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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1229
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Posted - 2014.12.30 14:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
Logi is a simpleton's role, yet it is capable of reaping the most WP and acquiring large payouts.
I have played logi with one hand on the controller while talking on the phone for the entire match and ranked #1 with virtually no effort whatsoever. Those who can't do, logi. How hard is it to drop a couple of hives and latch on to a heavy, occasionally picking him up?
Whereas, when I devote my concentration to tactical attack plans, and adaptive execution of those plans, it requires much more intense concentration, soldiering ability and knowhow and yet it is not rewarded very well with WP payout.
Why is the easy logi role rewarded so much WP (logis can easily top 7000 WP in a battle), while the more intense foot soldier role is rewarded so little (foot soldiers top out in about the 3500 WP range)?
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5765
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 14:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Logi is a simpleton's role I know someone who won't be getting repped or resupplied anytime soon.
My advice to you, playa...
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1229
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Posted - 2014.12.30 14:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Clone D wrote:Logi is a simpleton's role I know someone who won't be getting repped or resupplied anytime soon.
The formula is: Put hives down. Latch on. Pick up.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5767
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Posted - 2014.12.30 14:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Clone D wrote:The formula is: Put hives down. Latch on. Pick up. It's funny that you attribute this amazing tactical prowess to slayer roles, but attempt to simplify the logi role down to this nonsense.
Watch me do the same to slayers.
Shoot, +50 WP, reload, Shoot again, +50 WP, reload.
I'm not a logi, I slay, but I need my logis. They make me perform my job better and increase my survivability.
Logis, do ya real MVP.
My advice to you, playa...
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1229
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Posted - 2014.12.30 14:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Shoot, +50 WP, reload, Shoot again, +50 WP, reload.
That is my point
kill +50
needle +90 (almost twice as much, why?)
Logis get WP, for standing around holding R1.
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Fizzer XCIV
Heaven's Lost Property
Negative-Feedback
1870
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 14:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
As an Assault.
**** no. **** you.
Logis deserve every WP they get.
Calling logi a simpletons role is really hypocritical, too. They are the most though intensive role in the game.
Slayers are the simple roles. Run. Kill. Rinse. Repeat.
Logis are those ones that are always making sure everyone is topped off for HP, always asking their squadmates if they have ammo or not, reviving downed blues, and scanning the places that need to be scanned.
The role of Caldari suits is to whine on the forums.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5768
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Posted - 2014.12.30 14:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
Clone D wrote:That is my point
kill +50
needle +90 (almost twice as much, why?) Because by needling someone you are putting yourself at more risk? Because it saves the entire team a clone that would otherwise be lost.
Also, you are using proto equipment to earn that 90 WP. The standard only nets you 30 WP. The proto brings someone back at what, 80% armor? That's a nearly full recovered soldier ready to fight that would otherwise be wasting time respawning and running back to the battlefield.
My advice to you, playa...
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1229
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Posted - 2014.12.30 14:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Logis are a force-multiplier. One logi increases the effectiveness of a squad significantly. Their EWAR range/precision is useful, they hack faster than other suits innately, they can fit more equipment and have more bandwidth. One smart logi makes a 6 man squad seem like an 8 man squad.
I agree with this, but that doesn't mean to say that it is difficult or deserving of such high payouts.
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KING CHECKMATE
Opus Arcana
Covert Intervention
6629
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Posted - 2014.12.30 14:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
Clone D wrote:------------
IT pays the most WP because its what most people who play a FPS DONT want to do. Help others.
So the only way to make it viable is to get big WP for it.
Playing as : Calmando, Calscout & Calassault.
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1229
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Posted - 2014.12.30 14:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Also, you are using proto equipment to earn that 90 WP.
Wiyrkomi Nanite Injector 7050 ISK
Less than the cost of an ADV weapon, yet rewards nearly twice as much WP for a safe procedure. If a logi is taking fire, why would he perform the revive? Do it in a low risk setting so that the revived doesn't immediately get killed again, right?
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5768
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 14:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Clone D wrote:I agree with this, but that doesn't mean to say that it is difficult or deserving of such high payouts. The logi role isn't altogether the most fun role to play. If logis didn't receive a bump in WPs we would have half as many of them running around and I'm not okay with that.
Also, I disagree with the statement "isn't difficult". Maybe if you just drop uplinks around, actively avoid the fire fights, and occasionally top off a bluberries armor when you pass one, sure. But logis who are in the thick of the fight have to watch themselves. Their dropsuits are basically made of hamburger wrappers and hope. The fit decent equipment they have to sacrifice some eHP too.
My advice to you, playa...
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abdullah muzaffar
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
146
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Posted - 2014.12.30 14:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
...Do you even know how expensive logisuits are? Even my adv suit costs 95k, and thats cause i sacrifice hp, speed, and offense just to support my team. It is always the logi that gets shot down first, and the one to receive the least help. |
Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1229
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Posted - 2014.12.30 14:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
abdullah muzaffar wrote:...Do you even know how expensive logisuits are? Even my adv suit costs 95k, and thats cause i sacrifice hp, speed, and offense just to support my team. It is always the logi that gets shot down first, and the one to receive the least help.
Build a cheaper suit.
I can easily rank #1 with an 8460 ISK Triage fitting:
'Valor' Logistics M-1
'Dren' Assault Rifle
nanohive
KIN-012 Nanite Injector
BDR-2 Repair Tool
Militia Shield Extender Blueprint (x2)
Militia Armor Plates Blueprint (x2)
It will cost a little bit more without the BPO, but it is highly effective and cheap. I'm sure you could measure the diminishing returns of a proto suit over std/adv gear by performing a benefit/cost analysis.
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Twelve Guage
Death Firm.
359
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 14:44:00 -
[14] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Logi is a simpleton's role, yet it is capable of reaping the most WP and acquiring large payouts.
I have played logi with one hand on the controller while talking on the phone for the entire match and ranked #1 with virtually no effort whatsoever. Those who can't do, logi. How hard is it to drop a couple of hives and latch on to a heavy, occasionally picking him up?
Whereas, when I devote my concentration to tactical attack plans, and adaptive execution of those plans, it requires much more intense concentration, soldiering ability and knowhow and yet it is not rewarded very well with WP payout.
Why is the easy logi role rewarded so much WP (logis can easily top 7000 WP in a battle), while the more intense foot soldier role is rewarded so little (foot soldiers top out in about the 3500 WP range)?
After reading this I can only assume that you have never run a logi suit.
You would not be saying hafe the stuff your saying if you were. Not only are
logi suits expensive / easy to kill / one of the most Sp intensive classes,
they are also the most vulnerable suit in the game and is the only suit in the
game where you are locked into that roll if you really want to support your team
with things like uplink / nan hives. The risk that most logi take to support a team
isk wise is not worth it. You should be happy that people for whatever reason
are still running logi suit with all the negative that come with running the suit.
Sandwich maker LVL. 5
You've been like by Twelve Gauge = her grabbing your @$$.
CCP has castrated my like button
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5769
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 14:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Build a cheaper suit.
'Valor' Logistics M-1
'Dren' Assault Rifle
Nanohive
KIN-012 Nanite Injector
BDR-2 Repair Tool
Militia Shield Extender Blueprint (x2)
Militia Armor Plates Blueprint (x2)
It will cost a little bit more without the BPO, but it is highly effective and cheap. I'm sure you could measure the diminishing returns of a proto suit over std/adv gear by performing a benefit/cost analysis. If you are going to post a fitting, post one without BPOs. Assume we are not willing to spend AUR. Also, make it in protofits so we know it would have the required CPU/PG.
Also, two armor plates? You'll have eHP and move like a turtle on Valium. Logis are already slow to begin with. This fitting would get annihilated while attempting to rep anyone.
My advice to you, playa...
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1229
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 14:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
Twelve Guage wrote:Clone D wrote:Logi is a simpleton's role, yet it is capable of reaping the most WP and acquiring large payouts.
I have played logi with one hand on the controller while talking on the phone for the entire match and ranked #1 with virtually no effort whatsoever. Those who can't do, logi. How hard is it to drop a couple of hives and latch on to a heavy, occasionally picking him up?
Whereas, when I devote my concentration to tactical attack plans, and adaptive execution of those plans, it requires much more intense concentration, soldiering ability and knowhow and yet it is not rewarded very well with WP payout.
Why is the easy logi role rewarded so much WP (logis can easily top 7000 WP in a battle), while the more intense foot soldier role is rewarded so little (foot soldiers top out in about the 3500 WP range)? After reading this I can only assume that you have never run a logi suit. You would not be saying hafe the stuff your saying if you were. Not only are logi suits expensive / easy to kill / one of the most Sp intensive classes, they are also the most vulnerable suit in the game and is the only suit in the game where you are locked into that role if you really want to support your team with things like uplink / nan hives. The risk that most logi take to support a team isk wise is not worth it. You should be happy that people for whatever reason are still running logi suit with all the negative that come with running the suit.
I clearly stated in the OP that I have run logi before.
I probably don't go negative while running a logi because I have actual soldiering skills that allow me to last a bit longer than your average noob. An experienced logi gets mega WP by performing basic procedures.
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1229
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 14:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Clone D wrote:Build a cheaper suit.
'Valor' Logistics M-1
'Dren' Assault Rifle
Nanohive
KIN-012 Nanite Injector
BDR-2 Repair Tool
Militia Shield Extender Blueprint (x2)
Militia Armor Plates Blueprint (x2)
It will cost a little bit more without the BPO, but it is highly effective and cheap. I'm sure you could measure the diminishing returns of a proto suit over std/adv gear by performing a benefit/cost analysis. If you are going to post a fitting, post one without BPOs. Assume we are not willing to spend AUR. Also, make it in protofits so we know it would have the required CPU/PG. Also, two armor plates? You'll have eHP and move like a turtle on Valium. Logis are already slow to begin with. This fitting would get annihilated while attempting to rep anyone.
I have used that fitting to rank #1 on several occasions. Modify it as you see fit, but the point is that you can make an effective logi suit for less than 90k ISK.
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Jack McReady
DUST University
Ivy League
1678
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 14:54:00 -
[18] - Quote
I played minmatar logi quite long, this was my basic fit
Logistics mk.0
Complex Shield Extender
Complex Shield Extender
Complex Shield Extender
Complex Shield Extender
Basic Ferroscale Plates
Basic Ferroscale Plates
Basic Ferroscale Plates
Complex Armor Repairer
Six Kin Submachine Gun or Mag Sec
Core Locus Grenade
Ishukone Nanohive
Viziam Drop Uplink
Core Repair Tool
Wiyrkomi Nanite Injector
it has decent HP, is not the slowest and basically lets the team go on killing. weapon is rarely used because shooting means stopping repair it basically is for self defense in emergencies only. with the repair tool range bonus you can also keep out of harm most of the time. it is a WP printing machine, but extremely boring to play ... |
KING CHECKMATE
Opus Arcana
Covert Intervention
6630
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 14:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote: Their dropsuits are basically made of hamburger wrappers and hope..
XD They feel like that too 
Playing as : Calmando, Calscout & Calassault.
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Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
712
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 15:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
logis shouldnt be punished for doing their job. having a good logi is SP intensive cause only the top end equipment is actually worth using. A logi is supposed to keep the war machinery going with revives, reps, ammo, scans and spawns. Be greatfull that some 1 is actually using their brain instead of run and gunning like a headless chicken on roids.
Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!
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Jack McReady
DUST University
Ivy League
1678
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Posted - 2014.12.30 15:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
Bright Cloud wrote:logis shouldnt be punished for doing their job. having a good logi is SP intensive cause only the top end equipment is actually worth using. A logi is supposed to keep the war machinery going with revives, reps, ammo, scans and spawns. Be greatfull that some 1 is actually using their brain instead of run and gunning like a headless chicken on roids.
because assault and scouts cannot split equipment among the team, right? |
Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
5154
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 15:02:00 -
[22] - Quote
http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa355/ohhburn/GIF/tumblr_lcx7psXlYf1qdubemo1_500.gif this thread.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Twelve Guage
Death Firm.
359
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 15:03:00 -
[23] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Twelve Guage wrote:Clone D wrote:Logi is a simpleton's role, yet it is capable of reaping the most WP and acquiring large payouts.
I have played logi with one hand on the controller while talking on the phone for the entire match and ranked #1 with virtually no effort whatsoever. Those who can't do, logi. How hard is it to drop a couple of hives and latch on to a heavy, occasionally picking him up?
Whereas, when I devote my concentration to tactical attack plans, and adaptive execution of those plans, it requires much more intense concentration, soldiering ability and knowhow and yet it is not rewarded very well with WP payout.
Why is the easy logi role rewarded so much WP (logis can easily top 7000 WP in a battle), while the more intense foot soldier role is rewarded so little (foot soldiers top out in about the 3500 WP range)? After reading this I can only assume that you have never run a logi suit. You would not be saying hafe the stuff your saying if you were. Not only are logi suits expensive / easy to kill / one of the most Sp intensive classes, they are also the most vulnerable suit in the game and is the only suit in the game where you are locked into that role if you really want to support your team with things like uplink / nan hives. The risk that most logi take to support a team isk wise is not worth it. You should be happy that people for whatever reason are still running logi suit with all the negative that come with running the suit. I clearly stated in the OP that I have run logi before. I probably don't go negative while running a logi because I have actual soldiering skills that allow me to last a bit longer than your average noob. An experienced logi gets mega WP by performing basic procedures.
Alright so this is what i'm getting from this then. You just don't like it when your not at the
top of a list because someone out scored you and is now crying about it on the forums.
Op I have to ask what logi suit are you skilled into and what do you run on your suit.
Please don't point me to that crap of a suit that you just posted no real logi is getting many
points from that unless there already standing behind a heavy standing in a rep hive. FYI
if this is all your doing as a logi your not really supporting you team. I'm starting to think you
a dirty troll.
Sandwich maker LVL. 5
You've been like by Twelve Gauge = her grabbing your @$$.
CCP has castrated my like button
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axis alpha
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
450
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 15:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Logi is a simpleton's role, yet it is capable of reaping the most WP and acquiring large payouts.
I have played logi with one hand on the controller while talking on the phone for the entire match and ranked #1 with virtually no effort whatsoever. Those who can't do, logi. How hard is it to drop a couple of hives and latch on to a heavy, occasionally picking him up?
Whereas, when I devote my concentration to tactical attack plans, and adaptive execution of those plans, it requires much more intense concentration, soldiering ability and knowhow and yet it is not rewarded very well with WP payout.
Why is the easy logi role rewarded so much WP (logis can easily top 7000 WP in a battle), while the more intense foot soldier role is rewarded so little (foot soldiers top out in about the 3500 WP range)?
Why its rewarded with so many wp is because its the only way anyone is going to be a logi.
But logis are beggining to just be annoying as most of them compare how many wp they have and not kills or even wins....
They think just because they logi the entire game they THINK they helped... When in reality they could have done so much more.
I cut you up so bad.... You gonna wish I no cut you up so bad.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5772
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 15:07:00 -
[25] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:because assault and scouts cannot split equipment among the team, right? Assault and scout equipment will not get the logi dropsuit command bonuses. You can tell when you stand on a Caldari logi V triage nanohive.
My advice to you, playa...
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Ku Shala
The Generals
1091
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 15:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
k so how much does your slayer suit cost at basic? .... now your logi..... now compare the wp of those suits vs the cost and also factor that the logi is often the first target in the group and will score 1 on the leaderboard but have a negative kdr.
your needle only sores 90 at proto and it is costing that logi repair points
also you can fit that 90 point tool on your slayer suit (except heavy) and do more than die for your team
Id deploy a dingy so you dont drown in tears but all my equipment slots are full
-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (CK-0 Specialist)
Caldari Loyalist
Burst RR should fire like a charge sniper
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1229
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 15:08:00 -
[27] - Quote
Twelve Guage wrote: Alright so this is what i'm getting from this then. You just don't like it when your not at the
top of a list because someone out scored you and is now crying about it on the forums.
Op I have to ask what logi suit are you skilled into and what do you run on your suit.
Please don't point me to that crap of a suit that you just posted no real logi is getting many
points from that unless there already standing behind a heavy standing in a rep hive. FYI
if this is all your doing as a logi your not really supporting you team. I'm starting to think you
a dirty troll.
No, I never stated that I am not at the top of the list. I am not hurting in any aspect of the game. I am addressing this topic from a standpoint of having played all of the roles, and wondering how we justify sending naked ladies to deliver WP to logis on a silver platter for doing low intensity support jobs. They are the janitors of Dust.
LVL 2 Min Logistics Dropsuit
LVL 3 Nanocircuitry
LVL 3 Repair Tool Operation
LVL 5 Drop Uplink Deployment
LVL 3 Active Scanner
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5772
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 15:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
axis alpha wrote:But logis are beggining to just be annoying as most of them compare how many wp they have and not kills or even wins....
They think just because they logi the entire game they THINK they helped... When in reality they could have done so much more. Every role on a team has a "saturation point". Take snipers, for example. 1 - 2 per team, maximum. Anymore than that and you are wasting slots for other roles. Logis are the same way. A team with 5+ logis is going to lose; they aren't increasing the effectiveness of the slayers enough because there simply aren't enough slayers.
