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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
4
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Posted - 2015.09.22 05:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
Everytime I post in one of those CPM threads about shields before it gets locked...my point gets glossed over. Does anyone else agree that shield regen/recharge is not the problem with the shield tanking?
Shield tanking is not viable cause you are melted by the double & triple damage modded amarr and gallente suits. Not to mention throwing flux grenades are like nukes to shield tankers and they are easier to use than a locus grenade.
I'm not familiar with all of the CPM's style of play or preferences but I do know one has been a longtime advocate for armor and has expressed many times that he felt that shields are in a great place (before he became CPM). Now, in Aeon's threads, everyone is agrees on what the problem with shield tanking is? I don't undersand at all.
It is a simple thing to understand. Armor suit maintain their primary tank and can stack double or triple damage mods on ARs or laser based weapons (20% damage bonus to shields). How can a shield tanker compete with the damage output if we have to sacrifice our primary tank to keep up with their damage output?
In even clearer terms....amarr assault gets to don 700hp of armor with damage mods on a weapon that has a 20% damage bonus to shields. Caldari assault would have a bit over 500 shields if we sacrifice two highs for damage mods. In order to compensate, you see cal assaults with armor plates. Armor tanking on a cal assault defeats the purpose of shield tanking. One plate may be ok but I see 400 hp of armor on cal assaults regularly.
Does everyone disagree with this being the big issue or do people agree that the focus needs to lie here?
"Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit"
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
4
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Posted - 2015.09.22 16:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:the shield stuff is multi-stage.
Stage 1 is straightening out recharge delays.
1A: This has a massive effect not only on survivability, but on fitting choices. Common wisdom is that a proper shield tank on an assault (if you don't want to just give in and put ferroscales on) is three regulators in the lows. That means a calassault has to devote eight slots to their tank versus a gal/amarr assault's four. One of the lows on a gal/am assault is usually reserved for biotics, sometimes two but usually two ferros or plates and one or two reps. By making regulators less mandatory for a good shield fit rather than absolutely critical it improves the calassault (and to a lesser degree, shield tanked minmatar suits) by a good deal. Suddenly damps, biotics and other modules become an option.
Stage 2 is adjusting modules so they aren't ass.
Stage 3 is making fun of me and my ideas. Seriously, I actually have a sense of humor. I can take it as good as I dish.
Stage 4 is comparing usage and, more importantly Kill per spawn metrics with armor to see if we're on the right track.
Lastly, if we find that we cannot stabilize Shields in a similar Kill/spawn range as the Armor mods, THEN we look at toning down armor.
There is no one on the CPM who is delusional enough to believe that this is the magic bullet that will save all. I push it because lowering shield delays means that fitting options are less automatically dictated for shield suit players if they don't want to have to fit armor for viability.
I don't think that you get it still.....I am saying that Caldari suits can not compete with the damage output of the armor suits. I don't necessarily need a nerf to armor. By allowing the damage mods to be in either the low or high slots will allow shield suits to compete. We can restrict it to so that you can only put damage mods in either the high OR the low slots in one fit and not both. I'm not saying that that will solve all of the problems but it would be a major step.
"Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit"
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
4
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Posted - 2015.09.22 17:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Everytime I post in one of those CPM threads about shields before it gets locked...my point gets glossed over. Does anyone else agree that shield regen/recharge is not the problem with the shield tanking?
Shield tanking is not viable cause you are melted by the double & triple damage modded amarr and gallente suits. Not to mention throwing flux grenades are like nukes to shield tankers and they are easier to use than a locus grenade.
I'm not familiar with all of the CPM's style of play or preferences but I do know one has been a longtime advocate for armor and has expressed many times that he felt that shields are in a great place (before he became CPM). Now, in Aeon's threads, everyone is agrees on what the problem with shield tanking is? I don't undersand at all.
It is a simple thing to understand. Armor suit maintain their primary tank and can stack double or triple damage mods on ARs or laser based weapons (20% damage bonus to shields). How can a shield tanker compete with the damage output if we have to sacrifice our primary tank to keep up with their damage output?
In even clearer terms....amarr assault gets to don 700hp of armor with damage mods on a weapon that has a 20% damage bonus to shields. Caldari assault would have a bit over 500 shields if we sacrifice two highs for damage mods. In order to compensate, you see cal assaults with armor plates. Armor tanking on a cal assault defeats the purpose of shield tanking. One plate may be ok but I see 400 hp of armor on cal assaults regularly.
Does everyone disagree with this being the big issue or do people agree that the focus needs to lie here? I think every CPM is pretty unanimous that we generally hate damage mods existing and if we had our way they'd probably go the way of the Dodo. Mostly because of situations exactly like you pointed out, which leaves us with one of two options: Either we move to introduce damage mods in the lows to boost shield usage in some six degrees of separation way, or we move for the removal or discouraged use of damage mods in the highs. It's sort of a pickle, for certain, and I don't think we have a solution. What we are working on though is a multi-step shield proposal (you've seen step one, of which there are about four) because it is something we can advocate changing because it's been needing an overhaul anyway. Shields haven't seen much change since the early days of Uprising and the current system is chaotic and confusing. Which, we're all sort of hesitant to change armor, or damage mods, or basically anything until that system actually has some sort of planned and functional design. All we're asking for is some feedback and patience. Yes, we understand that the current meta is armor. Yes, we understand that many players feel that a quick solution would be to nerf armor. We're not interested in quick band-aid solutions though, we're interested in long-term benefits that we don't have to keep having these sort of conversations over and to do that we need a functional design that we can work off of. We want shields and armor to have their unique playstyles and it has always been a design philosophy in Dust 514 that armor was about high HP while shields were about high Regen. That is our baseline. Cross Atu wrote:
#1 is the base suit stats having a method that provides a solid foundation
#2 is tuning the mods (and hopefully adding a few options as well) to give shields more love and diversity
#3 is looking at possible comparative issues with weapons, such a profile bias, this is more of a side step.
#4 is looking at the raw stats of the armor mods.
Right....and I'm not asking for an armor nerf. We can remove damage mods altogether or we can allow damage mods to be able to fit in either the high OR low slot in any fit.
"Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit"
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
4
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Posted - 2015.09.22 17:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Jonny D Buelle wrote:The problem is shield regen and shield delay. Amarr and Gallente weapons are anti-shield weapons just like Caldari and Minmatar weapons are anti-armour.
Flux grenades are a problem and need to take a look at. Even a basic flux is powerful enough to wipe a Caldari Sent's shields. My proposal is to nerf its damage vs infantry but keep the damage against vechiles the same. I have no idea about numbers.
I also agree that shield tanking is not viable as to have semi-decent shields, you are stacking shield mods in your highs and have no place to put damage modifiers or mylolfibs. Why not either make a new slot for damage modifiers in the suit or make it so they can be fitted in either high slots or low slots. Mostly because of the impact it'd have on TTK. Just imagine a Minmatar Assault running damage mods in the lows and Myos in the highs.
He'd have to sacrifice his armor tank to do so making him easier to kill. Right now, we have myofibs and explosive weapons which is probably the most cheesy thing a player can do at this point. So, it is what it is.
"Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit"
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
4
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Posted - 2015.09.22 17:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Weapon profiles are a bit of a moot point, because whilst laser weapons do +20% to shields, explosives do +20% to armour. Also both combat rifles, and crucially HMGs, do +15% to armour.
So I don't think weapon profiles are the issue.
If we consider damage mods, yes armour suits can fit them without sacrificing tank. However, unlike armour suits, shield suits can improve their regen with regulators, without sacrificing tank.
Now, energisers are in an interesting place, as they compete with both extenders and damage mods, and regulators need to be used with them to gain full effect. That's a lot of sacrifice, and I believe that it should come with a high reward.
Also, the damage mod argument only really works in a world where you only fit tank and damage. There are other low slot modules that armour suits would have to sacrifice tank to fit.
I'm not saying shields and armour are balanced, I'm just saying it's not a problem with weapon profiles or damage mods.
since when does the CR and RR put out 15% bonus against armor? The last update I remember was to make both of them -10/+10 towards shield/armor.
And about your damage mod point.....most people do is fit tank and damage on those armor fits. When guys are running around with 700+hp armor and 190hp shields, you already know what they're running.
"Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit"
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
4
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Posted - 2015.09.22 17:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
WyrmHero1945 wrote:I agree with you.
Shield recharge and delay are fine. CalSent/Mando maybe should get 25 HP/s, but every else seems ok and I like that delay/recharge is dependent on suit size/role.
Damage mods on the lows would be the best solution, with stacking penalties applied if there are high slot mods already equipped.
That, or nerf the ScR. Which would then be like it used to, a kill assists machine. Need to be very careful in that nerf.
This guy gets it. CCP could rig it so that you can only use damage mod in the high OR low slot but not both.... Just in the same way you can't use two cloaks on one fit.
"Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit"
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
4
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Posted - 2015.09.22 17:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
Avallo Kantor wrote:One idea I mentioned in the original shield discussion (the one that got derailed) was the idea of only having one shield recharge delay stat, and having that number then be modulated by current shield hp to be different.
For example, assuming a 10 second recharge delay (large number to make easy math):
At 50% shield hp the recharge delay is 50% so only 5 seconds,
At 25% shield hp the recharge delay is 75% so 7.5 seconds.
(We could always have a different algorithm if this is too simple / bad)
The end result is that it better encourages shield users to make use of cover as they can have extremely low recharges if they can pop in and out of cover each time only requiring a fraction of their normal recharge delay.
Armor tanks however would almost never benefit from this as they would always incur their full recharge delay, even if the values are not significantly different from other races.
The other more dramatic (and probably stupid) idea I had was to make regen a function over time. Basically every suit would have a 1 second delay, and a regular shield delay. After the one second delay shields begin to regenerate at 1hp/sec with the regen rate increasing linearly until it reaches 100% of the suits regen value at it's normal shield recharge delay.
Using simple math again, assuming a 11 second recharge delay and 100 regen, then it would start out at 1 hp /sec at the one second mark, and increase by 10 hp / sec every second until it reached max (or full shield recharge). With damage restarting the delay (and regen rate) as per normal.
I can build a sui that gets about 2secs on the delay and about 50hp of recharge/sec on a Cal assault.......with a total ehp of 800hp. I don't see anything wrong with this. The delays and recharge are fine now if you use the mods. But none of that will help you if you get fluxed (which is much easier to use than a locus nade) or a scrambler takes out 75% of your tank in one sec.
"Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit"
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
4
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Posted - 2015.09.22 17:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
since when does the CR and RR put out 15% bonus against armor? The last update I remember was to make both of them -10/+10 towards shield/armor.
And about your damage mod point.....most people do is fit tank and damage on those armor fits. When guys are running around with 700+hp armor and 190hp shields, you already know what they're running.
Rail rifles are +10% to armour. Combat rifles, SMGs and HMGs are +15%. It's been like this for ages. These weapons absolutely destroy armour suits. And just because many people fit all armour and damage on their armour suits doesn't mean they haven't sacrificed anything to do so. Myofibs, Kincats, precision mods, profile dampeners, all good modules sacrificed for the armour + damage. Just because you can't fit shield extenders or damage mods in low slots doesn't mean they are useless. There's no reason you can't fit damage mods on a Caldari assault. The game should be balanced so this is competitive. And if you want to go for the pure tank + damage shield fit you should feel happy about the regulators fit in your low. Hence why I don't agree with reducing their value.
CRs were never 15% to armor. It used to be -5%/+10% to shield/armor respectively. They have since modified it so both CR and RR yields the same bonus.
I'm not saying that those other mods are not useful. They can be but when you are in a gunfight, nothing helps more than tank and damage. The other mods help especially with aiding with situational awareness, or escaping, flanking, etc. But when it's time to show down, a kincat can't help you to strafe faster. What good is a regulator when you are taking consistent damage on an objective?
And of course, I can use damage mods on a cal fit but I'll be sacrificing my primary tank as opposed to armor fits which gets to keep their primary tank. And at the same time, they get to deal max damage. I can use armor plates to compensate but that defeats the purpose of shield tanking. I might as well, just use an armor suit which is better for it.
"Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit"
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
4
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Posted - 2015.09.24 17:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
P14GU3 wrote:Im ok with damage mods for low slots when armor reps become high slots. Caldari can use both high and low slots for tank, while armor users only get damage mods or precision mods for high slots.
I have an all caldari alt. He is specced into all caldari suits besides the assault iirc. Using hit and run tactics (the way cal are supposed to be played,) I rarely have issues taking on equally skilled opponents 1v1.
The issue with caldari is people want to stand and deliver like its an amarr suit. They see that their RR can obliterate anything from 10-100 meters and figure that they are good within those ranges. When the truth is, cal shouldn't be within 50 meters of any enemy, and should use their speed to their advantage.
Obvious bias here lol.
He said that caldari can use both slots for tank and armor uses only have damage mods for high slots. If that isn't the one of the most ridiculous statements ever......as if shield extenders are prohibited to armor users. Don't forget that armor users have more pg and are better able to fit shield extenders into their fits as well.
You have a caldari alt....lulz...I'm specced into all assaults and their weapons and armor is much more damaging than caldari suits.
"Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit"
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
4
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Posted - 2015.09.24 17:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:BARAGAMOS wrote:
Got to agree. The basic shield mechanic feels fine. The Getting melted by Scramblers and CRs really does feel like the issue. There is a reason the kill feed if full of three guns, Carthium/Viziam/Boundless. They are the current OP selection. You would think with all the armor that RRs would be on top of the world. The issue is that those three are so OP for the moment that they get ran over dedicated Armor shredders. I would like to see the threshold increased, but otherwise the regen seems fine. In truth, all I have seen from the options presented so far are basically ways to make the Min suit even more broken. PG/CPU costs are out of line and armor tanking is much more beneficial because you get damage and HPs. Plus with a scrambler you get range. I find myself running a lot more Am suits these days because of it. If I run my cal it just gets melted faster than I can step back into a doorway. The regen does not matter if you are dead in 0.5 seconds. It only matters if you can actually survive an encounter, and right not the armor tankers have time to turn around and melt you before you can even kill them from behind. You take almost a full clip of ARR to kill an Am Assault. They take less than 20% of a clip to do the same to a Cal assault. That's the issue. Not regen rates. I want to survive the first fight. Then I can worry about hiding to regen.
Weapon damage profilesARRs are seem to be the most used weapon by the top slayers. The ARR has the second most damage per mag after the AScR. Combat rifles OP? The fact that nobody seems to be able to agree which weapons are OP or not, let alone what damage profiles things have, suggests concerns about unbalanced weapons are best ignored until Rattati posts the latest kill/spawn or usage data.
Reason why you see a lot of ARR is because most people are using armor suits because they know that armor tanking is better and shield tanking is not viable. Because the moment you don a shield tanking suit, you will get melted because the counter is just too effective.
"Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit"
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
4
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Posted - 2015.09.24 17:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
Arirana wrote:
- Shield tankers shouldn't have a depleted recharge delay, just a recharge delay. This encourages shield tanking on shield tank suits, while the armor tankers are left with the increased depleted recharge delay penalty for trying to dual tank. This will help shield suits at least recover from getting fluxed faster.
- CPU/PG:HP ratio for shield extenders and ferroscale plates need to be balanced. Currently ferroscales offer more HP, for less CPU/PG cost and no penalty. Not good.
- Damage mods should become both a high slot module and a low slot module. Reasoning is balance, this is the forums logic is irrelevant.
- All HP modules, damage mods, kin cats, and code breakers (essentially most of the really useful modules) are PG heavy, the armor suits have much more PG than the shield suits. This combined with OP armor modules and dmg mods in highs give armor tankers too much of a fitting advantage. Either do something about the modules themselves, or the PG on shield suits.
This man gets it
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
4
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Posted - 2015.09.24 17:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I don't think that you get it still.....I am saying that Caldari suits can not compete with the damage output of the armor suits. I don't necessarily need a nerf to armor. By allowing the damage mods to be in either the low or high slots will allow shield suits to compete. We can restrict it to so that you can only put damage mods in either the high OR the low slots in one fit and not both. I'm not saying that that will solve all of the problems but it would be a major step.
I'm not discussing damage mods in a shield mods thread.
When would you discuss it...in a damage mod thread? There is no reason to make any changes on the damage mods. Not to mention, that the damage mod placement or lack thereof is a direct issue with shield tanking.
"Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit"
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