DUST Search - LP standings

Mobius Kaethis wrote:

Malleus Malificorum wrote:

"Dumb it down, I don't think the people who have no knowledge of anything lore related would understand" - this isn't really a valid position because it's really being used to prop up an argument from ignorance, it's essentially saying "I don't understand it, so I don't like it, instead lets use names that aren't accurate because they have less of a burden of knowledge". Force feed people the lore, give them the titles they may not necessarily understand at first and maybe they'll do a little bit of research and go 'wow! this is really cool, it really expands my understanding of [faction]'.

I think you are vastly over estimating the willingness of the Dust player base to get onto a computer and put time into researching Dust related lore. Sure, I'm sure that there are a few members of our community who would be spurred into reading the mythos of the EvE universe. Unfortunately I really think that the majority of players just aren't going to care enough to invest the energy. Remember you're talking about a small player base of console players, many of whom have zero connection to EvE beyond what Dust provides.

Many of these players have told me repeatedly that they have no interest in deepening their gaming experience by getting into EvE or even learning more about the EvE lore. They want it simple. They want something connected to the easily digestible elements of the races background which they have gleaned from character creation and have little to no interest beyond that.

It is not that Kirk and I are dumbing anything down or even supporting their ignorance. The ranking systems we want to present need to be perfectly accurate to their races. No, what we are looking for is something that is readily understandable. Ranks in other languages are simply too obtuse to catch most players interest. They will look at those unintelligible words and simply not care at all about what it says leaving them unmotivated to strive for a higher rank.

True's list, which has a strong connection to the Amarran back story and theme is clear, interesting, and has a lot of cool sounding titles. That is what is going to push players towards participation. Bragging and showing off their e-peen through their ranks. Put yourself in their shoes. To a person who hasn't done the translation work which is going to sound cooler: High inquisitor, or +Æ+æ+ò+ö +ö+É+Ö+á+º+ò+ò+Ö+û+Ö+ÿ+ò+¿ (I can't romanize it because my hebrew is rusty and google translate doesn't use vowels. Darn my lack of practice). One sounds like some bad-ass evil priest, the other is totally meaningless.

I'm starting to ramble, but the point is these lists need to be in English, linked to the race in questions culture backbone, and sound aggressive as well as cool.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 9 post(s)
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 36	Posted - 2014.08.03 07:13:00 - [1] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: Proposed Caldari Ranks by faction warfare level: 1) Camicia Nera 2) Capo Squadra 3) Aiutante 4) Sottocapomanipolo 5) Centurione 6) Seniore 7) Primo Senior 8) Console Comandante 9) Luogotenente Generale 10) Comandante Generale These are based upon the ranks used by the "Black Shirts" who were the Facist Miliia of Franco era Spain. While they are simple ranks I feel like the italian terminology and clear connection to the terms use for ranks in Ancient Rome gives it a bit of interesting flare. I witdraw my own submission because Jaysyn Larrisen's is so excellent. I love the non-Asian/Euro specific nature as well as how you integrated the corporate titles with agressive military sounding terms. Great work! Really it seems pretty bland to me with the constant reusing of the same words but hey idk since I'm all about that Amarr :D It is bland. And Mobius, maybe you're painfully unaware but quite a fair bit of the caldari naming scheme from eve is Japanese. In fact if you looked at the links provided earlier you can see the names of every NPC in the game, the entire npc caldari ship naming scheme is based off of Japanese words usually variations on feudal Japanese soldiers and their equipment. I don't care how you believe the corporations run or should run, you are wrong, everything suggested by Galm and Mina conforms to the naming conventions of eve. It's incongruous to the point of being jarring when you try to toss out Italian names for a race that has zero connection to anything Italian, in fact it just makes your condescending attitude look stupid and woefully uninformed when you cant do enough basic research to get the races naming conventions right. Quit being a self loathing weaboo, You might not like the Japanese titles suggested or even the non-Japanese ones but they are appropriate and to the point accurate, they stick to the root languages used by the races in their npc names. Furthermore I like the idea of staying away from non-standard military ranks, because we are immortal mercenaries not part of any existing military organization, so in addition to titles like "general" being painfully ****ing boring and underwhelming they ring particularly hollow due to all of our characters not actually existing within any faction military structure.
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 37	Posted - 2014.08.03 19:18:00 - [2] - Quote junni jones wrote: let me try this for the Amarr its probably not the best but hey i tried 10: Monster O God hellsing reference 9: Templar 8: Paladin 7: Holy Knight 6: Saint 5: Missionaries 4: Under Marshal 3: Sergeant Brothers 2: Turcopoles 1: Standard Bearer Mina identified the root language for amarr naming conventions as primarily Hebrew, and was apparently working on coming up with something based on that.
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 37	Posted - 2014.08.04 00:16:00 - [3] - Quote http://www.academia.edu/5087064/The_Names_of_Israeli_Military_Ranks_and_their_linguistic_analysis or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces_ranks Not a terrible place to start. Also look at ship names: http://eveinfo.com/npcships/665/eve-online-mission-amarr-empire-frigate.html
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 39	Posted - 2014.08.05 18:27:00 - [4] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: He is a little bit sensitive isn't he? he's reacted that way several times in this thread. but yeah, you have to keep in mind the entire playerbase. Not just a few people that agree with each other on the forums. and that message was more so for you CCP because I know you'll read this eventually. "Dumb it down, I don't think the people who have no knowledge of anything lore related would understand" - this isn't really a valid position because it's really being used to prop up an argument from ignorance, it's essentially saying "I don't understand it, so I don't like it, instead lets use names that aren't accurate because they have less of a burden of knowledge". Force feed people the lore, give them the titles they may not necessarily understand at first and maybe they'll do a little bit of research and go 'wow! this is really cool, it really expands my understanding of [faction]'.
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 40	Posted - 2014.08.06 01:30:00 - [5] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Malleus Malificorum wrote: "Dumb it down, I don't think the people who have no knowledge of anything lore related would understand" - this isn't really a valid position because it's really being used to prop up an argument from ignorance, it's essentially saying "I don't understand it, so I don't like it, instead lets use names that aren't accurate because they have less of a burden of knowledge". Force feed people the lore, give them the titles they may not necessarily understand at first and maybe they'll do a little bit of research and go 'wow! this is really cool, it really expands my understanding of [faction]'. I think you are vastly over estimating the willingness of the Dust player base to get onto a computer and put time into researching Dust related lore. Sure, I'm sure that there are a few members of our community who would be spurred into reading the mythos of the EvE universe. Unfortunately I really think that the majority of players just aren't going to care enough to invest the energy. Remember you're talking about a small player base of console players, many of whom have zero connection to EvE beyond what Dust provides. Many of these players have told me repeatedly that they have no interest in deepening their gaming experience by getting into EvE or even learning more about the EvE lore. They want it simple. They want something connected to the easily digestible elements of the races background which they have gleaned from character creation and have little to no interest beyond that. It is not that Kirk and I are dumbing anything down or even supporting their ignorance. The ranking systems we want to present need to be perfectly accurate to their races. No, what we are looking for is something that is readily understandable. Ranks in other languages are simply too obtuse to catch most players interest. They will look at those unintelligible words and simply not care at all about what it says leaving them unmotivated to strive for a higher rank. True's list, which has a strong connection to the Amarran back story and theme is clear, interesting, and has a lot of cool sounding titles. That is what is going to push players towards participation. Bragging and showing off their e-peen through their ranks. Put yourself in their shoes. To a person who hasn't done the translation work which is going to sound cooler: High inquisitor, or +Æ+æ+ò+ö +ö+É+Ö+á+º+ò+ò+Ö+û+Ö+ÿ+ò+¿ (I can't romanize it because my hebrew is rusty and google translate doesn't use vowels. Darn my lack of practice). One sounds like some bad-ass evil priest, the other is totally meaningless. I'm starting to ramble, but the point is these lists need to be in English, linked to the race in questions culture backbone, and sound aggressive as well as cool. Might I suggest you stop making logical fallacies like Reductio ad Absurdum (your Hebrew example) the lists have been presented in 'english', though they may not be words that you're familiar with. Among the other logical fallacies you're making is 'argumentum ad populum' with wonderful things like "well most dust players don't care about this!", if they 'don't care' why are you considering their opinion? Remember, these are supposed to be forum titles (though who knows, maybe one day they'll show up in legion) and they'll likely have an option to be disabled, if you never go on the forums it doesn't affect you and thus it shouldn't be pandering to you. If you have no interest in the Lore why should we pander to you with stale titles or things that might be 'technically' accurate, but not as accurate as other more involved looks? Your 'points' are riddled with logical fallacies (strawman's, special pleading, ad hominem and more) and they have been since you showed up and started insulting the hard work of others when you didn't have a damn clue what you yourself were talking about. You've expressed your opinion multiple times and I'm sure it'll be taken into consideration, but you've also severely dragged the level of this discussion down with your ignorance. At this point all we're doing is going around in circles.