3 logis is, in my opinion, the sweet spot. Two squads on a team, one logi per squad plus 1 blueberry logi dropping the occasional hive and needling idiot blueberries so the team doesn't get cloned.
My advice to you, playa...
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Jack McReady
DUST University
Ivy League
1678
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 15:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:
3 logis is, in my opinion, the sweet spot. Two squads on a team, one logi per squad plus 1 blueberry logi dropping the occasional hive and needling idiot blueberries so the team doesn't get cloned.
1 logi per two heavies is the sweetspot 
assault can go lick themself and use nanos + self repairs  |
Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5772
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 15:17:00 -
[30] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:1 logi per two heavies is the sweetspot assault can go lick themself and use nanos + self repairs I run armor reppers on my all of my assault dropsuits  I just need the occasional hive for more ammo.
And yeah 1 logi:2 sentinels is alright if you are into sentinel spam But you do you Jack, you do you.
My advice to you, playa...
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Jack McReady
DUST University
Ivy League
1678
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 15:24:00 -
[31] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Jack McReady wrote:1 logi per two heavies is the sweetspot assault can go lick themself and use nanos + self repairs I run armor reppers on my all of my assault dropsuits I just need the occasional hive for more ammo. And yeah 1 logi:2 sentinels is alright if you are into sentinel spam But you do you Jack, you do you.
I wouldnt mind repairing assaults, they are just too fast running everywhere headlong. my poor logi cant keep up with its small legs but it is enough to run after some fatties. |
Henchmen21
Planet Express LLC
1132
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 15:27:00 -
[32] - Quote
You may not appreciate my spawns, ammo, reps and rez's but plenty of others do so I'll continue to to serve them up so my team has a better chance of winning.
/Faceplam
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1229
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 15:31:00 -
[33] - Quote
Henchmen21 wrote:You may not appreciate my spawns, ammo, reps and rez's but plenty of others do so I'll continue to to serve them up so my team has a better chance of winning.
I appreciate it. I even perform the role myself when needed. My question remains the same. Why are logis paid so many warpoints? The general consensus is that nobody wants to do the job so it requires more incentive.
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Twelve Guage
Death Firm.
359
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 15:39:00 -
[34] - Quote
Clone D wrote:
No, I never stated that I am not at the top of the list. I am not hurting in any aspect of the game. I am addressing this topic from a standpoint of having played all of the roles, and wondering how we justify sending naked ladies to deliver WP to logis on a silver platter for doing low intensity support jobs. They are the janitors of Dust.
LVL 2 Min Logistics Dropsuit
LVL 3 Nanocircuitry
LVL 3 Repair Tool Operation
LVL 5 Drop Uplink Deployment
LVL 3 Active Scanner
LVL 2 Amarr Logistics Dropsuit
"Looks at stuff op is skilled into eye twitch "
Op I think you don't like being locked into your
role and is now trying to fish out ways to make
other already powerful classes more powerful.
If you could still drop your proto up-links and
switch to an assault suit would this thread
even be relative?
Sandwich maker LVL. 5
You've been like by Twelve Gauge = her grabbing your @$$.
CCP has castrated my like button
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
6071
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 15:51:00 -
[35] - Quote
Once again Clone D's ability to present anecdote and opinion as undeniable fact is nothing short of amazing.
Well trolled sir. Well trolled.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1229
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 15:52:00 -
[36] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Once again Clone D's ability to present anecdote and opinion as undeniable fact is nothing short of amazing.
Well trolled sir. Well trolled.
War points are arbitrary. The game is what CCP makes it. I simply question their reasoning.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1229
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 15:55:00 -
[37] - Quote
Twelve Guage wrote:Clone D wrote:
No, I never stated that I am not at the top of the list. I am not hurting in any aspect of the game. I am addressing this topic from a standpoint of having played all of the roles, and wondering how we justify sending naked ladies to deliver WP to logis on a silver platter for doing low intensity support jobs. They are the janitors of Dust.
LVL 2 Min Logistics Dropsuit
LVL 3 Nanocircuitry
LVL 3 Repair Tool Operation
LVL 5 Drop Uplink Deployment
LVL 3 Active Scanner
LVL 2 Amarr Logistics Dropsuit
Looks at stuff op is skilled into "eye twitch " Op I think you don't like being locked into your role and is now trying to fish out ways to make other already powerful classes more powerful. If you could still drop all of your up-links and switch to an assault suit would this thread even be relative?
I just now participated in a match where I dropped proto uplinks and switched to a logi assault suit and protected an objective. Switching suits has not been stamped out.
I simply question the reasoning behind the game design.
If I can easily rank #1 with those skills meager, yet I have to put much more effort into getting a decent WP payout from actually beeing a shooter in an FPS, then there appears to be a problem to me.
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Dubya Guy
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
143
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 15:55:00 -
[38] - Quote
This is probably meant to be a provocative (read: troll) post, but I'll give a shot at contributing to a serious discussion.
I have some lengthy thoughts:
- Warpoints are only one measure of success. KDR and W/L ratio are two others that CCP has provided us as measures of worth/pride. The current post-game board is sorted by Warpoints. An argument could be made that they just had to pick one (WP or KDR) to simplify the interface. I'd like to see both or a toggle.
- The factor "Warpoints" unfortunately does double duty. On one hand it is supposed to represent a summary of a player's contribution to the battle, but on the other hand it is the ONLY way of seeing how much non-lethal assistance a player provides. I think it would be less controversial if triage, hive, uplink, etc points were totaled under a separate term like "Team Assist Points". Warpoints could be the combination of Team Assist Points and Kill/Damage related points. Then, I think it would be a cleaner debate about the formula for combining the two to get "Warpoints".
- It is regrettable that some think of this game as basically just a "shooter". It is (or can be) so much deeper and richer than that. I theorize that the weighting of points/unit effort towards repping/hives/uplinks is an attempt by CCP to encourage players to utilize the support roles so the game WILL be more multi-dimensional than just a simple shooter. I am a dedicated Logi. That's all I do. I seldom see another full-time Logi on my team of 16 except in PCs. I think it is an underutilized role as there is often more "business" for me than I can handle. Imagine how few full-time Logi's there would be if they didn't have the small incentive of getting high on the end-of-battle board despite all the lost suits and ridicule for having less than 0.5 battle KDR. Some might see a devolution to everyone being all-purpose soldiers as a good thing. I don't.
- Have you ever thought about the fact that when you kill someone, or get killed, it is publicly displayed for both teams to see, and when you die you get a whole splash screen of who killed you and what they were using, yet when you benefit from the work of a Logi, it is anonymous? Who dropped that link my whole squad used to save us a 20 second hike across open terrain? Who is keeping my armor from depleting while I'm standing here slaying all comers? When I was desperate for more ammo and stepped across that hive, who dropped it? I think the anonymity of a Logi's work leads to a lot of frustration by slayers who contributed mightily to a battle and are surprised  to find someone whose name they haven't seen all battle appear near the top of the board.
- I don't think it is easy to do what I do. I am certainly much better at it than I was three months ago, and much much better than when I first started. This demonstrates it is not a simple formula as you describe. I still die a lot, proving the job isn't "low intensity". I also see Logi's "fail" at their job, proving the role is not auto-win. Those that fail, inevitably start working on their weapon skills and pick up another role where they spend the majority of their time. The fields of Molden Heath are covered with Assaults, Scouts, Commandos, and Sentinals who initially dabbled with being a Logi, but didn't find it rewarding enough or something they could be really good at. Will your recent "success" at Logi-ing result in you assuming that role as your primary one moving forward? There is certainly room on the battlefield for more dedicated Logis.
FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
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Twelve Guage
Death Firm.
360
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Posted - 2014.12.30 16:06:00 -
[39] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Twelve Guage wrote:Clone D wrote:
No, I never stated that I am not at the top of the list. I am not hurting in any aspect of the game. I am addressing this topic from a standpoint of having played all of the roles, and wondering how we justify sending naked ladies to deliver WP to logis on a silver platter for doing low intensity support jobs. They are the janitors of Dust.
LVL 2 Min Logistics Dropsuit
LVL 3 Nanocircuitry
LVL 3 Repair Tool Operation
LVL 5 Drop Uplink Deployment
LVL 3 Active Scanner
LVL 2 Amarr Logistics Dropsuit
Looks at stuff op is skilled into "eye twitch " Op I think you don't like being locked into your role and is now trying to fish out ways to make other already powerful classes more powerful. If you could still drop all of your up-links and switch to an assault suit would this thread even be relative? I just now participated in a match where I dropped proto uplinks and switched to a logi assault suit and protected an objective. Switching suits has not been stamped out. I simply question the reasoning behind the game design. If I can easily rank #1 with those skills meager, yet I have to put much more effort into getting a decent WP payout from actually beeing a shooter in an FPS, then there appears to be a problem to me.
Your troll harder mentality is stating to wear me down.
So let me ask you this if logi should not be getting the
most war point then what should they be getting in
exchange for their work?
Sandwich maker LVL. 5
You've been like by Twelve Gauge = her grabbing your @$$.
CCP has castrated my like button
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taxi bastard
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
271
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 16:10:00 -
[40] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Logi is a simpleton's role, yet it is capable of reaping the most WP and acquiring large payouts.
I have played logi with one hand on the controller while talking on the phone for the entire match and ranked #1 with virtually no effort whatsoever. Those who can't do, logi. How hard is it to drop a couple of hives and latch on to a heavy, occasionally picking him up?
Whereas, when I devote my concentration to tactical attack plans, and adaptive execution of those plans, it requires much more intense concentration, soldiering ability and knowhow and yet it is not rewarded very well with WP payout.
Why is the easy logi role rewarded so much WP (logis can easily top 7000 WP in a battle), while the more intense foot soldier role is rewarded so little (foot soldiers top out in about the 3500 WP range)?
Funny thing I used my dren logi for 4 matches last night , haven't used it for ages.
Playing logi - does deserve more WP as there is not the k/d stats to recognise its contribution, and Isk wise it can get pretty costly. It's not as simplistic as you state and a slayer can use 25-33% of the equipment of the logi and their task is more rewarding.
Personally i don't enjoy the logi role but I can see why the reward is so |
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
2643
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Posted - 2014.12.30 16:20:00 -
[41] - Quote
Next you'll say you don't want pilots getting WP for anything at all.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
1834
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Posted - 2014.12.30 16:27:00 -
[42] - Quote
you really hate logis i see.
All Hail Legion
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1230
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 16:29:00 -
[43] - Quote
Twelve Guage wrote:if logi should not be getting the
most war point then what should they be getting in
exchange for their work?
Use statistics to determine a reasonable payout for war contributions. I don't see a problem with equal opportunity.
One way to do it could be to take the average WP per minute of a shooter and of a logi and then normalize them by adjusting WP payout for certain actions specific to each role. In other words, currently a really good logi would make 7000 WP and a really good shooter would make 3500 WP. After normalization, both really good players would earn 7000 WP.
Or we could simply perform a qualitative assessment (which is completely subjective, but that is what the WP system is based on anyway).
For instance, do uplinks really need to bestow +25 per spawn? A shooter, by shooting alone, must kill 50 opponents just to make 2500 WP. That takes a lot of work. A logi that drops about 5 uplinks can go sit in the redline for the rest of the match and make 2500 WP.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
6071
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 16:31:00 -
[44] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Once again Clone D's ability to present anecdote and opinion as undeniable fact is nothing short of amazing.
Well trolled sir. Well trolled. War points are arbitrary. The game is what CCP makes it. I simply question their reasoning.
that's because you aren't applying critical thinking to the question and only going with "Welp, I find this valueless..."
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5779
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 16:31:00 -
[45] - Quote
Clone D wrote:I just now participated in a match where I dropped proto uplinks and switched to a logi assault suit and protected an objective. Switching suits has not been stamped out. Switching suits wasn't the problem, homie, switching roles was. You changed from a logi to a logi. That's 100% acceptable. It's when people swapped from logi to HMG sentinel that we have issues.
Clone D wrote:If I can easily rank #1 with those skills meager, yet I have to put much more effort into getting a decent WP payout from actually being a shooter in an FPS, then there appears to be a problem to me. I can come within 15% of my logi's WP total by being a slayer in many cases. Just fight within 50m of the objective and use some equipment on your assault suit... I may not take #1 on the EoM screen but I'll get 2 or 3 easy enough. I sometimes surpass the logi if I drop a warbarge strike in the right spots
Also...
Clone D wrote:logi assault suit All of my lawls. All of them. My sides, oh how they hurt.
My advice to you, playa...
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1229
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 16:35:00 -
[46] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:that's because you aren't applying critical thinking to the question and only going with "Welp, I find this valueless..."
My friend, I am saying that maybe WP needs to be realigned. I don't find logis valueless at all. They are dear to my heart and I play the role as well when my team needs it. But what if a good shooter could also make 7000 WP by playing assault alone? That way, a logi who tries hard the whole match and a shooter that tries hard the whole match can be rewarded relatively equally. Payouts are a bit lopsided right now.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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Omega Black Zero
Condotta Rouvenor
Gallente Federation
130
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 16:39:00 -
[47] - Quote
Clone D wrote:abdullah muzaffar wrote:...Do you even know how expensive logisuits are? Even my adv suit costs 95k, and thats cause i sacrifice hp, speed, and offense just to support my team. It is always the logi that gets shot down first, and the one to receive the least help. Build a cheaper suit. I can easily rank #1 with an 8460 ISK Triage fitting: 'Valor' Logistics M-1 'Dren' Assault Rifle nanohive KIN-012 Nanite Injector BDR-2 Repair Tool Militia Shield Extender Blueprint (x2) Militia Armor Plates Blueprint (x2) It will cost a little bit more without the BPO, but it is highly effective and cheap. I'm sure you could measure the diminishing returns of a proto suit over std/adv gear by performing a benefit/cost analysis.
I can fit three complex reactive plates on my Sver Logi, so I run basic tools. I personally prefer to get the 30 wp and finish their HP with the repper, usually make 200+ more that way on average.
You also forget to include that we have a cap to our triage points, where slayers have no cap. Imagine the butt hurt if someone made five kills and their WP was capped for the next five kills.
For some reason, this feels like a troll post... |
Twelve Guage
Death Firm.
360
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 16:43:00 -
[48] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Twelve Guage wrote:if logi should not be getting the
most war point then what should they be getting in
exchange for their work?
Use statistics to determine a reasonable payout for war contributions. I don't see a problem with equal opportunity. One way to do it could be to take the average WP per minute of a shooter and of a logi and then normalize them by adjusting WP payout for certain actions specific to each role. In other words, currently a really good logi would make 7000 WP and a really good shooter would make 3500 WP. After normalization, both really good players would earn 7000 WP. Or we could simply perform a qualitative assessment (which is completely subjective, but that is what the WP system is based on anyway). For instance, do uplinks really need to bestow +25 per spawn? A shooter, by shooting alone, must kill 50 opponents just to make 2500 WP. That takes a lot of work. A logi that drops about 5 uplinks can go sit in the redline for the rest of the match and make 2500 WP.
Two thing
First most logi's do not regularly make 7k war points a match the (real number is something like 1k-1.8k a match)
so please stop throwing out bull-**** numbers like that .
Secondly if they do what you suggest then ccp should also raise the price of all suits
to match what logi's run. I believe in equal opportunity to so your suit should cost the
same as my's if not more your killers after all. Got to make everything equal.
And do forget to make sure ccp adds a cap to your wp after getting to many of them
after a certain amount of time. I wouldn't want you guys to feel left out are anything.
Sandwich maker LVL. 5
You've been like by Twelve Gauge = her grabbing your @$$.
CCP has castrated my like button
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1229
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Posted - 2014.12.30 16:52:00 -
[49] - Quote
Twelve Guage wrote:
Two thing
First most logi's do not regularly make 7k war points a match the (real number is something like 1k-1.8k a match)
so please stop throwing out bull-**** numbers like that .
Most shooters don't make 3500 WP per match either. The average is around 500-1000 WP, so logis still have them beat. I'm talking about the WP payout of a good logi vs a good shooter.
Twelve Guage wrote:Secondly if they do what you suggest then ccp should also raise the price of all suits
to match what logi's run. I believe in equal opportunity to so your suit should cost the
same as my's if not more your killers after all. Got to make everything equal.
Separate topic: IMO Free market values should determine the cost of goods in order to make a deeper game system. Realtime virtual factories should make X goods per production period and consumers (in game businesses or in game customers) should bid on goods, etc.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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Aiwha Bait
Demonic Cowboys
37
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Posted - 2014.12.30 16:53:00 -
[50] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Logi is a simpleton's role, yet it is capable of reaping the most WP and acquiring large payouts.
I have played logi with one hand on the controller while talking on the phone for the entire match and ranked #1 with virtually no effort whatsoever. Those who can't do, logi. How hard is it to drop a couple of hives and latch on to a heavy, occasionally picking him up?
Whereas, when I devote my concentration to tactical attack plans, and adaptive execution of those plans, it requires much more intense concentration, soldiering ability and knowhow and yet it is not rewarded very well with WP payout.
