DUST Search - LP standings

CCP Rattati wrote:

MINA Longstrike wrote:

When questioned about what the various empires would call their mercenaries months ago, I believe the community came up with the fact that in eve Minmatar naming schemes are done based off of norse mythology, Gallente after Greek, Caldari after animals/Japanese myth, and amarr after religious stuff / knightly orders.

Basing it off the concept of 'immortals' in each stated thema, I'll toss these out.

Level 10 Minmatar - Einherjiar
Level 10 Gallente - Elysian or Hecatonchires
Level 10 Caldari - Rasetsu (it's kind of migrated from indian culture, but they're ultra-violent deathfeeder type things, unbound by karmic cycle - we're looking at the Buddhist incarnation primarily)
Level 10 Amarr - (I'm kind of stumped on this, I want to go with Empyrean, Archon, or Sefrim)

The point I'd like to make is to *separate them from military titles*, Immortal mercenaries are creatures of practically mythic might - warriors without peer and we should fall somewhere outside of typical military foundations. We're called in when nothing else will do, when it would be suicide for anyone else to even try - and then we go and achieve the impossible.

sounds cool, I am also working on the side on properly naming the racial and the role, inspired by Kagehoshi's old thread i.e. Amarr Sentinel = Dreadnought, Minmatar Logi - Shaman, those kinds of lines. It would be nice to have a cool consistent reference.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 9 post(s)
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 37	Posted - 2014.08.03 19:18:00 - [181] - Quote junni jones wrote: let me try this for the Amarr its probably not the best but hey i tried 10: Monster O God hellsing reference 9: Templar 8: Paladin 7: Holy Knight 6: Saint 5: Missionaries 4: Under Marshal 3: Sergeant Brothers 2: Turcopoles 1: Standard Bearer Mina identified the root language for amarr naming conventions as primarily Hebrew, and was apparently working on coming up with something based on that.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1592	Posted - 2014.08.03 23:04:00 - [182] - Quote I must say, contrary to my previous crossed out post I am souring on the whole idea of FW ranks being in other languages. While it does lend a diversity to the titles it doesn't really convey the races' values. I like the idea of the Amarran FW ranks being based on something "Crusades" esque as it fits their whole religious zealot backstory. junni jones's ideas are good with the exception of rank 10 which I would prefer to see switched with "Inquisitor" or the like since it keeps more with the overall theme he developed in the list. junni jones wrote: 10: Monster O God hellsing reference 9: Templar 8: Paladin 7: Holy Knight 6: Saint 5: Missionaries 4: Under Marshal 3: Sergeant Brothers 2: Turcopoles 1: Standard Bearer Fun > Realism
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 6891	Posted - 2014.08.03 23:18:00 - [183] - Quote It's becoming more and more evident that people just dont know. see you space cowboy...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12542	Posted - 2014.08.03 23:20:00 - [184] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: I must say, contrary to my previous crossed out post I am souring on the whole idea of FW ranks being in other languages. While it does lend a diversity to the titles it doesn't really convey the races' values. I like the idea of the Amarran FW ranks being based on something "Crusades" esque as it fits their whole religious zealot backstory. junni jones's ideas are good with the exception of rank 10 which I would prefer to see switched with "Inquisitor" or the like since it keeps more with the overall theme he developed in the list. junni jones wrote: 10: Monster O God hellsing reference 9: Templar 8: Paladin 7: Holy Knight 6: Saint 5: Missionaries 4: Under Marshal 3: Sergeant Brothers 2: Turcopoles 1: Standard Bearer AHahahahahahahahahhaha..... good god I wish people would wise the **** up and read the lore of the Amarr...... still..... 1.) Initiate/ Acolyte 2.) Paladin 3.) Exalted Paladin 4.) Templar 5.) Templar Lieutenant 6.) Legate 7.) Imperial Inquisitor 8.) Imperator Cardinal 9.) Ecclesiarch 10.) Divine Captain of the Imperial Guard or Scutariorum Imperatrix "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 6891	Posted - 2014.08.03 23:25:00 - [185] - Quote Seriously, as much as I joke about the Amarr some of these comments make me shiver with frustration. see you space cowboy...