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Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 757	Posted - 2014.04.11 23:54:00 - [1] - Quote This is a ridiculous statement made by some people. Let me show you why: Hover zoom or clicky The above bar graph shows how precision enhancers are mostly underpowered because of the added dampening of the cloak. Oh and for all of you guys saying fit precision enhancers on medium/heavy suits(logi for the graph): Hover zoom or clicky Stop saying that, it is not a good idea. TLDR: First link shows how scouts precision lines up with dampening. Cloaks make dampening to strong Second link shows why precision enhancers on mediums or above is stupid. Fixing swarms
keno trader Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 27	Posted - 2014.04.11 23:59:00 - [2] - Quote Tis' true. Right now the gallente scout is slightly OP due to the fact it can just about evade anything and everything. But running in a group is a fact of life now I suppose.
Smooth Assassin Stardust Incorporation IMMORTAL REGIME 1201	Posted - 2014.04.12 00:00:00 - [3] - Quote keno trader wrote: Tis' true. Right now the gallente scout is slightly OP due to the fact it can just about evade anything and everything. But running in a group is a fact of life now I suppose. Tis'nt true. *Assassination is my thing.*
jerrmy12 kahoalii 958	Posted - 2014.04.12 00:17:00 - [4] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: This is a ridiculous statement made by some people. Let me show you why: Hover zoom or clicky The above bar graph shows how precision enhancers are mostly underpowered because of the added dampening of the cloak. Oh and for all of you guys saying fit precision enhancers on medium/heavy suits(logi for the graph): Hover zoom or clicky Stop saying that, it is not a good idea. TLDR: First link shows how scouts precision lines up with dampening. Cloaks make dampening to strong Second link shows why precision enhancers on mediums or above is stupid. That's the point, a damped scout should be un scannable. Closed beta vet Tears, sweet delicious tears
CRYPT3C W0LF SilenT AngelS 576	Posted - 2014.04.12 00:21:00 - [5] - Quote Just fit precision mods... I Make Youtube Videos!:) Forum evolution, the cycle must continue...
Rusty Shallows 1494	Posted - 2014.04.12 00:32:00 - [6] - Quote My advice for Precision Enhancers had nothing to do with scouts. It was for spotting Medium Frames with higher dampening skill than a Sentinel's vision. Speed fit mediums with shotguns can get pretty scary during a Skirmish while in the heavy urban sockets. When 60% of the objectives are elsewhere the number of friendlies tends to be less there. Which makes vision seriously important. Forums > Game: So here is a cookie and a Like. Please keep posting. Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ >>>
Scheneighnay McBob Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 4728	Posted - 2014.04.12 00:36:00 - [7] - Quote Precision mods are for scouts; instead, use your eye-holes and keep track of your teammates. If a blue dot mysteriously vanishes from the radar, look out. I'm from the weird side of the internet
Artemis Kaiba Shadow Broker Wet Squad 21	Posted - 2014.04.12 00:46:00 - [8] - Quote Nothing should be unscannable. A strongly dampening fitted scout should be scannable by a strongly scanning fitted gallente logi (as 1.8 wanted to settle classes). But the problem isn't there. The problem is that you need to use two PRO precision modules (hoping you have the slots) to counter a single STD cloaked scout. If the cloak scout is a Gallente scout, the passive bonus must be compensate by a third precision enhancer. So if I summarize : - first side : a Gallente scout with a STD cloak ---------> low meta level, low cost - second side : at least three precision enhancer (if you put 2 PRO modules) on a suit with enough slots (depending on races and suits but you may need to go to AVC or PRO) ---------> pretty high meta level and cost Do you see the imbalance ? the counter 1.8 suggest is to use Gallente logi. Again, to scan a STD dampened cloak scout, you'll need 3 AVC or PRO active scanner to be able to always "scan" around. Anyway, I don't think the actual active scanners design allows Gallente logi to efficiently have the ability to counter scouts (slow scanners vs fast scoutsGÇª). That last statement is made from my small experience in scan Gallente logi, comment are welcome as always. The solution I presented is to reduce cloak dampening according to meta level, along with buffing precision enhancers to reach same level as dampeners. Well fitted scouts will still have the advantage on common people (with little to none precision enhancer) while well fitted scan suits will be able to detect low or non dampened scouts.
Charlotte O'Dell Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 2394	Posted - 2014.04.12 00:48:00 - [9] - Quote +1 Buff precision enhancers! Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
Llast 326 An Arkhos 2845	Posted - 2014.04.12 00:55:00 - [10] - Quote I know this is not exactly on topic but You make a fine chart/graph Would it be a bother for you to put together an Active Scanner vs Dampening chart? Kind of on topic portion of post. The Dampeners vs Precision looks fairly reasonable until you factor in the Active Dampener bonus from the cloak. Scanner could be viewed as the Cloak counter. Though it does not depend on the Precision of the user so much as the cloak depends on the Profile of the userGÇª this is why I am curious about the effectiveness of the Active Scanner vs Cloak. They seem to be direct counters to each other, and I think your graphing would help display any benefits or shortcomings of the numbers. Knowing as well that it would not take into account some factor like the scan field. KRRROOOOOOM

knight guard fury The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 998	Posted - 2014.04.12 00:57:00 - [11] - Quote either run 2 complex precision mods or run a cal scout, a cal scout is meant to detect gal scouts since Cal and Gal kinda fight each other. (EVE wise) gal and gal = one scans like crazy but one hides amazing = balanced minmatar and amarr = one sprints like an athlete and one can run forever at a slow pace = balanced sure the gal scout is unscannable but a cal scout can scan the gal out out hiding. Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 760	Posted - 2014.04.12 01:18:00 - [12] - Quote knight guard fury wrote: either run 2 complex precision mods or run a cal scout, a cal scout is meant to detect gal scouts since Cal and Gal kinda fight each other. (EVE wise) gal and gal = one scans like crazy but one hides amazing = balanced minmatar and amarr = one sprints like an athlete and one can run forever at a slow pace = balanced sure the gal scout is unscannable but a cal scout can scan the gal out out hiding. Here is your classic example of someone how either: A) didn't read the original post or B) can not read a bar graph So let me clear up a few things for you: 1) gal scout w/ cloak is easily unscannable by cal scout w/ a precision mod. Meaning the gal scout is always largely ahead of the cal scout 2) 2 complex precision mods will not pick up a cloaked gal scout 3) As demonstrated, at length, the amarr scout will never beat the minmatar scout to any point ever, ever. This clearly means that teh minmatar scout >>> amarr scout (without even using the minmatar bonus). Amarr scout is horrible. Fixing swarms
jerrmy12 kahoalii 959	Posted - 2014.04.12 01:18:00 - [13] - Quote Artemis Kaiba wrote: Nothing should be unscannable. A strongly dampening fitted scout should be scannable by a strongly scanning fitted gallente logi (as 1.8 wanted to settle classes). But the problem isn't there. The problem is that you need to use two PRO precision modules (hoping you have the slots) to counter a single STD cloaked scout. If the cloak scout is a Gallente scout, the passive bonus must be compensate by a third precision enhancer. So if I summarize : - first side : a Gallente scout with a STD cloak ---------> low meta level, low cost - second side : at least three precision enhancer (if you put 2 PRO modules) on a suit with enough slots (depending on races and suits but you may need to go to AVC or PRO) ---------> pretty high meta level and cost Do you see the imbalance ? the counter 1.8 suggest is to use Gallente logi. Again, to scan a STD dampened cloak scout, you'll need 3 AVC or PRO active scanner to be able to always "scan" around. Anyway, I don't think the actual active scanners design allows Gallente logi to efficiently have the ability to counter scouts (slow scanners vs fast scoutsGÇª). That last statement is made from my small experience in scan Gallente logi, comment are welcome as always. The solution I presented is to reduce cloak dampening according to meta level, along with buffing precision enhancers to reach same level as dampeners. Well fitted scouts will still have the advantage on common people (with little to none precision enhancer) while well fitted scan suits will be able to detect low or non dampened scouts. Umm, no, a damped scout should be un scan able, balance Closed beta vet Tears, sweet delicious tears
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 3871	Posted - 2014.04.12 01:40:00 - [14] - Quote You could always just level up eyesight. Once you get it to level 3 you can start skilling situational awareness too. No.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 761	Posted - 2014.04.12 02:10:00 - [15] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: I know this is not exactly on topic but You make a fine chart/graph Would it be a bother for you to put together an Active Scanner vs Dampening chart? Kind of on topic portion of post. The Dampeners vs Precision looks fairly reasonable until you factor in the Active Dampener bonus from the cloak. Scanner could be viewed as the Cloak counter. Though it does not depend on the Precision of the user so much as the cloak depends on the Profile of the userGÇª this is why I am curious about the effectiveness of the Active Scanner vs Cloak. They seem to be direct counters to each other, and I think your graphing would help display any benefits or shortcomings of the numbers. Knowing as well that it would not take into account some factor like the scan field. Wow putting all of that data in one chart is not entirely easy, and I could make the colors better, but I think this is readable. EDIT: Wow I didn't really look at it, you can get a fat suit underneath a non gal logi focused scanner.... that's either hilarious or sad, or both. Fixing swarms
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 761	Posted - 2014.04.12 02:15:00 - [16] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: You could always just level up eyesight. Once you get it to level 3 you can start skilling situational awareness too. Why do my post attract all of the idiots? Seriously why? I mean do you just look at a well written argument with facts and figures, then decide; "Durr.. I guess the only thing left for me to do is pull down my pants and sh-t in the thread... dur...." Seriously, please be an idiot somewhere else. Fixing swarms
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 761	Posted - 2014.04.12 02:18:00 - [17] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Artemis Kaiba wrote: Nothing should be unscannable. A strongly dampening fitted scout should be scannable by a strongly scanning fitted gallente logi (as 1.8 wanted to settle classes). But the problem isn't there. The problem is that you need to use two PRO precision modules (hoping you have the slots) to counter a single STD cloaked scout. If the cloak scout is a Gallente scout, the passive bonus must be compensate by a third precision enhancer. So if I summarize : - first side : a Gallente scout with a STD cloak ---------> low meta level, low cost - second side : at least three precision enhancer (if you put 2 PRO modules) on a suit with enough slots (depending on races and suits but you may need to go to AVC or PRO) ---------> pretty high meta level and cost Do you see the imbalance ? the counter 1.8 suggest is to use Gallente logi. Again, to scan a STD dampened cloak scout, you'll need 3 AVC or PRO active scanner to be able to always "scan" around. Anyway, I don't think the actual active scanners design allows Gallente logi to efficiently have the ability to counter scouts (slow scanners vs fast scoutsGÇª). That last statement is made from my small experience in scan Gallente logi, comment are welcome as always. The solution I presented is to reduce cloak dampening according to meta level, along with buffing precision enhancers to reach same level as dampeners. Well fitted scouts will still have the advantage on common people (with little to none precision enhancer) while well fitted scan suits will be able to detect low or non dampened scouts. Umm, no, a damped scout should be un scan able, balance If you look above, you can see that balance would be perfectly obtained without the bonus the cloaks give. 1 dampner scout will always beat out a 1 precision enhancer scout. 1 dampner gal scout will always beat out a 1 precision enhancer cal scout. Witht he cloak bonus though any hope for ewar balance is thrown out of the window. Fixing swarms
Llast 326 An Arkhos 2846	Posted - 2014.04.12 02:20:00 - [18] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Llast 326 wrote: I know this is not exactly on topic but You make a fine chart/graph Would it be a bother for you to put together an Active Scanner vs Dampening chart? Kind of on topic portion of post. The Dampeners vs Precision looks fairly reasonable until you factor in the Active Dampener bonus from the cloak. Scanner could be viewed as the Cloak counter. Though it does not depend on the Precision of the user so much as the cloak depends on the Profile of the userGÇª this is why I am curious about the effectiveness of the Active Scanner vs Cloak. They seem to be direct counters to each other, and I think your graphing would help display any benefits or shortcomings of the numbers. Knowing as well that it would not take into account some factor like the scan field. Wow putting all of that data in one chart is not entirely easy, and I could make the colors better, but I think this is readable. EDIT: Wow I didn't really look at it, you can get a fat suit underneath a non gal logi focused scanner.... that's either hilarious or sad, or both. Thank you very much for doing that. I find it very readable. Your numbers reflect having Damp at lv 5 correct? (just for reference sake) And yeah the Heavy being able to get under Focused is surprising actually. They do have to give up a lot to do it though I doubt it is worthwhileGÇª but still Going to put some thought into what I am seeing here before commenting much, but it is an eye opener. Thanks again. KRRROOOOOOM
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 761	Posted - 2014.04.12 02:44:00 - [19] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Llast 326 wrote: I know this is not exactly on topic but You make a fine chart/graph Would it be a bother for you to put together an Active Scanner vs Dampening chart? Kind of on topic portion of post. The Dampeners vs Precision looks fairly reasonable until you factor in the Active Dampener bonus from the cloak. Scanner could be viewed as the Cloak counter. Though it does not depend on the Precision of the user so much as the cloak depends on the Profile of the userGÇª this is why I am curious about the effectiveness of the Active Scanner vs Cloak. They seem to be direct counters to each other, and I think your graphing would help display any benefits or shortcomings of the numbers. Knowing as well that it would not take into account some factor like the scan field. Wow putting all of that data in one chart is not entirely easy, and I could make the colors better, but I think this is readable. EDIT: Wow I didn't really look at it, you can get a fat suit underneath a non gal logi focused scanner.... that's either hilarious or sad, or both. Thank you very much for doing that. I find it very readable. Your numbers reflect having Damp at lv 5 correct? (just for reference sake) And yeah the Heavy being able to get under Focused is surprising actually. They do have to give up a lot to do it though I doubt it is worthwhileGÇª but still Going to put some thought into what I am seeing here before commenting much, but it is an eye opener. Thanks again. No problem man. Yes, I always throw figures and stuff out there at max level unless otherwise stated. Oh man I just realized that I didn't equalize the two ranges for the charts. It is a little off. Here is the fixed version, I also updated the original. Fixing swarms
jerrmy12 kahoalii 963	Posted - 2014.04.12 02:48:00 - [20] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Artemis Kaiba wrote: Nothing should be unscannable. A strongly dampening fitted scout should be scannable by a strongly scanning fitted gallente logi (as 1.8 wanted to settle classes). But the problem isn't there. The problem is that you need to use two PRO precision modules (hoping you have the slots) to counter a single STD cloaked scout. If the cloak scout is a Gallente scout, the passive bonus must be compensate by a third precision enhancer. So if I summarize : - first side : a Gallente scout with a STD cloak ---------> low meta level, low cost - second side : at least three precision enhancer (if you put 2 PRO modules) on a suit with enough slots (depending on races and suits but you may need to go to AVC or PRO) ---------> pretty high meta level and cost Do you see the imbalance ? the counter 1.8 suggest is to use Gallente logi. Again, to scan a STD dampened cloak scout, you'll need 3 AVC or PRO active scanner to be able to always "scan" around. Anyway, I don't think the actual active scanners design allows Gallente logi to efficiently have the ability to counter scouts (slow scanners vs fast scoutsGÇª). That last statement is made from my small experience in scan Gallente logi, comment are welcome as always. The solution I presented is to reduce cloak dampening according to meta level, along with buffing precision enhancers to reach same level as dampeners. Well fitted scouts will still have the advantage on common people (with little to none precision enhancer) while well fitted scan suits will be able to detect low or non dampened scouts. Umm, no, a damped scout should be un scan able, balance If you look above, you can see that balance would be perfectly obtained without the bonus the cloaks give. 1 dampner scout will always beat out a 1 precision enhancer scout. 1 dampner gal scout will always beat out a 1 precision enhancer cal scout. Witht he cloak bonus though any hope for ewar balance is thrown out of the window. And so what, a double damoed scout should be un scannable Closed beta vet Tears, sweet delicious tears

Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 763	Posted - 2014.04.12 03:09:00 - [21] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Artemis Kaiba wrote: Nothing should be unscannable. A strongly dampening fitted scout should be scannable by a strongly scanning fitted gallente logi (as 1.8 wanted to settle classes). But the problem isn't there. The problem is that you need to use two PRO precision modules (hoping you have the slots) to counter a single STD cloaked scout. If the cloak scout is a Gallente scout, the passive bonus must be compensate by a third precision enhancer. So if I summarize : - first side : a Gallente scout with a STD cloak ---------> low meta level, low cost - second side : at least three precision enhancer (if you put 2 PRO modules) on a suit with enough slots (depending on races and suits but you may need to go to AVC or PRO) ---------> pretty high meta level and cost Do you see the imbalance ? the counter 1.8 suggest is to use Gallente logi. Again, to scan a STD dampened cloak scout, you'll need 3 AVC or PRO active scanner to be able to always "scan" around. Anyway, I don't think the actual active scanners design allows Gallente logi to efficiently have the ability to counter scouts (slow scanners vs fast scoutsGÇª). That last statement is made from my small experience in scan Gallente logi, comment are welcome as always. The solution I presented is to reduce cloak dampening according to meta level, along with buffing precision enhancers to reach same level as dampeners. Well fitted scouts will still have the advantage on common people (with little to none precision enhancer) while well fitted scan suits will be able to detect low or non dampened scouts. Umm, no, a damped scout should be un scan able, balance If you look above, you can see that balance would be perfectly obtained without the bonus the cloaks give. 1 dampner scout will always beat out a 1 precision enhancer scout. 1 dampner gal scout will always beat out a 1 precision enhancer cal scout. Witht he cloak bonus though any hope for ewar balance is thrown out of the window. And so what, a double damoed scout should be un scannable Did you even look at the graphs... be honest now. Fixing swarms
jerrmy12 kahoalii 964	Posted - 2014.04.12 03:29:00 - [22] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Artemis Kaiba wrote: Nothing should be unscannable. A strongly dampening fitted scout should be scannable by a strongly scanning fitted gallente logi (as 1.8 wanted to settle classes). But the problem isn't there. The problem is that you need to use two PRO precision modules (hoping you have the slots) to counter a single STD cloaked scout. If the cloak scout is a Gallente scout, the passive bonus must be compensate by a third precision enhancer. So if I summarize : - first side : a Gallente scout with a STD cloak ---------> low meta level, low cost - second side : at least three precision enhancer (if you put 2 PRO modules) on a suit with enough slots (depending on races and suits but you may need to go to AVC or PRO) ---------> pretty high meta level and cost Do you see the imbalance ? the counter 1.8 suggest is to use Gallente logi. Again, to scan a STD dampened cloak scout, you'll need 3 AVC or PRO active scanner to be able to always "scan" around. Anyway, I don't think the actual active scanners design allows Gallente logi to efficiently have the ability to counter scouts (slow scanners vs fast scoutsGÇª). That last statement is made from my small experience in scan Gallente logi, comment are welcome as always. The solution I presented is to reduce cloak dampening according to meta level, along with buffing precision enhancers to reach same level as dampeners. Well fitted scouts will still have the advantage on common people (with little to none precision enhancer) while well fitted scan suits will be able to detect low or non dampened scouts. Umm, no, a damped scout should be un scan able, balance If you look above, you can see that balance would be perfectly obtained without the bonus the cloaks give. 1 dampner scout will always beat out a 1 precision enhancer scout. 1 dampner gal scout will always beat out a 1 precision enhancer cal scout. Witht he cloak bonus though any hope for ewar balance is thrown out of the window. And so what, a double damoed scout should be un scannable Did you even look at the graphs... be honest now. Yes, but im saying a scout should be fully invisible to scans. Closed beta vet Tears, sweet delicious tears
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 763	Posted - 2014.04.12 03:35:00 - [23] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Yes, but im saying a scout should be fully invisible to scans. I don't think anyone would agree with you on this. By default, a scout should be below another suits scan precision. If that other suit, a scout for instance, fits in such a way to specifically find that scout, giving up multiple slots to do so, then that player should be able to find a scout. Your logic leads to think like, "well a heavy should be immune to a scout." or worse yet, "a tank should be immune to infantry" These are not pleas for balance, they are request for imbalance. Back to the point, if you were to look at the graphs, you would notice that in order to detect a scout with two dampners on, a fellow scout would have to fit 3 precision enhancers or have a bonus specifically to finding suits (caldari) and have 2 precision enhancers. The gallente suit can become 100% invisible to everything in-game without a cloak. IT is just that it will need to sacrifice to be able to beat another suit that is also sacrificing. There should never be a "fit 2 modules and win" type of system. IT should be a constant struggle. EDIT: I fully expect a response to ignore 95% of what I said btw. Fixing swarms
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui The Containment Unit 540	Posted - 2014.04.12 03:57:00 - [24] - Quote Artemis Kaiba wrote: Nothing should be unscannable. A strongly dampening fitted scout should be scannable by a strongly scanning fitted gallente logi (as 1.8 wanted to settle classes). Don't forget that a Cal scout " SHOULD " be able to see that scout and not the counter of that scout being from the same race , how is that balanced ??? A Cal shout that is enhanced and has ranger's or just enhanced to the counter of that scout should be able to see that scout . I shouldn't have to skill into Gal Logi , while being Caldari .. to see a highly dampened Gal scout . A few people who had done some incredible work on that topic , pointed out that flaw .. and CCP " SHOULD " fix that . Stop asking for tiercide , your killing variety and the fun of this game at the same dam time .
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 112	Posted - 2014.04.12 03:57:00 - [25] - Quote I run precision mods on a CalScout. Not much gets by. Would I mind if Precision Enhancers got buffed or cloak dampening bonus were downgraded? Nah. I wouldn't mind at all. PS: GalScout and CalScout are very well balanced against one another. They keep each other in check. Fcking around with things should be done delicately if at all, else the scale will be tipped one way or another. Promise. Bang?*
Seeth Mensch Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 184	Posted - 2014.04.12 03:59:00 - [26] - Quote keno trader wrote: Tis' true. Right now the gallente scout is slightly OP due to the fact it can just about evade anything and everything. But running in a group is a fact of life now I suppose. Isn't it supposed to be that way? I get gunned down all the time by you damn gangs! Hi! Gosh, I've missed you...with every bullet, plasma shot, rail gun, and missile.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 763	Posted - 2014.04.12 04:19:00 - [27] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: Artemis Kaiba wrote: Nothing should be unscannable. A strongly dampening fitted scout should be scannable by a strongly scanning fitted gallente logi (as 1.8 wanted to settle classes). Don't forget that a Cal scout " SHOULD " be able to see that scout and not the counter of that scout being from the same race , how is that balanced ??? A Cal scout that is enhanced and has ranger's or just enhanced " SHOULD " be a counter of that scout should be able to see that scout depending on the role bonus plus the personal bonus from the skill tree and the applied mods . I shouldn't have to skill into Gal Logi , while being Caldari .. to see a highly dampened Gal scout . A few people who had done some incredible work on that topic , pointed out that flaw .. and CCP " SHOULD " fix that . I am not 100% sure what you are trying to say here. I can tell you it is obvious by the stock stats of the suits that with all other things being equal, 1 damp should hide you from 1 enhancer. This also means a 4 damp gallente scout should be able to hide from a 4 enhancer caldari scout. The free non-stacking-penalty complex dampner that comes attached to the cloaking device is messing up that ewar balance. Adipem Nothi wrote: I run precision mods on a CalScout. Not much gets by. Would I mind if Precision Enhancers got buffed or cloak dampening bonus were downgraded? Nah. I wouldn't mind at all. PS: GalScout and CalScout are very well balanced against one another. They keep each other in check. Fcking around with things should be done delicately if at all, else the scale will be tipped one way or another. Promise. Another guy who didn't look at the charts. Cal scout's ewar is perfectly balanced against gal scout, when you take away the free non-stacking-penalty complex damping module on the cloak. Seeth Mensch wrote:* keno trader wrote: Tis' true. Right now the gallente scout is slightly OP due to the fact it can just about evade anything and everything. But running in a group is a fact of life now I suppose. Isn't it supposed to be that way? I get gunned down all the time by you damn gangs! and another. The gallente scout is supposed to, and is able to completely evade all scans without the the free non-stacking-penalty complex dampner on the cloak. Fixing swarms
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 115	Posted - 2014.04.12 04:25:00 - [28] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Another guy who didn't look at the charts. Cal scout's ewar is perfectly balanced against gal scout, when you take away the free non-stacking-penalty complex damping module on the cloak. Why would I look at your chart when I can look at your Amarr Head? PS: My CalScout super vision is shared with my squad. Does that play a part in your chart? Bang?
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 3880	Posted - 2014.04.12 04:32:00 - [29] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: You could always just level up eyesight. Once you get it to level 3 you can start skilling situational awareness too. Why do my post attract all of the idiots? Seriously why? I mean do you just look at a well written argument with facts and figures, then decide; "Durr.. I guess the only thing left for me to do is pull down my pants and sh-t in the thread... dur...." Seriously, please be an idiot somewhere else. Sorry, I think you may have failed to notice my point. Which is quite fitting really. Get good scrub. No.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 764	Posted - 2014.04.12 04:37:00 - [30] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Another guy who didn't look at the charts. Cal scout's ewar is perfectly balanced against gal scout, when you take away the free non-stacking-penalty complex damping module on the cloak. Why would I look at your chart when I can look at your Amarr Head? PS: My CalScout super vision is shared with my squad. Does that play a part in your chart? Why would I care to reply to your post with an answer when you can't actually read mine? Fixing swarms

Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 764	Posted - 2014.04.12 04:39:00 - [31] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: You could always just level up eyesight. Once you get it to level 3 you can start skilling situational awareness too. Why do my post attract all of the idiots? Seriously why? I mean do you just look at a well written argument with facts and figures, then decide; "Durr.. I guess the only thing left for me to do is pull down my pants and sh-t in the thread... dur...." Seriously, please be an idiot somewhere else. Sorry, I think you may have failed to notice my point. Which is really no point at all because what I am trying to say is 100% unprovable and hence a non-point really. I actually sound just like tankers, saying "get gud" because I am terribly afraid that loosing my crutch will make me horrible at dust again. Fixed your post for you. Have fun talking to yourself douchebag. /ignore Fixing swarms
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 117	Posted - 2014.04.12 04:49:00 - [32] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Another guy who didn't look at the charts. Cal scout's ewar is perfectly balanced against gal scout, when you take away the free non-stacking-penalty complex damping module on the cloak. Why would I look at your chart when I can look at your Amarr Head? PS: My CalScout super vision is shared with my squad. Does that play a part in your chart? Why would I care to reply to your post with an answer when you can't actually read mine? Your chart over-simplifies combat dynamics. Your position presumes that cloak being difficult to detect by MedFrames is a bad thing. Which it isn't. If you want to harp on something being OP -- which is actually OP -- then why aren't we talking about tanks? Bang?
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 648	Posted - 2014.04.12 04:55:00 - [33] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: You could always just level up eyesight. Once you get it to level 3 you can start skilling situational awareness too. What are shared passive scans? Oh wait, you're probably one of those people who run solo all the time all while complaining about one thing or another. Go get your eyesight leveled up, you'll need it for when you have no one covering your back Mmmm Scout ak.0 Projects: TDBS \| SDETool
Athena Sentinel SOE Knights Templar 246	Posted - 2014.04.12 04:57:00 - [34] - Quote Just another QQ post - L2P -1
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 766	Posted - 2014.04.12 05:05:00 - [35] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Another guy who didn't look at the charts. Cal scout's ewar is perfectly balanced against gal scout, when you take away the free non-stacking-penalty complex damping module on the cloak. Why would I look at your chart when I can look at your Amarr Head? PS: My CalScout super vision is shared with my squad. Does that play a part in your chart? Why would I care to reply to your post with an answer when you can't actually read mine? Your chart over-simplifies combat dynamics. Your position presumes that cloak being difficult to detect by MedFrames is a bad thing. Which it isn't. If you want to harp on something being OP -- which is actually OP -- then why aren't we talking about tanks? You have said all of this and you still haven't even looked at the charts, that is HILARIOUS. My m,ention of medium suits in the OP was in response to idiots claiming that precision enhancers on medium suits helps at all. My position is that the free non-stacking-penalized complex dampening module that is attached to the cloak throws off a (previously) balanced ewar system between dampening and passive scanning. This system had dampening always trumping passive scanning given an equal amount of modules, but passive scanning was still viable without a bonus. This free module not only cheapens any/all investment into profile dampening, but also relegates passive scanning to only the caldari scout due to the way stacking penalties work. The free non-stacking penalized complex profile dampener makes it so that one ewar specialized module can defeat two. This only limits gameplay, marginalizes a role, and creates a "best fit." This is exactly like the OPness of tanks, and the problems that I have with them are well known. Fixing swarms
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 3883	Posted - 2014.04.12 15:25:00 - [36] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: You could always just level up eyesight. Once you get it to level 3 you can start skilling situational awareness too. Why do my post attract all of the idiots? Seriously why? I mean do you just look at a well written argument with facts and figures, then decide; "Durr.. I guess the only thing left for me to do is pull down my pants and sh-t in the thread... dur...." Seriously, please be an idiot somewhere else. Sorry, I think you may have failed to notice my point. Which is really no point at all because what I am trying to say is 100% unprovable and hence a non-point really. I actually sound just like tankers, saying "get gud" because I am terribly afraid that loosing my crutch will make me horrible at dust again. Fixed your post for you. Have fun talking to yourself douchebag. /ignore This entire thread is a failure Mag. Look at the quality of your responses. It's time to let it go. No.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 3883	Posted - 2014.04.12 15:27:00 - [37] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: You could always just level up eyesight. Once you get it to level 3 you can start skilling situational awareness too. What are shared passive scans? Oh wait, you're probably one of those people who run solo all the time all while complaining about one thing or another. Go get your eyesight leveled up, you'll need it for when you have no one covering your back I'm sorry, I don't follow. If I run solo all the time, then I don't have people covering my back. Am I missing some sarcasm here? No.
Toby Flenderson research lab 467	Posted - 2014.04.12 15:33:00 - [38] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: This is a ridiculous statement made by some people. Let me show you why: Hover zoom or clicky The above bar graph shows how precision enhancers are mostly underpowered because of the added dampening of the cloak. Oh and for all of you guys saying fit precision enhancers on medium/heavy suits(logi for the graph): Hover zoom or clicky Stop saying that, it is not a good idea. TLDR: First link shows how scouts precision lines up with dampening. Cloaks make dampening too strong Second link shows why precision enhancers on mediums or above is stupid. EDIT: Here is the point of it all. If you look at that graph, there is no bonus to cloaks. All of the sudden, Ewar is balanced once again between the scouts (although balance between scouts and other suits in the ewar department is still wonky) Not every scout uses dampeners. Another scout who loads precision enhancers can see most other scouts, except of course for those countering with dampeners. Just because there is a fitting that counters precision doesn't mean that fitting each number of mods is UP. It just means you have to be a step or two ahead of them, and if they choose to dampen as well then you're out of luck. You shouldn't see cloaked scouts easily, thought I do think the bonus from cloaks is too much.
Toby Flenderson research lab 467	Posted - 2014.04.12 15:43:00 - [39] - Quote it also looks like a logi with 2 precision mods can see a cloaked non-gallente scout with no dampeners. Does this really need to be easier? Sacrificing one module to counter 75% of scouts is way too easy, so they require 2 to counter them. The scout can choose to beat this counter by sacrificing 1 module for a dampener. If people are still complaining about how hard it is to spot a dampened/cloaked scout then they clearly picked the wrong suit. It's actually funny how no one seemed to care about passive scans and didn't pick their suits accordingly. Now there are threads all over the place "my medium suit can't see scouts = scouts are OP". It's like if a scout said "I can't take on a heavy in a gunfight = heavies are OP".
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 770	Posted - 2014.04.12 19:12:00 - [40] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: This is a ridiculous statement made by some people. Let me show you why: Hover zoom or clicky The above bar graph shows how precision enhancers are mostly underpowered because of the added dampening of the cloak. Oh and for all of you guys saying fit precision enhancers on medium/heavy suits(logi for the graph): Hover zoom or clicky Stop saying that, it is not a good idea. TLDR: First link shows how scouts precision lines up with dampening. Cloaks make dampening too strong Second link shows why precision enhancers on mediums or above is stupid. EDIT: Here is the point of it all. If you look at that graph, there is no bonus to cloaks. All of the sudden, Ewar is balanced once again between the scouts (although balance between scouts and other suits in the ewar department is still wonky) Not every scout uses dampeners. Another scout who loads precision enhancers can see most other scouts, except of course for those countering with dampeners. Just because there is a fitting that counters precision doesn't mean that fitting each number of mods is UP. It just means you have to be a step or two ahead of them, and if they choose to dampen as well then you're out of luck. You shouldn't see cloaked scouts easily, thought I do think the bonus from cloaks is too much. What is on display, and what I take issue with, is that by fitting one module in addition to the cloak, a scout becomes unscannable to all but one suit. That is not tactical, there is no interplay between precision enhancement and dampening. It becomes an analog function, either you are sometimes seen or never seen, that is it. This is not balance. Toby Flenderson wrote: it also looks like a logi with 2 precision mods can see a cloaked non-gallente scout with no dampeners. Does this really need to be easier? Sacrificing one module to counter 75% of scouts is way too easy, so they require 2 to counter them. The scout can choose to beat this counter by sacrificing 1 module for a dampener. If people are still complaining about how hard it is to spot a dampened/cloaked scout then they clearly picked the wrong suit. It's actually funny how no one seemed to care about passive scans and didn't pick their suits accordingly. Now there are threads all over the place "my medium suit can't see scouts = scouts are OP". It's like if a scout said "I can't take on a heavy in a gunfight = heavies are OP". no you are making a false statement. I am not arguing that other suits should have an easy time seeing scouts, I am arguing that ewar as it is is completely messed up thanks to the non-stacking-penalized complex dampener that comes for free with an already powerful module. CCP obviously chose the precision and profile levels of each suit in order to establish a type of interplay between the suits when it comes to ewar. If you do not get that free complex damp, the interplay appears well thought out and balanced. With the free complex dampener from the cloak, there is no longer any type of interplay, damp + cloak >>>>> anything (ewar wise). Fixing swarms

deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 649	Posted - 2014.04.12 19:24:00 - [41] - Quote Artemis Kaiba wrote: Nothing should be unscannable. well the alternative is to have something that can scan everything and nothing should be able to scan everything It'll help define roles, i promise:)
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1106	Posted - 2014.04.12 19:33:00 - [42] - Quote A gal scout with 2 damps and a cloak is seriously gimped on slots, and spare CPU. If the Gal scout has 2 damps, 2 precisions, and a Range amp, then he has 1 slot for actual tank/speed. Just carry a Fused locus, Mass driver, or Plasma Cannon, or :o SLEEK LOCUSES!? Also if you have Eyesight Operation level 1, you can SEE the invisible scout. I ran heavy yesterday, minmatar nonetheless(even max tanked, takes 2 shotty rounds to kill me) and i can kill 95% of the scouts that think they can kill me. General John Ripper is my 2nd best friend!
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 771	Posted - 2014.04.12 19:33:00 - [43] - Quote deepfried salad gilliam wrote: Artemis Kaiba wrote: Nothing should be unscannable. well the alternative is to have something that can scan everything and nothing should be able to scan everything Come one guys, we went over this. CCP has already established an ewar system where by everything else being equal 1 suit + 1 damp beats 1 suit + 1 enhancer. I mean it is quite balanced without the free complex damp on the cloak: suit (base damp) > suit (base enhancement) suit (base damp) < suit+ enhancer suit + damp > suit + enhancer Suit + damp < suit + 2 enhancers suit + 2damps > suit + 2 enhancers That is balanced. Now it is suit (base damp) > suit (base enhancement) suit + cloak > suit + enhancer suit + cloak +damp > suit + 3 enhancers Since the cloak already has it's own POWERFUL function, adding on this extra ewar just serves to unbalance ewar. Fixing swarms
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 771	Posted - 2014.04.12 19:40:00 - [44] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: A gal scout with 2 damps and a cloak is seriously gimped on slots, and spare CPU. If the Gal scout has 2 damps, 2 precisions, and a Range amp, then he has 1 slot for actual tank/speed. Just carry a Fused locus, Mass driver, or Plasma Cannon, or :o SLEEK LOCUSES!? Also if you have Eyesight Operation level 1, you can SEE the invisible scout. I ran heavy yesterday, minmatar nonetheless(even max tanked, takes 2 shotty rounds to kill me) and i can kill 95% of the scouts that think they can kill me. What kind of horsesh-t argument is this? If a suit has a cloak + 2 dampners it is invisible to a suit that sacrifices 4 modules. That is not balanced. There is no interplay between ewar there, just damp >>>>>>>>>>> scanning. We weren't even talking about the invisibilty of cloaks here, we were PURELY talking about ewar interplay. Cloaks should not have a free dampener attached to them. This completely upsets a PREVIOUSLY BALANCED SYSTEM. I mean it would be like throwing a free non-stacking-penalized precision enhancer on top of a active scanner, oh and make the scanner last for between 30-90 seconds. Not only would it make absolutely no sense, but it would seriously damage ewar balance. Take your eyes argument somewhere else where some idiot might actually lend credence to it (you know, like people soloing tanks with militia AV consistently and stuff.) Fixing swarms
RKKR The Southern Legion League of Infamy 905	Posted - 2014.04.12 19:48:00 - [45] - Quote If people should use eyesights instead of precion enhancers...then why did we need cloaks in the first place? Use walls to hide behind to be stealthy. It was already obvious how blind some (scan-frenzy) people were pre-1.8. Oooh that's right...you probably couldn't use a scout suit without a cloak.
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1983	Posted - 2014.04.12 19:54:00 - [46] - Quote Kinda the point of the Gal Scout. You know, hides from everything. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 771	Posted - 2014.04.12 19:57:00 - [47] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Kinda the point of the Gal Scout. You know, hides from everything. So I guess this means that you 100% agree with what I have said. Fixing swarms
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1985	Posted - 2014.04.12 19:59:00 - [48] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: deepfried salad gilliam wrote: Artemis Kaiba wrote: Nothing should be unscannable. well the alternative is to have something that can scan everything and nothing should be able to scan everything Come one guys, we went over this. CCP has already established an ewar system where by everything else being equal 1 suit + 1 damp beats 1 suit + 1 enhancer. I mean it is quite balanced without the free complex damp on the cloak: suit (base damp) > suit (base enhancement) suit (base damp) < suit+ enhancer suit + damp > suit + enhancer Suit + damp < suit + 2 enhancers suit + 2damps > suit + 2 enhancers That is balanced. Now it is suit (base damp) > suit (base enhancement) suit + cloak > suit + enhancer suit + cloak +damp > suit + 3 enhancers Since the cloak already has it's own POWERFUL function, adding on this extra ewar just serves to unbalance ewar. I'm fine with that going away. it wasn't needed tbh. it just makes it to where any scout can hide as good as a Gal scout. Also, a lot of EWAR **** needs to come in. I would like to see jamming, as well as tackling come in. And a second suit for it to be bonused for. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1985	Posted - 2014.04.12 20:01:00 - [49] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Kinda the point of the Gal Scout. You know, hides from everything. So I guess this means that you 100% agree with what I have said.I mean what you have written is so entirely vague, and doesn't conflict with what I have said so I assume you mean to agree. From what I got from your response is "take away the dampen bonus from the cloak", as well as his argument was garbage. If so, yea, I do. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 772	Posted - 2014.04.12 20:01:00 - [50] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: deepfried salad gilliam wrote: Artemis Kaiba wrote: Nothing should be unscannable. well the alternative is to have something that can scan everything and nothing should be able to scan everything Come one guys, we went over this. CCP has already established an ewar system where by everything else being equal 1 suit + 1 damp beats 1 suit + 1 enhancer. I mean it is quite balanced without the free complex damp on the cloak: suit (base damp) > suit (base enhancement) suit (base damp) < suit+ enhancer suit + damp > suit + enhancer Suit + damp < suit + 2 enhancers suit + 2damps > suit + 2 enhancers That is balanced. Now it is suit (base damp) > suit (base enhancement) suit + cloak > suit + enhancer suit + cloak +damp > suit + 3 enhancers Since the cloak already has it's own POWERFUL function, adding on this extra ewar just serves to unbalance ewar. I'm fine with that going away. it wasn't needed tbh. it just makes it to where any scout can hide as good as a Gal scout. Also, a lot of EWAR **** needs to come in. I would like to see jamming, as well as tackling come in. And a second suit for it to be bonused for. I agree, that would be pretty awesome, I just don't want CCP to move on to more types of ewar until they have re-established balance with this one. I mean it was balanced so well for so long, but now all of the sudden it isn't and the fix is so incredibly simple. Fixing swarms

Clone D 184	Posted - 2014.04.12 20:01:00 - [51] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Cloaks make dampening too strong Second link shows why precision enhancers on mediums or above is stupid. I've been saying this since cloaks came to town. .
Llast 326 An Arkhos 2865	Posted - 2014.04.12 20:02:00 - [52] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: deepfried salad gilliam wrote: Artemis Kaiba wrote: Nothing should be unscannable. well the alternative is to have something that can scan everything and nothing should be able to scan everything Come one guys, we went over this. CCP has already established an ewar system where by everything else being equal 1 suit + 1 damp beats 1 suit + 1 enhancer. I mean it is quite balanced without the free complex damp on the cloak: suit (base damp) > suit (base enhancement) suit (base damp) < suit+ enhancer suit + damp > suit + enhancer Suit + damp < suit + 2 enhancers suit + 2damps > suit + 2 enhancers That is balanced. Now it is suit (base damp) > suit (base enhancement) suit + cloak > suit + enhancer suit + cloak +damp > suit + 3 enhancers Since the cloak already has it's own POWERFUL function, adding on this extra ewar just serves to unbalance ewar. Factor in the Active scanner, which does effectively counter most of the cloak bonus and it comes closer to balanced in it's current incarnation. The fact that one piece of equipment can be used to counter the cloak without the need for precision enhancers (which is actually what should be used on the Medium and Commandos, rather than the "add precision enhancers" argument you point out in the OP) works to counter the cloak. Should all tiers of cloak add a Complex DampenerGÇª probably not changing the bonus by tier would help. Personally I thought that they would introduce the cloak as a visual EWAR, and add an Active Dampener to counter the Active scanner, but that was a long time ago that I had that thought, when scanners were ubiquitous. I still think an Active Dampener would create a more interesting EWAR interplay, and hope that CCP separates the Cloak from the Damp bonus to create a Signal Scrambler piece of equipment. KRRROOOOOOM
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 772	Posted - 2014.04.12 20:11:00 - [53] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: deepfried salad gilliam wrote: Artemis Kaiba wrote: Nothing should be unscannable. well the alternative is to have something that can scan everything and nothing should be able to scan everything Come one guys, we went over this. CCP has already established an ewar system where by everything else being equal 1 suit + 1 damp beats 1 suit + 1 enhancer. I mean it is quite balanced without the free complex damp on the cloak: suit (base damp) > suit (base enhancement) suit (base damp) < suit+ enhancer suit + damp > suit + enhancer Suit + damp < suit + 2 enhancers suit + 2damps > suit + 2 enhancers That is balanced. Now it is suit (base damp) > suit (base enhancement) suit + cloak > suit + enhancer suit + cloak +damp > suit + 3 enhancers Since the cloak already has it's own POWERFUL function, adding on this extra ewar just serves to unbalance ewar. Factor in the Active scanner, which does effectively counter most of the cloak bonus and it comes closer to balanced in it's current incarnation. The fact that one piece of equipment can be used to counter the cloak without the need for precision enhancers (which is actually what should be used on the Medium and Commandos, rather than the "add precision enhancers" argument you point out in the OP) works to counter the cloak. Should all tiers of cloak add a Complex DampenerGÇª probably not changing the bonus by tier would help. Personally I thought that they would introduce the cloak as a visual EWAR, and add an Active Dampener to counter the Active scanner, but that was a long time ago that I had that thought, when scanners were ubiquitous. I still think an Active Dampener would create a more interesting EWAR interplay, and hope that CCP separates the Cloak from the Damp bonus to create a Signal Scrambler piece of equipment. As for your first paragraph, did you see the graph I posted early after someone requested it? Here it is again. This shows that without fitting for ewar in the least, just by fitting a peice of equipment meant to visually conceal you, you also get to counter-act all but the prototype advanced active scanners. Also I am unsure of what exactly you are trying to state there in the first paragraph. The cloak is meant to conceal you visually. The active/passive scanners and dampeners are meant to conceal you electronically. I mean you could argue that the active scanner should change it's role to counter-act cloaked suits, but that would be a different thread I think. I am purely concerned with the electronic scanning/concealment interplay in this thread, and how the cloak has completely screwed it up. Fixing swarms
LittleCuteBunny 413	Posted - 2014.04.12 20:20:00 - [54] - Quote Scouts... - Caldari Scouts needs to use 3 Complex Precision Enhancers to detect a Gallente Scout that is not using dampening modules but is in cloak. - Gallente Scout just needs to use 1 Complex Dampener to be undetectable while being cloaked and if the bonus was ever removed from the cloak vests, he could just use 2 Complex Dampeners and be undetectable again. - Caldari Scout was meant to be the "Scout Hunter", but even if it used 4 complex precision enhancers it will never detect a Gallente Scout with 2 Dampeners or 1 Dampener+Cloak Gallente Logi... - CCP wanted it to detect almost everything, except those dampened scouts. - Being able to detect almost everything, lots of EHP and lots of equipment slots (strong enough) Either way you look at a fix, Gallente wins :) Retired.
Dauth Jenkins Ultramarine Corp 478	Posted - 2014.04.12 20:37:00 - [55] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Precision mods are for scouts; instead, use your eye-holes and keep track of your teammates. If a blue dot mysteriously vanishes from the radar, look out. Lol, half the time that's just them disappearing from my radar, and their still actually there. -Sincerely --The Dual Swarm Commando
Matticus Monk Ordus Trismegistus 1668	Posted - 2014.04.12 21:13:00 - [56] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I am purely concerned with the electronic scanning/concealment interplay in this thread, and how the cloak has completely screwed it up. I agree with you here in one sense, however completely removing the dampening bonus from cloaks will leave many a suit vulnerable to caldari scouts given their precision bonus and copious high slots. I would be ok with this if we didn't have shared squad vision, which essentially gives that bonus to everyone in squad.... Take for instance the Cal scout with 3 PEs + inherent bonus v.s. a Min scout with 3 damps.... Cal (and their squad) wins. Same for all except the Gal with their damp bonus if they are stacking 3 damps. Medium and Heavy frames wouldn't stand a chance. I like the tiered dampening bonus to cloak idea that I think I read earlier back. Initially I didn't like the fact that cloaks added a free dampening function, when engaged, but given how powerful the Caldari precision is and the shared squad sight I really think CCP needs to think hard about altering it too drastically. Otherwise, once that Cal scout is in the city and immobile, with their 70m scan radius covering 2 objectives.... game over for the most part, unless you bring in the an entire squad of uber dampened Gallente scouts.... which I'm sure would get decimated pretty fast if the rest of the players on the Cal squad had any situational awareness - as unlike the gallente they wouldn't be sacrificing any slots for EWAR since they would be piggybacking on the one Caldari scout. Double posting like a Kaiser.
Poonmunch Sanguis Defense Syndicate 835	Posted - 2014.04.12 21:18:00 - [57] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: This is a ridiculous statement made by some people. Let me show you why: Hover zoom or clicky The above bar graph shows how precision enhancers are mostly underpowered because of the added dampening of the cloak. Oh and for all of you guys saying fit precision enhancers on medium/heavy suits(logi for the graph): Hover zoom or clicky Stop saying that, it is not a good idea. TLDR: First link shows how scouts precision lines up with dampening. Cloaks make dampening too strong Second link shows why precision enhancers on mediums or above is stupid. EDIT: Here is the point of it all. If you look at that graph, there is no bonus to cloaks. All of the sudden, Ewar is balanced once again between the scouts (although balance between scouts and other suits in the ewar department is still wonky) Precision enhancers are great for sniping. Munch Minmatar Patriot (Level 7) Dedicated Sniper
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 2242	Posted - 2014.04.12 21:19:00 - [58] - Quote It's the Gallente's specialty. We have to get under the Caldari's radar lol I do, agree, that the cloak dampning is too damn high, though.
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1112	Posted - 2014.04.12 21:19:00 - [59] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: A gal scout with 2 damps and a cloak is seriously gimped on slots, and spare CPU. If the Gal scout has 2 damps, 2 precisions, and a Range amp, then he has 1 slot for actual tank/speed. Just carry a Fused locus, Mass driver, or Plasma Cannon, or :o SLEEK LOCUSES!? Also if you have Eyesight Operation level 1, you can SEE the invisible scout. I ran heavy yesterday, minmatar nonetheless(even max tanked, takes 2 shotty rounds to kill me) and i can kill 95% of the scouts that think they can kill me. What kind of horsesh-t argument is this? If a suit has a cloak + 2 dampners it is invisible to a suit that sacrifices 4 modules. That is not balanced. There is no interplay between ewar there, just damp >>>>>>>>>>> scanning. We weren't even talking about the invisibilty of cloaks here, we were PURELY talking about ewar interplay. Cloaks should not have a free dampener attached to them. This completely upsets a PREVIOUSLY BALANCED SYSTEM. I mean it would be like throwing a free non-stacking-penalized precision enhancer on top of a active scanner, oh and make the scanner last for between 30-90 seconds. Not only would it make absolutely no sense, but it would seriously damage ewar balance. Take your eyes argument somewhere else where some idiot might actually lend credence to it (you know, like people soloing tanks with militia AV consistently and stuff.) What i'm getting at, it a scout stacking damps doesn't have the HP to survive against a bricked scout, or any heavy worth his salt. While a cloaked damp scout is definitely a threat, it's not uncounterable. General John Ripper is my 2nd best friend!
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 776	Posted - 2014.04.12 21:24:00 - [60] - Quote Matticus Monk wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I am purely concerned with the electronic scanning/concealment interplay in this thread, and how the cloak has completely screwed it up. I agree with you here in one sense, however completely removing the dampening bonus from cloaks will leave many a suit vulnerable to caldari scouts given their precision bonus and copious high slots. I would be ok with this if we didn't have shared squad vision, which essentially gives that bonus to everyone in squad.... Take for instance the Cal scout with 3 PEs + inherent bonus v.s. a Min scout with 3 damps.... Cal (and their squad) wins. Same for all except the Gal with their damp bonus if they are stacking 3 damps. Medium and Heavy frames wouldn't stand a chance. I like the tiered dampening bonus to cloak idea that I think I read earlier back. Initially I didn't like the fact that cloaks added a free dampening function, when engaged, but given how powerful the Caldari precision is and the shared squad sight I really think CCP needs to think hard about altering it too drastically. Otherwise, once that Cal scout is in the city and immobile, with their 70m scan radius covering 2 objectives.... game over for the most part, unless you bring in the an entire squad of uber dampened Gallente scouts.... which I'm sure would get decimated pretty fast if the rest of the players on the Cal squad had any situational awareness - as unlike the gallente infiltration horde, they wouldn't be sacrificing any slots for EWAR since they would be piggybacking on the one Caldari scout. 1) Passive scans are not shared between squad members. 2) in order to defeat almost all dampeners for suits, the caldari scout will have to fit 3 precision enhancers, meaning it dies to a stern stare. The gallente scout will always be able to be invisible to the caldari scout, and with two precision enhancers willpretty much always be able to see the caldari scout. 3) The point of the bonus is so that caldari scouts can be scout hunters. 3 PEs caldari can see a 3 dampner minmatar scout, but only the scout will be able to see them. Sure you could have the scout on comms shouting out positions, good luck with that. Also, 1 gallente scout properly fit = death to all caldari scouts fit for purely scanning. 4) In your scenerio, the caldari scout has at most 300 HP, and dies instantly to nearly everything. It does not share vision with anyone, and is completely blind to a gallente scout. I think your apprehension is based upon shared passive vision. Only the results of active scanners are shared by the squad. Fixing swarms

Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 777	Posted - 2014.04.12 21:29:00 - [61] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: A gal scout with 2 damps and a cloak is seriously gimped on slots, and spare CPU. If the Gal scout has 2 damps, 2 precisions, and a Range amp, then he has 1 slot for actual tank/speed. Just carry a Fused locus, Mass driver, or Plasma Cannon, or :o SLEEK LOCUSES!? Also if you have Eyesight Operation level 1, you can SEE the invisible scout. I ran heavy yesterday, minmatar nonetheless(even max tanked, takes 2 shotty rounds to kill me) and i can kill 95% of the scouts that think they can kill me. What kind of horsesh-t argument is this? If a suit has a cloak + 2 dampners it is invisible to a suit that sacrifices 4 modules. That is not balanced. There is no interplay between ewar there, just damp >>>>>>>>>>> scanning. We weren't even talking about the invisibilty of cloaks here, we were PURELY talking about ewar interplay. Cloaks should not have a free dampener attached to them. This completely upsets a PREVIOUSLY BALANCED SYSTEM. I mean it would be like throwing a free non-stacking-penalized precision enhancer on top of a active scanner, oh and make the scanner last for between 30-90 seconds. Not only would it make absolutely no sense, but it would seriously damage ewar balance. Take your eyes argument somewhere else where some idiot might actually lend credence to it (you know, like people soloing tanks with militia AV consistently and stuff.) What i'm getting at, it a scout stacking damps doesn't have the HP to survive against a bricked scout, or any heavy worth his salt. While a cloaked damp scout is definitely a threat, it's not uncounterable. So what you are saying is that you don't like the fact that to specialize in ewar, you can no longer be a hybrid assault at the same time? Isn't that what the entire fitting system is based around? Making sacrifices to one type of play in order to excel at another. This is also the reason why the cloak is unbalanced as long as it has a free non-stacking-penalized complex dampening mod on it. You want to be completely invisible... well say goodbye to speed and HP. You want to have the best HP? Say goodbye to stealth and speed. You want the best speed? Say goodbye to HP and stealth. If you want to be midly good at one of those things, then you can be midly bad at the others. You can also design a suit that is ok at everything. I mean you are honestly not trying to argue against this type of balancing are you? Fixing swarms
Matticus Monk Ordus Trismegistus 1668	Posted - 2014.04.12 21:30:00 - [62] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: 1) Passive scans are not shared between squad members. 2) in order to defeat almost all dampeners for suits, the caldari scout will have to fit 3 precision enhancers, meaning it dies to a stern stare. The gallente scout will always be able to be invisible to the caldari scout, and with two precision enhancers willpretty much always be able to see the caldari scout. 3) The point of the bonus is so that caldari scouts can be scout hunters. 3 PEs caldari can see a 3 dampner minmatar scout, but only the scout will be able to see them. Sure you could have the scout on comms shouting out positions, good luck with that. Also, 1 gallente scout properly fit = death to all caldari scouts fit for purely scanning. 4) In your scenerio, the caldari scout has at most 300 HP, and dies instantly to nearly everything. It does not share vision with anyone, and is completely blind to a gallente scout. I think your apprehension is based upon shared passive vision. Only the results of active scanners are shared by the squad. You are right, my apprehension is completely based on the assumption that passive squad vision was shared, which I thought it was ( I thought we had confirmed this, but I could be wrong.) I have no issue with the interplay you propose if cloak dampening is removed, provided shared squad vision for passive scans is not in the game. In that case caldari does pay the price to pick up dampened scouts (using PE), and other scouts pay the price to stay dampened (using PDs). Double posting like a Kaiser.
Asha Starwind 794	Posted - 2014.04.12 22:37:00 - [63] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Another guy who didn't look at the charts. Cal scout's ewar is perfectly balanced against gal scout, when you take away the free non-stacking-penalty complex damping module on the cloak. Why would I look at your chart when I can see plain as day that you have an Amarr Head? PS: My CalScout super vision is shared with my squad. Does that play a part in your chart? In that aspect the CalScout is pretty worthless, for that I'd rollout Quote: Scout gk.0 2x Comp Precision Enh 1x Comp Damp 2x Comp Range whatever in 4th '-' slot(3rd Comp range or 2nd Comp damp(total invis)) whatever in L slot whatever in S slot Cloak whatever in Eq 2 slot 1 - Gal Scout will see any uncloaked non-gal scout that isn't heavily damped. For the Cal scout to avoid this dragnet it has to fit 2x comp damps and sacrifice it's range and still can't see the Gal Scout unless fitted with 3+ enhancers. The the squad with the ewar focused gal scout will always outmaneuver one with an ewar focused Cal scout it simply is no contest. Mad Bomber - 50% less profile Return dumbfire to Swarms
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 4168	Posted - 2014.04.12 22:43:00 - [64] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: You could always just level up eyesight. Once you get it to level 3 you can start skilling situational awareness too. You're the only other person on the whole forums I've EVER seen use the word "Situational awareness". 3/4ths of the dust playerbase would be TERRIBLE pilots I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost I hack at Mach V
Llast 326 An Arkhos 2871	Posted - 2014.04.13 00:46:00 - [65] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Llast 326 wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: deepfried salad gilliam wrote: Artemis Kaiba wrote: Nothing should be unscannable. well the alternative is to have something that can scan everything and nothing should be able to scan everything Come one guys, we went over this. CCP has already established an ewar system where by everything else being equal 1 suit + 1 damp beats 1 suit + 1 enhancer. I mean it is quite balanced without the free complex damp on the cloak: suit (base damp) > suit (base enhancement) suit (base damp) < suit+ enhancer suit + damp > suit + enhancer Suit + damp < suit + 2 enhancers suit + 2damps > suit + 2 enhancers That is balanced. Now it is suit (base damp) > suit (base enhancement) suit + cloak > suit + enhancer suit + cloak +damp > suit + 3 enhancers Since the cloak already has it's own POWERFUL function, adding on this extra ewar just serves to unbalance ewar. Factor in the Active scanner, which does effectively counter most of the cloak bonus and it comes closer to balanced in it's current incarnation. The fact that one piece of equipment can be used to counter the cloak without the need for precision enhancers (which is actually what should be used on the Medium and Commandos, rather than the "add precision enhancers" argument you point out in the OP) works to counter the cloak. Should all tiers of cloak add a Complex DampenerGÇª probably not changing the bonus by tier would help. Personally I thought that they would introduce the cloak as a visual EWAR, and add an Active Dampener to counter the Active scanner, but that was a long time ago that I had that thought, when scanners were ubiquitous. I still think an Active Dampener would create a more interesting EWAR interplay, and hope that CCP separates the Cloak from the Damp bonus to create a Signal Scrambler piece of equipment. As for your first paragraph, did you see the graph I posted early after someone requested it? Here it is again. This shows that without fitting for ewar in the least, just by fitting a peice of equipment meant to visually conceal you, you also get to counter-act all but the prototype advanced active scanners. Also I am unsure of what exactly you are trying to state there in the first paragraph. The cloak is meant to conceal you visually. The active/passive scanners and dampeners are meant to conceal you electronically. I mean you could argue that the active scanner should change it's role to counter-act cloaked suits, but that would be a different thread I think. I am purely concerned with the electronic scanning/concealment interplay in this thread, and how the cloak has completely screwed it up. I saw the graph, I was the one who requested it Sorry that my first paragraph was unclear I do tend to ramble sometimes. Essentially what I am saying is that if you don't factor in the Cloak Dampeners and Precision Enhancers work fairly well (we agree on that, we both said so correct?). The area of debate is simply should Dampening trump Precision? You added the cloak to the equation and it throws out the balance heavily to the side of Dampening. What I am saying is the Active scanner is another counter to being hidden. I say that this is the choice that Medium frames and Commandos should go, as you have clearly shown that Precision Enhancers are not the solution for those frames. As the cloak is a secondary Dampening bonus, a secondary counter is needed, in this case the Active scanner would play that role. In order for the Cloak to be effective against Active Scanners it requires further resources in the form of Dampeners. The Active Scanner does not require Precision enhancers to improve it. The only improvement is through Gal Logi bonus, and perhaps something needs to be done to balance that, but that is indeed a whole other thread. According to the chart Active Scanner is effective against the majority of scouts. To counter an Active Scanner a scout suit has to devote a slot to dampening and also a cloak. In order for the scanner to be effective it does not require precision enhancers and will potentially pick up scouts who are only using the cloak. Gal Logi has a distinct advantage in scanning with little tradeoff comparative to what most scouts have to equip in order to bypass them. Now what I am saying is that you can't choose two aspects of stealth and say they cause a problem without factoring in both aspects of counter stealth. Should Active scanners be looked at to make them a fair counter to the cloak? Probably. I think you understood the second part of my post. I do think that a separate Active method for Profile Dampening to counter Scanners would be good, rather than tying it to the Cloak. Failing this development tiered profile reduction on the cloaks would be a good compromise. A reduction based on tier like this: Basic = 0.10 Advanced = 0.15 Proto = 0.25 or Basic = 0.00 Advanced = 0.10 Proto = 0.15 KRRROOOOOOM
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1988	Posted - 2014.04.13 02:39:00 - [66] - Quote Asha Starwind wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Another guy who didn't look at the charts. Cal scout's ewar is perfectly balanced against gal scout, when you take away the free non-stacking-penalty complex damping module on the cloak. Why would I look at your chart when I can see plain as day that you have an Amarr Head? PS: My CalScout super vision is shared with my squad. Does that play a part in your chart? In that aspect the CalScout is pretty worthless, for that I'd rollout Quote: Scout gk.0 2x Comp Precision Enh 1x Comp Damp 2x Comp Range whatever in 4th '-' slot(3rd Comp range or 2nd Comp damp(total invis)) whatever in L slot whatever in S slot Cloak whatever in Eq 2 slot 1 - Gal Scout will see any uncloaked non-gal scout that isn't heavily damped. For the Cal scout to avoid this dragnet it has to fit 2x comp damps and sacrifice it's range and still can't see the Gal Scout unless fitted with 3+ enhancers. The the squad with the ewar focused gal scout will always outmaneuver one with an ewar focused Cal scout it simply is no contest. Moving Range Amps would solve this and reduce the problem of the low number of High slot mods but the community probably wouldn't have it. Seeing as though EWAR isn't really in the game actively yet, your argument is pretty damn pointless. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 347	Posted - 2014.04.13 03:23:00 - [67] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: +1 Buff precision enhancers! I'm guessing you're a Cal scout?
Denn Maell PIanet Express Canis Eliminatus Operatives 272	Posted - 2014.04.13 03:24:00 - [68] - Quote Yes PE will bring your precision down by 20%% per module and PD will bring theirs down 25% per module(excluding stacking penalties). With 2 Range amps a Cal Scout can see pretty much anything within a 76m radius, and so can his squad mates (Squad sharing passive scans works). I'm not saying your wrong about the imbalance (your not, spot on). But the alternative (in the current system) would entail taking away the (temporary)PD Buff or buffing Precision Enhancers would simply mean that we would have a situation where we see even more CalScouts than we do today and Profile Dampening would be useless to consider. Without the current imbalance you have pointed out, the CalScout would be over powered and have the ability to negate what little Ewar exists in the game as of now. The most OP weapon on the Dust Battle Field: One good logi, one rep tool, and a heavy.
Toby Flenderson research lab 471	Posted - 2014.04.13 05:46:00 - [69] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: What is on display, and what I take issue with, is that by fitting one module in addition to the cloak, a scout becomes unscannable to all but one suit. That is not tactical, there is no interplay between precision enhancement and dampening. It becomes an analog function, either you are sometimes seen or never seen, that is it. This is not balance. no you are making a false statement. I am not arguing that other suits should have an easy time seeing scouts, I am arguing that ewar as it is is completely messed up thanks to the non-stacking-penalized complex dampener that comes for free with an already powerful module. CCP obviously chose the precision and profile levels of each suit in order to establish a type of interplay between the suits when it comes to ewar. If you do not get that free complex damp, the interplay appears well thought out and balanced. With the free complex dampener from the cloak, there is no longer any type of interplay, damp + cloak >>>>> anything (ewar wise). It's always been that way, you either are able to scan someone or you can't. Just how useless do you want cloaks to be? Let's say you require a second dampener so that only a scout with two complex dampeners and a cloak can be ALMOST completely invisible (scanning wise) to everything but the caldari scout (and gal logi maybe?). This would be ridiculous to require someone to invest into the scout suit, cloak, proto dampening, and sacrifice two modules for dampening just so that their entire fitting/tactic is not nullified by passive scans. On top of all of this, the cloak is not permanent. Using range amplifiers make it easier to spot scouts who need to pause for a second to recharge their cloak before going in the for attack. I don't see how I'm making a false statement but whatever. Everyone had the opportunity to re-evaluate their decisions and choose a suit knowing what was coming in 1.8. If you want to see scouts, get a scout suit or prepare to have to sacrifice your fitting to try. That's what everyone had to decide when they chose their new suits. Among my choices was the caldari scout. Easy choice. Ewar is fine among scouts. If you want to participate in ewar then don't pick assault suits. Get a gallente logi. The scout suits are top tier for this role and mediums are the poor man's scout suit when it comes to ewar. It shouldn't be balanced between scouts and medium suits, that's what scouts are made for. This is why I referenced the heavy comparison. Certain suit types are just made for certain things. Ewar is scout territory just like support is logi territory and slaying/defense is assault/heavy territory. Competition between the suit types in categories like this shouldn't be balanced, there only needs to be balance within the each suit type. In the case of the scouts, it's fine.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 784	Posted - 2014.04.13 06:44:00 - [70] - Quote Denn Maell wrote: Yes PE will bring your precision down by 20%% per module and PD will bring theirs down 25% per module(excluding stacking penalties). With 2 Range amps a Cal Scout can see pretty much anything within a 76m radius, and so can his squad mates (Squad sharing passive scans works). I'm not saying your wrong about the imbalance (your not, spot on). But the alternative (in the current system) would entail taking away the (temporary)PD Buff or buffing Precision Enhancers would simply mean that we would have a situation where we see even more CalScouts than we do today and Profile Dampening would be useless to consider. Without the current imbalance you have pointed out, the CalScout would be over powered and have the ability to negate what little Ewar exists in the game as of now. Hey I have an idea, maybe we should stop repeating a lie? Lke the one underlined in your statement. I have been in many many squads, I never get to see all of the reds that they see without a scanner, FULL STOP. Toby Flenderson wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: What is on display, and what I take issue with, is that by fitting one module in addition to the cloak, a scout becomes unscannable to all but one suit. That is not tactical, there is no interplay between precision enhancement and dampening. It becomes an analog function, either you are sometimes seen or never seen, that is it. This is not balance. no you are making a false statement. I am not arguing that other suits should have an easy time seeing scouts, I am arguing that ewar as it is is completely messed up thanks to the non-stacking-penalized complex dampener that comes for free with an already powerful module. CCP obviously chose the precision and profile levels of each suit in order to establish a type of interplay between the suits when it comes to ewar. If you do not get that free complex damp, the interplay appears well thought out and balanced. With the free complex dampener from the cloak, there is no longer any type of interplay, damp + cloak >>>>> anything (ewar wise). It's always been that way, you either are able to scan someone or you can't. Just how useless do you want cloaks to be? Let's say you require a second dampener so that only a scout with two complex dampeners and a cloak can be ALMOST completely invisible (scanning wise) to everything but the caldari scout (and gal logi maybe?). This would be ridiculous to require someone to invest into the scout suit, cloak, proto dampening, and sacrifice two modules for dampening just so that their entire fitting/tactic is not nullified by passive scans. On top of all of this, the cloak is not permanent. Using range amplifiers make it easier to spot scouts who need to pause for a second to recharge their cloak before going in the for attack. I don't see how I'm making a false statement but whatever. Everyone had the opportunity to re-evaluate their decisions and choose a suit knowing what was coming in 1.8. If you want to see scouts, get a scout suit or prepare to have to sacrifice your fitting to try. That's what everyone had to decide when they chose their new suits. Among my choices was the caldari scout. Easy choice. Ewar is fine among scouts. If you want to participate in ewar then don't pick assault suits. Get a gallente logi. The scout suits are top tier for this role and mediums are the poor man's scout suit when it comes to ewar. It shouldn't be balanced between scouts and medium suits, that's what scouts are made for. This is why I referenced the heavy comparison. Certain suit types are just made for certain things. Ewar is scout territory just like support is logi territory and slaying/defense is assault/heavy territory. Competition between the suit types in categories like this shouldn't be balanced, there only needs to be balance within the each suit type. In the case of the scouts, it's fine. 1) so cloaks are useless without having a free non-stacking penalized complex module on them? Sure buddy. 2) No, there was never, fit two mods and never worry about a type of gameplay ever again. Nope. 3) You can either be invisible to scans and sacrifice, or you can be your mini assault, not both. Or at least that is what balance dictates. LEt me rephrase your ****** moment there that is underlined: This would be ridiculous to require someone to invest into the scout suit, precision, and sacrifice four modules for enhancement just so that their entire fitting/tactic is not nullified by two... maybe three modules. Look, there is no balance allowing cloaks to be 2 different forms of ewar. You obviously didn't decide to spend the time looking at any of the graphs in this thread. If you had, you would see that a scanner is pretty much pointless. With one damp and one cloak, the gallente scout is unscannable. With one cloak and two dampeners, all other scouts are unscannable. This isn't balance. Look, go read the graphs, come up with one thing that hasn't been said and disproven 400 times already in this thread, and then come back. It is consensus, the free non-stacking-penalized complex dampener that cloaks have is not needed, and it actively harms a delicate balance that has existed for a year in the ewar department. Fixing swarms

Denesian Morenti The Neutral Zone 18	Posted - 2014.04.13 06:48:00 - [71] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: This is a ridiculous statement made by some people. Let me show you why: Hover zoom or clicky The above bar graph shows how precision enhancers are mostly underpowered because of the added dampening of the cloak. Oh and for all of you guys saying fit precision enhancers on medium/heavy suits(logi for the graph): Hover zoom or clicky Stop saying that, it is not a good idea. TLDR: First link shows how scouts precision lines up with dampening. Cloaks make dampening to strong Second link shows why precision enhancers on mediums or above is stupid. That's the point, a damped scout should be un scannable. agreed, but it should not have 700ehp.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 493	Posted - 2014.04.13 08:43:00 - [72] - Quote OP, In your opinion, if cloaks, damps, and enhancers were balanced, how much should three complex precision enhancers pay off for a logi with level 5 precision skills like me? Clearly, I give up a lot of shielding for this setup but a significant portion of the scout community currently evades my radar. Where would you like to see someone like me fall on the spectrum?
Asha Starwind 798	Posted - 2014.04.13 09:23:00 - [73] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: OP, In your opinion, if cloaks, damps, and enhancers were balanced, how much should three complex precision enhancers pay off for a logi with level 5 precision skills like me? Clearly, I give up a lot of shielding for this setup but a significant portion of the scout community currently evades my radar. Where would you like to see someone like me fall on the spectrum? Your Logi is a med suit so it should be concerned about scanning other meds not scouts. Mad Bomber - 50% less profile Return dumbfire to Swarms
Jastad D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 700	Posted - 2014.04.13 09:24:00 - [74] - Quote @Magnus I agree with all you say, but you're wrong about passive. Passive scan is always shared. Your scout mate need to have range skill and at least a module with a range AMP. Not so common with all the FOTM LETSSTACKASMANYHPASPOSSIBLE chasers. Cal.Heavy-Min.Heavy-Amarr.Heavy Believe in the FORGE, young padawans SoloDoloreSuCharlie
Toby Flenderson research lab 471	Posted - 2014.04.13 14:31:00 - [75] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: 1) so cloaks are useless without having a free non-stacking penalized complex module on them? Sure buddy. 2) No, there was never, fit two mods and never worry about a type of gameplay ever again. Nope. 3) You can either be invisible to scans and sacrifice, or you can be your mini assault, not both. Or at least that is what balance dictates. LEt me rephrase your ****** moment there that is underlined: This would be ridiculous to require someone to invest into the scout suit, precision, and sacrifice four modules for enhancement just so that their entire fitting/tactic is not nullified by two... maybe three modules. Look, there is no balance allowing cloaks to be 2 different forms of ewar. You obviously didn't decide to spend the time looking at any of the graphs in this thread. If you had, you would see that a scanner is pretty much pointless. With one damp and one cloak, the gallente scout is unscannable. With one cloak and two dampeners, all other scouts are unscannable. This isn't balance. Look, go read the graphs, come up with one thing that hasn't been said and disproven 400 times already in this thread, and then come back. It is consensus, the free non-stacking-penalized complex dampener that cloaks have is not needed, and it actively harms a delicate balance that has existed for a year in the ewar department. Haha this is funny. 1. I never said that. I asked how useless you want them to be, calling for a nerf. As it is, the cloak helps not being seen visually and "electronically". Take away the dampening and you're requiring two complex dampeners on top of the cloak to actually be invisible. Now if you can be passively scanned while cloaked, the cloak is useless. So I'm asking you: How worthless do you want it to be? Do you want to require the scout to run 1,2,3, or 4 complex dampeners before the cloak is not useless? 2. I'll just say it again, it's always been this way: You either can be seen or you can't. Haha that's what I said. Am I wrong? Is there some apparition mode where you can be "half seen"? Must've been in closed beta then because I've never seen it. 3. My suits all have about 300 ehp. I only used advanced suits (minus my proto minmatar super-hack suit) and on each one I run 2 precision enhancers and 2 dampeners/range amplifiers/codebreakers depending on the suit. The extra module is hp whether it be a shield extender or an armor plate. I'm not advocating for assault suits. People that stack armor are gimping themselves enough with scan range/dampening because you can't be cloaked all of the time so it doesn't make it god mode to other scouts. All it takes is them to be within about 50 meters of me and uncloaked for a few seconds and I can see them coming. All in all I think that dampening should beat out precision because you can't share dampening but passively scanning a scout will share it with your squad. To be the invisible scout you need to separate from the rest of the team who aren't also being completely invisible like you. If a blueberry runs next to you then you're as good as scanned. If it were completely balanced between the modules then it would take a couple caldari scouts to find everyone in the map and the wear battle will be won.
Mike Ox Bigger Skill Shots 256	Posted - 2014.04.13 14:49:00 - [76] - Quote The reason gal scouts are OP at the moment is there is no counter to them. A gal scout with 2 complex dampeners is not detectable to a cal scout with 4 complex precision enhancers. That tells me there's obviously something wrong here. Removing the cloak bonus of 25% is needed and raising precision enhancers to be equal to dampeners is needed. A medium frame with two complex precision enhancers should be able to pick up a cloaked scout wearing no dampeners. Making that a possibility will help improve balance.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 784	Posted - 2014.04.13 18:39:00 - [77] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: 1) so cloaks are useless without having a free non-stacking penalized complex module on them? Sure buddy. 2) No, there was never, fit two mods and never worry about a type of gameplay ever again. Nope. 3) You can either be invisible to scans and sacrifice, or you can be your mini assault, not both. Or at least that is what balance dictates. LEt me rephrase your ****** moment there that is underlined: This would be ridiculous to require someone to invest into the scout suit, precision, and sacrifice four modules for enhancement just so that their entire fitting/tactic is not nullified by two... maybe three modules. Look, there is no balance allowing cloaks to be 2 different forms of ewar. You obviously didn't decide to spend the time looking at any of the graphs in this thread. If you had, you would see that a scanner is pretty much pointless. With one damp and one cloak, the gallente scout is unscannable. With one cloak and two dampeners, all other scouts are unscannable. This isn't balance. Look, go read the graphs, come up with one thing that hasn't been said and disproven 400 times already in this thread, and then come back. It is consensus, the free non-stacking-penalized complex dampener that cloaks have is not needed, and it actively harms a delicate balance that has existed for a year in the ewar department. Haha this is funny. 1. I never said that. I asked how useless you want them to be, calling for a nerf. As it is, the cloak helps not being seen visually and "electronically". Take away the dampening and you're requiring two complex dampeners on top of the cloak to actually be invisible. Now if you can be passively scanned while cloaked, the cloak is useless. So I'm asking you: How worthless do you want it to be? Do you want to require the scout to run 1,2,3, or 4 complex dampeners before the cloak is not useless? 2. I'll just say it again, it's always been this way: You either can be seen or you can't. Haha that's what I said. Am I wrong? Is there some apparition mode where you can be "half seen"? Must've been in closed beta then because I've never seen it. 3. My suits all have about 300 ehp. I only used advanced suits (minus my proto minmatar super-hack suit) and on each one I run 2 precision enhancers and 2 dampeners/range amplifiers/codebreakers depending on the suit. The extra module is hp whether it be a shield extender or an armor plate. I'm not advocating for assault suits. People that stack armor are gimping themselves enough with scan range/dampening because you can't be cloaked all of the time so it doesn't make it god mode to other scouts. All it takes is them to be within about 50 meters of me and uncloaked for a few seconds and I can see them coming. All in all I think that dampening should beat out precision because you can't share dampening but passively scanning a scout will share it with your squad. To be the invisible scout you need to separate from the rest of the team who aren't also being completely invisible like you. If a blueberry runs next to you then you're as good as scanned. If it were completely balanced between the modules then it would take a couple caldari scouts to find everyone in the map and the wear battle will be won. Wow so much wrong with what you wrote. 1) your contention is that a cloak would be useless unless it is also a free non-stackng-penalized complex dampener. You have repeated it twice now. 2) No, it hasn't always been fit 2 mods and beat 4, it has never been that way 3)Dampnening is by default stronger than Scanning. IF you had bothered to read the thread, you would have seen that there is an interplay between scanning and dampening. Given equal modules (and thus sacrifice) dampening always wins, but the idea is that you should have to sacrifice. If another suit has sacrificed to increase it's scanning ability, then you should have to sacrifice in order to beat it. If they sacrifice 4 slots and the ability of the suit to do pretty much anything else to scan you, you should have to do the same. If you had looked at the charts, you would see that dampening makes it so that you do not have to make this sacrifice when trying to hide, and that is because the cloak gives you a free non-stacking-penalized complex dampening module. Everything you have wrote so far has been covered, explain, disproven and laughed out of discussion. Just because you rephrease the statement "but I should be able to do more than just try to be invisible" doesn't make it any more true. TLDR: IF another scout suit sacrifices 4 module slots to see you, you should have to sacrifice 4 module slots to stay hidden. The cloak completely messes this up. Fixing swarms
Virtual Riot Rebels New Republic INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 333	Posted - 2014.04.13 19:35:00 - [78] - Quote I proposed removing the dampining bonus from cloaks awhile ago it doesen't make sense, nor is it necessary
Toby Flenderson research lab 471	Posted - 2014.04.13 22:01:00 - [79] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: 1) so cloaks are useless without having a free non-stacking penalized complex module on them? Sure buddy. 2) No, there was never, fit two mods and never worry about a type of gameplay ever again. Nope. 3) You can either be invisible to scans and sacrifice, or you can be your mini assault, not both. Or at least that is what balance dictates. LEt me rephrase your ****** moment there that is underlined: This would be ridiculous to require someone to invest into the scout suit, precision, and sacrifice four modules for enhancement just so that their entire fitting/tactic is not nullified by two... maybe three modules. Look, there is no balance allowing cloaks to be 2 different forms of ewar. You obviously didn't decide to spend the time looking at any of the graphs in this thread. If you had, you would see that a scanner is pretty much pointless. With one damp and one cloak, the gallente scout is unscannable. With one cloak and two dampeners, all other scouts are unscannable. This isn't balance. Look, go read the graphs, come up with one thing that hasn't been said and disproven 400 times already in this thread, and then come back. It is consensus, the free non-stacking-penalized complex dampener that cloaks have is not needed, and it actively harms a delicate balance that has existed for a year in the ewar department. Haha this is funny. 1. I never said that. I asked how useless you want them to be, calling for a nerf. As it is, the cloak helps not being seen visually and "electronically". Take away the dampening and you're requiring two complex dampeners on top of the cloak to actually be invisible. Now if you can be passively scanned while cloaked, the cloak is useless. So I'm asking you: How worthless do you want it to be? Do you want to require the scout to run 1,2,3, or 4 complex dampeners before the cloak is not useless? 2. I'll just say it again, it's always been this way: You either can be seen or you can't. Haha that's what I said. Am I wrong? Is there some apparition mode where you can be "half seen"? Must've been in closed beta then because I've never seen it. 3. My suits all have about 300 ehp. I only used advanced suits (minus my proto minmatar super-hack suit) and on each one I run 2 precision enhancers and 2 dampeners/range amplifiers/codebreakers depending on the suit. The extra module is hp whether it be a shield extender or an armor plate. I'm not advocating for assault suits. People that stack armor are gimping themselves enough with scan range/dampening because you can't be cloaked all of the time so it doesn't make it god mode to other scouts. All it takes is them to be within about 50 meters of me and uncloaked for a few seconds and I can see them coming. All in all I think that dampening should beat out precision because you can't share dampening but passively scanning a scout will share it with your squad. To be the invisible scout you need to separate from the rest of the team who aren't also being completely invisible like you. If a blueberry runs next to you then you're as good as scanned. If it were completely balanced between the modules then it would take a couple caldari scouts to find everyone in the map and the wear battle will be won. Wow so much wrong with what you wrote. 1) your contention is that a cloak would be useless unless it is also a free non-stackng-penalized complex dampener. You have repeated it twice now. 2) No, it hasn't always been fit 2 mods and beat 4, it has never been that way 3)Dampnening is by default stronger than Scanning. IF you had bothered to read the thread, you would have seen that there is an interplay between scanning and dampening. Given equal modules (and thus sacrifice) dampening always wins, but the idea is that you should have to sacrifice. If another suit has sacrificed to increase it's scanning ability, then you should have to sacrifice in order to beat it. If they sacrifice 4 slots and the ability of the suit to do pretty much anything else to scan you, you should have to do the same. If you had looked at the charts, you would see that dampening makes it so that you do not have to make this sacrifice when trying to hide, and that is because the cloak gives you a free non-stacking-penalized complex dampening module. Everything you have wrote so far has been covered, explain, disproven and laughed out of discussion. Just because you rephrease the statement "but I should be able to do more than just try to be invisible" doesn't make it any more true. TLDR: IF another scout suit sacrifices 4 module slots to see you, you should have to sacrifice 4 module slots to stay hidden. The cloak completely messes this up. Just a bunch of no. Not going to bother responding to your posts if you don't understand what I'm saying. The last word I'll have in this thread will be in the form of a suggestion: try not to think of cloaks as an extension of passive dropsuit skills because it's not, it's an active piece of equipment. Good day
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 493	Posted - 2014.04.14 01:43:00 - [80] - Quote Asha Starwind wrote: SirManBoy wrote: OP, In your opinion, if cloaks, damps, and enhancers were balanced, how much should three complex precision enhancers pay off for a logi with level 5 precision skills like me? Clearly, I give up a lot of shielding for this setup but a significant portion of the scout community currently evades my radar. Where would you like to see someone like me fall on the spectrum? Your Logi is a med suit so it should be concerned about scanning other meds not scouts. I used to be concerned with such things, but then scouts started constantly uncloaking from behind me and destroying my 200K+ ISK support suits almost instantly with two quick shotgun blasts. So yeah, I'm concerned about scouts. It seems to me that a fair system would be one where a medium suit with three complex precision enhancers should at least be able to pick up scouts with one complex dampener. If scouts should be able to out EWAR other scouts with a 1 module advantage, then mediums should be able to out EWAR scouts whenever they have a two module advantage.

Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 790	Posted - 2014.04.14 05:53:00 - [81] - Quote bump. Truth kinda speaks for itself, cloaks completely mess up any type of balance for ewar. Fixing swarms
G Torq ALTA B2O 663	Posted - 2014.04.14 07:17:00 - [82] - Quote This might be of general interest: Scanning equipment and suits (incl cloaks) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11ouz89DQ0j4dK8K0yUVEDSAysZvELwS9YNN-wBUUO-U/edit?usp=sharing Team Fairy DUST HTTP://Dust.Thang.DK/ - DUST514 Fitting Tool based on DUST SDE
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 790	Posted - 2014.04.14 07:25:00 - [83] - Quote G Torq wrote: This might be of general interest: Scanning equipment and suits (incl cloaks) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11ouz89DQ0j4dK8K0yUVEDSAysZvELwS9YNN-wBUUO-U/edit?usp=sharing That is a nice spreadsheet. If I could make one suggestion (and it is just a suggestin) I would change the colors scheme slightly. Right now it is initially confusing as to what the colors indicate (as in, the color indicates that it beats that type of scanner. Rather I would think the color should indicate what level of scanner you require to pick up that suit, and then put a new color in for no scanner and maybe proto focused. Like here there is a simple line above which the scanner works. Other than that small gripe, awesome spreadsheet and a +1 to you sir. I find it hilarious how commando suits could theoretically beat Prototype scanners because of the cloak. Fixing swarms
Exodeon Salviej The Phoenix Federation 80	Posted - 2014.04.14 07:48:00 - [84] - Quote I can't say "yes" to this, but I can't say "No" either. -Crosses my arms.- My question is, why the hell didn't they use a random number generator for this precision enhancing stuff? Like say, for example; This person has this much precision, and that person has that much dampening. No matter the scale, there would ALWAYS be a small chance to pick that person up on the radar. I just find it a helluva lot easier than using any set factor, because it's precision, and dampening. The Scanner notifies you of an error, and if your precision isn't high enough, then it doesn't even warn you of that error, because it thinks there isn't one. Also, if they use a random number generator, then majority of the issues with cloak dampening would be solved, as no one would complain, rather...they'd pat themselves on the back for having the surprisingly good luck to pick one up and thwart that scouts hunting indefinitely if he attempts during that time. I just think a lot more people would be satisfied with this issue if they had a CHANCE, no matter how small it is, instead of a fixed number. And no, it's not COMPLETELY random, out of a hundred, the generator takes the factors, makes a percentage for a "yes" and "no" sides. Then it rolls a number by random, and depending on where the number lands, it determines that "yes," or "no," result. For example: The "Yes" is 50%, and the "No" is 50%. The generator has a set limit of 100, if the number lands below 50, then the attempt is a success. If the number lands above 50, then the attempt is a failure. Your face is something to shoot, so I will shoot. Don't be offended, I do it to everyone. Commandoooo punch! >:D
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 494	Posted - 2014.04.14 09:58:00 - [85] - Quote Exodeon Salviej wrote: I can't say "yes" to this, but I can't say "No" either. -Crosses my arms.- My question is, why the hell didn't they use a random number generator for this precision enhancing stuff? Like say, for example; This person has this much precision, and that person has that much dampening. No matter the scale, there would ALWAYS be a small chance to pick that person up on the radar. I just find it a helluva lot easier than using any set factor, because it's precision, and dampening. The Scanner notifies you of an error, and if your precision isn't high enough, then it doesn't even warn you of that error, because it thinks there isn't one. Also, if they use a random number generator, then majority of the issues with cloak dampening would be solved, as no one would complain, rather...they'd pat themselves on the back for having the surprisingly good luck to pick one up and thwart that scouts hunting indefinitely if he attempts during that time. I just think a lot more people would be satisfied with this issue if they had a CHANCE, no matter how small it is, instead of a fixed number. And no, it's not COMPLETELY random, out of a hundred, the generator takes the factors, makes a percentage for a "yes" and "no" sides. Then it rolls a number by random, and depending on where the number lands, it determines that "yes," or "no," result. For example: The "Yes" is 50%, and the "No" is 50%. The generator has a set limit of 100, if the number lands below 50, then the attempt is a success. If the number lands above 50, then the attempt is a failure. The fixed nature of it allows you to prepare your modules accordingly. However, the problem lies in the fact that scouts are too OP in terms of scan profile, which makes them almost impossible to combat with even three complex precision enhancers. This is a rough idea of what I'd like to see in EWAR: Scout vs. Scout In terms of enhancers and dampeners, a one module advantage (ex. 2 complex enhancers vs. 1 complex dampener) should always result in radar supremacy. No exceptions. When the number of modules is even (ex. 1 complex enhancer vs. 1 complex dampener) the following rules should apply: Gal scout damp > Cal scout pre.en. Cal scout pre.en. > Min and Amarr scout damp Scout vs. Medium In terms of enhancers and dampeners, a medium frame with a two module advantage over a scout (ex. 3 complex enhancers vs. 1 complex dampener) should always obtain radar supremacy. No exceptions.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 494	Posted - 2014.04.14 10:11:00 - [86] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Exodeon Salviej wrote: I can't say "yes" to this, but I can't say "No" either. -Crosses my arms.- My question is, why the hell didn't they use a random number generator for this precision enhancing stuff? Like say, for example; This person has this much precision, and that person has that much dampening. No matter the scale, there would ALWAYS be a small chance to pick that person up on the radar. I just find it a helluva lot easier than using any set factor, because it's precision, and dampening. The Scanner notifies you of an error, and if your precision isn't high enough, then it doesn't even warn you of that error, because it thinks there isn't one. Also, if they use a random number generator, then majority of the issues with cloak dampening would be solved, as no one would complain, rather...they'd pat themselves on the back for having the surprisingly good luck to pick one up and thwart that scouts hunting indefinitely if he attempts during that time. I just think a lot more people would be satisfied with this issue if they had a CHANCE, no matter how small it is, instead of a fixed number. And no, it's not COMPLETELY random, out of a hundred, the generator takes the factors, makes a percentage for a "yes" and "no" sides. Then it rolls a number by random, and depending on where the number lands, it determines that "yes," or "no," result. For example: The "Yes" is 50%, and the "No" is 50%. The generator has a set limit of 100, if the number lands below 50, then the attempt is a success. If the number lands above 50, then the attempt is a failure. The fixed nature of it allows you to prepare your modules accordingly. However, the problem lies in the fact that scouts are too OP in terms of scan profile, which makes them almost impossible to combat with even three complex precision enhancers. This is a rough idea of what I'd like to see in EWAR: Scout vs. Scout In terms of enhancers and dampeners, a one module advantage (ex. 2 complex enhancers vs. 1 complex dampener) should always result in radar supremacy. No exceptions. When the number of modules is even (ex. 1 complex enhancer vs. 1 complex dampener) the following rules should apply: Gal scout damp > Cal scout pre.en. Cal scout pre.en. > Min and Amarr scout damp Scout vs. Medium In terms of enhancers and dampeners, a medium frame with a two module advantage over a scout (ex. 3 complex enhancers vs. 1 complex dampener) should always obtain radar supremacy. No exceptions. Well, maybe I shouldn't say no exceptions. Clearly, skill tree differences should matter. For example, all mods in equal proportion, a Cal logi should absolutely see a Gal logi if the Cal logi's enhancer skills are higher than the Gal logi's dampening skills.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5103	Posted - 2014.04.14 10:37:00 - [87] - Quote Fact: Cloaks make dampening too powerful in the EWAR equation. Fact: Dampening SHOULD be capable of exceeding scanning to be effective. BOTH of these things are facts. BOTH are true and correct. Solution: Reduce profile dampening effect of cloak from 25% to 10 or 15% There SHOULD be a valid EWAR benefit to cloak use, but it's currently too large a benefit.
G Torq ALTA B2O 675	Posted - 2014.04.14 11:07:00 - [88] - Quote Matticus Monk wrote: You are right, my apprehension is completely based on the assumption that passive squad vision was shared, which I thought it was ( I thought we had confirmed this, but I could be wrong.) Come play with me - I promise you'll see my passive scans (confirmed repeatedly by lots of people) Team Fairy DUST HTTP://Dust.Thang.DK/ - DUST514 Fitting Tool based on DUST SDE
Galvan Nized Deep Space Republic 874	Posted - 2014.04.14 11:50:00 - [89] - Quote I think you could get away with getting rid of the dampening bonus from cloaks. Or you could fix cloaks where you cannot fire until fully uncloaked (either a delay or instant), that way you appear on the radar a split second before you fire. I always expected it to work more like the latter. But there will always be a disparity between precision mods and dampening mods because scanning wins in a tie. With profile and precision rounding to the nearest whole number the disparity has to be significant or precision enhancers would always trump dampeners.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2527	Posted - 2014.04.14 12:35:00 - [90] - Quote It does show a compeling argument as to why the dampening bonus should prehaps be rethought. However the problem with Scouts and Cloaks doesn't just lie with the fact no oe uses non EHP modules. 1) Cloaked Scouts currently have no hard couner that isn't a prescion stacked caldari scouts. 2) Scouts are designed to beat Scanners therefore, fixing Scanners will only stop those who brick tank and will not give a hard counter to the actual scout. Now there are plenty of ways we can give Scout suits a hard counte, ranging from -Deployable Sensor Arrays -Accoustic Locators (as suggested by King Checkmate) -Making a larger selection of ACTIVE scanners harder to dodge (achieved with gallante bonus, needs to be given to all logi units) -EMP/Static Grenades that increase shimmer on cloaked units. -Taggable Tracking devices There are plenty of options we just have to make sure we don't make them too easily accessible, less we marganalise scouts again. Personally I am in favour of STATIC grenades. Which creates an area of 'chaff' tiny relective particles of metal that scrambler electronic sensor equipment. Cloaked units inside the 'chaff' will be easier to spot as they will NOT cloak to the chaff around them. You will see the silhouette of the unit effectively cut out off the chaff. Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 201	Posted - 2014.04.14 15:04:00 - [91] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: There are plenty of options we just have to make sure we don't make them too easily accessible, less we marganalise scouts again. Personally I am in favour of STATIC grenades. Which creates an area of 'chaff' tiny relective particles of metal that scrambler electronic sensor equipment. Cloaked units inside the 'chaff' will be easier to spot as they will NOT cloak to the chaff around them. You will see the silhouette of the unit effectively cut out off the chaff. What effect would STATIC grenades have on units without cloak? Bang?
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 791	Posted - 2014.04.14 15:08:00 - [92] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Fact: Cloaks make dampening too powerful in the EWAR equation. Fact: Dampening SHOULD be capable of exceeding scanning to be effective. BOTH of these things are facts. BOTH are true and correct. Solution: Reduce profile dampening effect of cloak from 25% to 10 or 15% There SHOULD be a valid EWAR benefit to cloak use, but it's currently too large a benefit. With 0 % dampening bonus to cloaks, dampening by default always wins. This is because suit precision is always less than suit profile, and precision mods are 20% bonus rather than the 25% bonus for dampeners. With no bonus to cloaks, the status quo you want is already in place. Galvan Nized wrote: I think you could get away with getting rid of the dampening bonus from cloaks. Or you could fix cloaks where you cannot fire until fully uncloaked (either a delay or instant), that way you appear on the radar a split second before you fire. I always expected it to work more like the latter. But there will always be a disparity between precision mods and dampening mods because scanning wins in a tie. With profile and precision rounding to the nearest whole number the disparity has to be significant or precision enhancers would always trump dampeners. See above. All other things being equal, dampening always wins. Sure with the same values scannign wins, but to get the same values requires much more from precision than from dampening. I.E. one of each module and you will always have a lower (by >1 ) profile than precision. Damps make it so that precision has no chance at all in this delicate ewar balance. Fixing swarms
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 792	Posted - 2014.04.14 15:37:00 - [93] - Quote G Torq wrote: Matticus Monk wrote: You are right, my apprehension is completely based on the assumption that passive squad vision was shared, which I thought it was ( I thought we had confirmed this, but I could be wrong.) Come play with me - I promise you'll see my passive scans (confirmed repeatedly by lots of people) IF you look here you will find the patchnotes from uprising 1.4, in it you will find this statement CCP wrote: * Shared passive scanner vision for squads disabled (results of active scanners are still shared with squads) No, you do not share passive scans Fixing swarms
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2531	Posted - 2014.04.14 16:52:00 - [94] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: There are plenty of options we just have to make sure we don't make them too easily accessible, less we marganalise scouts again. Personally I am in favour of STATIC grenades. Which creates an area of 'chaff' tiny relective particles of metal that scrambler electronic sensor equipment. Cloaked units inside the 'chaff' will be easier to spot as they will NOT cloak to the chaff around them. You will see the silhouette of the unit effectively cut out off the chaff. What effect would STATIC grenades have on units without cloak? They can't see ****, sorted. Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
CRNWLLC Screwy Rabbit ULC 190	Posted - 2014.04.14 17:55:00 - [95] - Quote Problem: Precision enhancers are UP. Reasons: Cloaks grant additional dampening bonus; the double whammy of complex precision enhancers granting only a 20% bonus to complex dampener's 25%, which further exacerbates the problem since a scout's base profile is 35db while its precision is 40db. (Seriously, this makes no fecking sense whatsoever.) Ie, Precision = larger default value with weaker modules; dampening = smaller default value with stronger modules; dampening > precision, ATM. Solution: Remove the profile dampening bonus from cloaks (makes no sense anyway, see below) and match p.enhancer/dampener bonuses. CRNWLLC wrote: ...remove the profile dampening effect of activated cloaks. As I explain more here, granting a bonus to profile dampening not only unnecessarily conflates two stealth tactics (visual + radar), it doesn't make sense that an activated, running piece of electronic equipment (ie, the cloak) decreases noise or EM radiation. The additional bonus to profile makes even less sense when considering scout suits also received more slots, enabling them to more easily fit an extra profile dampener. My other dropsuit is a Python.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5103	Posted - 2014.04.14 20:19:00 - [96] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: There is a valid ewar benefit to cloaks. Yep, that is what you look like when cloaked, and that is incredibly powerful. Uhhh... nope. That's from well before 1.8 was released, while CCP were still working on the cloak mechanics. Here's what we actually ended up with. Or if you want to see what you look like to the other team, it's more like this. Unless you have your TV settings wrong, cloaked players are primarily getting a dampening benefit from the cloak, and NOT any plausible form of invisibility. The balance of dampening vs. precision - AND the value of scanners - needs tweaking. Maybe it would be a better idea to make scanners provide a fixed-range and fixed-arc scanning effect, but the precision is a bonus onto your suit's passive scan precision instead of a fixed value? Or maybe Scanners should be made more viable in some other way - NERF their base precision, but allow precision mods to apply to them, so an Active Scanner and mods will be an effective counter to a cloaked Scout if they don't dampen themselves as well? The dampening bonus for the cloak IS a good idea, imo, but it does - with the current mechanics - make dampening far more powerful than it should be in comparison with precision.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5103	Posted - 2014.04.14 20:27:00 - [97] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: G Torq wrote: Matticus Monk wrote: You are right, my apprehension is completely based on the assumption that passive squad vision was shared, which I thought it was ( I thought we had confirmed this, but I could be wrong.) Come play with me - I promise you'll see my passive scans (confirmed repeatedly by lots of people) IF you look here you will find the patchnotes from uprising 1.4, in it you will find this statement CCP wrote: * Shared passive scanner vision for squads disabled (results of active scanners are still shared with squads) No, you do not share passive scans I have seen evidence of SCOUTS (only Scouts) sharing passive scans in 1.8 - not in previous builds afrer 1.4, but in 1.8 I've seen it. I don't know if it's a glitch, or if it's a deliberate but undocumented change. I only know that AT TIMES (I haven't confirmed if it always happens), targets I've lit up on my Scouts passive sensors have been visible to squadmates (but not non-squad teammates) who wouldn't normally pick up those enemies. I can also confirm that Assault and Scout suits DON'T light up targets for team- or squadmates by lining up on a target they can't light up with their passives. The target appears on the HUD at long range when you center them in your crosshairs, but no matter what, it doesn't share with other players. A heavily-dampened target doesn't light up for your teammates even if they're in scan range and in your crosshairs if they're under your precision rating. Then again, back when CCP confirmed pre-Uprising that firing a weapon didn't increase your profile, I was regularly seeing Snipers and Shotgunners light up with each shot they fired, then fade from my HUD without the target moving. So I'm pretty sure that nobody at CCP has been entirely clear on how their EWAR mechanics have been working in DUST for quite some time.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 496	Posted - 2014.04.14 22:48:00 - [98] - Quote EWAR Proposal (link to graphic)
Foxbat 071 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 149	Posted - 2014.04.14 23:02:00 - [99] - Quote My double complex dampened Cal scout wouldn't mind a buff to precision enhancers *BLAP* ( X ) Call For Help ( O ) Respawn
PAXTON HAILFIRE CORPORACION CRISTIAN MURATI 84 46	Posted - 2014.04.14 23:41:00 - [100] - Quote I run 2 pro precision and 1 pro dampner. I like to RE people so I want to see them coming. Can't say anything has snuck up on me. I'm on my phone so reading the chart is like reading through a straw. So, you're saying the 2nd precision in pointless? Or both? How is precision for a cal scout when they are also cloaked? Isnt scanning related to dampening? I just started messing with scouts so I just threw on what fit my adv suit. Oh, and I have Lvl 5 damp and precision (kind of obvious since Im running complex mods).

SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 500	Posted - 2014.04.15 00:32:00 - [101] - Quote PAXTON HAILFIRE wrote: I run 2 pro precision and 1 pro dampner. I like to RE people so I want to see them coming. Can't say anything has snuck up on me. I'm on my phone so reading the chart is like reading through a straw. So, you're saying the 2nd precision in pointless? Or both? How is precision for a cal scout when they are also cloaked? Isnt scanning related to dampening? I just started messing with scouts so I just threw on what fit my adv suit. Oh, and I have Lvl 5 damp and precision (kind of obvious since Im running complex mods). The chart simply displays a proposed order for radar supremacy given the number of dampeners and/or precision enhancers a merc has on their suit.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 803	Posted - 2014.04.15 01:05:00 - [102] - Quote PAXTON HAILFIRE wrote: I run 2 pro precision and 1 pro dampner. I like to RE people so I want to see them coming. Can't say anything has snuck up on me. I'm on my phone so reading the chart is like reading through a straw. So, you're saying the 2nd precision in pointless? Or both? How is precision for a cal scout when they are also cloaked? Isnt scanning related to dampening? I just started messing with scouts so I just threw on what fit my adv suit. Oh, and I have Lvl 5 damp and precision (kind of obvious since Im running complex mods). Well that entirely depends on the suit. For instance: Lets say you run an amarr/gallente scout with two highs, then yes, running two precision enhancers will allw you to see a gallente/amarr/caldari scout that is ONLY running a cloak, nothing more. This is a big part of the problem. They get to be invisible, and undetectable for the cost of one equipment slot. You have to spend two module slots to try to counter-act only half of that 1 equipment (2 modules allows you to see them on radar, no help visually.) 2 precision enhancers will not allow you to see a gallente scout under a cloak. Fixing swarms
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1190	Posted - 2014.04.15 01:12:00 - [103] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: This is a ridiculous statement made by some people. Let me show you why: Once I realized that the range enhancers only added 1m then the math was obvious. Don't waste any SP on them. With a Drop Suit Upgrade SP reset I wouldn't spend the SP on damage mods past ADV as PRO requires two skill levels and is worthless with the Nerf Hammer being applied. Which is why CCP/Shanghai doesn't want to ever allow SP refunds. They would rather Nerf you out of a benefit after the fact by removing the reason you spent the SP in the first place. And so it goes.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 804	Posted - 2014.04.15 01:32:00 - [104] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: This is a ridiculous statement made by some people. Let me show you why: Once I realized that the range enhancers only added 1m then the math was obvious. Don't waste any SP on them. With a Drop Suit Upgrade SP reset I wouldn't spend the SP on damage mods past ADV as PRO requires two skill levels and is worthless with the Nerf Hammer being applied. Which is why CCP/Shanghai doesn't want to ever allow SP refunds. They would rather Nerf you out of a benefit after the fact by removing the reason you spent the SP in the first place. well not nessecarily. Once again depnds on the suit and stuff. Here have a chart Fixing swarms
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 2786	Posted - 2014.04.15 01:44:00 - [105] - Quote remove the ******* cloak already weRideNDie2getha since 2010
ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 515	Posted - 2014.04.15 02:07:00 - [106] - Quote Magnus you almost touched on a missing point here. I agree with you on the cloak with the dampener being a problem, but remember it is an active module, that had its active counter nerfed hard prior to its release. The active scanner should be a hard counter to the cloak, but the whole thing was implemented wrong in my opinion. The active scanner is all but useless in the hands of anything other than a gal Logi, and with it's duration and cooldown times, even in the hands of a gal Logi make it laughable. The unit should work the same way as the cloak to be an effective counter, similar to the vehicle scanner in that it is scanning as long as it is out in a radius, but with no duration when out of range and only scanning while it's out. As soon as the wielder switches weapons, equipment, grenade, it shuts down. If the wielder is killed, scans are gone. It should have the same activation and cool down mechanic as the cloak, and skills, precision mods should improve its effectiveness. This way you have a piece of equipment that is usable by everyone, but only people with dedicated skills and modules can use it effectively. It should be expensive to fit to discourage over use, maybe even give a fitting bonus to all the logistic class similar to scouts cloak fitting bonus. This opinion is coming from someone who has Gal Logi lvl 5 and used scanners this build extensively, Gal Scout lvl 5 and used cloak damp quite a bit, and Cal Scout lvl 4 running with 2 complex precision amps. All my ewar skills are level 5. From my play, Cal's passive are OP to everyone but dedicated dampened and a Gal scouts, and Gal Scout is just straight up OP. Gal Logi is not worth the price you pay to be an effective scout counter with current scan mechanics. YouTube
Garth Mandra The Southern Legion League of Infamy 377	Posted - 2014.04.15 02:17:00 - [107] - Quote I also think that the dampening bonus from cloaks should be reduced (with progression up to proto) or removed. Cloaks with the 25% bonus just make it too easy to dodge active and passive scans. In my recent experience as a Cal scout passive scans are shared in some situations. I made a graph too. Should a gal logi with a focussed scanner be able to scan a super damped gal scout? Having counters to things is good especially when the counter is of a different type (ie. not a scout). Or perhaps have precision enhancers affect active scanners.
da GAND L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 754	Posted - 2014.04.15 02:39:00 - [108] - Quote CRYPT3C W0LF wrote: Just fit precision mods... Ya and how many of them? Rage at Fanfest??
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 814	Posted - 2014.04.15 02:53:00 - [109] - Quote ratamaq doc wrote: Magnus you almost touched on a missing point here. I agree with you on the cloak with the dampener being a problem, but remember it is an active module, that had its active counter nerfed hard prior to its release. The active scanner should be a hard counter to the cloak, but the whole thing was implemented wrong in my opinion. The active scanner is all but useless in the hands of anything other than a gal Logi, and with it's duration and cooldown times, even in the hands of a gal Logi make it laughable. The unit should work the same way as the cloak to be an effective counter, similar to the vehicle scanner in that it is scanning as long as it is out in a radius, but with no duration when out of range and only scanning while it's out. As soon as the wielder switches weapons, equipment, grenade, it shuts down. If the wielder is killed, scans are gone. It should have the same activation and cool down mechanic as the cloak, and skills, precision mods should improve its effectiveness. This way you have a piece of equipment that is usable by everyone, but only people with dedicated skills and modules can use it effectively. It should be expensive to fit to discourage over use, maybe even give a fitting bonus to all the logistic class similar to scouts cloak fitting bonus. This opinion is coming from someone who has Gal Logi lvl 5 and used scanners this build extensively, Gal Scout lvl 5 and used cloak damp quite a bit, and Cal Scout lvl 4 running with 2 complex precision amps. All my ewar skills are level 5. From my play, Cal's passive are OP to everyone but dedicated dampened and a Gal scouts, and Gal Scout is just straight up OP. Gal Logi is not worth the price you pay to be an effective scout counter with current scan mechanics. I can see what you are saying, and I do think it is a good, very good idea. You could alter the radius based upon having a normal scanner versus a focus (focused picking up lower dB but also lower scan radius) and then just make the gal logi be a radius bonus and/or duration bonus. Although there are multiple angles to come at it, like the active scanners could be a tool that intensifies the glow of a cloak, making cloaked suits way easier to see (but still translucent). I just don't have a ton of hope for things to go in such awesome directions. Also I try to propose the simplest solution to the problem, and that is CCP just deletes the profile dampening characteristic from cloaks. The gallente scout still becomes the only logi to evade the proto focus on a gal logi, but has to sacrifice 2 slots to dampeners to do so. Cal scout still requires four precision enhancers to see a 2 profile dampener gal scout, or 3 precision enhancers to see any other scout with 2 damps. Fixing swarms
KING CHECKMATE Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 5081	Posted - 2014.04.15 03:21:00 - [110] - Quote The Cloak has a 25% profile dampening that replaces the Previous 25% Profile dampening all scouts had. Now the math got broken when they also reduced Scout Scan Profile to 36db. Remove the 25% Profile dampening of cloaks so that if you want to pass under radars, you need to fit Profile dampeners, not only cloak. Example: GAl scout with cloak. 36db + 25% Dampening from cloak + 25% Dampening from Bonus = Armor tanked scout invisible to radars. If this was removed the 25% Profile dampening from the bonus would not counter a full e-war specialized scout like a cal scout. Not to mention the other scouts that DONT have a Prof Dampening bonus would need to equip them to even bypass the ADV scanner of a Proto Gal Logi.... Done. Like drones? = https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=153604&find=unread

Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5106	Posted - 2014.04.15 05:17:00 - [111] - Quote ratamaq doc wrote: Magnus you almost touched on a missing point here. Interesting that you say the point is missing from the conversation when this happened on the previous page... Garrett Blacknova wrote: The balance of dampening vs. precision - AND the value of scanners - needs tweaking. Maybe it would be a better idea to make scanners provide a fixed-range and fixed-arc scanning effect, but the precision is a bonus onto your suit's passive scan precision instead of a fixed value? Or maybe Scanners should be made more viable in some other way - NERF their base precision, but allow precision mods to apply to them, so an Active Scanner and mods will be an effective counter to a cloaked Scout if they don't dampen themselves as well? Pretty sure that's a more sensible version of the same thing you're saying. ratamaq doc wrote: I agree with you on the cloak with the dampener being a problem, but remember it is an active module, that had its active counter nerfed hard prior to its release. The active scanner should be a hard counter to the cloak, but the whole thing was implemented wrong in my opinion. The active scanner is all but useless in the hands of anything other than a gal Logi, and with it's duration and cooldown times, even in the hands of a gal Logi make it laughable. And this, while including just enough truth to sound logical, is laughable in its stupidity. A fully deceked out stealth build SHOULD be capable of hiding from EVERYTHING - EVEN a fully decked out scanning build. But it's ONLY a fully decked out stealth build that should do this. Active Scanners - or good passive scanning - shouldn't be a HARD counter to ALL cloakers, but should be a RELIABLE counter against MOST cloakers.
pyramidhead 420 Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 432	Posted - 2014.04.15 06:24:00 - [112] - Quote you just don't get it kid...smh. just because we cant pick up cloaked gal scouts in a medium frame doesn't mean they suck. ps your graph looks like that toilet paper I just used.........sh!tty
Yan Darn Science For Death 606	Posted - 2014.04.15 07:49:00 - [113] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: ratamaq doc wrote: I agree with you on the cloak with the dampener being a problem, but remember it is an active module, that had its active counter nerfed hard prior to its release. The active scanner should be a hard counter to the cloak, but the whole thing was implemented wrong in my opinion. The active scanner is all but useless in the hands of anything other than a gal Logi, and with it's duration and cooldown times, even in the hands of a gal Logi make it laughable. And this, while including just enough truth to sound logical, is laughable in its stupidity. A fully deceked out stealth build SHOULD be capable of hiding from EVERYTHING - EVEN a fully decked out scanning build. But it's ONLY a fully decked out stealth build that should do this. Active Scanners - or good passive scanning - shouldn't be a HARD counter to ALL cloakers, but should be a RELIABLE counter against MOST cloakers. ^ It's make no sense to say that the best scanner should ultimately beat out the best stealther - because, and I know this has been said in various contexts now, but seriously - the guy with a scanner still has eyes in their favour, in fact everybody has the innate potential to see even a cloaked scout. I don't think, in the context of improved scanning especially, we should be QQing all the way to saying that not even the stealth specialising scout can evade all scans if they sacrifice low slots to do it... The truth is, the overall mechanics of Ewar in DUST is just so badly implemented - Ewar based around a more analogue system of detection would make things a bit fairer and easier to balance IMO. The Ghost of Bravo
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 821	Posted - 2014.04.15 08:17:00 - [114] - Quote Yan Darn wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: ratamaq doc wrote: I agree with you on the cloak with the dampener being a problem, but remember it is an active module, that had its active counter nerfed hard prior to its release. The active scanner should be a hard counter to the cloak, but the whole thing was implemented wrong in my opinion. The active scanner is all but useless in the hands of anything other than a gal Logi, and with it's duration and cooldown times, even in the hands of a gal Logi make it laughable. And this, while including just enough truth to sound logical, is laughable in its stupidity. A fully deceked out stealth build SHOULD be capable of hiding from EVERYTHING - EVEN a fully decked out scanning build. But it's ONLY a fully decked out stealth build that should do this. Active Scanners - or good passive scanning - shouldn't be a HARD counter to ALL cloakers, but should be a RELIABLE counter against MOST cloakers. ^ It's make no sense to say that the best scanner should ultimately beat out the best stealther - because, and I know this has been said in various contexts now, but seriously - the guy with a scanner still has eyes in their favour, in fact everybody has the innate potential to see even a cloaked scout. I don't think, in the context of improved scanning especially, we should be QQing all the way to saying that not even the stealth specialising scout can evade all scans if they sacrifice low slots to do it... The truth is, the overall mechanics of Ewar in DUST is just so badly implemented - Ewar based around a more analogue system of detection would make things a bit fairer and easier to balance IMO. I am not saying that. I have been saying repeatedly that WITHOUT the free non-stacking-penalized complex dampening module on the cloak, it is completely possible to become completely invisible, the difference being that without the attribute on a cloak, it isn't ridiculously easy. Fixing swarms
ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 519	Posted - 2014.04.15 10:31:00 - [115] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Yan Darn wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: ratamaq doc wrote: I agree with you on the cloak with the dampener being a problem, but remember it is an active module, that had its active counter nerfed hard prior to its release. The active scanner should be a hard counter to the cloak, but the whole thing was implemented wrong in my opinion. The active scanner is all but useless in the hands of anything other than a gal Logi, and with it's duration and cooldown times, even in the hands of a gal Logi make it laughable. And this, while including just enough truth to sound logical, is laughable in its stupidity. A fully deceked out stealth build SHOULD be capable of hiding from EVERYTHING - EVEN a fully decked out scanning build. But it's ONLY a fully decked out stealth build that should do this. Active Scanners - or good passive scanning - shouldn't be a HARD counter to ALL cloakers, but should be a RELIABLE counter against MOST cloakers. ^ It's make no sense to say that the best scanner should ultimately beat out the best stealther - because, and I know this has been said in various contexts now, but seriously - the guy with a scanner still has eyes in their favour, in fact everybody has the innate potential to see even a cloaked scout. I don't think, in the context of improved scanning especially, we should be QQing all the way to saying that not even the stealth specialising scout can evade all scans if they sacrifice low slots to do it... The truth is, the overall mechanics of Ewar in DUST is just so badly implemented - Ewar based around a more analogue system of detection would make things a bit fairer and easier to balance IMO. I am not saying that. I have been saying repeatedly that WITHOUT the free non-stacking-penalized complex dampening module on the cloak, it is completely possible to become completely invisible, the difference being that without the attribute on a cloak, it isn't ridiculously easy. You 2 (not Magnus) missed my point also. I'm not saying That the cloak should be beatable if fully dampened, right now it's too easily defeated. The best possible dampened and cloaked scout while cloaked should be able to beat the best possible precision enhanced scanner. This is the case now, but the only scanner that can beat most skilled partially dampened cloaked scouts now is an overly expensive, narrow beamed, short duration LONG cool down scanner, and it has to be used by a single suit class at lvl 5. You have to be lucky to hit a scout with that thing. To keep with the prior spirit of dampeners beat enhancers, 2 enhancers beat 1 dampener, 2 enhancers plus scanner beat 1 dampener plus cloak. I also think this is a pipe dream, so I agree that the simplest solution would be to remove the dampening bonus, I'm just worried that this leave the Cal Scout as king of sight hands down. In my experience, that vision is shared and is worse than an active scanner because it's always on and gives no warning to the scanned. YouTube
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 827	Posted - 2014.04.15 13:42:00 - [116] - Quote ratamaq doc wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Yan Darn wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: ratamaq doc wrote: I agree with you on the cloak with the dampener being a problem, but remember it is an active module, that had its active counter nerfed hard prior to its release. The active scanner should be a hard counter to the cloak, but the whole thing was implemented wrong in my opinion. The active scanner is all but useless in the hands of anything other than a gal Logi, and with it's duration and cooldown times, even in the hands of a gal Logi make it laughable. And this, while including just enough truth to sound logical, is laughable in its stupidity. A fully deceked out stealth build SHOULD be capable of hiding from EVERYTHING - EVEN a fully decked out scanning build. But it's ONLY a fully decked out stealth build that should do this. Active Scanners - or good passive scanning - shouldn't be a HARD counter to ALL cloakers, but should be a RELIABLE counter against MOST cloakers. ^ It's make no sense to say that the best scanner should ultimately beat out the best stealther - because, and I know this has been said in various contexts now, but seriously - the guy with a scanner still has eyes in their favour, in fact everybody has the innate potential to see even a cloaked scout. I don't think, in the context of improved scanning especially, we should be QQing all the way to saying that not even the stealth specialising scout can evade all scans if they sacrifice low slots to do it... The truth is, the overall mechanics of Ewar in DUST is just so badly implemented - Ewar based around a more analogue system of detection would make things a bit fairer and easier to balance IMO. I am not saying that. I have been saying repeatedly that WITHOUT the free non-stacking-penalized complex dampening module on the cloak, it is completely possible to become completely invisible, the difference being that without the attribute on a cloak, it isn't ridiculously easy. You 2 (not Magnus) missed my point also. I'm not saying That the cloak should be beatable if fully dampened, right now it's too easily defeated. The best possible dampened and cloaked scout while cloaked should be able to beat the best possible precision enhanced scanner. This is the case now, but the only scanner that can beat most skilled partially dampened cloaked scouts now is an overly expensive, narrow beamed, short duration LONG cool down scanner, and it has to be used by a single suit class at lvl 5. You have to be lucky to hit a scout with that thing. To keep with the prior spirit of dampeners beat enhancers, 2 enhancers beat 1 dampener, 2 enhancers plus scanner beat 1 dampener plus cloak. I also think this is a pipe dream, so I agree that the simplest solution would be to remove the dampening bonus, I'm just worried that this leave the Cal Scout as king of sight hands down. In my experience, that vision is shared and is worse than an active scanner because it's always on and gives no warning to the scanned. I wasn't able to get that scanning sharing to show-up in-game, but I suggest everyone who does to submit a bug report/ticket in order to get that fixed. I mean it is plain as day CCP didn't intend to share that, and there is no way in hell it should be shared. Fixing swarms
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1453	Posted - 2014.04.15 13:53:00 - [117] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: This is a ridiculous statement made by some people. Let me show you why: Hover zoom or clicky The above bar graph shows how precision enhancers are mostly underpowered because of the added dampening of the cloak. Oh and for all of you guys saying fit precision enhancers on medium/heavy suits(logi for the graph): Hover zoom or clicky Stop saying that, it is not a good idea. TLDR: First link shows how scouts precision lines up with dampening. Cloaks make dampening too strong Second link shows why precision enhancers on mediums or above is stupid. EDIT: Here is the point of it all. If you look at that graph, there is no bonus to cloaks. All of the sudden, Ewar is balanced once again between the scouts (although balance between scouts and other suits in the ewar department is still wonky) I have a Gal Log, Amar Logi, Cal Logi in the Team with 2-3 PE and 1-2 RA on their suit... They got out of their Shield Extender and Stacked Armor plate shells to have some fun... Please try it before quoting graphs and stuff... Also making 200hp scouts visible would bring back all Assault/Commando/Heavy + Rifle suits.... Will post on your Assault/Comando is OP threads then
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 265	Posted - 2014.04.15 13:57:00 - [118] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I wasn't able to get that scanning sharing to show-up in-game, but I suggest everyone who does to submit a bug report/ticket in order to get that fixed. I mean it is plain as day CCP didn't intend to share that, and there is no way in hell it should be shared. Shared Squad Sight encourages Squad Diversity. It addresses the concerns you've laid out about profile and precision. Why shouldn't it exist? Bang?
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 827	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:02:00 - [119] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I wasn't able to get that scanning sharing to show-up in-game, but I suggest everyone who does to submit a bug report/ticket in order to get that fixed. I mean it is plain as day CCP didn't intend to share that, and there is no way in hell it should be shared. Shared Squad Sight encourages Squad Diversity. It addresses the concerns you've laid out about profile and precision. Why shouldn't it exist? 1) CCP specifically took it out of the game when they fixed active scanners 2) They have said nothing about re-instating it 3) It is too powerful, it is like the active scanners of pre-1.8 except always on and with no warning, no cooldown, no activation, no scaning arc, no weapon-switching. Honestly if you can't see that this is game-breaking... well I .... I have no clue what to say... Oh and this is a PRETTY MAJOR change that goes directly against what CCP themselves have ACTIVELY done. Fixing swarms
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1453	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:05:00 - [120] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I wasn't able to get that scanning sharing to show-up in-game, but I suggest everyone who does to submit a bug report/ticket in order to get that fixed. I mean it is plain as day CCP didn't intend to share that, and there is no way in hell it should be shared. Shared Squad Sight encourages Squad Diversity. It addresses the concerns you've laid out about profile and precision. Why shouldn't it exist? 1) CCP specifically took it out of the game when they fixed active scanners 2) They have said nothing about re-instating it 3) It is too powerful, it is like the active scanners of pre-1.8 except always on and with no warning, no cooldown, no activation, no scaning arc, no weapon-switching. Honestly if you can't see that this is game-breaking... well I .... I have no clue what to say... Oh and this is a PRETTY MAJOR change that goes directly against what CCP themselves have ACTIVELY done. Sacrifice a slot or two to counter your concerns if you really are that concerned... I have been scanned... Yes i've seen "You have been scanned" on my screen when i was fully cloaked with porfile dampener... Gal Logi + Scanner + Proper equipment... Try it out... It works...

Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 827	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:11:00 - [121] - Quote NAV HIV wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I wasn't able to get that scanning sharing to show-up in-game, but I suggest everyone who does to submit a bug report/ticket in order to get that fixed. I mean it is plain as day CCP didn't intend to share that, and there is no way in hell it should be shared. Shared Squad Sight encourages Squad Diversity. It addresses the concerns you've laid out about profile and precision. Why shouldn't it exist? 1) CCP specifically took it out of the game when they fixed active scanners 2) They have said nothing about re-instating it 3) It is too powerful, it is like the active scanners of pre-1.8 except always on and with no warning, no cooldown, no activation, no scaning arc, no weapon-switching. Honestly if you can't see that this is game-breaking... well I .... I have no clue what to say... Oh and this is a PRETTY MAJOR change that goes directly against what CCP themselves have ACTIVELY done. Sacrifice a slot or two to counter your concerns if you really are that concerned... I have been scanned... Yes i've seen "You have been scanned" on my screen when i was fully cloaked with porfile dampener... Gal Logi + Scanner + Proper equipment... Try it out... It works... First and foremost, you weren't in a gallente scout suit otherwise you wouldn't have been scanned. Second the gal-logi got incredibly lucky because of how broken scanners are right now, how small the scanning arc for the proto focused is, and the fact that you only fit one dampener. Lastly, what you said had nothing at all to do with what was being discussed, and was something anyone could have surmised looking at some of the prior graphs. I know somewhere you must have been thinking "This will show 'em" but in the end you just adding absolutely nothing to the discussion while looking foolish. Fixing swarms
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 267	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:12:00 - [122] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I wasn't able to get that scanning sharing to show-up in-game, but I suggest everyone who does to submit a bug report/ticket in order to get that fixed. I mean it is plain as day CCP didn't intend to share that, and there is no way in hell it should be shared. Shared Squad Sight encourages Squad Diversity. It addresses the concerns you've laid out about profile and precision. Why shouldn't it exist? 1) CCP specifically took it out of the game when they fixed active scanners 2) They have said nothing about re-instating it 3) It is too powerful, it is like the active scanners of pre-1.8 except always on and with no warning, no cooldown, no activation, no scaning arc, no weapon-switching. Honestly if you can't see that this is game-breaking... well I .... I have no clue what to say... Oh and this is a PRETTY MAJOR change that goes directly against what CCP themselves have ACTIVELY done. 1) Irrelevant 2) Irrelevant 3) Good Point So about that Scout, who is "Scouting" for his squad, cloaked and surrounded by hostiles ... * He's likely Caldari running Precision in his Highs and Extenders in his Lows. * He weighs in at ~300 HP. * He strictly hunts stragglers; should he move to close to the herd, he'll be spotted and insta-gibbed. * He cannot see the dampened GalScouts, who no doubt lurk about. * An enemy CalScout in the area will absolutely detect him, which he cannot counter. * An enemy GalLogi in the area might detect him, which he cannot counter. * Once detected, he's toast. Unless he's good at E&E. Lots of variables; lots of risk. Quite different from a 1000HP Slayer Logi w/Proto Scanner, lighting up a 100m radius around his squad of 1000HP Slayer Logis (zero variables; zero risk). Bang?
ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 522	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:18:00 - [123] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I wasn't able to get that scanning sharing to show-up in-game, but I suggest everyone who does to submit a bug report/ticket in order to get that fixed. I mean it is plain as day CCP didn't intend to share that, and there is no way in hell it should be shared. There are a few members other than myself that PVR. I'll try to get a proof video together. Someone in the thread said that a range amp is required, I will try to test both. But I do know that in PC, we were deploying a Cal Scout to sit in the center of the city to light up everything. In non scientific game play testing, it seemed to work for us. Running as a Cal Scout and asking squad members if they could see enemy cloak scouts on their mini, the results seemed positive, but again this was not science. YouTube
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 835	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:21:00 - [124] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I wasn't able to get that scanning sharing to show-up in-game, but I suggest everyone who does to submit a bug report/ticket in order to get that fixed. I mean it is plain as day CCP didn't intend to share that, and there is no way in hell it should be shared. Shared Squad Sight encourages Squad Diversity. It addresses the concerns you've laid out about profile and precision. Why shouldn't it exist? 1) CCP specifically took it out of the game when they fixed active scanners 2) They have said nothing about re-instating it 3) It is too powerful, it is like the active scanners of pre-1.8 except always on and with no warning, no cooldown, no activation, no scaning arc, no weapon-switching. Honestly if you can't see that this is game-breaking... well I .... I have no clue what to say... Oh and this is a PRETTY MAJOR change that goes directly against what CCP themselves have ACTIVELY done. 1) Irrelevant 2) Irrelevant 3) Good Point So about that Scout, who is "Scouting" for his squad, cloaked and surrounded by hostiles ... * He's likely Caldari running Precision in his Highs and Extenders in his Lows. * He weighs in at ~300 HP. * If hunts stragglers; should he move to close to the herd, he'll be spotted and insta-gibbed. * He cannot see the dampened GalScouts, who no doubt lurk about. * An enemy CalScout in the area will absolutely detect him. Lots of variables. Lots of risks. Quite different from the 1000HP Slayer Logi w/Scanner, lighting up a 100m radius around his squad of 1000HP Slayer Logis. Just because you can't understand that the current functionality of shared scanning is not part of game design, and that it is actually completely opposite of stated game design, doesn't make any point irrelvant. Ok, so apparently being completely helpless while scanning isn't a downside, or being cloaked while being able to instantly fire/run/jump isn't an upside. Being slow as a tortoise isn't a downside, or fast as a fox isn't an upside. Look, I can frame an argument wrapped in bullshit all I want too, but it is still going to smell like yours does. The simple fact of the matter is: CCP specifically disabled shared squad vision for passives 75m 13-dB always on, squad-shared, and cloaked scanner isn't balanced (don't be stupid) 1.7 scanners weren't balanced either Fixing swarms
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1454	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:26:00 - [125] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I wasn't able to get that scanning sharing to show-up in-game, but I suggest everyone who does to submit a bug report/ticket in order to get that fixed. I mean it is plain as day CCP didn't intend to share that, and there is no way in hell it should be shared. Shared Squad Sight encourages Squad Diversity. It addresses the concerns you've laid out about profile and precision. Why shouldn't it exist? 1) CCP specifically took it out of the game when they fixed active scanners 2) They have said nothing about re-instating it 3) It is too powerful, it is like the active scanners of pre-1.8 except always on and with no warning, no cooldown, no activation, no scaning arc, no weapon-switching. Honestly if you can't see that this is game-breaking... well I .... I have no clue what to say... Oh and this is a PRETTY MAJOR change that goes directly against what CCP themselves have ACTIVELY done. 1) Irrelevant 2) Irrelevant 3) Good Point So about that Scout, who is "Scouting" for his squad, cloaked and surrounded by hostiles ... * He's likely Caldari running Precision in his Highs and Extenders in his Lows. * He weighs in at ~300 HP. * He strictly hunts stragglers; should he move to close to the herd, he'll be spotted and insta-gibbed. * He cannot see the dampened GalScouts, who no doubt lurk about. * An enemy CalScout in the area will absolutely detect him, which he cannot counter. * An enemy GalLogi in the area might detect him, which he cannot counter. * Once detected, he's toast. Unless he's good at E&E. Lots of variables; lots of risk. Quite different from a 1000HP Slayer Logi w/Proto Scanner, lighting up a 100m radius around his squad of 1000HP Slayer Logis (zero variables; zero risk). Well Said * He also cost around 150-185k * Has about 250 EHP * Gal Logi = Dead cal scout * Another Cal Scout = Dead cal scout * Not used for charging a hoard * Used for hunting low level and brick tanked scouts * Used for flanking the enemy * Used for helping the Sqaud, Especially through comms * Better than anyone with a scanner, Jumping and doing a 360 scan and having "You have been scanned" for majority of the time on your screen... * Now that scanning involves a bit mote dedication and skills, all of a sudden everyone is complaining about scans ?!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 268	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:30:00 - [126] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Look, I can frame an argument wrapped in bullshit all I want too ^ A precise description of your current position, Magnus. I believe I may have asked you, once before ... That gilded helm of yours so massive; can you not find room for reason? Bang?
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1455	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:30:00 - [127] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I wasn't able to get that scanning sharing to show-up in-game, but I suggest everyone who does to submit a bug report/ticket in order to get that fixed. I mean it is plain as day CCP didn't intend to share that, and there is no way in hell it should be shared. Shared Squad Sight encourages Squad Diversity. It addresses the concerns you've laid out about profile and precision. Why shouldn't it exist? 1) CCP specifically took it out of the game when they fixed active scanners 2) They have said nothing about re-instating it 3) It is too powerful, it is like the active scanners of pre-1.8 except always on and with no warning, no cooldown, no activation, no scaning arc, no weapon-switching. Honestly if you can't see that this is game-breaking... well I .... I have no clue what to say... Oh and this is a PRETTY MAJOR change that goes directly against what CCP themselves have ACTIVELY done. 1) Irrelevant 2) Irrelevant 3) Good Point So about that Scout, who is "Scouting" for his squad, cloaked and surrounded by hostiles ... * He's likely Caldari running Precision in his Highs and Extenders in his Lows. * He weighs in at ~300 HP. * If hunts stragglers; should he move to close to the herd, he'll be spotted and insta-gibbed. * He cannot see the dampened GalScouts, who no doubt lurk about. * An enemy CalScout in the area will absolutely detect him. Lots of variables. Lots of risks. Quite different from the 1000HP Slayer Logi w/Scanner, lighting up a 100m radius around his squad of 1000HP Slayer Logis. Just because you can't understand that the current functionality of shared scanning is not part of game design, and that it is actually completely opposite of stated game design, doesn't make any point irrelvant. Ok, so apparently being completely helpless while scanning isn't a downside, or being cloaked while being able to instantly fire/run/jump isn't an upside. Being slow as a tortoise isn't a downside, or fast as a fox isn't an upside. Look, I can frame an argument wrapped in bullshit all I want too, but it is still going to smell like yours does. The simple fact of the matter is: CCP specifically disabled shared squad vision for passives 75m 13-dB always on, squad-shared, and cloaked scanner isn't balanced (don't be stupid) 1.7 scanners weren't balanced either All of the members in my Squad use comms... I know where they are and they know where i am... Would you call Comms OP now ?! - 75m and 13 db ?! LOL On what suit ?! - 1.7 scanner were the stupidest things there... - Why would you be completely helpless while scanning ?! - CCP fixed that Shooting while cloaked thing. but i think decloaking should be done manually, not through swapping weapons - Use your suits properly and enjoy it...
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 835	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:32:00 - [128] - Quote NAV HIV wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I wasn't able to get that scanning sharing to show-up in-game, but I suggest everyone who does to submit a bug report/ticket in order to get that fixed. I mean it is plain as day CCP didn't intend to share that, and there is no way in hell it should be shared. Shared Squad Sight encourages Squad Diversity. It addresses the concerns you've laid out about profile and precision. Why shouldn't it exist? 1) CCP specifically took it out of the game when they fixed active scanners 2) They have said nothing about re-instating it 3) It is too powerful, it is like the active scanners of pre-1.8 except always on and with no warning, no cooldown, no activation, no scaning arc, no weapon-switching. Honestly if you can't see that this is game-breaking... well I .... I have no clue what to say... Oh and this is a PRETTY MAJOR change that goes directly against what CCP themselves have ACTIVELY done. 1) Irrelevant 2) Irrelevant 3) Good Point So about that Scout, who is "Scouting" for his squad, cloaked and surrounded by hostiles ... * He's likely Caldari running Precision in his Highs and Extenders in his Lows. * He weighs in at ~300 HP. * He strictly hunts stragglers; should he move to close to the herd, he'll be spotted and insta-gibbed. * He cannot see the dampened GalScouts, who no doubt lurk about. * An enemy CalScout in the area will absolutely detect him, which he cannot counter. * An enemy GalLogi in the area might detect him, which he cannot counter. * Once detected, he's toast. Unless he's good at E&E. Lots of variables; lots of risk. Quite different from a 1000HP Slayer Logi w/Proto Scanner, lighting up a 100m radius around his squad of 1000HP Slayer Logis (zero variables; zero risk). Well Said * He also cost around 150-185k *gallogi cost the same* * Has about 250 EHP * Gal Logi = Dead cal scout logi meet cloaky shotgun * Another Cal Scout = Dead cal scout *works both ways* * Not used for charging a hoard cloaky SG * Used for hunting low level and brick tanked scouts *or other cal scouts and cloaky SG = dead everything* * Used for flanking the enemy to kill with insta-gib cloaky SG * Used for helping the Sqaud, Especially through comms *same as pre 1.8 scanners cept better* * Better than anyone with a scanner, Jumping and doing a 360 scan and having "You have been scanned" for majority of the time on your screen... yeah it is more powerful you are right * Now that scanning involves a bit mote dedication and skills, all of a sudden everyone is complaining about scans ?! more skills? yeah, lvl 5 cal scout, lvl 5 range, lvl 5 precision... done Ok so I can see you are just a pedanitic pain in the butt, nit-picking any possible scenrio you can in order to try to cling to some point that has long been lost in the pile of crap you have been spewing. Have fun on ignore list. Fixing swarms
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 835	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:36:00 - [129] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Look, I can frame an argument wrapped in bullshit all I want too ^ A precise description of your current position, Magnus. I believe I may have asked you, once before ... That gilded helm of yours is massive; can there be no room for reason? Hey look, another forum go'er who has no evidence, no proof of any type. Someone who can not present a logical and/or well thought out argument, does not have any mathematical models, graphs, charts, developer comments, or any type of credible argument to leverage in any way at all. Welcome to ignore troll. Fixing swarms
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 268	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:37:00 - [130] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Ok so I can see you are just a pedanitic pain in the butt, nit-picking any possible scenrio you can in order to try to cling to some point that has long been lost in the pile of crap you have been spewing. Have fun on ignore list. He is right, and you are wrong. Rather than weighing his position, you choose to ignore him. Are you here to stomp your feet, Magnus? Or are you here to debate your ill-grounded argument? Bang?

ratamaq doc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 522	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:40:00 - [131] - Quote NAV HIV wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I wasn't able to get that scanning sharing to show-up in-game, but I suggest everyone who does to submit a bug report/ticket in order to get that fixed. I mean it is plain as day CCP didn't intend to share that, and there is no way in hell it should be shared. Shared Squad Sight encourages Squad Diversity. It addresses the concerns you've laid out about profile and precision. Why shouldn't it exist? 1) CCP specifically took it out of the game when they fixed active scanners 2) They have said nothing about re-instating it 3) It is too powerful, it is like the active scanners of pre-1.8 except always on and with no warning, no cooldown, no activation, no scaning arc, no weapon-switching. Honestly if you can't see that this is game-breaking... well I .... I have no clue what to say... Oh and this is a PRETTY MAJOR change that goes directly against what CCP themselves have ACTIVELY done. 1) Irrelevant 2) Irrelevant 3) Good Point So about that Scout, who is "Scouting" for his squad, cloaked and surrounded by hostiles ... * He's likely Caldari running Precision in his Highs and Extenders in his Lows. * He weighs in at ~300 HP. * He strictly hunts stragglers; should he move to close to the herd, he'll be spotted and insta-gibbed. * He cannot see the dampened GalScouts, who no doubt lurk about. * An enemy CalScout in the area will absolutely detect him, which he cannot counter. * An enemy GalLogi in the area might detect him, which he cannot counter. * Once detected, he's toast. Unless he's good at E&E. Lots of variables; lots of risk. Quite different from a 1000HP Slayer Logi w/Proto Scanner, lighting up a 100m radius around his squad of 1000HP Slayer Logis (zero variables; zero risk). Well Said * He also cost around 150-185k * Has about 250 EHP * Gal Logi = Dead cal scout * Another Cal Scout = Dead cal scout * Not used for charging a hoard * Used for hunting low level and brick tanked scouts * Used for flanking the enemy * Used for helping the Sqaud, Especially through comms * Better than anyone with a scanner, Jumping and doing a 360 scan and having "You have been scanned" for majority of the time on your screen... * Now that scanning involves a bit mote dedication and skills, all of a sudden everyone is complaining about scans ?! While the Cal Scout is the Bain of other scouts, in this you should keep in mind the Gal Scout also if shared squad vision is enabled. A Cal Scout sacrificing his highs for precision does leave him pretty gimped, but the Gal scout gets the same bonus to range, has two highs it can equip PEs to bring it's precision down to 24.9 DB (not detecting full skilled cloaked scouts, but EVERYTHING else) and has an abundance of lows (3 at standard and ADV, 4 at proto) to still tank, damp, amp, and gets the 3hp/s armor rep bonus naturally so no need to use one of the lows for a repper. I love my Cal Scout for hunting other scouts, but my ADV Gal Scout build runs 2 complex PEs, 1 complex Dampener, 1 complex amp, a cloak to drop me below what even a Cal Scout with 3 complex PEs can detect, and one plate, so it's sitting well about that flimsy <300 ehp, invisible, and see almost everything for the same distance, and has more distance potential as the Cal Scout. YouTube
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 835	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:42:00 - [132] - Quote ratamaq doc wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I wasn't able to get that scanning sharing to show-up in-game, but I suggest everyone who does to submit a bug report/ticket in order to get that fixed. I mean it is plain as day CCP didn't intend to share that, and there is no way in hell it should be shared. There are a few members other than myself that PVR. I'll try to get a proof video together. Someone in the thread said that a range amp is required, I will try to test both. But I do know that in PC, we were deploying a Cal Scout to sit in the center of the city to light up everything. In non scientific game play testing, it seemed to work for us. Running as a Cal Scout and asking squad members if they could see enemy cloak scouts on their mini, the results seemed positive, but again this was not science. If you could get any of them to PVR that would be awesome. Thanks. Anyway back on topic. Cloaks with dampeners are completely disrupting the Ewar interplay that was previously balanced, and would be without a free non-stacking-penalized complex dampening module. The evidence is on the first page for anyone to see. I just hope CCP decides to take a look. Fixing swarms
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1455	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:42:00 - [133] - Quote * He also cost around 150-185k *gallogi cost the same* * Has about 250 EHP * Gal Logi = Dead cal scout logi meet cloaky shotgun * Another Cal Scout = Dead cal scout *works both ways* * Not used for charging a hoard cloaky SG * Used for hunting low level and brick tanked scouts *or other cal scouts and cloaky SG = dead everything* * Used for flanking the enemy to kill with insta-gib cloaky SG * Used for helping the Sqaud, Especially through comms *same as pre 1.8 scanners cept better* * Better than anyone with a scanner, Jumping and doing a 360 scan and having "You have been scanned" for majority of the time on your screen... yeah it is more powerful you are right * Now that scanning involves a bit mote dedication and skills, all of a sudden everyone is complaining about scans ?! more skills? yeah, lvl 5 cal scout, lvl 5 range, lvl 5 precision... done [/quote] Ok so I can see you are just a pedanitic pain in the butt, nit-picking any possible scenrio you can in order to try to cling to some point that has long been lost in the pile of crap you have been spewing. Have fun on ignore list.[/quote] You missed the parts where * if it cost the same you should know that it works the same with 2-300 extra ehp Cal scout needs to have 3 PE for it to work well Even without any HP modules Gal Logi or any logi has more HP than a Cal Scout - IF you can't kill it then you are just a lol * Cloaky SG - If other team isn't using their modules properly and brick tanking the **** out of their suits, it isn't a shotty scouts fault * Cal scout + Shotty Scout - Counter it with Cal Logi + Gal Logi = If you see them, then even with aim assist on, it shouldn't be that hard to kill them * Well use your suits now properly... And don't try to solo ninja a scout in a logi suit... Teamwork/Squad Work is OP * level 5 Cal Scout 2.5 mil SP + Level 5 Profile Dampening A lot of SP + Level 5 PE a lot of SP - Suit Setup = No HP Shouldn't be that hard to kill. This is when people say Get Gud
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1455	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:44:00 - [134] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Look, I can frame an argument wrapped in bullshit all I want too ^ A precise description of your current position, Magnus. I believe I may have asked you, once before ... That gilded helm of yours is massive; can there be no room for reason? Hey look, another forum go'er who has no evidence, no proof of any type. Someone who can not present a logical and/or well thought out argument, does not have any mathematical models, graphs, charts, developer comments, or any type of credible argument to leverage in any way at all. Welcome to ignore troll. Look another crybaby just crying without even trying out all the possible solutions... * Gal Logi is Cal, Min, Amar scout Killer * Cal Logi + Cal Scout is a Gal scout killer... I haven't seen a single gal scout with 4 PD yet.. So it's not very difficult to kill them
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 835	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:45:00 - [135] - Quote ratamaq doc wrote: While the Cal Scout is the Bain of other scouts, in this you should keep in mind the Gal Scout also if shared squad vision is enabled. A Cal Scout sacrificing his highs for precision does leave him pretty gimped, but the Gal scout gets the same bonus to range, has two highs it can equip PEs to bring it's precision down to 24.9 DB (not detecting full skilled cloaked scouts, but EVERYTHING else) and has an abundance of lows (3 at standard and ADV, 4 at proto) to still tank, damp, amp, and gets the 3hp/s armor rep bonus naturally so no need to use one of the lows for a repper. I love my Cal Scout for hunting other scouts, but my ADV Gal Scout build runs 2 complex PEs, 1 complex Dampener, 1 complex amp, a cloak to drop me below what even a Cal Scout with 3 complex PEs can detect, and one plate, so it's sitting well about that flimsy <300 ehp, invisible, and see almost everything for the same distance, and has more distance potential as the Cal Scout. