.png[/img] This would be true if flux w worked all the time , half the time they hit the target and only tale a very small amount of there shield off Fluxes are far, far, far more consistent than core grenades in terms of applying their damage.
Vesta Opalus Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance 1	Posted - 2015.09.23 23:16:00 - [123] - Quote P14GU3 wrote: Im ok with damage mods for low slots when armor reps become high slots. Caldari can use both high and low slots for tank, while armor users only get damage mods or precision mods for high slots. You say this like its a good thing, but the reality is they HAVE to use their low slots for reasonable shield regen times, this means they dont get to use damps/kincats/cardiacs/etc like armor suits get to use precision/dmg mods/etc. Unless the dropsuit is specifically built to not require low slots for regen (like the cal sentinel/cal scout), you will end up being forced to burn low slots to get regen delays that are mediocre anyway. P14GU3 wrote: I have an all caldari alt. He is specced into all caldari suits besides the assault iirc. Using hit and run tactics (the way cal are supposed to be played,) I rarely have issues taking on equally skilled opponents 1v1. Min suits are way better at hit and run tactics, and amarr/gal are better at long distance skirmishing. P14GU3 wrote: The issue with caldari is people want to stand and deliver like its an amarr suit. They see that their RR can obliterate anything from 10-100 meters and figure that they are good within those ranges. When the truth is, cal shouldn't be within 50 meters of any enemy, and should use their speed to their advantage. This is not at all the issue with caldari suits, the issue with caldari suits is that their theoretical place in the design of this game completely and utterly breaks down to the reality: that amarr laser weapons with armor tank/regen dominate medium-long range combat, heavies with logi support dominate point defense, and that minmatar suits dominate speedy ambush play. There is no room for Caldari to do anything as the game is set up today.
BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 225	Posted - 2015.09.23 23:38:00 - [124] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: P14GU3 wrote: Im ok with damage mods for low slots when armor reps become high slots. Caldari can use both high and low slots for tank, while armor users only get damage mods or precision mods for high slots. You say this like its a good thing, but the reality is they HAVE to use their low slots for reasonable shield regen times, this means they dont get to use damps/kincats/cardiacs/etc like armor suits get to use precision/dmg mods/etc. Unless the dropsuit is specifically built to not require low slots for regen (like the cal sentinel/cal scout), you will end up being forced to burn low slots to get regen delays that are mediocre anyway. P14GU3 wrote: I have an all caldari alt. He is specced into all caldari suits besides the assault iirc. Using hit and run tactics (the way cal are supposed to be played,) I rarely have issues taking on equally skilled opponents 1v1. Min suits are way better at hit and run tactics, and amarr/gal are better at long distance skirmishing. P14GU3 wrote: The issue with caldari is people want to stand and deliver like its an amarr suit. They see that their RR can obliterate anything from 10-100 meters and figure that they are good within those ranges. When the truth is, cal shouldn't be within 50 meters of any enemy, and should use their speed to their advantage. This is not at all the issue with caldari suits, the issue with caldari suits is that their theoretical place in the design of this game completely and utterly breaks down to the reality: that amarr laser weapons with armor tank/regen dominate medium-long range combat, heavies with logi support dominate point defense, and that minmatar suits dominate speedy ambush play. There is no room for Caldari to do anything as the game is set up today. Agreed. Cal assault just feels weak against any of my other suits. It has no real place to excel.
P14GU3 WarRavens 1	Posted - 2015.09.24 00:46:00 - [125] - Quote I didnt say that caldari do not need some tweaks Vesta. While true that the min are better at skirmishing, in no way are the amarr/gal better at long range. The only weapon gal have that has an optimal over 40m is the TAR, and the RR and Sniper are far superior to the ScR/laser at long range in general. Only caldari complain about the Laser/Scr because their tank is reliant completely on shields, when no other race is, and lasers have an insane damage profile against them. As far as regen, you named 2 of the 5 classes of cal that do NOT have issues with regen. The assaults and possibly logis could use a buff to depleted regen. The commando is fine as it is IMO, they are meant to be glass cannons. 'Sault AK.0 - Logi AK.0 - Logi GK.0 - Scout GK.0 - 'Mando MK.0 - Sentinal MK.0 - Masshole in every sense of the word.