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12543	Posted - 2014.08.03 23:59:00 - [186] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Seriously, as much as I joke about the Amarr some of these comments make me shiver with frustration. Wait, no, dont like my Comment true. I agree with Mobius. I just thought the monster of god and other suggestions were...outlandish. Imud Hubrau was confirmed to mean Beast of Heaven.......so not so outlandish....... EDIT: Originally I thought it was Mezagorm...but that means Vision of God instead. "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Galm Fae Eskola Ergonomics 287	Posted - 2014.08.04 00:12:00 - [187] - Quote As I understand it a majority of Amarr language is built from Arabic and Latin, along with Hebrew like Longstride-haani is apparently looking into. Looking at words from those cultures could be a good point in the right direction. Words like Paladin and Legate are honestly good enough but I think we can get a bit more creative than that. I can make up a list of my own, just to see what people around here think. Though personally I'm tempted to keep debate on Amarr rankings 'in house' with people like PIE, who seem to be die-hard Imperials. I reckon it means more to them than it does to folks like me. *Kirjuun! Uakan! Teknikiara! Kanpai kameitsamuu! Ra ra ra!* > --Keepin' the peace!--
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 37	Posted - 2014.08.04 00:16:00 - [188] - Quote http://www.academia.edu/5087064/The_Names_of_Israeli_Military_Ranks_and_their_linguistic_analysis or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces_ranks Not a terrible place to start. Also look at ship names: http://eveinfo.com/npcships/665/eve-online-mission-amarr-empire-frigate.html
MINA Longstrike 1105	Posted - 2014.08.04 00:49:00 - [189] - Quote Just looking at ship names, they seem to be named after a lot of popes, or martyrs, vague military names (with religious association), or after Abrahamic spirits. So to start an Amarr list 1) Turay (means 'private') 2) Templar (Go to title for amarrian immortal mercs) 3) Seren (means 'tyrant' or 'lord', also used as 'captain') 4) Atabeg (title of hereditary nobility) 5) Palatine (High level court title, heavily associated with military) 6) Malik (it means 'king', but we could use it as a refluffed word for 'holder') 7) Aluf (Hebrew word meaning 'Champion', also used as a title for 'general') 8) Kokbiel (Enochian angel, 'Ruler of Planets') - can be replaced for a more appropriate word. 9) Erel (rank of judiac angel, means 'valiant/courageous') 10) Hashmal (rank of judiac angel, means 'shining/glowing') Well, that gets us started. It's not nearly as strong of a list as I would like due to my lack of familiarity with the language in question, felt a bit like I was playing mix and match. Also I really, really wanted to stay away from existing religious titles, and stuff like 'inquisitor / knight errant / justicar / paladin' etc as I find those overused to the point of being stale, Amarr already has tons of ships named like that for its eve pilots. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Galm Fae Eskola Ergonomics 287	Posted - 2014.08.04 01:08:00 - [190] - Quote What is crazy about the Amarr is that the more you look into their culture the more muddy the waters get. At first glance you want to apply roman titles, and frankly there is no reason why people shouldn't. It would all be just as viable as Hebrew, and both serve as a good framework to build on. Then you kind of a have to look beyond that though, and once you do things get complicated fast. The term Paladin isn't a Roman title, but actually references a lower vassal of the Charlemagne Empire closely associated with Frankish tradition and Arthurian legend, which is interesting when you think about it. What we are basically left with at their very core isn't a Roman structure at all, but a theological covet attempting to increase stability by emulating Roman society and doing a rather horrible job of it, just like Charlemagne. All the while it is supported by an underlying religion that more closely follows that of the beliefs of King Solomon. So what I am trying to say is... This is too hard, I give up. *Kirjuun! Uakan! Teknikiara! Kanpai kameitsamuu! Ra ra ra!* > --Keepin' the peace!--

MINA Longstrike 1105	Posted - 2014.08.04 07:11:00 - [191] - Quote Update: also replaced min rank 8 (alfr) with Vaettr which means 'wight' (which fits the theme), and comes from 'vita' and also means 'to be'. Also, while I understand why you'd want to use "Aegaeon" Galm, that's a title of a specific hekatonkheir and I'd like to keep the titles non-specific so as to individualize anyone who actually hits gallente rank 10 as yet another specific hundred-handed warrior who fought against tyranny for causes that were good and just. Rattati wanted to get the individual suits named, Maybe the commando could be a cottus (striker/furious) and the sentinel could be a briareus (vigorous) Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Evicer THE HECATONCHIRES 709	Posted - 2014.08.04 08:40:00 - [192] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: When questioned about what the various empires would call their mercenaries months ago, I believe the community came up with the fact that in eve Minmatar naming schemes are done based off of norse mythology, Gallente after Greek, Caldari after animals/Japanese myth, and amarr after religious stuff / knightly orders. Basing it off the concept of 'immortals' in each stated thema, I'll toss these out. Level 10 Minmatar - Einherjiar Level 10 Gallente - Elysian or Hecatonchires Level 10 Caldari - Rasetsu (it's kind of migrated from indian culture, but they're ultra-violent deathfeeder type things, unbound by karmic cycle - we're looking at the Buddhist incarnation primarily) Level 10 Amarr - (I'm kind of stumped on this, I want to go with Empyrean, Archon, or Sefrim) The point I'd like to make is to separate them from military titles, Immortal mercenaries are creatures of practically mythic might - warriors without peer and we should fall somewhere outside of typical military foundations. We're called in when nothing else will do, when it would be suicide for anyone else to even try - and then we go and achieve the impossible. sounds cool, I am also working on the side on properly naming the racial and the role, inspired by Kagehoshi's old thread i.e. Amarr Sentinel = Dreadnought, Minmatar Logi - Shaman, those kinds of lines. It would be nice to have a cool consistent reference. As an Avid Amarr FW player I doubt that a Gallente level 10 would want to be named after my corp that is unless they plan on making there names after an Amarr fw corp. Any time any one would do a search it would show my corp and The Lord Marshal an Amarr toon as your Lord savoir and CEO, wait this idea is starting to grow on me. Fortune favors the Bold,but Success favors the Resolute Unbent,Unburdened, UNSTOPPABLE Amarr loyalist
MINA Longstrike 1105	Posted - 2014.08.04 09:12:00 - [193] - Quote It isn't being named after your corp. It's being named after the same mythological figure you chose to name your corp after as well. Coincidences happen. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
HECATONCHIRES GYGES Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 158	Posted - 2014.08.04 09:15:00 - [194] - Quote AMARR VICTOR !!! LET THE BOOT LICKIN BEGIN
TheLord HighMarshal Hellbrecht THE HECATONCHIRES 4	Posted - 2014.08.04 09:23:00 - [195] - Quote This is amusing. Yes you Gallente lvl 10s may kneel and swear fealty to THE HECATONCHIRES ,your Holder Lord, The Emperess, and the Amarr Empire. Fortune favors the Bold,but Success favors the Resolute Unbent, Unburdened, UNSTOPPABLE Amarr loyalis
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1596	Posted - 2014.08.04 14:12:00 - [196] - Quote True Adamance wrote: 1.) Initiate/ Acolyte 2.) Paladin 3.) Exalted Paladin 4.) Templar 5.) Templar Lieutenant 6.) Legate 7.) Imperial Inquisitor 8.) Imperator Cardinal 9.) Ecclesiarch 10.) Divine Captain of the Imperial Guard or Scutariorum Imperatrix Now this is the best Amarr list so far. Interesting with a militiary/religious bent, and most importantly, not trying so hard. Honestly the simplicity makes the ranks sound nice. Fun > Realism
MINA Longstrike 1105	Posted - 2014.08.04 17:08:00 - [197] - Quote And yet I point you to galm fae's post about language. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Maximus Stryker Who Are Those Guys 1016	Posted - 2014.08.04 17:55:00 - [198] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: An idea I had was to show LP standings as a forum tag. If anyone is interested in helping me make a cool lore case, please reply to this thread like this: "Standing" - "Honorary Title" Gallente 10 General 9 Lord Marshall ... ... Caldari 10 Chancellor Minmatar 10 Warlord Amarr 10 High Priest etc. Hope this comes to fruition. Best Idea For Legion
Evicer THE HECATONCHIRES 710	Posted - 2014.08.05 02:34:00 - [199] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: It isn't being named after your corp. It's being named after the same mythological figure you chose to name your corp after as well. Coincidences happen. So you expect EVE players AKA the people that call us "Dust Bunnies" to call us by these deified titles ? Fortune favors the Bold,but Success favors the Resolute Unbent,Unburdened, UNSTOPPABLE Amarr loyalist
Evicer THE HECATONCHIRES 710	Posted - 2014.08.05 02:36:00 - [200] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Seriously, as much as I joke about the Amarr some of these comments make me shiver with frustration. Wait, no, dont like my Comment true. I agree with Mobius. I just thought the monster of god and other suggestions were...outlandish. you absolutley correct Kirk no Eve player would take some of these titles seroiusly Fortune favors the Bold,but Success favors the Resolute Unbent,Unburdened, UNSTOPPABLE Amarr loyalist

Evicer THE HECATONCHIRES 710	Posted - 2014.08.05 02:41:00 - [201] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: I must say, contrary to my previous crossed out post I am souring on the whole idea of FW ranks being in other languages. While it does lend a diversity to the titles it doesn't really convey the races' values. I like the idea of the Amarran FW ranks being based on something "Crusades" esque as it fits their whole religious zealot backstory. junni jones's ideas are good with the exception of rank 10 which I would prefer to see switched with "Inquisitor" or the like since it keeps more with the overall theme he developed in the list. junni jones wrote: 10: Monster O God hellsing reference 9: Templar 8: Paladin 7: Holy Knight 6: Saint 5: Missionaries 4: Under Marshal 3: Sergeant Brothers 2: Turcopoles 1: Standard Bearer AHahahahahahahahahhaha..... good god I wish people would wise the ** up and read the lore of the Amarr...... still..... 1.) Initiate/ Acolyte 2.) Paladin 3.) Exalted Paladin 4.) Templar 5.) Templar Lieutenant 6.) Legate 7.) Imperial Inquisitor 8.) Imperator Cardinal 9.) Ecclesiarch 10.) Divine Captain of the Imperial Guard or Scutariorum Imperatrix Trues post is the only one Ive seen in this whole thread that even has a shred of a chance as being accepted. Fortune favors the Bold,but Success favors the Resolute** Unbent,Unburdened, UNSTOPPABLE Amarr loyalist
Evicer THE HECATONCHIRES 710	Posted - 2014.08.05 03:00:00 - [202] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: And yet I point you to galm fae's post about language. You mean your alt , along with Malleus Malificorum your other alt, Mina Longstrikes sig:Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts. Fortune favors the Bold,but Success favors the Resolute Unbent,Unburdened, UNSTOPPABLE Amarr loyalist
MINA Longstrike 1105	Posted - 2014.08.05 03:51:00 - [203] - Quote Evicer wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: It isn't being named after your corp. It's being named after the same mythological figure you chose to name your corp after as well. Coincidences happen. So you expect EVE players AKA the people that call us "Dust Bunnies" to call us by these deified titles ? When did eve or its players ever enter the picture? Oh right, you're an eve player who jumped right on that entitlement bandwagon and now you spend a great deal of time whining and complaining about dust and 'wasted sub money' and god knows whatever else perceived slight you've managed to get into your head. As I and others said to you the other day when you were gloating about the name hecatonchires, you're the only person I've ever met who is dumb enough to try and take credit for something they have no involvement in. You aren't the origin of greek mythology nor are you responsible for the names of the greek titans and you're about as 'cool' the kids who name themselves 'naruto' and ride on the coattails of someone elses work by trying to stand in the shadow of whatever glory it might have had. Of course you might already know this if you were actually capable of having or recognizing an original thought Evicer. Why don't you go back to being terrible and irrelevant at eve Evicer. Loving all the lossmails you have on Armaeus Hellbrecht. I mean I understand it's hard to recognize thought, care and research put into things like names and you'd love to have it dumbed down to the boring, generic and incredibly overused ranking systems of call of duty which were made easily digestable for people just like you. Because how dare a dust player ever have a nicer sounding title than what you could get in eve! I mean "dust bunnies" don't even do anything for eve players. In summary, all I have to say, Is go be irrelevant and terrible elsewhere, Maybe go try to lose another failfit abaddon in lowsec. Oh and if you weren't so terrible to interact with, you might actually be able to guess who my alts are without donning a tinfoil hat and sounding like an idiot. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Galm Fae Eskola Ergonomics 287	Posted - 2014.08.05 04:31:00 - [204] - Quote Evicer wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: It isn't being named after your corp. It's being named after the same mythological figure you chose to name your corp after as well. Coincidences happen. So you expect EVE players AKA the people that call us "Dust Bunnies" to call us by these deified titles ? "Dust Bunnies" by the way was never an EVE term. It was a term made by mercenaries who were foolish enough to communicate with capsuleers and call themselves as Dusters due to their incompetency with lore. That or the only EVE players you know are a bunch of basics. Even those that actually use that term don't do it out of lack of ability, but lack of respect. They don't take mercenaries seriously, and probably justifiably so when you line the average DUST player next to an average EVE player. Maybe formal titles that have a significant amount of thought in them will be a step towards changing that. Also... You think I'm Longstride's alt? Seriously? Do you also buy non-fluoridated water and hold your breath when you see a chem trail? The fact that I have a napanii sig just shows that I know my lore. It's not some esoteric language we made up. *Kirjuun! Uakan! Teknikiara! Kanpai kameitsamuu! Ra ra ra!* > --Keepin' the peace!--
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1601	Posted - 2014.08.05 06:26:00 - [205] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: And yet I point you to galm fae's post about language. MINA, I hate to break it to you but I find that all the lists in other languages, especially my own, are trying far too hard. They may indeed have some connection to EvE lore and I think it is great that you are working so hard on them (by you I mean all of the people who are involved in them), unfortunately they just aren't as good as the lists that use English terms and link with the more general themes relevant to the race in question. True's list is perfect evidence of this. Sure, you could do days of research and come up with a list in Ancient Aramaic that is drawing from language used in the Dead Sea Scrolls and linked with 8 seperate pieces of erata that you have read about the Amarr. You could do that and it would be conceptually impressive, but it would also be a waste of time. No one but you and the other people who helped you with said list would really understand what it means or its relevance. Not only will they not understand but they won't care. The words, because they are in another language will have no relevance to the players. While you might be thinking well then those players are stupid, which, to be honest, is probably how I would react as well if I had worked really hard on something. The larger problem is that because most players don't understand your list they also won't care about the titles. Earning ranks will not be a motivating factor since no one will be impressed by them bragging that they are rank "0wyrs0." TL;DR Lists in other languages mean nothing to the vast majority of the playerbase and therefore should not be used to rank FW participants. FW ranks should be in English and loosely based upon the respective race's core background. Dust players with other languages set as the game's main language should get similar primary language preference. Fun > Realism
MINA Longstrike 1105	Posted - 2014.08.05 06:35:00 - [206] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: TL;DR Lists in other languages mean nothing to the vast majority of the playerbase and therefore should not be used to rank FW participants. FW ranks should be in English and loosely based upon the respective race's core background. Dust players with other languages set as the game's main language should get similar primary language preference. Cool opinion bud. It's nice to see you step away from being overwhelmingly condescending for a minute, to simply being mildly condescending. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 3793	Posted - 2014.08.05 07:15:00 - [207] - Quote Somehow this turned into a epeen thread. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!!
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1602	Posted - 2014.08.05 07:49:00 - [208] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: TL;DR Lists in other languages mean nothing to the vast majority of the playerbase and therefore should not be used to rank FW participants. FW ranks should be in English and loosely based upon the respective race's core background. Dust players with other languages set as the game's main language should get similar primary language preference. Cool opinion bud. It's nice to see you step away from being overwhelmingly condescending and insulting for a minute, to simply being mildly condescending. You aren't the only source of feedback that the names have been presented to, the vast majority have reacted very positively towards it especially when given a side by side comparison and a little bit more explanation. You're entitled to your opinion, but it isn't an objective fact. I knew you would be hurt and react in accorance with that feeling but you really need to take a step back and do some really deep thinking about what your proposing and how it will be accepted by the entire community not just the 10 or so people actively participating in this thread. Also, while you may have taken my tone to be condescending that really is you reading too much into it. I was actually trying to be respectful of your work and opinion while at the same time pointing out a major issue. It is sad that you reacted exactly as I thought you might. I hoped for more. Fun > Realism
MINA Longstrike 1105	Posted - 2014.08.05 08:13:00 - [209] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: TL;DR Lists in other languages mean nothing to the vast majority of the playerbase and therefore should not be used to rank FW participants. FW ranks should be in English and loosely based upon the respective race's core background. Dust players with other languages set as the game's main language should get similar primary language preference. Cool opinion bud. It's nice to see you step away from being overwhelmingly condescending and insulting for a minute, to simply being mildly condescending. You aren't the only source of feedback that the names have been presented to, the vast majority have reacted very positively towards it especially when given a side by side comparison and a little bit more explanation. You're entitled to your opinion, but it isn't an objective fact. I knew you would be hurt and react in accorance with that feeling but you really need to take a step back and do some really deep thinking about what your proposing and how it will be accepted by the entire community not just the 10 or so people actively participating in this thread. Also, while you may have taken my tone to be condescending that really is you reading too much into it. I was actually trying to be respectful of your work and opinion while at the same time pointing out a major issue. It is sad that you reacted exactly as I thought you might. I hoped for more. I have little inclination to believe you're not being 'condescending' when you enter a discussion flinging insults and attacks on the character of others ('dime store understanding'). Things like that flavor whole conversations. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1602	Posted - 2014.08.05 08:23:00 - [210] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: I have little inclination to believe you're not being 'condescending' when you enter a discussion flinging insults and attacks on the character of others ('dime store understanding'). Things like that flavor whole conversations. I've actually gone through three stages of feeling with regards to you and this particular thread. First I was really annoyed when I wrongly percieved you to be trying to turn us into "space ninjas." I really hate the idea of dust being full of space ninjas. As a result I loaded up my vitriolic cannons and let loose a volley or two. After I learned that you were really trying to make your concepts fit the lore I was dispassionately interested. Finally after a lot of thought I have become brightened by your spirit but totally disinterested in your end-product. Your reaction was fair given my initial attack but I was truly trying to be productive and respectful with the last few posts. Fun > Realism



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