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 40	Posted - 2014.08.06 03:54:00 - [6] - Quote I'll address some of your numbered points here. Mobius Kaethis wrote: Do you even know what a logical fallacy is? Yes, I do. If you did you'd understand that you've been making a lot of them. Mobius Kaethis wrote: 1) Most people who play eve aren't interested in the lore to the extent that you are. And yet we still have all the amazing lore and backstory that bubbles to the surface, to those that aren't interested the bhaalgorn is just another shiptype and the state shokuro buke is just another NPC, but for people that actually are interested in the lore it can mean a lot and presents a wonderfully rich universe to explore. Mobius Kaethis wrote: 2) The level your taking it to destroys the value of it for the majority of the player base. This is an opinion, not a fact. Mobius Kaethis wrote: 3) CCP should be appealing to the largest contingent of the player community it can. Why? So they can be spit on and disrespected like with the petition for the ATLI PS-3 FOCUSED LASER RIFLE? You haven't supported this point at all, it's simply an appeal to emotion (which is a logical fallacy). Why should they pander to a disinterested playerbase? Mobius Kaethis wrote: 4) You are not representative of that community and thus need to shut the ** up. Says who? Who are you? Why do you think you represent anything better than any other individual? On what grounds do you think that you have the authority to tell anyone that their ideas shouldn't stand on their own merit because they "don't represent the terribly disinterested community"? >What the does this even mean? Could you at least try and make sense? Pander We're looking at bullet number 2 here. Why should CCP use titles that stale (captain, major, general) or aren't as thematically accurate (read galms post about the word 'paladin') when people have come up with things that are accurate, aren't stale, and are thematically strong and unified. You say they should because you want them to pander to you, I say they shouldn't because I don't think they should pander to people who clearly don't really care, there's no point in focusing on a lost cause. >You've neck-bearded around for 11 pages and totally failed at creating something that will inspire the majority of the payer base. Here, I think you need this >When someone contradicts you, you try and bully them into submission. We've heard enough of your lame ass so shut the ** up and let the adults talk. Pot meet kettle, you're black. Incidentally the discussion was entirely civil and going quite well until you showed up and started slinging mud because gasp you thought you might have found a weaboo on the internet! I don't think I'm going to respond to anything else you have to say. You've derailed this completely and the constant arguing because of it has sucked the enjoyment out of the idea for practically everyone, thanks for that.
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 42	Posted - 2014.08.08 06:33:00 - [7] - Quote Jesus Christ Evicer. No one cares, It's done, let it go.
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 58	Posted - 2014.08.14 06:34:00 - [8] - Quote If you want to create page after page of your own ideas, feel free to Evicer. Rattati has asked people to stop creating page after page of negative minded rants about other peoples ideas, which is what you're doing. Either be constructive, or offer constructive criticism. Quit nitpicking. If you want to try and find some way to reconcile the ideas that Galm, Mina and Myself have offered with your own personal ideas like Ceej Mantis has suggested, feel free to. Until then, stop being a ****head and trying to shoot others ideas down with little justification beyond "I don't like it" or "my own tenuous grasp of lore disagrees with this".
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 67	Posted - 2014.08.15 07:33:00 - [9] - Quote Evicer, you're ranting over all sorts of wild things that were never said or even claimed. Honestly, knock it off. To explain my position again in concise terms: 1) while the organizations we are fighting for may be militaries in their own right, we are not actually part of them, we work for them as mercenaries thus I feel titles of 'responsibility' are inappropriate. 2) As I feel titles of responsibility are inappropriate investigation was done into the linguistic origins of each race (and as individual dialects cannot be pinned down, we're operating off the assumption of a 'common' language for each race) to create the ranks. 3) There's something like half a million capsuleers or so I estimate, there's probably less than 40 000 immortal mercenaries, the power we have to sway ground wars is unbelievable for example - In order to get from rank 9 to rank 10 one needs to win 200 matches (conquer 200 districts) as planets have 24 districts this amounts to having to conquer 8.33~ planets for one rank increase that is in itself a feat of absolutely mythical proportions which I feel justifies the 'supernatural' theme of the 8 9 and 10 ranks (as to get to rank 10 you have to have done something like flipped what amounts to almost 20 planets). No one here has made the claim that our clones are angels, or demons or etcetera, merely that if we were to do something like conquer 20+ planets with sixteen people the perception would be that we are accomplishing unheard feats of almost mythological scale, things that should resonate among their respective cultures as being nothing short of heroism or 'godhood' (y'know that thing that's repeated ad nauseum in eve). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jfFKSIqkvM This trailer outright calls one a 'demigod' in it, Is it literal? No, it's a euphemism or an abstraction. Members of the immortal mercenary initiative are demigods every bit as much as capsuleers are. Our titles should be impressive and full of pomp respective to race. There are hundreds of billions of 'mortals' in new eden, there is less than 600 000 capsuleers, there is less than fifty thousand immortal mercenaries - empires are terrified of the potential we possess, we are to be feared, our loyalty should be worthy of myth and scripture.
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 75	Posted - 2014.08.16 05:09:00 - [10] - Quote You're not making the point you think you're making Evicer. Capsuleers are clones as well and they're still referred to as demigods. No one would be worshipping the fact that an individual is a clone, they'd be honoring an individual who delivered 20+ planets to them with an abstract title. The Minmatar would be showing respect to a freedom fighter. The Gallente would be brimming with pride over a freedom fighter. The Caldari would be immortalizing a champion of the state. Weep not poor children, For life is this way, Murdering beauty and passion.

Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 83	Posted - 2014.08.17 04:44:00 - [11] - Quote Evicer wrote: You're soldier and they have a parade for you .they dont prostrate them selves and commence to bowing with clasped hands. The next day another cloned soldier takes back those same 20 planets. What is your point ? EDIT: As far as a EVE player being a demigod I dont subscribe to that either. Pull your Super cap or Titan into high sec and see what happens.....You'd be blown apart by Concord.....NPC humans You not 'subscribing' to it is irrelevant, As far as the ingame universe is concerned it is a fact. Not liking a fact doesn't mean its not true. Even people who hate the capsuleers or immortal mercenaries maintain a respectful awe for them- and for those that serve their respective empires so well, being viewed as something akin to a saint is appropriate (y'know, we do that in real life - worship people who have died but accomplished amazing things in their life, or stood for important issues. The only difference between 'Saints' and our characters in game, is that permanent death is damn near impossible for our characters). And as the video I linked stated 'You are not alone with such powers'. Just because there's other demigods out there the importance of our actions isn't diminished. And no, functionally we are not 'soldiers'. We're mercenaries - and there's a big difference in those words, because we are independent and free, we choose what we want to do. To quote two things I feel are appropriate : "A man chooses, a slave obeys" and "A hero is just a man who knows he's free". I am not a slave of the Amarr empire, though I choose to fight for it. Weep not poor children, For life is this way, Murdering beauty and passion.
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 83	Posted - 2014.08.17 05:48:00 - [12] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Once again Immortal Soldiers =/= Mercenary Until we have the ability to choose who we fight for beyond just facwar, with corporate standings towards those we fight for, and this game isn't just a lobby shooter and it has a lot more depth by being able to do so stuff like travel around the universe, we are simply mercenaries. If you want to pretend that you're a 'general' in your own corp, or that you were a 'seargeant' named 'kirk' before becoming an immortal mercenary that's all well and good, but it doesn't apply nor should it apply to factional titles because there is no responsibility associated with them. There isn't any requirement that a standing 6 'seargeant' / 'general' / 'what have you' needs to queue for a facwar match for a match to even show up. Weep not poor children, For life is this way, Murdering beauty and passion.
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 83	Posted - 2014.08.17 09:51:00 - [13] - Quote Don't cherrypick things I've said to try and misconstrue and twist them into saying things I haven't evicer. You are debating like a ****ing idiot. Weep not poor children, For life is this way, Murdering beauty and passion.