Vesta Opalus Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance 1	Posted - 2015.09.24 01:52:00 - [126] - Quote P14GU3 wrote: The only weapon gal have that has an optimal over 40m is the TAR, and the RR and Sniper are far superior to the ScR/laser at long range in general. This is just laughable. The rail rifle only achieves better damage output over the scrambler at such extreme ranges that it can no longer do any damage at all. Not to mention the absurd handling of the weapon and the charge up makes it poor in general, and its trash in CQC. Comparing it to the scrambler, you get similar range with both rifles, but with the rail rifle you get far less damage, worse handling, worse CQC performance, and a front loaded delay before any DPS can be applied at all contrasting heavily with the option to charge the scrambler which frontloads the DPS output. Scramblers are way better than the rail rifle. It isnt even a contest. Add to that the laser rifle which outranges everything but the sniper rifle (which is an absolute joke in this game due to its mechanics and damage output), and you get Amarr absolutely dominating long range combat. P14GU3 wrote: Only caldari complain about the Laser/Scr because their tank is reliant completely on shields, when no other race is, and lasers have an insane damage profile against them. I have Amarr sentinel/assault/logi, Minmatar assault/logi/sentinel/scout/commando, Caldari scout/commando/sentinel, Gallente assault/scout, which race am I? Do you think I have some racial agenda in this video game or do you think my opinion is that the scrambler is genuinely overpowered? I want all the stuff to be balanced so that I can use it all without feeling like Im a stumbling gimp (caldari assault/commando oh boy!) or stupendously overpowered (amarr assault with scrambler rifle, god mode isnt fun, I dont even know why people spawn in with this ***** fit). P14GU3 wrote: As far as regen, you named 2 of the 5 classes of cal that do NOT have issues with regen. The assaults and possibly logis could use a buff to depleted regen. The commando is fine as it is IMO, they are meant to be glass cannons. Scout and Sentinel are fine, assaults and logis need something, I agree there, but the caldari commando is absolute **, and is easily the worst suit in the game.
maybe deadcatz Horizons' Edge No Context 851	Posted - 2015.09.24 01:58:00 - [127] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: [img]http://i.imgur.com/wIXicea.png[/img] Glad to see the devs "working" so much on the current issue Dust 514:Plasma is magic.
CallMeNoName PIXXXIE 88	Posted - 2015.09.24 02:54:00 - [128] - Quote This all just seems "pls ccp mak my long rang dropsut as gud as short rang". Core Nades can't melt Amarr Sentinels.
VAHZZ RabbitGang 9	Posted - 2015.09.24 03:41:00 - [129] - Quote The recharge delay needs to be buffed. The strength needs to be buffed. Shield too weak. Must strong. Buy Hylian Shield. 999 Rupees. Co-Founder of RabbitGang "VAHZZ is Forum Jesus" - GJR But Jesus lives down the street...
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 11	Posted - 2015.09.24 04:28:00 - [130] - Quote CallMeNoName wrote: This all just seems "pls ccp mak my long rang dropsut as gud as short rang". It should be just as good. At medium ranges where they overlap. At long ranges the long range suit should be better. At short range it ahould be worse. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy No Context 4	Posted - 2015.09.24 05:41:00 - [131] - Quote P14GU3 wrote: I didnt say that caldari do not need some tweaks Vesta. While true that the min are better at skirmishing, in no way are the amarr/gal better at long range. The only weapon gal have that has an optimal over 40m is the TAR, and the RR and Sniper are far superior to the ScR/laser at long range in general. Only caldari complain about the Laser/Scr because their tank is reliant completely on shields, when no other race is, and lasers have an insane damage profile against them. As far as regen, you named 2 of the 5 classes of cal that do NOT have issues with regen. The assaults and possibly logis could use a buff to depleted regen. The commando is fine as it is IMO, they are meant to be glass cannons. Glass cannons... That implies that they can achieve rediculous amounts of damage. Sure they can, but an armor suit can do comparably and not be glass. How about making it not glass, the suit is absolute garbage if you try using it as a commando. What is it, a 6 or 7 sec delay with a measly 20-30 hp/sec? Wut? I am the Anti-FoTM Fear my Cal Assault and Amarr Scout!
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries 4	Posted - 2015.09.24 17:01:00 - [132] - Quote P14GU3 wrote: Im ok with damage mods for low slots when armor reps become high slots. Caldari can use both high and low slots for tank, while armor users only get damage mods or precision mods for high slots. I have an all caldari alt. He is specced into all caldari suits besides the assault iirc. Using hit and run tactics (the way cal are supposed to be played,) I rarely have issues taking on equally skilled opponents 1v1. The issue with caldari is people want to stand and deliver like its an amarr suit. They see that their RR can obliterate anything from 10-100 meters and figure that they are good within those ranges. When the truth is, cal shouldn't be within 50 meters of any enemy, and should use their speed to their advantage. Obvious bias here lol. He said that caldari can use both slots for tank and armor uses only have damage mods for high slots. If that isn't the one of the most ridiculous statements ever......as if shield extenders are prohibited to armor users. Don't forget that armor users have more pg and are better able to fit shield extenders into their fits as well. You have a caldari alt....lulz...I'm specced into all assaults and their weapons and armor is much more damaging than caldari suits. "Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit" Check RND out here
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries 4	Posted - 2015.09.24 17:06:00 - [133] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: BARAGAMOS wrote: Got to agree. The basic shield mechanic feels fine. The Getting melted by Scramblers and CRs really does feel like the issue. There is a reason the kill feed if full of three guns, Carthium/Viziam/Boundless. They are the current OP selection. You would think with all the armor that RRs would be on top of the world. The issue is that those three are so OP for the moment that they get ran over dedicated Armor shredders. I would like to see the threshold increased, but otherwise the regen seems fine. In truth, all I have seen from the options presented so far are basically ways to make the Min suit even more broken. PG/CPU costs are out of line and armor tanking is much more beneficial because you get damage and HPs. Plus with a scrambler you get range. I find myself running a lot more Am suits these days because of it. If I run my cal it just gets melted faster than I can step back into a doorway. The regen does not matter if you are dead in 0.5 seconds. It only matters if you can actually survive an encounter, and right not the armor tankers have time to turn around and melt you before you can even kill them from behind. You take almost a full clip of ARR to kill an Am Assault. They take less than 20% of a clip to do the same to a Cal assault. That's the issue. Not regen rates. I want to survive the first fight. Then I can worry about hiding to regen. Weapon damage profiles ARRs are seem to be the most used weapon by the top slayers. The ARR has the second most damage per mag after the AScR. Combat rifles OP? The fact that nobody seems to be able to agree which weapons are OP or not, let alone what damage profiles things have, suggests concerns about unbalanced weapons are best ignored until Rattati posts the latest kill/spawn or usage data. Reason why you see a lot of ARR is because most people are using armor suits because they know that armor tanking is better and shield tanking is not viable. Because the moment you don a shield tanking suit, you will get melted because the counter is just too effective. "Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit" Check RND out here
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries 4	Posted - 2015.09.24 17:09:00 - [134] - Quote Arirana wrote: Shield tankers shouldn't have a depleted recharge delay, just a recharge delay. This encourages shield tanking on shield tank suits, while the armor tankers are left with the increased depleted recharge delay penalty for trying to dual tank. This will help shield suits at least recover from getting fluxed faster. CPU/PG:HP ratio for shield extenders and ferroscale plates need to be balanced. Currently ferroscales offer more HP, for less CPU/PG cost and no penalty. Not good. Damage mods should become both a high slot module and a low slot module. Reasoning is balance, this is the forums logic is irrelevant. All HP modules, damage mods, kin cats, and code breakers (essentially most of the really useful modules) are PG heavy, the armor suits have much more PG than the shield suits. This combined with OP armor modules and dmg mods in highs give armor tankers too much of a fitting advantage. Either do something about the modules themselves, or the PG on shield suits. This man gets it "Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit" Check RND out here
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries 4	Posted - 2015.09.24 17:11:00 - [135] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Ydubbs81 RND wrote: I don't think that you get it still.....I am saying that Caldari suits can not compete with the damage output of the armor suits. I don't necessarily need a nerf to armor. By allowing the damage mods to be in either the low or high slots will allow shield suits to compete. We can restrict it to so that you can only put damage mods in either the high OR the low slots in one fit and not both. I'm not saying that that will solve all of the problems but it would be a major step. I'm not discussing damage mods in a shield mods thread. When would you discuss it...in a damage mod thread? There is no reason to make any changes on the damage mods. Not to mention, that the damage mod placement or lack thereof is a direct issue with shield tanking. "Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit" Check RND out here


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I am the Anti-FoTM

I am the Anti-FoTM