Why is the easy logi role rewarded so much WP (logis can easily top 7000 WP in a battle), while the more intense foot soldier role is rewarded so little (foot soldiers top out in about the 3500 WP range)?
I'd like to echo Ripley and say that I know somebody who wont be getting picked up, ammo, or reps. I hope you run heavy.
Us logis are the thing that keep d-bags like you alive, stocked up on ammo, picked up, and sometimes give you decent spots to spawn. Being a logi can be very difficult, let me remind you. You said you played logi. Remember when you weren't in squad and were repping a blueberry heavy that was f*cking clueless as to where the enemy was, and you were yelling "Hey, you dope, the enemies are over that way!" at the tv? He continued to walk around, you still repping him, and you kept losing him and the stream kept getting broken up because he cut corners and jumped down without warning, and yet you still repped him. How about when you repped the heavy (regardless of whether or not you were in squad), and while you repped him, you were trying to avoid being killed, because other heavies and infantry targeted the logis first? It's hard not to die in those cases, but somehow you and your heavy pulled through.
I can see you're butthurt because you arent doing as well as those of us who keep a**holes like you alive. Before you come on the forums and show all of us logis that you are indeed butthurt, take time to remember every single time a logi has done something for you and thank us.
Dont get mad, gets reps and shoot sh*t. :) Well, not you because you wont be getting any...nevermind.
"Nothing + Nothing = Nothing. Now eat your bribery...err...I mean your breakfast, son." - Fred G. Sanford
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LAVALLOIS Nash
QcGOLD
390
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 16:55:00 -
[51] - Quote
Yeah im not sure If OP is serious or playing a word game. For weeks people were complaining that "logis just WP farm", now, with one post, theres a whole thread full of people who say logis deserve every WP they get. Thats funny. Do people feel really feel that way? Or does this community have an entrenched desire to oppose and oppose?
Im going to go ahead and pretend the OP is serious, and contribute this: He may have a somewhat valid point. It seems that payouts are given based on position at the EOM screen. I know this, because when im #1 on a team that just got smashed (with my 1.5k points or w/e), I get like 300,000 ISK. But when I am in 4th or 5th, I am looking more at under 150,000ISK.
So I understand why some people would feel that way. However I dont support anymore nerfs to the logistics class, as its been a long enough month as it is. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
6075
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 17:00:00 -
[52] - Quote
LAVALLOIS Nash wrote: Yeah im not sure If OP is serious or playing a word game. For weeks people were complaining that "logis just WP farm", now, with one post, theres a whole thread full of people who say logis deserve every WP they get. Thats funny. Do people feel really feel that way? Or does this community have an entrenched desire to oppose and oppose?
Im going to go ahead and pretend the OP is serious, and contribute this: He may have a somewhat valid point. It seems that payouts are given based on position at the EOM screen. I know this, because when im #1 on a team that just got smashed (with my 1.5k points or w/e), I get like 300,000 ISK. But when I am in 4th or 5th, I am looking more at under 150,000ISK.
So I understand why some people would feel that way. However I dont support anymore nerfs to the logistics class, as its been a long enough month as it is.
A better argument would be that the EOM payouts are crap and generated based on an equation that makes no sense.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
1834
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 17:00:00 -
[53] - Quote
firstly logistics players rarely get near 4k wp and fewer still surpass that and in most of those cases their friends who are not logistics get something similar. it is no where near as onesided as top logi at 7k wp while the nearest shooter is at 2k wp
logis require people to use their gear in order to generate wp. its supply and demand. no demand and no wp. high demand and its great wp but no demand and you get nothing.
a shooters wp is not more important than a logis. even if you do want the wp to be the same who's wp are more important... the logi who gets the entire team back into battle with hives and uplinks and repairs and needle or the guy soloing doing his own thing who doesn't care about winning and is just looking to bump his stats and get rewarded more for it.
at the end of the day if i revive 20 players and repair 10000 armor and serve up loads of hives and help 50-100 clones spawn into a single battle. do i not deserve those wp against your killing 30 people in militia suits more than likely which half will get back up. in that scenario i have done far more to keep players in battle than you have done taking players out of it.
this whole thing is stupid. if its not players wanting more isk to offset themselves throwing away isk in battles its them wanting more of something else.
All Hail Legion
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Twelve Guage
Death Firm.
361
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Posted - 2014.12.30 17:01:00 -
[54] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Twelve Guage wrote:
Two thing
First most logi's do not regularly make 7k war points a match the (real number is something like 1k-1.8k a match)
so please stop throwing out bull-**** numbers like that .
Most shooters don't make 3500 WP per match either. The average is around 500-1000 WP, so logis still have them beat. I'm talking about the WP payout of a good logi vs a good shooter. Twelve Guage wrote:Secondly if they do what you suggest then ccp should also raise the price of all suits
to match what logi's run. I believe in equal opportunity to so your suit should cost the
same as my's if not more your killers after all. Got to make everything equal. Separate topic: Free market values should determine the cost of goods in order to make a deeper game system.
I hate to be the one to tell you this but you must be running with some really crappy shooter.
Most of the people I run with who are shoots by the way out score me half of the time.
It's not by a lot but they do still out score me.
And how do you think making your suit the same price as my's is a separate topic.
This goes hand and hand with the isk factor in this game which is tied to guess what
how many war points you get in a game.
Sandwich maker LVL. 5
You've been like by Twelve Gauge = her grabbing your @$$.
CCP has castrated my like button
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Dubya Guy
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
143
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 17:01:00 -
[55] - Quote
Omega Black Zero wrote:For some reason, this feels like a troll post...
Yes, the OP's use of half-veiled insults that are then partially withdrawn, and repeated use of inaccurate or incomplete examples are professional troll tactics. HOWEVER, it is just possible the OP is using them not out of malice, but rather to draw a larger audience to discuss all facets of the issue and come to a consensus viewpoint. He probably believes that by posing as "the bad guy", in such discussions, he is doing the noble thing by leaving room for moderate voices. He likely thinks that he is encouraging participation and dialog by those who would otherwise remain passive.
Personally, I do not enjoy participating in such charades, and I may be giving the OP too much credit, but I do see a lot of well-reasoned opinions in this thread.
FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
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Aiwha Bait
Demonic Cowboys
40
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Posted - 2014.12.30 17:02:00 -
[56] - Quote
Clone D wrote: I am addressing this topic from a standpoint of having played all of the roles, and wondering how we justify sending naked ladies to deliver WP to logis on a silver platter for doing low intensity support jobs.
Wow. The award for extra douchey comment of 2014 goes to Clone D! *golf clap*
"Nothing + Nothing = Nothing. Now eat your bribery...err...I mean your breakfast, son." - Fred G. Sanford
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Mex-0
264
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Posted - 2014.12.30 17:06:00 -
[57] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Clone D wrote:Logi is a simpleton's role I know someone who won't be getting repped or resupplied anytime soon. Clone D wrote:Why is the easy logi role rewarded so much WP (logis can easily top 7000 WP in a battle), while the more intense foot soldier role is rewarded so little (foot soldiers top out in about the 3500 WP range)? Logis are a force-multiplier. One logi increases the effectiveness of a squad significantly. Their EWAR range/precision is useful, they hack faster than other suits innately, they can fit more equipment and have more bandwidth. One smart logi makes a 6 man squad seem like an 8 man squad. But since you don't squad up you probably have no idea what I'm talking about
Do minjas hack faster?
Meh, I give up on FW.
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Leovarian L Lavitz
NECROM0NGERS
1234
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 17:06:00 -
[58] - Quote
This is secretly an anti-bandwidth thread. He is butthurt that he can no longer get the benefits of his HMG while running a scout, you know where that extra heavy weapon stayed on the field after switching suits and shoot at enemies for you? *AHem* I mean, extra equipment from a different class! that's right, slipped up there.
Give it a rest Clone D. Now that you can't get the benefits of another suit by swapping to it and dropping its HMG and then swapping back to your scout and having it give you benefits, damn, I mean equipment again, I'm seeing that you are upset that those wp totals from when you were exploiting are much higher than now thanks to bandwidth.
I'm happy to have bandwidth in, it makes the game much more enjoyable for me. Most matches have been almost point for point on the leaderboard, (1st place on both teams made roughly the same points, and it went down from there).
I'm not sorry to see it go, I'm glad that those who were exploiting before bandwidth got their asses handed to them with it. So no, there will be no normalization of Wp between assaults and Logis. Assaults get KDR, Logis get WPR.
Omni-Soldier
Few are my equal in these specialties, none compare in all of them
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1229
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Posted - 2014.12.30 17:10:00 -
[59] - Quote
Twelve Guage wrote:Clone D wrote:Separate topic: Free market values should determine the cost of goods in order to make a deeper game system. And how do you think making your suit the same price as my's is a separate topic. This goes hand and hand with the isk factor in this game which is tied to guess what how many war points you get in a game.
My opinion on the cost of goods relates to what players are willing to pay for goods in a free market system. If we had to bid against each other for limited goods, then it would add much more weight to the fittings creation process and add weight to the prospect of a clone's death. My opinion is that the cost of goods should be driven by what truly motivates a player to become embroiled in the world of Dust.
One person wants the most powerful gear and would be willing to pay top dollar for it.
The next person may simply want to casually participate in a low cost setting.
The scarcity of items would drive the cost, based on the mining of minerals in the EVE universe, but that is another long discussion.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5787
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 17:14:00 -
[60] - Quote
Mex-0 wrote:Do minjas hack faster? All scouts get a 5% bonus to hacking speed. Minmatar dropsuits get an additional 5% on top of that. Then the Minmatar Scout dropsuit command bonus adds an additional 5% per level.
Minmatar scouts with proto codebreakers and skills at V are hacking insanity.
My advice to you, playa...
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Patrick57
I Have No Idea What I'm Doing
9507
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 17:22:00 -
[61] - Quote
killers get kills to show for their work. logis get wp. What's the problem here?
i fucking hate waffles
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1229
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 17:29:00 -
[62] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Next you'll say you don't want pilots getting WP for anything at all.
No, we need good pilots. What is up with the minimal transportation award? How about when somebody gets out of your vehicle +25 for the lift (cap it per person per minute to kibosh people getting in and out repeatedly). Even if they just spawned there, add +25 when they get out. Carry a full squad into a hazardous zone and drop them off, you just earned yourself +150 WP. Nice.
I do think that killing unsuspecting infantry with an ADS is unsportsmanlike, but hey, it is part of the game, so whatever.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1229
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Posted - 2014.12.30 17:31:00 -
[63] - Quote
Patrick57 wrote:killers get kills to show for their work. logis get wp. What's the problem here?
Well, for one, WP directly influences SP, so this grants a character development advantage to one role over another.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
6078
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 17:34:00 -
[64] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Next you'll say you don't want pilots getting WP for anything at all. No, we need good pilots. What is up with the minimal transportation award? How about when somebody gets out of your vehicle +25 for the lift (cap it per person per minute to kibosh people getting in and out repeatedly). Even if they just spawned there, add +25 when they get out. Carry a full squad into a hazardous zone and drop them off, you just earned yourself +150 WP. Nice. I do think that killing unsuspecting infantry with an ADS is unsportsmanlike, but hey, it is part of the game, so whatever.
being sporting is underrated. if a tank wants to roll over someone or a forge gunner wants to point blank shoot you in the back, it's all good.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Vesta Opalus
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
283
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 17:35:00 -
[65] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Logi is a simpleton's role, yet it is capable of reaping the most WP and acquiring large payouts.
I have played logi with one hand on the controller while talking on the phone for the entire match and ranked #1 with virtually no effort whatsoever. Those who can't do, logi. How hard is it to drop a couple of hives and latch on to a heavy, occasionally picking him up?
Whereas, when I devote my concentration to tactical attack plans, and adaptive execution of those plans, it requires much more intense concentration, soldiering ability and knowhow and yet it is not rewarded very well with WP payout.
Why is the easy logi role rewarded so much WP (logis can easily top 7000 WP in a battle), while the more intense foot soldier role is rewarded so little (foot soldiers top out in about the 3500 WP range)?
I agree that logis are rewarded too much for their role, in particular repair tools and uplinks give a rediculous amount of WP. I think the WP gains for those should be reduced and the WP gains for nanohive ammo distribution should be increased.
I dont agree that logi is a "simpleton's" role. Some matches are brain dead easy, but if you are up against a team that knows what they are doing, you will have to scramble just to survive as a logi, much less actually provide effective support. It becomes much more difficult than just slaying in an assault suit. |
Bright Steel
Horizons' Edge
Proficiency V.
711
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 17:39:00 -
[66] - Quote
I logi walking a heavy around does make a ton of WP with minimal effort the same as the murder taxi or spawn campers.
On the other hand a well balanced team that is receiving equal treatment from their logi is a different story, in these situations I believe 2k to 3k is a very respectable number for said logi.
I'm a average slayer and between some hacks and my one equipment I can easily reach 1k to 2 k WP and I'm not that good....
Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
|
Twelve Guage
Death Firm.
362
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 17:39:00 -
[67] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Twelve Guage wrote:Clone D wrote:Separate topic: Free market values should determine the cost of goods in order to make a deeper game system. And how do you think making your suit the same price as my's is a separate topic. This goes hand and hand with the isk factor in this game which is tied to guess what how many war points you get in a game. My opinion on the cost of goods relates to what players are willing to pay for goods in a free market system. If we had to bid against each other for limited goods, then it would add much more weight to the fittings creation process and add weight to the prospect of a clone's death. My opinion is that the cost of goods should be driven by what truly motivates a player to become embroiled in the world of Dust. One person wants the most powerful gear and would be willing to pay top dollar for it. The next person may simply want to casually participate in a low cost setting. The scarcity of items would drive the cost, based on the mining of minerals in the EVE universe, but that is another long discussion.
This is not an answer to my question and you know it. Wp contribute to isk made
in game. Logi work contributes to WP. Why should you be paid more for only
pointing and shooting at red dots. When a logi has to worry about where to
put their equipment , is it really a good ideal to run out and pick someone up,
this person I'm repping why are they still running at the emery with one forth of
theirs heath, hey I need some reps is there any other logi's around, and getting
gunned down by every suit out there with extreme prejudice because everyone
know they are and easy kill. Oh and lets not for get my personal favorite realizing
your the only logi on the team so now you really have to think three steps a head
or risk having your teamed red-lined or spawn camped. The risk that logi's have to
take just to get those point far out weighs the risk any other suit has to take because
our suit are more expense. So please do try answer my questions again
but this time put a bit more thought into it.
Sandwich maker LVL. 5
You've been like by Twelve Gauge = her grabbing your @$$.
CCP has castrated my like button
|
Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1229
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 17:47:00 -
[68] - Quote
Twelve Guage wrote:Clone D wrote:Twelve Guage wrote:Clone D wrote:Separate topic: Free market values should determine the cost of goods in order to make a deeper game system. And how do you think making your suit the same price as my's is a separate topic. My opinion on the cost of goods relates to what players are willing to pay for goods in a free market system. This is not an answer to my question and you know it.
It is a splendid answer to your question. Basic principle of economics: People respond to incentives. In a free market system, the cost of your dropsuit would directly relate to what you are willing to pay for it in the context of other buyers who also want that dropsuit. Most likely, you and I would be paying different prices for our goods, so no I don't agree with your concept of governing the cost of goods.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
|
Bright Steel
Horizons' Edge
Proficiency V.
712
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 18:01:00 -
[69] - Quote
The only issue I can see, and it is only with logi on heavy farming, is with triage WP amount.
I can revive somone to almost full health and get 90WP but if I repair after a fire fight I can get 100+
I provide a spawn and get only 25WP but get as much in one second running by a scout that's down 30 armor
Also you are rewarded, when trying to farm, by running a standard repper.
Standard rep tool 25WP per 40hp
Proto core focused 25WP per 90hp (May be wrong)
So if I repair a heavy with 900 armor:
Standard gets 550 WP
Proto gets 250WP
This is just wrong and should be addressed.
I would favor a spread of:
Standard 10WP
Advanced 15WP
Proto 20WP
Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
|
Vesta Opalus
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
284
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 18:05:00 -
[70] - Quote
Twelve Guage wrote:Clone D wrote:Twelve Guage wrote:Clone D wrote:Separate topic: Free market values should determine the cost of goods in order to make a deeper game system. And how do you think making your suit the same price as my's is a separate topic. This goes hand and hand with the isk factor in this game which is tied to guess what how many war points you get in a game. My opinion on the cost of goods relates to what players are willing to pay for goods in a free market system. If we had to bid against each other for limited goods, then it would add much more weight to the fittings creation process and add weight to the prospect of a clone's death. My opinion is that the cost of goods should be driven by what truly motivates a player to become embroiled in the world of Dust. One person wants the most powerful gear and would be willing to pay top dollar for it. The next person may simply want to casually participate in a low cost setting. The scarcity of items would drive the cost, based on the mining of minerals in the EVE universe, but that is another long discussion. This is not an answer to my question and you know it. Wp contribute to isk made in game. Logi work contributes to WP. Why should you be paid more for only pointing and shooting at red dots. When a logi has to worry about where to put their equipment , is it really a good ideal to run out and pick someone up, this person I'm repping why are they still running at the emery with one forth of theirs heath, hey I need some reps is there any other logi's around, and getting gunned down by every suit out there with extreme prejudice because everyone know they are and easy kill. Oh and lets not for get my personal favorite realizing your the only logi on the team so now you really have to think three steps a head or risk having your teamed red-lined or spawn camped. The risk that logi's have to take just to get those point far out weighs the risk any other suit has to take because our suit are more expense. So please do try answer my questions again but this time put a bit more thought into it.
Just like any free market believer, he wants to introduce false scarcity in the market so things behave as he wants them to behave. Meanwhile the only people who will truly do well in that system are the ones that have banked billions of isk from PC exploitation. |
|
|
Zindorak
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
1456
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 18:09:00 -
[71] - Quote
Logi is a support role. Who place all the uplinks? Who keeps your proto healed? Who supplies ammo? The logi so it makes sense that he gets all the WP
Pokemon master and Tekken Lord
Give me da iskiez
Gk0 Scout yay :)
|
Twelve Guage
Death Firm.
363
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 18:12:00 -
[72] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Twelve Guage wrote:Clone D wrote:Twelve Guage wrote:Clone D wrote:Separate topic: Free market values should determine the cost of goods in order to make a deeper game system. And how do you think making your suit the same price as my's is a separate topic. My opinion on the cost of goods relates to what players are willing to pay for goods in a free market system. This is not an answer to my question and you know it. It is a splendid answer to your question. Basic principle of economics: People respond to incentives. In a free market system, the cost of your dropsuit would directly relate to what you are willing to pay for it in the context of other buyers who also want that dropsuit. Most likely, you and I would be paying different prices for our goods, so no I don't agree with your concept of governing the cost of goods.
Right please stop editing my post and it is still not any answer to my question.
This also does not address the other point i made in my last post.
I will ask again why you think you should get the same amount of
war points/ isk/skill points as a hard working (thinking) logi vs
just point and shoot( no thinking) suit. Of course you wouldn't
agree on a concept of governing the cost of goods because your
only interested in make things better for yourself instead all around
fair for everyone.
You say logi's should get less war points because the role is simple.
Then it turns out your not even really skilled into being a logi. The only
thing your really are skilled into is up-links. When ask how to make
things fair for everyone, you say basically say point should be evenly
distributed but nothing else should change and for some reason
you really think people should run a suit with no positive so that you
can see your name at the top of a leader broad. Nothing you have
said supports the risk vs reward mechanic in this game.
You my dear OP are a troll
Sandwich maker LVL. 5
You've been like by Twelve Gauge = her grabbing your @$$.
CCP has castrated my like button
|
Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1230
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 18:47:00 -
[73] - Quote
Twelve Guage wrote:Then it turns out your not even really skilled into being a logi.
To stay on topic, you don't have to be skilled into being a logi in order to make huge amounts of WP. That emphasizes the op; logis are overpaid, or shooters are underpaid.
Or maybe we should designate Dust as an FPH and call it a day.
"Wow, I can't wait to know what it's like to heal wounded soldiers while remaining safely behind the defensive line."
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
|
Twelve Guage
Death Firm.
364
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 18:51:00 -
[74] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Twelve Guage wrote:Then it turns out your not even really skilled into being a logi. To stay on topic, you don't have to be skilled into being a logi in order to make huge amounts of WP. That emphasizes the op; logis are overpaid, or shooters are underpaid. Or maybe we should designate Dust as an FPH and call it a day. "Wow, I can't wait to know what it's like to heal wounded soldiers while remaining safely behind the defensive line."
Oh nose ur a troll placing his bait. I nose falls 4 taht nose more. Good day Op.
Sandwich maker LVL. 5
You've been like by Twelve Gauge = her grabbing your @$$.
CCP has castrated my like button
|
Leadfoot10
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2805
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 19:04:00 -
[75] - Quote
I agree with the premise of the OP, if not some of the details.
Bottom line: WP are awarded at too high a rate for logis. Some WP dialback is warranted. I would prefer it is done so by simply lowering some of the WP values rather than a timed turnoff like was implemented for WP coming from rep tools.
Bottom line: Logi takes a great deal of skill to play well, and they increase the effectiveness of their teammates, and they deserve to have this behavior rewarded with WP. However, they are getting too many WP, so the numbers simply need to be dialed back a bit, IMO. |
Bright Steel
Horizons' Edge
Proficiency V.
713
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 19:17:00 -
[76] - Quote
Leadfoot10 wrote:I agree with the premise of the OP, if not some of the details.
My observations: WP are awarded at too high a rate for logis. Some WP dialback is warranted. I would prefer it is done so by simply lowering some of the WP values rather than a timed turnoff like was implemented for WP coming from rep tools.
Bottom line: Logis take a great deal of skill to play well, and they increase the effectiveness of their teammates, and they deserve to have this behavior rewarded with WP. However, they are getting too many WP, so the numbers simply need to be dialed back a bit, IMO.
As I said earlier on this page, the real problem lies with the rep tool.
Without a heavy to follow and farm you wouldnt see 7k logis.
Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
|
Dubya Guy
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
146
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 19:17:00 -
[77] - Quote
Leadfoot10 wrote:I agree with the premise of the OP, if not some of the details.
My observations: WP are awarded at too high a rate for logis. Some WP dialback is warranted. I would prefer it is done so by simply lowering some of the WP values rather than a timed turnoff like was implemented for WP coming from rep tools.
Bottom line: Logis take a great deal of skill to play well, and they increase the effectiveness of their teammates, and they deserve to have this behavior rewarded with WP. However, they are getting too many WP, so the numbers simply need to be dialed back a bit, IMO.
Thanks to the deliberately obnoxious and extreme starting point of the OP, this sounds downright reasonable. See how that works? Had this been the original post, folks would have been somewhere between "meh" and "you're wrong but I like you anyway." Now we all want to agree with Leadfoot10 because he sounds so much more accommodating in comparison to Clone D and does not insult anyone's role or skills.
FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
|
Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5807
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 19:31:00 -
[78] - Quote
Dubya Guy wrote: Now we all want to agree with Leadfoot10 because he sounds so much more accommodating in comparison to Clone D and does not insult anyone's role or skills. The goal of this thread wasn't thoughtful discourse, it was to troll
My advice to you, playa...
|
RayRay James
Titans of Phoenix
852
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 19:35:00 -
[79] - Quote
Leadfoot10 wrote:I agree with the premise of the OP, if not some of the details.
My observations: WP are awarded at too high a rate for logis. Some WP dialback is warranted. I would prefer it is done so by simply lowering some of the WP values rather than a timed turnoff like was implemented for WP coming from rep tools.
Bottom line: Logis take a great deal of skill to play well, and they increase the effectiveness of their teammates, and they deserve to have this behavior rewarded with WP. However, they are getting too many WP, so the numbers simply need to be dialed back a bit, IMO.
They've been slowly doing that. Look what they just did to needles, which was a needed change as there was no reason to run the better needles except in PC (which it's still looked down upon by some teammates, even when I save their 230K isk suit... f##kers)
|
Vesta Opalus
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
285
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 20:16:00 -
[80] - Quote
RayRay James wrote:Leadfoot10 wrote:I agree with the premise of the OP, if not some of the details.
My observations: WP are awarded at too high a rate for logis. Some WP dialback is warranted. I would prefer it is done so by simply lowering some of the WP values rather than a timed turnoff like was implemented for WP coming from rep tools.
Bottom line: Logis take a great deal of skill to play well, and they increase the effectiveness of their teammates, and they deserve to have this behavior rewarded with WP. However, they are getting too many WP, so the numbers simply need to be dialed back a bit, IMO. They've been slowly doing that. Look what they just did to needles, which was a needed change as there was no reason to run the better needles except in PC (which it's still looked down upon by some teammates, even when I save their 230K isk suit... f##kers)
Because needles are counterproductive in PC, where the objective is to win.
Needling someone is wasting time that could be used to be shooting someone or hacking something or killing uplinks or laying uplinks. Whoever you just needled would have come back 3 seconds later regardless, with fullhealth/ammo, at a location of their choosing that might desperately need help.
Its a double waste that is counter productive to the goal of PC: to win the match.
In pubs the real goal is to have fun and to go ISK positive, so the needle is cool here.
I dont like it at all but thats just the way it is in PC. |
|
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Starlight Burner
ROGUE RELICS
VP Gaming Alliance
53
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 20:52:00 -
[81] - Quote
Personally, I agree with him though. I mean like think about.
A logi has many many ways to get WP. In this game, your payout is determined by your WP instead of what you've personally destroyed, repaired, hacked/dehacked or assisted due to the 'shared pool payouts' bullshits.
The payouts are too shared between everyone and relies heavily on what your WP are. Which in this case, slayers typically get lower payouts when there is a logi on their team sucking up the WP.
well, you can play Logi too and earn the same amount of isk. So, what's your point you dumb ******.
Well, that is true, but I don't like the logi role. It's not fun to me, as I'd rather be the person shooting than the medic in this game (ARMA it's a different story).
I agree with the OP, as the the payouts are aimed higher towards people being a logi and supporting the team, when if you didn't have players like us, you wouldn't have a forward push most of the time.
If payouts weren't so leaved towards higher WP and a ****** as Shared isk pool, then I wouldn't be commenting or reading this post; however that's not the case here.
I agree with OP, logis get more isk payouts but I'd like to get paid more for slayers doing our part too.
Thank god for CCP Rattati!!
Rogue Relics is my home away from home.
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Michael Epic
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
395
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 20:55:00 -
[82] - Quote
Hey OP, what about me? I'm one of the last of the dying breed of logi slayers....
My dropsuit fitting (Named "The Tuxedo")
Logistics gk.0
Modules:
x3 Complex Shield Extenders
x5 Complex Ferroscale Plates
Weapons:
Duvolle Assault Rifle
Flux Grenade
Equipment:
F/45 Remote Explosives
Wiyrkomi Nanite Injector
BDR-8 Triage Repair Tool
Shield: 330hp
Armor: 637hp
TOTAL EHP: 967 hit points
So not only can I lay traps with my RE's and blow you up, but I can stop off...needle a fallen comrade, fix them up with the repair tool....stop by and rep a heavy on my way to mow your monkey ass down with my Duvolle Assault Rifle whilst you try to shotgun me with your scout only to find out I'm alpha tanked or you realize I'm tanked heavier than your heavy!
So lets say I rock 35 kills, 12 deaths and enough WP to put me in the 7500-8000 range, do I not deserve that? I busted my ass and worked for it....I stabbed, repped, boomed, fluxed and ratta tat tat'd you to death holmes #forthewin |
Buwaro Draemon
WarRavens
Capital Punishment.
523
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 20:58:00 -
[83] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Clone D wrote:Logi is a simpleton's role I know someone who won't be getting repped or resupplied anytime soon. Clone D wrote:Why is the easy logi role rewarded so much WP (logis can easily top 7000 WP in a battle), while the more intense foot soldier role is rewarded so little (foot soldiers top out in about the 3500 WP range)? Logis are a force-multiplier. One logi increases the effectiveness of a squad significantly. Their EWAR range/precision is useful, they hack faster than other suits innately, they can fit more equipment and have more bandwidth. One smart logi makes a 6 man squad seem like an 8 man squad. But since you don't squad up you probably have no idea what I'm talking about
Wait, Logi's have faster hacks?
I thought all suits have same hacking speed in exception of the skill and MinScout
Changes to Damage mods!
|
Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5820
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 20:59:00 -
[84] - Quote
Buwaro Draemon wrote:Wait, Logi's have faster hacks? I thought all suits have same hacking speed in exception of the skill and MinScout All logis enjoy a 15% faster hack speed. Minmatar logis get a 20% boost.
My advice to you, playa...
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Leadfoot10
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2810
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 21:00:00 -
[85] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:RayRay James wrote:Leadfoot10 wrote:I agree with the premise of the OP, if not some of the details.
My observations: WP are awarded at too high a rate for logis. Some WP dialback is warranted. I would prefer it is done so by simply lowering some of the WP values rather than a timed turnoff like was implemented for WP coming from rep tools.
Bottom line: Logis take a great deal of skill to play well, and they increase the effectiveness of their teammates, and they deserve to have this behavior rewarded with WP. However, they are getting too many WP, so the numbers simply need to be dialed back a bit, IMO. They've been slowly doing that. Look what they just did to needles, which was a needed change as there was no reason to run the better needles except in PC (which it's still looked down upon by some teammates, even when I save their 230K isk suit... f##kers) Because needles are counterproductive in PC, where the objective is to win. Needling someone is wasting time that could be used to be shooting someone or hacking something or killing uplinks or laying uplinks. Whoever you just needled would have come back 3 seconds later regardless, with fullhealth/ammo, at a location of their choosing that might desperately need help. Its a double waste that is counter productive to the goal of PC: to win the match. In pubs the real goal is to have fun and to go ISK positive, so the needle is cool here. I dont like it at all but thats just the way it is in PC.
Respectfully, I dispute your "way it is in PC".
Needles are hardly counterproductive in the PCs I play in every single day.
The recent change in how they recharge shields, along with the LP 100% needle, have changed the PC dynamic -- and I see more and more logis using the needle.
They are still not as popular as reptools or spawns, and they're still not the go to equipment out of the gate, but the needle is being used more and more in PCs by skilled logis supporting heavies and assaults in the city sockets...because, in many cases, it's faster to needle someone than it is to respawn....and it saves clones...and both of these help you win. |
JIMvc2
The Wanga Empire Strikes Back
483
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 21:02:00 -
[86] - Quote
Logi being a simple role = My ******* ass. Being a logi is much more inportant than assault.
With no logies in the battlefield = Battles will be slow.
The logi role is important but since you dont care, No Ammo and Rep for You.
You think being a logi is easy then go ahead and give it a try because its not easy.
MAG Raven vet 7 times. Favorite weapon F90 and Highest Kills 78 and 23 deaths.
|
Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1235
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 21:25:00 -
[87] - Quote
Michael Epic wrote:"The Tuxedo"
Do not show that to Ripley. He will laugh at you and make you cry  .
Personally, I think it's awesome.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
|
Cat Merc
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
14159
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 21:26:00 -
[88] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Clone D wrote:Logi is a simpleton's role I know someone who won't be getting repped or resupplied anytime soon. Clone D wrote:Why is the easy logi role rewarded so much WP (logis can easily top 7000 WP in a battle), while the more intense foot soldier role is rewarded so little (foot soldiers top out in about the 3500 WP range)? Logis are a force-multiplier. One logi increases the effectiveness of a squad significantly. Their EWAR range/precision is useful, they hack faster than other suits innately, they can fit more equipment and have more bandwidth. One smart logi makes a 6 man squad seem like an 8 man squad. But since you don't squad up you probably have no idea what I'm talking about
rekt
Feline overlord of all humans
Assault Conglomerate: Because we don't shave
|
Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1235
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 21:38:00 -
[89] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:But since you don't squad up you probably have no idea what I'm talking about rekt
I actually do regularly squad up with a few different groups, so I have perspective on that.
Due to technical difficulties with audio and framerate/lag, I have a predilection toward running solo.
Solo or squadded, it is easy to see a logi's contribution to the team. Personally, I'd rather have a supply depot nearby. Regardless, the logi's contribution is noted, but the WP pay scale is out of balance imo.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
|
ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
1834
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 21:54:00 -
[90] - Quote
shooter get too much wp for that they do.
they should get 5wp for killing mlt with their proto weapon
and 50 for killing a proto with their mlt weapon
using proto against mlt is just too easy wp farming
All Hail Legion
|
|
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Aiwha Bait
Demonic Cowboys
43
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 22:09:00 -
[91] - Quote
ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:shooter get too much wp for that they do.
they should get 5wp for killing mlt with their proto weapon
and 50 for killing a proto with their mlt weapon
using proto against mlt is just too easy wp farming
There's no way to adjust that for each weapon. There has to be a universal point for killing a person, and that is 50. You need to conform to the battlefield, players, & situations.
"Nothing + Nothing = Nothing. Now eat your bribery...err...I mean your breakfast, son." - Fred G. Sanford
|
Aiwha Bait
Demonic Cowboys
43
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 22:20:00 -
[92] - Quote
Twelve Guage wrote:Clone D wrote:Twelve Guage wrote:Clone D wrote:Separate topic: Free market values should determine the cost of goods in order to make a deeper game system. And how do you think making your suit the same price as my's is a separate topic. This goes hand and hand with the isk factor in this game which is tied to guess what how many war points you get in a game. My opinion on the cost of goods relates to what players are willing to pay for goods in a free market system. If we had to bid against each other for limited goods, then it would add much more weight to the fittings creation process and add weight to the prospect of a clone's death. My opinion is that the cost of goods should be driven by what truly motivates a player to become embroiled in the world of Dust. One person wants the most powerful gear and would be willing to pay top dollar for it. The next person may simply want to casually participate in a low cost setting. The scarcity of items would drive the cost, based on the mining of minerals in the EVE universe, but that is another long discussion. This is not an answer to my question and you know it. Wp contribute to isk made in game. Logi work contributes to WP. Why should you be paid more for only pointing and shooting at red dots. When a logi has to worry about where to put their equipment , is it really a good ideal to run out and pick someone up, this person I'm repping why are they still running at the emery with one forth of theirs heath, hey I need some reps is there any other logi's around, and getting gunned down by every suit out there with extreme prejudice because everyone know they are and easy kill. Oh and lets not for get my personal favorite realizing your the only logi on the team so now you really have to think three steps a head or risk having your teamed red-lined or spawn camped. The risk that logi's have to take just to get those point far out weighs the risk any other suit has to take because our suit are more expense. So please do try answer my questions again but this time put a bit more thought into it.
rekt
"Nothing + Nothing = Nothing. Now eat your bribery...err...I mean your breakfast, son." - Fred G. Sanford
|
Nirwanda Vaughns
1157
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 22:23:00 -
[93] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:Clone D wrote:Logi is a simpleton's role I know someone who won't be getting repped or resupplied anytime soon. The formula is: Put hives down. Latch on. Pick up. die lots!!
updated it for you
Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience
proud C-II bpo owner
|
Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1236
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 22:30:00 -
[94] - Quote
Aiwha Bait wrote:Twelve Guage wrote:Clone D wrote:Twelve Guage wrote:Clone D wrote:Separate topic: Free market values should determine the cost of goods in order to make a deeper game system. And how do you think making your suit the same price as my's is a separate topic. This goes hand and hand with the isk factor in this game which is tied to guess what how many war points you get in a game. My opinion on the cost of goods relates to what players are willing to pay for goods in a free market system. If we had to bid against each other for limited goods, then it would add much more weight to the fittings creation process and add weight to the prospect of a clone's death. My opinion is that the cost of goods should be driven by what truly motivates a player to become embroiled in the world of Dust. One person wants the most powerful gear and would be willing to pay top dollar for it. The next person may simply want to casually participate in a low cost setting. The scarcity of items would drive the cost, based on the mining of minerals in the EVE universe, but that is another long discussion. This is not an answer to my question and you know it. Wp contribute to isk made in game. Logi work contributes to WP. Why should you be paid more for only pointing and shooting at red dots. When a logi has to worry about where to put their equipment , is it really a good ideal to run out and pick someone up, this person I'm repping why are they still running at the emery with one forth of theirs heath, hey I need some reps is there any other logi's around, and getting gunned down by every suit out there with extreme prejudice because everyone know they are and easy kill. Oh and lets not for get my personal favorite realizing your the only logi on the team so now you really have to think three steps a head or risk having your teamed red-lined or spawn camped. The risk that logi's have to take just to get those point far out weighs the risk any other suit has to take because our suit are more expense. So please do try answer my questions again but this time put a bit more thought into it. rekt
If you look in the store, a proto logi dropsuit costs 57,690 and so does a proto assault, so I fail to see your point.
I dunno. What do you want me to say in order for you not to say rekt. I really hate that. I cannot stand someone saying rekt to me. I just want to say whatever it will take in order to make you stop saying rekt.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
1834
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Posted - 2014.12.30 22:31:00 -
[95] - Quote
Aiwha Bait wrote:ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:shooter get too much wp for that they do.
they should get 5wp for killing mlt with their proto weapon
and 50 for killing a proto with their mlt weapon
using proto against mlt is just too easy wp farming There's no way to adjust that for each weapon. There has to be a universal point for killing a person, and that is 50. You need to conform to the battlefield, players, & situations.
precisely the point. there are universal points for all equipment. how can you limit the wp of logistics when every logi fits different quantities of different equipment at different levels which supply wp at different rates. 1 match i could be hitting 2.5k but so are all the shooters. but thats not the issue. the issue is often logistics will be left behind because your team is good and are not dieing, not taking damage,not using your uplinks meaning no or little wp.
there is no such thing as equal or balanced rewards for effort in dust because everyone plays it differently. and you cannot predict in any way how and when a logistics will earn his wp. so if this idea went ahead what we will get is logistics getting widely varying levels of wp due to the complexity of what we do while shooters will be rewarded more which will vary very little as the variables for earning wp for shooters are much more simple.
All Hail Legion
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CPM Awox
xXEspeon's VillageXx
49
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Posted - 2014.12.30 22:33:00 -
[96] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:As an Assault.
**** no. **** you.
Logis deserve every WP they get.
Calling logi a simpletons role is really hypocritical, too. They are the most though intensive role in the game.
Slayers are the simple roles. Run. Kill. Rinse. Repeat.
Logis are those ones that are always making sure everyone is topped off for HP, always asking their squadmates if they have ammo or not, reviving downed blues, and scanning the places that need to be scanned.
As a Sentinel.
This guy can go **** himself. Logies are the ****. Keep repping my fatself all you want guys don't let this **** wit tell your other wise.
Killed again has Super-Ebola.
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benandjerrys
NECROM0NGERS
67
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 22:51:00 -
[97] - Quote
As a closed beta true logibro even when logisults and scouts ruled the battlefield... I care about w's and l's not wp not k/d wp and kd shows a diluted efficiency of your performance regardless of your job. Wp generation has been nerfed already with baseline wp offence/defense. So go ahead equalize all support actions to 15 and guardian to 25 and see if I care my repper tool and scans will still flow. |
PARKOUR PRACTIONER
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
2344
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 22:58:00 -
[98] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Clone D wrote:I agree with this, but that doesn't mean to say that it is difficult or deserving of such high payouts. The logi role isn't altogether the most fun role to play. If logis didn't receive a bump in WPs we would have half as many of them running around and I'm not okay with that. This too... KING CHECKMATE wrote:IT pays the most WP because its what most people who play a FPS DONT want to do. Help others. Also, I disagree with the statement "isn't difficult". Maybe if you just drop uplinks around, actively avoid the fire fights, and occasionally top off a bluberries armor when you pass one, sure. But logis who are in the thick of the fight have to watch themselves. Their dropsuits are basically made of hamburger wrappers and hope. If they fit decent equipment they have to sacrifice some eHP too. By the way, logis who are in the fire with their squads are frequently the primary targets because of the aforementioned low eHP.
Can agree with the last sentence a lot. In PC, i go after the logis because no logis- no support.
PSN Sil4ntChaozz
Suits- Gk.0/Mk.0 'Sever' scout Weapons- SG, NK, SmG, ScP, CR, SR, ARR, REs
Specialty- Nice Lone Wolf
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PARKOUR PRACTIONER
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
2344
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 23:06:00 -
[99] - Quote
Clone, this statement and many others are entirely incorrect.
If its so simpleton like, why are logis constantly targeted with extreme prejudice? (including me)
PSN Sil4ntChaozz
Suits- Gk.0/Mk.0 'Sever' scout Weapons- SG, NK, SmG, ScP, CR, SR, ARR, REs
Specialty- Nice Lone Wolf
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Nirwanda Vaughns
1157
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 23:08:00 -
[100] - Quote
It takes quite a bit of tweakign to be a good logi, sure anyone can pickup a logi suit and slap on a repper but your suit can cost twice as much as an assault once you stick all the high end equipment on it and you probably die twice as much too. its not a cheap job is being a logi.
it is a good way for new players to build SP up and with right setup make a lot of isk using a basic logi suit and a BDR-8 triage repper. i've never been a great FPS gamer so i choose to be a medic as my way of contributing and i've been a logi since i joined in Mordus private trials, addmitedly as i've gotten better at the game i've branched out and i'm a capable assault or heavy as well now but if it comes to PC i'll always fall back to my logi roots running after the same 2 guys in their heavy suits that i've done so for the past 2yrs lol
perhaps triage points could do with dropping from 25wp a cycle but i'm sure the squad commisions have been removed so logis do earn less points now running around the field than you used to
Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience
proud C-II bpo owner
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1237
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Posted - 2014.12.30 23:19:00 -
[101] - Quote
PARKOUR PRACTIONER wrote:Clone, this statement and many others are entirely incorrect.
If its so simpleton like, why are logis constantly targeted with extreme prejudice? (including me)
It is merely a provocative opinion. I am friends with several logis and I don't have a problem with logis. When I compare what I have to do to make massive points as a logi to what I have to do to make the most points I can as a shooter, then the amount of work and skills required just don't add up to the 7k logi payouts. I thought I would bring it up to you guys and see what you had to say about the matter.
Ultimately, I want to see foot soldiers have the ability to earn as many warpoints as logis using standard soldiering practices.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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postapo wastelander
Sebiestor Field Sappers
Minmatar Republic
862
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Posted - 2014.12.30 23:28:00 -
[102] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Logi is a simpleton's role, yet it is capable of reaping the most WP and acquiring large payouts.
I have played logi with one hand on the controller while talking on the phone for the entire match and ranked #1 with virtually no effort whatsoever. Those who can't do, logi. How hard is it to drop a couple of hives and latch on to a heavy, occasionally picking him up?
Whereas, when I devote my concentration to tactical attack plans, and adaptive execution of those plans, it requires much more intense concentration, soldiering ability and knowhow and yet it is not rewarded very well with WP payout.
Why is the easy logi role rewarded so much WP (logis can easily top 7000 WP in a battle), while the more intense foot soldier role is rewarded so little (foot soldiers top out in about the 3500 WP range)?
U are just Troll my friend or honestly bad about thinking some ideas.
You thinking you are only one who thinking tacticaly on battlefield?
No you are not.
People who devoted their playstyle to support should have reward basicaly stated on their behaviour on the field.
End of story.
"We build from rust"
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
1834
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 23:32:00 -
[103] - Quote
Clone D wrote:PARKOUR PRACTIONER wrote:Clone, this statement and many others are entirely incorrect.
If its so simpleton like, why are logis constantly targeted with extreme prejudice? (including me) It is merely a provocative opinion. I am friends with several logis and I don't have a problem with logis. When I compare what I have to do to make massive points as a logi to what I have to do to make the most points I can as a shooter, then the amount of work and skills required just don't add up to the 7k logi payouts. I thought I would bring it up to you guys and see what you had to say about the matter. Ultimately, I want to see foot soldiers have the ability to earn as many warpoints as logis using standard soldiering practices.
where the hell are you getting this rubbish about 7k wp being easily obtainable by logistics.
All Hail Legion
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Starlight Burner
ROGUE RELICS
VP Gaming Alliance
54
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Posted - 2014.12.30 23:32:00 -
[104] - Quote
postapo wastelander wrote:Clone D wrote:Logi is a simpleton's role, yet it is capable of reaping the most WP and acquiring large payouts.
I have played logi with one hand on the controller while talking on the phone for the entire match and ranked #1 with virtually no effort whatsoever. Those who can't do, logi. How hard is it to drop a couple of hives and latch on to a heavy, occasionally picking him up?
Whereas, when I devote my concentration to tactical attack plans, and adaptive execution of those plans, it requires much more intense concentration, soldiering ability and knowhow and yet it is not rewarded very well with WP payout.
Why is the easy logi role rewarded so much WP (logis can easily top 7000 WP in a battle), while the more intense foot soldier role is rewarded so little (foot soldiers top out in about the 3500 WP range)? U are just Troll my friend or honestly bad about thinking some ideas. You thinking you are only one who thinking tacticaly on battlefield? No you are not. People who devoted their playstyle to support should have reward basicaly stated on their behaviour on the field. End of story.
Personally, I agree with OP though. I mean like think about.
A logi has many many ways to get WP. In this game, your payout is determined by your WP instead of what you've personally destroyed, repaired, hacked/dehacked or assisted due to the 'shared pool payouts' bullshits.
The payouts are too shared between everyone and relies heavily on what your WP are. Which in this case, slayers typically get lower payouts when there is a logi on their team sucking up the WP.
well, you can play Logi too and earn the same amount of isk. So, what's your point you dumb ******.
Well, that is true, but I don't like the logi role. It's not fun to me, as I'd rather be the person shooting than the medic in this game (ARMA it's a different story).
I agree with the OP, as the the payouts are aimed higher towards people being a logi and supporting the team, when if you didn't have players like us, you wouldn't have a forward push most of the time.
If payouts weren't so leaved towards higher WP and a ****** as Shared isk pool, then I wouldn't be commenting or reading this post; however that's not the case here.
I agree with OP, logis get more isk payouts, I don't believe their payments from battles should be lowered, but we slayers would like to get paid for doing our part too.
Thank god for CCP Rattati!!
Rogue Relics is my home away from home.
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1237
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Posted - 2014.12.30 23:42:00 -
[105] - Quote
ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:Clone D wrote:PARKOUR PRACTIONER wrote:Clone, this statement and many others are entirely incorrect.
If its so simpleton like, why are logis constantly targeted with extreme prejudice? (including me) It is merely a provocative opinion. I am friends with several logis and I don't have a problem with logis. When I compare what I have to do to make massive points as a logi to what I have to do to make the most points I can as a shooter, then the amount of work and skills required just don't add up to the 7k logi payouts. I thought I would bring it up to you guys and see what you had to say about the matter. Ultimately, I want to see foot soldiers have the ability to earn as many warpoints as logis using standard soldiering practices. where the hell are you getting this rubbish about 7k wp being easily obtainable by logistics.
Experience and friends' experience. Also, there was a comment in this thread mentioning 7.5k to 8k WP payouts. Try it some time.
A shooter would have to drop 140 clones to do that. A logi just has to hold R1 for the majority of the match.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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P14GU3
Savage Bullet
976
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Posted - 2014.12.30 23:50:00 -
[106] - Quote
Clone D wrote:ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:Clone D wrote:PARKOUR PRACTIONER wrote:Clone, this statement and many others are entirely incorrect.
If its so simpleton like, why are logis constantly targeted with extreme prejudice? (including me) It is merely a provocative opinion. I am friends with several logis and I don't have a problem with logis. When I compare what I have to do to make massive points as a logi to what I have to do to make the most points I can as a shooter, then the amount of work and skills required just don't add up to the 7k logi payouts. I thought I would bring it up to you guys and see what you had to say about the matter. Ultimately, I want to see foot soldiers have the ability to earn as many warpoints as logis using standard soldiering practices. where the hell are you getting this rubbish about 7k wp being easily obtainable by logistics. Experience and friends' experience. Also, there was a comment in this thread mentioning 7.5k to 8k WP payouts. Try it some time. A shooter would have to drop 140 clones to do that. A logi just has to hold R1 for the majority of the match.
First of all, there is a cap on triage points. Its literally impossible to gain 7k wp from just holding R1. Im a pretty decent logi and I have broke 7k like twice.. the BEST any logi in the community has done is 8k and some change, and that happens rarely. To get points like that, it has to be a hard fought battle, and you have to be the only logi on the field worth a damn.
Logis have slowly been nerfed on their WP over the years with triage caps and now bandwidth. Numbers like that are getting a LOT harder to put up. Im a fairly good logi and I rarely put up over 4k wp anymore, and thats a tough battle with a good squad. Logis and slayers are as close in WP as they have ever been with the introduction of objective defense points. Logis need some serious love, it is likely the toughest class to run right now and you are trying to nerf them more?
I only play dust514ums now. It was always more fun than the actual game anyways.
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
1834
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Posted - 2014.12.31 00:23:00 -
[107] - Quote
Clone D wrote:ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:Clone D wrote:PARKOUR PRACTIONER wrote:Clone, this statement and many others are entirely incorrect.
If its so simpleton like, why are logis constantly targeted with extreme prejudice? (including me) It is merely a provocative opinion. I am friends with several logis and I don't have a problem with logis. When I compare what I have to do to make massive points as a logi to what I have to do to make the most points I can as a shooter, then the amount of work and skills required just don't add up to the 7k logi payouts. I thought I would bring it up to you guys and see what you had to say about the matter. Ultimately, I want to see foot soldiers have the ability to earn as many warpoints as logis using standard soldiering practices. where the hell are you getting this rubbish about 7k wp being easily obtainable by logistics. Experience and friends' experience. Also, there was a comment in this thread mentioning 7.5k to 8k WP payouts. Try it some time. A shooter would have to drop 140 clones to do that. A logi just has to hold R1 for the majority of the match.
my experience is being a logi for nearly 2 years now and i have never seen anyone on either side earn more than 4kwp and when that happened the shooters were only a few hundred points behind them. not saying it has never happened. i have seen 1 youtube video in that entire time for 7.5k and that was a year ago. i would say that is pretty damn far from a common occurrence.
also i searched this thread and no comments that i could see from anyone but you about seeing 7k wp payouts
All Hail Legion
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postapo wastelander
Sebiestor Field Sappers
Minmatar Republic
863
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Posted - 2014.12.31 00:27:00 -
[108] - Quote
Starlight Burner wrote:postapo wastelander wrote:Clone D wrote:Logi is a simpleton's role, yet it is capable of reaping the most WP and acquiring large payouts.
I have played logi with one hand on the controller while talking on the phone for the entire match and ranked #1 with virtually no effort whatsoever. Those who can't do, logi. How hard is it to drop a couple of hives and latch on to a heavy, occasionally picking him up?
Whereas, when I devote my concentration to tactical attack plans, and adaptive execution of those plans, it requires much more intense concentration, soldiering ability and knowhow and yet it is not rewarded very well with WP payout.
Why is the easy logi role rewarded so much WP (logis can easily top 7000 WP in a battle), while the more intense foot soldier role is rewarded so little (foot soldiers top out in about the 3500 WP range)? U are just Troll my friend or honestly bad about thinking some ideas. You thinking you are only one who thinking tacticaly on battlefield? No you are not. People who devoted their playstyle to support should have reward basicaly stated on their behaviour on the field. End of story. Personally, I agree with OP though. I mean like think about. A logi has many many ways to get WP. In this game, your payout is determined by your WP instead of what you've personally destroyed, repaired, hacked/dehacked or assisted due to the 'shared pool payouts' bullshits. The payouts are too shared between everyone and relies heavily on what your WP are. Which in this case, slayers typically get lower payouts when there is a logi on their team sucking up the WP. well, you can play Logi too and earn the same amount of isk. So, what's your point you dumb ******.Well, that is true, but I don't like the logi role. It's not fun to me, as I'd rather be the person shooting than the medic in this game (ARMA it's a different story). I agree with the OP, as the the payouts are aimed higher towards people being a logi and supporting the team, when if you didn't have players like us, you wouldn't have a forward push most of the time. If payouts weren't so leaved towards higher WP and a ****** as Shared isk pool, then I wouldn't be commenting or reading this post; however that's not the case here. I agree with OP, logis get more isk payouts, I don't believe their payments from battles should be lowered, but we slayers would like to get paid for doing our part too.
"The payouts are aimed higher towards people being a logi and supporting the team."
Hevete it is should be, doing cooperative support is most important thing, end of story
"We build from rust"
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1237
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Posted - 2014.12.31 00:42:00 -
[109] - Quote
ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:[..] i searched this thread and no comments that i could see from anyone but you about seeing 7k wp payouts
Here:
Michael Epic wrote:[...]So lets say I rock 35 kills, 12 deaths and enough WP to put me in the 7500-8000 range, do I not deserve that? I busted my ass and worked for it....I stabbed, repped, boomed, fluxed and ratta tat tat'd you to death holmes #forthewin
Michael Epic is awesome!
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
1430
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Posted - 2014.12.31 00:44:00 -
[110] - Quote
Repping gives too much WP. I can lock onto a heavy and watch the +25's just start rolling in. If he kills someone, he gets 50 and I get 35, plus he probably took some damage so I'll get 75 or 100 more. What I'm doing is important, but I am supporting, not the star, I shouldn't get so much greater reward.
Because, that's why.
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
1840
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Posted - 2014.12.31 01:58:00 -
[111] - Quote
Clone D wrote:ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:[..] i searched this thread and no comments that i could see from anyone but you about seeing 7k wp payouts
Here: Michael Epic wrote:[...]So lets say I rock 35 kills, 12 deaths and enough WP to put me in the 7500-8000 range, do I not deserve that? I busted my ass and worked for it....I stabbed, repped, boomed, fluxed and ratta tat tat'd you to death holmes #forthewin Michael Epic is awesome!
first 3 words..."so lets say". that whole quote doesn't say he has done it but says if he did he deserves all his wp which he would have in that situation. 1 hypothetical quote from a single player out of thousands doesn't make your case
All Hail Legion
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Michael Arck
6093
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Posted - 2014.12.31 02:04:00 -
[112] - Quote
Clone D wrote: how we justify sending naked ladies
My favorite part of the post.
Archistrategos / The 7th Prime / Selah
*Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1243
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Posted - 2014.12.31 02:08:00 -
[113] - Quote
ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:first 3 words..."so lets say". that whole quote doesn't say he has done it but says if he did he deserves all his wp which he would have in that situation. 1 hypothetical quote from a single player out of thousands doesn't make your case
How about a few posts up:
P14GU3 wrote:Im a pretty decent logi and I have broke 7k like twice.. the BEST any logi in the community has done is 8k and some change, and that happens rarely.
I do not know of any shooter role that has ever seen 7k while strictly playing his/her role.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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Infine Sentinel
Better Hide R Die
753
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Posted - 2014.12.31 02:30:00 -
[114] - Quote
Clone D wrote:(foot soldiers top out in about the 3500 WP range)?
Wha.... What slayer manages that?
Local forum Cannibal.
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Kaze Eyrou
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1187
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Posted - 2014.12.31 02:48:00 -
[115] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:Clone D wrote:Build a cheaper suit.
'Valor' Logistics M-1
'Dren' Assault Rifle
Nanohive
KIN-012 Nanite Injector
BDR-2 Repair Tool
Militia Shield Extender Blueprint (x2)
Militia Armor Plates Blueprint (x2)
It will cost a little bit more without the BPO, but it is highly effective and cheap. I'm sure you could measure the diminishing returns of a proto suit over std/adv gear by performing a benefit/cost analysis. If you are going to post a fitting, post one without BPOs. Assume we are not willing to spend AUR. Also, make it in protofits so we know it would have the required CPU/PG. Also, two armor plates? You'll have eHP and move like a turtle on Valium. Logis are already slow to begin with. This fitting would get annihilated while attempting to rep anyone. I have used that fitting to rank #1 on several occasions. Modify it as you see fit, but the point is that you can make an effective logi suit for less than 90k ISK.
Care to try again without using Blueprints?
CB Vet // True Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou
Learning Coalition and RTG Mentor
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
1432
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Posted - 2014.12.31 02:59:00 -
[116] - Quote
WP envy got Bandwidth implemented, no doubt it will get logis nerfed.
Because, that's why.
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P14GU3
Savage Bullet
979
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Posted - 2014.12.31 03:11:00 -
[117] - Quote
Clone D wrote:ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:first 3 words..."so lets say". that whole quote doesn't say he has done it but says if he did he deserves all his wp which he would have in that situation. 1 hypothetical quote from a single player out of thousands doesn't make your case How about a few posts up: P14GU3 wrote:Im a pretty decent logi and I have broke 7k like twice.. the BEST any logi in the community has done is 8k and some change, and that happens rarely. I do not know of any shooter role that has ever seen 7k while strictly playing his/her role.
I know personally, my records are pre triage-cap/bandwidth. It is extremely difficult to break even 5k wp as a logi now. If you see someone break 5k, they were either boosting or having the game of their life (figuratively.)
Like I said, logi points are much more in line with slayers now. Triage points may still be a tad too much, but if they drop them, the cap needs to disappear as well.
I only play dust514ums now. It was always more fun than the actual game anyways.
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Kaze Eyrou
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1189
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Posted - 2014.12.31 03:25:00 -
[118] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Clone D wrote:Logi is a simpleton's role I know someone who won't be getting repped or resupplied anytime soon.
I think we need some slight gameplay changes to remind me...  
CB Vet // True Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou
Learning Coalition and RTG Mentor
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TritusX
PH4NT0M5
76
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Posted - 2014.12.31 03:35:00 -
[119] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Patrick57 wrote:killers get kills to show for their work. logis get wp. What's the problem here? Well, for one, WP directly influences SP, so this grants a character development advantage to one role over another.
Logi's need the WP for the outrageous SP investment???
Let the blood drip from my knife onto your wound that gapes from- wait there's no gore or blood in this game nvm
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1248
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Posted - 2014.12.31 03:59:00 -
[120] - Quote
Kaze Eyrou wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:Clone D wrote:Logi is a simpleton's role I know someone who won't be getting repped or resupplied anytime soon. I think we need some slight gameplay changes to remind me...
Ha ha ha. As if my team were working in my favor. I am used to playing both against the opponents as well as against my own team, while attempting to provide some level of support to them regardless of their disregard for team mates.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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Mejt0
Fat'Kids are Hard to Kidnap
639
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Posted - 2014.12.31 04:28:00 -
[121] - Quote
80% of logi job now is to hold R1 and sometimes pick up that fat ass in front of you.
Lets be honest, thats how it looks.
At the same time, i'm not saying that slaying is that much harder. But it requires more thinking.
Ps. Logi job isn't the hardest one.
For eg. Scout that needs to break through enemy lines and sabotage them needs to work harder than logi.
Also logi requires just as much sp investment as scout does.
Loyal to State. Led by Tibus Heth.
Ready for sacrafise [like Admiral Yakiya Tobil-Toba].
Ps. I have 2 minmatar slaves
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Boot Booter
Titans of Phoenix
1101
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Posted - 2014.12.31 04:41:00 -
[122] - Quote
I don't want to read all this rabble but all I'm saying is... Killstreak WP should def be a thing.
5 kills +100 wp
10 kills + 200 wp
Something..
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
5023
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Posted - 2014.12.31 07:10:00 -
[123] - Quote
ITT: the OP continues to QQ about the size of his *ahem* WP. BTW, you missed a minor point about cost. The suits may cost about the same, but EQ is not free. Little known fact.
Also, you are correct on one thing: it's not very hard to get out a rep tool and hold the button down.
The trick is staying alive.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Jack McReady
DUST University
Ivy League
1700
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 09:14:00 -
[124] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:ITT: the OP continues to QQ about the size of his *ahem* WP. BTW, you missed a minor point about cost. The suits may cost about the same, but EQ is not free. Little known fact.
Also, you are correct on one thing: it's not very hard to get out a rep tool and hold the button down.
The trick is staying alive.
staying alive in a logi is far easier because the activity you are involved in is less dangerous
I already posted my logi fit back a few pages, it is a WP printing machine and rarely died (if at all) because I was always staying atleast 25m out of harms way and repping people.
more WP means more SP, thus it is also prints SP. if you are not stupid and play carefully you wont go negative with this proto fit and collect 3k WP every match. |
Slave of MORTE
Eyniletti Rangers
Minmatar Republic
159
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 10:16:00 -
[125] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:Clone D wrote:Build a cheaper suit.
'Valor' Logistics M-1
'Dren' Assault Rifle
Nanohive
KIN-012 Nanite Injector
BDR-2 Repair Tool
Militia Shield Extender Blueprint (x2)
Militia Armor Plates Blueprint (x2)
It will cost a little bit more without the BPO, but it is highly effective and cheap. I'm sure you could measure the diminishing returns of a proto suit over std/adv gear by performing a benefit/cost analysis. If you are going to post a fitting, post one without BPOs. Assume we are not willing to spend AUR. Also, make it in protofits so we know it would have the required CPU/PG. Also, two armor plates? You'll have eHP and move like a turtle on Valium. Logis are already slow to begin with. This fitting would get annihilated while attempting to rep anyone. I have used that fitting to rank #1 on several occasions. Modify it as you see fit, but the point is that you can make an effective logi suit for less than 90k ISK.
Logis on average still cost more than assaults per fit
You can argue semantic of course
But in my fittings list where cost of fitting does not exist nor is it a worry
My adv minmatar assault and my adv amar assault cost 40 k exactly where as my adv amar logi and adv minmatar logi average 60 to 80 k per fitting
yes the role cam be incredibly easy in pubs ..as far as the actual logi..in goes
revive walk over press r1 get more wp than a kill
Repping hide in a corner holding r1
occasionally kill a scout who sneaks after you
Team firing ..shoot at what your teams shooting at for the assist or kill a steal ..(no logis do this anymore except the good ones )
Logis are slower than assaults they have less hp lower recovery ..which makes survivability harder
They aren't designed to he able to hold solid hp amounts while still holding a decent gun ..so in general killing in a good logi suit is harder
Most logis seem.to never pull Thier gun out ..like they don't even know what it is ..when they do pull it out they sit there looking at it like hmmm..does this thing have a safety ..while they get shot
Personally i kinda agree with the op that logi wp come to easy ..
I think ccp should give them a soft cap reset able by getting an assist
Kinda like the hard wp cap that you have to wait for or get a kill to reset . Ide like a function for logi that would force team firing and more gun active logi play styles
For example if every 750 wp I had to stop n get an assist to continue gaining wp it wouldn't phase me at all like any good logi I'm always team firing and focus firing enemies
But scrubby logis would be forced to use Thier gun and get better with it
Yet another slave of Mortedeamor
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P14GU3
Savage Bullet
979
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 10:22:00 -
[126] - Quote
Mejt0 wrote:80% of logi job now is to hold R1 and sometimes pick up that fat ass in front of you.
Lets be honest, thats how it looks.
At the same time, i'm not saying that slaying is that much harder. But it requires more thinking.
Ps. Logi job isn't the hardest one.
For eg. Scout that needs to break through enemy lines and sabotage them needs to work harder than logi.
Also logi requires just as much sp investment as scout does.
TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Did this guy just say scout was the hardest class? Excuse me for a sec...
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
Ok im better. For a sec I thought this guy said that easy-mode scouts with their built in wallhacks and near undetectable status was hard-mode..
Wait, what? He did say that?
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Im now officially done with this thread. Argueing with clueless people is just a waste of my time...
I only play dust514ums now. It was always more fun than the actual game anyways.
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Alena Ventrallis
Vengeance Unbound
2368
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 10:41:00 -
[127] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:
staying alive in a logi is far easier because the activity you are involved in is less dangerous.
False.
Your job is to be in the same fight with everyone else. There's no point in being a logi away from the fight; they don't need your reps or your ammo or your needles out in the middle of nowhere by yourself. They need you up front with the slayers. You must be there, picking up people, repping them, and feeding them ammo, all the while having the same risk of death that they have.
What makes it more dangerous is that you are in the fight without focusing on killing the enemy. Your keeping everyone up and running, thus not shooting, thus not able to defend yourself. You also cost more than the other suits because you pay out the nose for your equipment. In addition, you have less health, less regen, less speed, higher profile, and no sidearm compared to your assault brethren. Finally, you are the primary target for the enemy, because you re the entire reason they haven't won the fight. The sooner they can kill the guy keeping everyone alive, the sooner they can end the fight.
Do not go gentle into that good night;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
6105
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 11:26:00 -
[128] - Quote
the idea that a logi requires less thought is hilarious.
A good logi just obeys the rotation. a GREAT logi makes an entire squad (not a pet fatty) almost invulnerable.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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RayRay James
Titans of Phoenix
853
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 13:23:00 -
[129] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:RayRay James wrote:Leadfoot10 wrote:I agree with the premise of the OP, if not some of the details.
My observations: WP are awarded at too high a rate for logis. Some WP dialback is warranted. I would prefer it is done so by simply lowering some of the WP values rather than a timed turnoff like was implemented for WP coming from rep tools.
Bottom line: Logis take a great deal of skill to play well, and they increase the effectiveness of their teammates, and they deserve to have this behavior rewarded with WP. However, they are getting too many WP, so the numbers simply need to be dialed back a bit, IMO. They've been slowly doing that. Look what they just did to needles, which was a needed change as there was no reason to run the better needles except in PC (which it's still looked down upon by some teammates, even when I save their 230K isk suit... f##kers) Because needles are counterproductive in PC, where the objective is to win. Needling someone is wasting time that could be used to be shooting someone or hacking something or killing uplinks or laying uplinks. Whoever you just needled would have come back 3 seconds later regardless, with fullhealth/ammo, at a location of their choosing that might desperately need help. Its a double waste that is counter productive to the goal of PC: to win the match. In pubs the real goal is to have fun and to go ISK positive, so the needle is cool here. I dont like it at all but thats just the way it is in PC.
That's what I'm always told too about PC, until I hear "Anyone got a needle?" over comms, then they're suddenly grateful for the fact that I went against the grain.
All of your points are valid, however, but if they don't want/need to be picked they can now just not ask to be revived and respawn at a place of their choosing. |
Mejt0
Fat'Kids are Hard to Kidnap
645
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 14:11:00 -
[130] - Quote
P14GU3 wrote:Mejt0 wrote:80% of logi job now is to hold R1 and sometimes pick up that fat ass in front of you.
Lets be honest, thats how it looks.
At the same time, i'm not saying that slaying is that much harder. But it requires more thinking.
Ps. Logi job isn't the hardest one.
For eg. Scout that needs to break through enemy lines and sabotage them needs to work harder than logi.
Also logi requires just as much sp investment as scout does. TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Did this guy just say scout was the hardest class? Excuse me for a sec... BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! Ok im better. For a sec I thought this guy said that easy-mode scouts with their built in wallhacks and near undetectable status was hard-mode.. Wait, what? He did say that? BAHAHAHAHAHAHAH Im now officially done with this thread. Argueing with clueless people is just a waste of my time...
Ok if it's easy mode, pick up scout [In PC or in qsynced FW] , get behind enemy lines then destroy Every pice of eqiupment you'll find without being shoot even once. Nor even spooted.
Then jump in between sentiniels and kill their logi and flux him. Escape from this situation and then compare all this to holding R1 behind 1500hp fat ass
Ps. All this in baerly 300ehp minja.
Loyal to State. Led by Tibus Heth.
Ready for sacrafise [like Admiral Yakiya Tobil-Toba].
Ps. I have 2 minmatar slaves
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Mejt0
Fat'Kids are Hard to Kidnap
645
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 14:24:00 -
[131] - Quote
About fittings cots.
One guy earlier said that adv assault costs 40k around.
My adv amarr assault costs me almost 100k.
Logi is more expensive at proto.
Even then assaults costs around 170-200k.
Ps. Don't forget that other suits also have eq slots. Not only logi carry injectors/links etc.
Loyal to State. Led by Tibus Heth.
Ready for sacrafise [like Admiral Yakiya Tobil-Toba].
Ps. I have 2 minmatar slaves
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Orion Sanjeet
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
243
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 15:10:00 -
[132] - Quote
Clone D wrote:abdullah muzaffar wrote:...Do you even know how expensive logisuits are? Even my adv suit costs 95k, and thats cause i sacrifice hp, speed, and offense just to support my team. It is always the logi that gets shot down first, and the one to receive the least help. Build a cheaper suit. I can easily rank #1 with an 8460 ISK Triage fitting: 'Valor' Logistics M-1 'Dren' Assault Rifle nanohive KIN-012 Nanite Injector BDR-2 Repair Tool Militia Shield Extender Blueprint (x2) Militia Armor Plates Blueprint (x2) It will cost a little bit more without the BPO, but it is highly effective and cheap. I'm sure you could measure the diminishing returns of a proto suit over std/adv gear by performing a benefit/cost analysis.
If that is your suit, just stay in your merc quarters cause you aren't helping anyone. Proto hives, links, and rep tool or bust, on the suit you can skimp, but not the gear.
Ebola makes me feel all warm and squishy inside.
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Jay Westen
Sky-FIRE
143
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 15:28:00 -
[133] - Quote
Alright, I'll agree with the OP and the guy who said logi's are simpletons role... Only if you play them the way you describe. Yes, you can walk behind a heavy leashed and farm warpoints. But you're honestly just a no-talent farmer. Assault, you could just run in fire your weapon and hope for the best and pray you kill stuff. Scouts, please. cloak, decloak shotgun, recloak run. rinse and repeat.
As a dedicated logi myself, I rarely stick to a heavy, heals and nano's for all is my philosophy. If you're down on armor I'll rep you. I'll run you down and find you and rep you. I'm the guy who runs across open field in the middle of a firefight and throws down a rep hive and revives you. I'll run in and hack the objective while everyone is fighting around me. I don't think you realize when a hack goes off while you're fighting, the other team loses their spawn. Every situation is different and requires prioritization.
Oh and all this goes to everyone but the people saying logi's are simpletons. Ya'll just made the list. Best of luck to you without reps. |
Bright Steel
Horizons' Edge
Proficiency V.
714
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 15:32:00 -
[134] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:the idea that a logi requires less thought is hilarious.
A good logi just obeys the rotation. a GREAT logi makes an entire squad (not a pet fatty) almost invulnerable.
I agree.
I have pulled out my logi suite half way through an ambush where we were being pushed back and was able to reienfore our line with reps, hives, and my needle which total turned the game around.
A competent squad holding a line with a logi reinforcing them are damn near invaluable
Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
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Aiwha Bait
Demonic Cowboys
45
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 15:38:00 -
[135] - Quote
Mejt0 wrote:80% of logi job now is to hold R1 and sometimes pick up that fat ass in front of you.
Lets be honest, thats how it looks.
At the same time, i'm not saying that slaying is that much harder. But it requires more thinking.
Ps. Logi job isn't the hardest one.
For eg. Scout that needs to break through enemy lines and sabotage them needs to work harder than logi.
Also logi requires just as much sp investment as scout does.
But we have to keep up with the heavies, avoid getting shot (as everybody shoots the logi first), know when & where to drop equipment, know when & where to pick people up.
And Logi requires a hell of a lot more SP investment than scout. :) Nanocircuitry, tool, needle, suit, armor modules, and electronics & engineering. Might have missed a few things though.
"Nothing + Nothing = Nothing. Now eat your bribery...err...I mean your breakfast, son." - Fred G. Sanford
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Aiwha Bait
Demonic Cowboys
46
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 15:53:00 -
[136] - Quote
Orion Sanjeet wrote:Clone D wrote:abdullah muzaffar wrote:...Do you even know how expensive logisuits are? Even my adv suit costs 95k, and thats cause i sacrifice hp, speed, and offense just to support my team. It is always the logi that gets shot down first, and the one to receive the least help. Build a cheaper suit. I can easily rank #1 with an 8460 ISK Triage fitting: 'Valor' Logistics M-1 'Dren' Assault Rifle nanohive KIN-012 Nanite Injector BDR-2 Repair Tool Militia Shield Extender Blueprint (x2) Militia Armor Plates Blueprint (x2) It will cost a little bit more without the BPO, but it is highly effective and cheap. I'm sure you could measure the diminishing returns of a proto suit over std/adv gear by performing a benefit/cost analysis. If that is your suit, just stay in your merc quarters cause you aren't helping anyone. Proto hives, links, and rep tool or bust, on the suit you can skimp, but not the gear.
Yep. Totally agree. You're not doing jack sh*t with that BDR-2, and standard hives. Proto suit for maximum equipment slots (but that equals more logi WPs, so ignore if you want). Six Kin tool for 2 streams (i.e. more WP, but since you're against logis getting so many WPs, you may wanna ignore that), basic needle (more to rep when you pick up the fallen comrade (More WPs, but again ignore because of what you believe), and you should carry Wyrikomi-thingy rep hives and Ishukone ammo hives (again, maximizing logi WPs, but ignore since you hate us). So if you implement all those changes, you're set to become the greatest godd*mn logi in New Eden. Unfortunately, because of your utter hate and douche baggery, you wont use these tips to be a better logi. :/ Your loss.
"Nothing + Nothing = Nothing. Now eat your bribery...err...I mean your breakfast, son." - Fred G. Sanford
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1252
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 16:06:00 -
[137] - Quote
Aiwha Bait wrote:Orion Sanjeet wrote:Clone D wrote:abdullah muzaffar wrote:...Do you even know how expensive logisuits are? Even my adv suit costs 95k, and thats cause i sacrifice hp, speed, and offense just to support my team. It is always the logi that gets shot down first, and the one to receive the least help. Build a cheaper suit. I can easily rank #1 with an 8460 ISK Triage fitting: 'Valor' Logistics M-1 'Dren' Assault Rifle nanohive KIN-012 Nanite Injector BDR-2 Repair Tool Militia Shield Extender Blueprint (x2) Militia Armor Plates Blueprint (x2) It will cost a little bit more without the BPO, but it is highly effective and cheap. I'm sure you could measure the diminishing returns of a proto suit over std/adv gear by performing a benefit/cost analysis. If that is your suit, just stay in your merc quarters cause you aren't helping anyone. Proto hives, links, and rep tool or bust, on the suit you can skimp, but not the gear. Yep. Totally agree. You're not doing jack sh*t with that BDR-2, and standard hives. Proto suit for maximum equipment slots (but that equals more logi WPs, so ignore if you want). Six Kin tool for 2 streams (i.e. more WP, but since you're against logis getting so many WPs, you may wanna ignore that), basic needle (more to rep when you pick up the fallen comrade (More WPs, but again ignore because of what you believe), and you should carry Wyrikomi-thingy rep hives and Ishukone ammo hives (again, maximizing logi WPs, but ignore since you hate us). So if you implement all those changes, you're set to become the greatest godd*mn logi in New Eden. Unfortunately, because of your utter hate and douche baggery, you wont use these tips to be a better logi. :/ Your loss.
This thread is about the minimal effort it takes to earn WP as a logi.
It is not about the ideal logi build, and the standard to which you hold yourself and others.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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Bright Steel
Horizons' Edge
Proficiency V.
714
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 16:13:00 -
[138] - Quote
Slayers should get 25 WP per cycle of damage on a red and 35 for kill assist and 70 for kills
100WP for head shots, 25WP for terminating down clones.
Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
1842
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 16:17:00 -
[139] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Aiwha Bait wrote:Orion Sanjeet wrote:Clone D wrote:abdullah muzaffar wrote:...Do you even know how expensive logisuits are? Even my adv suit costs 95k, and thats cause i sacrifice hp, speed, and offense just to support my team. It is always the logi that gets shot down first, and the one to receive the least help. Build a cheaper suit. I can easily rank #1 with an 8460 ISK Triage fitting: 'Valor' Logistics M-1 'Dren' Assault Rifle nanohive KIN-012 Nanite Injector BDR-2 Repair Tool Militia Shield Extender Blueprint (x2) Militia Armor Plates Blueprint (x2) It will cost a little bit more without the BPO, but it is highly effective and cheap. I'm sure you could measure the diminishing returns of a proto suit over std/adv gear by performing a benefit/cost analysis. If that is your suit, just stay in your merc quarters cause you aren't helping anyone. Proto hives, links, and rep tool or bust, on the suit you can skimp, but not the gear. Yep. Totally agree. You're not doing jack sh*t with that BDR-2, and standard hives. Proto suit for maximum equipment slots (but that equals more logi WPs, so ignore if you want). Six Kin tool for 2 streams (i.e. more WP, but since you're against logis getting so many WPs, you may wanna ignore that), basic needle (more to rep when you pick up the fallen comrade (More WPs, but again ignore because of what you believe), and you should carry Wyrikomi-thingy rep hives and Ishukone ammo hives (again, maximizing logi WPs, but ignore since you hate us). So if you implement all those changes, you're set to become the greatest godd*mn logi in New Eden. Unfortunately, because of your utter hate and douche baggery, you wont use these tips to be a better logi. :/ Your loss. This thread is about the minimal effort it takes to earn WP as a logi. It is not about the ideal logi build, and the standard to which you hold yourself and others.
As opposed to the minimal effort to point your aim assisted damage modded proto weapon at a standard suit and melt it in a sec.
All Hail Legion
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1252
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 16:19:00 -
[140] - Quote
ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:Clone D wrote:This thread is about the minimal effort it takes to earn WP as a logi.
It is not about the ideal logi build, and the standard to which you hold yourself and others. As opposed to the minimal effort to point your aim assisted damage modded proto weapon at a standard suit and melt it in a sec.
The evidence lies in the match results, bro.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
666
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 16:35:00 -
[141] - Quote
There are many minimal things players can do to earn WP, it doesn't mean they (you) are doing them well.
Any idiot can use a rep tool, any idiot can use an HMG , any idiot can cloak, any idiot can shoot a rifle, it doesnt make all of thee idiots any good at being logis, heavies, scouts or assaults.
Getting first place once upon a time means nothing.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
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Orion Sanjeet
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
243
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 16:37:00 -
[142] - Quote
You know what, how about we change the leaderboard so that most kills is on top, let logis keep their wp and payout. Either way clone d, you still won't tip the leaderboard.
Ebola makes me feel all warm and squishy inside.
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VikingKong iBUN
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
333
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 16:51:00 -
[143] - Quote
Add extra WP for multi-kills, revenge, ending enemy kill streaks - stuff like that.
Give more WP to slayers. No need to touch Logis. |
Vaibhav Ganesh
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
33
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 16:57:00 -
[144] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:You may not appreciate my spawns, ammo, reps and rez's but plenty of others do so I'll continue to to serve them up so my team has a better chance of winning. I appreciate it. I even perform the role myself when needed. My question remains the same. Why are logis paid so many warpoints? The general consensus is that nobody wants to do the job so it requires more incentive.
You get 90 warpoints for 1 revive with a PRO needle right? And, If you get a kill even with a militia weapon it is always 50. It is never 20 for militia,30 for basic, 40 for adv and 50 for PRO. Why?
LFC
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Vaibhav Ganesh
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
33
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 16:58:00 -
[145] - Quote
Orion Sanjeet wrote:You know what, how about we change the leaderboard so that most kills is on top, let logis keep their wp and payout. Either way clone d, you still won't tip the leaderboard.
Lol, So true.
LFC
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Vaibhav Ganesh
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
35
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 16:59:00 -
[146] - Quote
Mejt0 wrote:80% of logi job now is to hold R1 and sometimes pick up that fat ass in front of you.
Lets be honest, thats how it looks.
At the same time, i'm not saying that slaying is that much harder. But it requires more thinking.
Ps. Logi job isn't the hardest one.
For eg. Scout that needs to break through enemy lines and sabotage them needs to work harder than logi.
Also logi requires just as much sp investment as scout does.
Nah sis, u r wrong. I made a perfect fit with 6 million sp fr scouts while fr a logi even 10 mill aint enough
LFC
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1253
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Posted - 2014.12.31 17:00:00 -
[147] - Quote
Vaibhav Ganesh wrote:Clone D wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:You may not appreciate my spawns, ammo, reps and rez's but plenty of others do so I'll continue to to serve them up so my team has a better chance of winning. I appreciate it. I even perform the role myself when needed. My question remains the same. Why are logis paid so many warpoints? The general consensus is that nobody wants to do the job so it requires more incentive. You get 90 warpoints for 1 revive with a PRO needle right? And, If you get a kill even with a militia weapon it is always 50. It is never 20 for militia,30 for basic, 40 for adv and 50 for PRO. Why?
Agreed. Kill payouts are atrocious. If you kill a 250 hp scout, you get the same payout as if you kill a 1500 hp sentinel. If you kill with a MLT, you get the same payout as if you kill with a Six Kin. The rewards do not reflect the effort that goes into the kill.
The community has generally agreed that a kill is a kill is a kill = +50. I disagree, but whatever.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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Vaibhav Ganesh
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
35
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 17:02:00 -
[148] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Vaibhav Ganesh wrote:Clone D wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:You may not appreciate my spawns, ammo, reps and rez's but plenty of others do so I'll continue to to serve them up so my team has a better chance of winning. I appreciate it. I even perform the role myself when needed. My question remains the same. Why are logis paid so many warpoints? The general consensus is that nobody wants to do the job so it requires more incentive. You get 90 warpoints for 1 revive with a PRO needle right? And, If you get a kill even with a militia weapon it is always 50. It is never 20 for militia,30 for basic, 40 for adv and 50 for PRO. Why? Agreed. Kill payouts are atrocious. If you kill a 250 hp scout, you get the same payout as if you kill a 1500 hp sentinel. If you kill with a MLT, you get the same payout as if you kill with a Six Kin. The rewards do not reflect the effort that goes into the kill. The community has generally agreed that a kill is a kill is a kill = +50. I disagree, but whatever.
You are right,but see my point. If we use a mlt nano injector we get 30 points, while you get 50. why?
LFC
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1253
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 17:07:00 -
[149] - Quote
Vaibhav Ganesh wrote:Clone D wrote:Vaibhav Ganesh wrote:Clone D wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:You may not appreciate my spawns, ammo, reps and rez's but plenty of others do so I'll continue to to serve them up so my team has a better chance of winning. I appreciate it. I even perform the role myself when needed. My question remains the same. Why are logis paid so many warpoints? The general consensus is that nobody wants to do the job so it requires more incentive. You get 90 warpoints for 1 revive with a PRO needle right? And, If you get a kill even with a militia weapon it is always 50. It is never 20 for militia,30 for basic, 40 for adv and 50 for PRO. Why? Agreed. Kill payouts are atrocious. If you kill a 250 hp scout, you get the same payout as if you kill a 1500 hp sentinel. If you kill with a MLT, you get the same payout as if you kill with a Six Kin. The rewards do not reflect the effort that goes into the kill. The community has generally agreed that a kill is a kill is a kill = +50. I disagree, but whatever. You are right,but see my point. If we use a mlt nano injector we get 30 points, while you get 50. why?
It would be the equivalent of my getting 30 points as an assault if I did 30% damage to the enemy. Shooters don't get that. Nanite injectors give a % of health back. You don't get points specifically for doing a % of damage. It's all or nothing with damage (except for assists).
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
5607
|
Posted - 2014.12.31 17:07:00 -
[150] - Quote
In pathetic matches it's pretty common for a Logi to be the only ones putting up big WP, but in throw-down fights it's common for the other people in the squad to put up WPs as well. Getting kills around objectives, nanohives and uplinks, injectors, etc are not only utilized by logis.
It's just not that common to have throw-downs in pubs. I think it's more related to crappy payouts keeping people from going for the win.
Low payouts ensure that only the best are running decent gear.
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Vaibhav Ganesh
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
36
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Posted - 2014.12.31 17:09:00 -
[151] - Quote
My PRO logi costed me about 200,000 isk per battle. With my alt, which is an PRO assault, the fit costs abt 130,000. Wat abt that?
LFC
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SteelheadPep
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
159
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Posted - 2014.12.31 17:34:00 -
[152] - Quote
Clone D wrote:abdullah muzaffar wrote:...Do you even know how expensive logisuits are? Even my adv suit costs 95k, and thats cause i sacrifice hp, speed, and offense just to support my team. It is always the logi that gets shot down first, and the one to receive the least help. Build a cheaper suit. I can easily rank #1 with an 8460 ISK Triage fitting: 'Valor' Logistics M-1 'Dren' Assault Rifle nanohive KIN-012 Nanite Injector BDR-2 Repair Tool Militia Shield Extender Blueprint (x2) Militia Armor Plates Blueprint (x2) It will cost a little bit more without the BPO, but it is highly effective and cheap. I'm sure you could measure the diminishing returns of a proto suit over std/adv gear by performing a benefit/cost analysis.
I will take the bait, your suit is good for running solo in ambush and hiding like a little dog. The merits for having a real logi in your sqaud have been given.I would like to thank the mercs who have come to our defense against such troll posts. |
Dubya Guy
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
152
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Posted - 2014.12.31 17:35:00 -
[153] - Quote
As I stated in an earlier post in this thread, it is unfortunate that the factor "Warpoints" serves double duty. It would make for a much cleaner discussion if "team assist points" were tallied alongside K/D and a formula to combine the two provided ranking on the board.
By basing your argument on Warpoints alone, you are ignoring the prestige/reputational/respect value of a good KDR. Those who provide team support sacrifice this opportunity for respect by:
Making themselves an easy target in several ways
Using tools and equipment instead of killing weapons
In doing so, they sacrifice their own KDR, while at the same time IMPROVING everyone else's KDR. And this is done ANONYMOUSLY without the equivalent of "who killed who" messages.
In a game most still consider to be a "shooter", anything, no matter how small, that improves a player's KDR is precious. At present, Warpoints are the only way to allow someone who dedicates themselves to the support role to gain any recognition for it. If I go 0/4 and get 400 warpoints, I am a scrub and no one knows how I got those points. If I go 4/0 and get 400 warpoints, I am efficient, have a marketable KDR, and 31 other players have seen my name during battle.
This isn't the only reason why this thread is off target, but it is one thing that just keeps getting overlooked in comments. Warpoints is an insufficient measure and therefore it is unhelpful to base the debate on how "easy" they are to obtain for someone who predominantly uses one style of play over another.
FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
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Orion Sanjeet
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
246
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Posted - 2014.12.31 17:51:00 -
[154] - Quote
Also, as far as kills go, take a page from Loadout, if you destroy 90% of some ones health, you get 90% of the points for the "assist". Increase the points for a kill, 50p for standard and below, 75p for adv, and 100p for proto and up, implement the kill assist feature from loadout and that will help with the slayer wp situation.
Ebola makes me feel all warm and squishy inside.
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1253
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Posted - 2014.12.31 18:03:00 -
[155] - Quote
Dubya Guy wrote:As I stated in an earlier post in this thread, it is unfortunate that the factor "Warpoints" serves double duty. It would make for a much cleaner discussion if "team assist points" were tallied alongside K/D and a formula to combine the two provided ranking on the board. By basing your argument on Warpoints alone, you are ignoring the prestige/reputational/respect value of a good KDR. Those who provide team support sacrifice this opportunity for respect by: Making themselves an easy target in several waysUsing tools and equipment instead of killing weaponsIn doing so, they sacrifice their own KDR, while at the same time IMPROVING everyone else's KDR. And this is done ANONYMOUSLY without the equivalent of "who killed who" messages. In a game most still consider to be a "shooter", anything, no matter how small, that improves a player's KDR is precious. At present, Warpoints are the only way to allow someone who dedicates themselves to the support role to gain any recognition for it. If I go 0/4 and get 400 warpoints, I am a scrub and no one knows how I got those points. If I go 4/0 and get 400 warpoints, I am efficient, have a marketable KDR, and 31 other players have seen my name during battle. This isn't the only reason why this thread is off target, but it is one thing that just keeps getting overlooked in comments. Warpoints is an insufficient measure and therefore it is unhelpful to base the debate on how "easy" they are to obtain for someone who predominantly uses one style of play over another.
This thread is exactly on target, and I have specifically said exactly what I intended to with the exact effect that I wanted.
WPs are not only a social reference. They directly affect skill points. Excessive WP given to one role over another allows faster character development for the favored role.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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Dubya Guy
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
152
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Posted - 2014.12.31 18:20:00 -
[156] - Quote
Clone D wrote:WPs are not only a social reference. They directly affect skill points. Excessive WP given to one role over another allows faster character development for the favored role.
I would concur with this statement, minus judgmental terms and adding back in my point from above:
Quote:WPs are not only a social reference. They directly affect skill points. WP given to one role over another allows faster character development for that role. However, lack of a mechanism for recognizing team support effort discourages players from utilizing that same role.
I don't think this is an ideal balance of forces, but there is a push/pull in effect which you should not ignore.
FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
670
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Posted - 2014.12.31 18:38:00 -
[157] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Dubya Guy wrote:As I stated in an earlier post in this thread, it is unfortunate that the factor "Warpoints" serves double duty. It would make for a much cleaner discussion if "team assist points" were tallied alongside K/D and a formula to combine the two provided ranking on the board. By basing your argument on Warpoints alone, you are ignoring the prestige/reputational/respect value of a good KDR. Those who provide team support sacrifice this opportunity for respect by: Making themselves an easy target in several waysUsing tools and equipment instead of killing weaponsIn doing so, they sacrifice their own KDR, while at the same time IMPROVING everyone else's KDR. And this is done ANONYMOUSLY without the equivalent of "who killed who" messages. In a game most still consider to be a "shooter", anything, no matter how small, that improves a player's KDR is precious. At present, Warpoints are the only way to allow someone who dedicates themselves to the support role to gain any recognition for it. If I go 0/4 and get 400 warpoints, I am a scrub and no one knows how I got those points. If I go 4/0 and get 400 warpoints, I am efficient, have a marketable KDR, and 31 other players have seen my name during battle. This isn't the only reason why this thread is off target, but it is one thing that just keeps getting overlooked in comments. Warpoints is an insufficient measure and therefore it is unhelpful to base the debate on how "easy" they are to obtain for someone who predominantly uses one style of play over another. This thread is exactly on target, and I have specifically said exactly what I intended to with the exact effect that I wanted. WPs are not only a social reference. They directly affect skill points. Excessive WP given to one role over another allows faster character development for the favored role.
Even if i subscrbied to this line of reeassonsing (I don't, its up to the player to earn WP/ 750 k cap etc) i could argue that logi and assault core skill trees are almost identical (suit, gun, sidearm if amarr logi, core skills), but the Logi needs to invest several million more, (Nanohives, Uplinks, Reptools, Scanners). Maybe the Slayer needs Nanohives, and hell, i'll give them to you. Still need several million more SP than a slayer to be a good logi.
Logi may get more WP which may = more SP than slayers
Yet
Logi SP sink > the slayers
so there you go, balance.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
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Bright Steel
Horizons' Edge
Proficiency V.
715
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Posted - 2014.12.31 18:49:00 -
[158] - Quote
I prefer a balanced approach for my play style of slaying, dropping hives or links, and hacking which yields great WP and satisfaction.
But I think Clone D is just bored and looking for an argument
Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
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Mejt0
Fat'Kids are Hard to Kidnap
648
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Posted - 2014.12.31 19:13:00 -
[159] - Quote
Vaibhav Ganesh wrote:My PRO logi costed me about 200,000 isk per battle. With my alt, which is an PRO assault, the fit costs abt 130,000. Wat abt that?
My ak.0 assault costs me +200k isks.
Your assault is fitted poorly. Logi as well.
Ps. Guns [and grenade] + eq = +130k isks
Suit + modules = another +100k isks.
Loyal to State. Led by Tibus Heth.
Ready for sacrafise [like Admiral Yakiya Tobil-Toba].
Ps. I have 2 minmatar slaves
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1256
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Posted - 2014.12.31 19:23:00 -
[160] - Quote
Dubya Guy wrote:Clone D wrote:WPs are not only a social reference. They directly affect skill points. Excessive WP given to one role over another allows faster character development for the favored role. I would concur with this statement, minus judgmental terms and adding back in my point from above: Quote:WPs are not only a social reference. They directly affect skill points. WP given to one role over another allows faster character development for that role. However, lack of a mechanism for recognizing team support effort discourages players from utilizing that same role. I don't think this is an ideal balance of forces, but there is a push/pull in effect which you should not ignore.
For social recognition, perhaps we need some sort of reputation counter, so every time you help a team member, you get +X reputation points depending on the kind of aid you provided.
This could easily distinguish helpful mercenaries above the rest hierarchically.
Perhaps people could transfer/donate their own reputation points to you if you give them a tutorial or they think you are outstanding in some way. Maybe people could send you an MVP +1 reputation point to recognize your effort during a battle (available only in the match results or last battle screen).
Because WP does affect character development, it may be in our best interest to separate the concerns of social recognition and war points.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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Mejt0
Fat'Kids are Hard to Kidnap
648
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Posted - 2014.12.31 19:30:00 -
[161] - Quote
Vaibhav Ganesh wrote:Mejt0 wrote:80% of logi job now is to hold R1 and sometimes pick up that fat ass in front of you.
Lets be honest, thats how it looks.
At the same time, i'm not saying that slaying is that much harder. But it requires more thinking.
Ps. Logi job isn't the hardest one.
For eg. Scout that needs to break through enemy lines and sabotage them needs to work harder than logi.
Also logi requires just as much sp investment as scout does. Nah sis, u r wrong. I made a perfect fit with 6 million sp fr scouts while fr a logi even 10 mill aint enough
Amount of SP needed to fulfil scout role [in this case Minja],
[i'll add everything].. and here's the number : 17,716,202 sp.
That's without counting prof skill, armor plate/reps upgrades, other eq, some other skills to fully fulfil that role [like swarms for AV].
Ps. Skills that i counted to achive this amount of sp : Dropsuit Command > Minmatar Light > Minmatar Scout
Dropsuit Upgrades > Armor/Shields Upgrades > Shields Extenders > Biotics > KinCat > Core Upgrades > Cloak > Uplinks > Electronics [all components] > Engineering > Hacking > Weaponry > Explosives > Grenadier [lvl 1] > Light/Sidearm operation > CR > NK >
Loyal to State. Led by Tibus Heth.
Ready for sacrafise [like Admiral Yakiya Tobil-Toba].
Ps. I have 2 minmatar slaves
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Orion Sanjeet
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
246
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Posted - 2014.12.31 19:56:00 -
[162] - Quote
I don't need reputation, I need the isk that comes from high WPs. Because do you know who doesn't get revived? The logi.
Ebola makes me feel all warm and squishy inside.
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1256
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Posted - 2014.12.31 20:04:00 -
[163] - Quote
Orion Sanjeet wrote:I don't need reputation, I need the isk that comes from high WPs. Because do you know who doesn't get revived? The logi.
Just as I couldn't care less about K/D or W/L.
I was suggesting a reputation counter in addition to WP, not as a substitution for WP. This may suit the need of those who play a role for a sense of identity within the community.
WP needs to be equally accessible to all roles when performing the key function of that role, so that one role is not favored above another in terms of character development.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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P14GU3
Savage Bullet
981
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Posted - 2014.12.31 20:10:00 -
[164] - Quote
Mejt0 wrote:Vaibhav Ganesh wrote:Mejt0 wrote:80% of logi job now is to hold R1 and sometimes pick up that fat ass in front of you.
Lets be honest, thats how it looks.
At the same time, i'm not saying that slaying is that much harder. But it requires more thinking.
Ps. Logi job isn't the hardest one.
For eg. Scout that needs to break through enemy lines and sabotage them needs to work harder than logi.
Also logi requires just as much sp investment as scout does. Nah sis, u r wrong. I made a perfect fit with 6 million sp fr scouts while fr a logi even 10 mill aint enough Amount of SP needed to fulfil scout role [in this case Minja], [i'll add everything].. and here's the number : 17,716,202 sp. That's without counting prof skill, armor plate/reps upgrades, other eq, some other skills to fully fulfil that role [like swarms for AV]. Ps. Skills that i counted to achive this amount of sp : Dropsuit Command > Minmatar Light > Minmatar Scout Dropsuit Upgrades > Armor/Shields Upgrades > Shields Extenders > Biotics > KinCat > Core Upgrades > Cloak > Uplinks > Electronics [all components] > Engineering > Hacking > Weaponry > Explosives > Grenadier [lvl 1] > Light/Sidearm operation > CR > NK >
I was over 20m SP before I completed all my cores, plus weapon/modules and equipment for my logi. Logi suits have more slots than any other class. My PC fit logi costs about 220k, my PC scout? about 180k. So 40k difference per death. I die WAY more in my logi. Like I said, scouts are easy mode. Cloak, flank, and destroy. If you can't win with a scout you need to find another game...
Edit: you are also using the worst scout. Get in a GK.0 and tell me its not easy mode.
I only play dust514ums now. It was always more fun than the actual game anyways.
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
672
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Posted - 2015.01.01 03:39:00 -
[165] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Orion Sanjeet wrote:I don't need reputation, I need the isk that comes from high WPs. Because do you know who doesn't get revived? The logi. Just as I couldn't care less about K/D or W/L. I was suggesting a reputation counter in addition to WP, not as a substitution for WP. This may suit the need of those who play a role for a sense of identity within the community. WP needs to be equally accessible to all roles when performing the key function of that role, so that one role is not favored above another in terms of character development.
I disagree with you on most every thing in this thread except this, paritally. I dont have much sympathy for logis who whine bout KD. We already have a WP leader board, and kd means jack. I can snipe a Stimatch and get a kd in the double figures. A posiitive KD for an ADS pilot means zero if he cant avoid getting killed every three matches, because then he cant afford to fly. Besides, a logi knows full welll what he's getting into, any one who judges a logit byt kd really ouht to **** off.
Reputations aside from AUR loyalty is a good idea, how ever, as long as you think WP and SP is accesible only to logis then your still lacking a basic understanding of 514.
That basic understanding is, there is only a finite set of SP anybody can earn, and the amount of WP one player can earn has f**K all to do with what another player can earn. Somebody providing reps and ammo doesnt stop me from killing 20 red dots, hell it helps to enable me to do it. I get to kill more an earn WP to develop my character, he/she is is investing much more sp to delvelop his. We both win. Biut if ou think providing reps gets you more more WP than shooting people and you actively avoid using a rep tool, then its a sad day for you.
I'm in favor of buffs rather than nerfing anything and lets see, right now the Killer gets 25 wp kill assist, 50 wp per kill, 60 wp per head shot at +25% WP to anything near an objective, pus any WP from the choice of equipment, be it a max + 90 needle,rep tool wp +15 intel kill assist or +10 per team ressupy.
How to make up for the other two equipment the killer activley refuses to carry huh?
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1260
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Posted - 2015.01.01 05:07:00 -
[166] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:[quote=Clone D]How to make up for the other two equipment the killer activley refuses to carry huh?
Well, if a logi gets points for healing x HP, then a shooter could get points for damaging. I suppose a few extra WP for doing x damage would boost the WP gain of a shooter significantly.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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Mejt0
Fat'Kids are Hard to Kidnap
648
|
Posted - 2015.01.01 05:44:00 -
[167] - Quote
P14GU3 wrote:Mejt0 wrote:Vaibhav Ganesh wrote:Mejt0 wrote:80% of logi job now is to hold R1 and sometimes pick up that fat ass in front of you.
Lets be honest, thats how it looks.
At the same time, i'm not saying that slaying is that much harder. But it requires more thinking.
Ps. Logi job isn't the hardest one.
For eg. Scout that needs to break through enemy lines and sabotage them needs to work harder than logi.
Also logi requires just as much sp investment as scout does. Nah sis, u r wrong. I made a perfect fit with 6 million sp fr scouts while fr a logi even 10 mill aint enough Amount of SP needed to fulfil scout role [in this case Minja], [i'll add everything].. and here's the number : 17,716,202 sp. That's without counting prof skill, armor plate/reps upgrades, other eq, some other skills to fully fulfil that role [like swarms for AV]. Ps. Skills that i counted to achive this amount of sp : Dropsuit Command > Minmatar Light > Minmatar Scout Dropsuit Upgrades > Armor/Shields Upgrades > Shields Extenders > Biotics > KinCat > Core Upgrades > Cloak > Uplinks > Electronics [all components] > Engineering > Hacking > Weaponry > Explosives > Grenadier > Light/Sidearm operation > CR > NK I was over 20m SP before I completed all my cores, plus weapon/modules and equipment for my logi. Logi suits have more slots than any other class. My PC fit logi costs about 220k, my PC scout? about 180k. So 40k difference per death. I die WAY more in my logi. Like I said, scouts are easy mode. Cloak, flank, and destroy. If you can't win with a scout you need to find another game... Edit: you are also using the worst scout. Get in a GK.0 and tell me its not easy mode.
Gk.0 is a trash bag compared to Minja.
Ps. I didn't counted every needed skill.
Loyal to State. Led by Tibus Heth.
Ready for sacrafise [like Admiral Yakiya Tobil-Toba].
Ps. I have 2 minmatar slaves
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dent 308
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3179
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Posted - 2015.01.01 08:16:00 -
[168] - Quote
Not reading all that, but for the record this is a **** thread.
Humphrey Bogart (1899-1957)
I should never have switched from scotch to martinis.
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Vaibhav Ganesh
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
41
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Posted - 2015.01.01 08:57:00 -
[169] - Quote
Mejt0 wrote:Vaibhav Ganesh wrote:My PRO logi costed me about 200,000 isk per battle. With my alt, which is an PRO assault, the fit costs abt 130,000. Wat abt that? My ak.0 assault costs me +200k isks. Your assault is fitted poorly. Logi as well. Ps. Guns [and grenade] + eq = +130k isks Suit + modules = another +100k isks.
That is my cheapest logi fit and cheapest assault fit
LFC
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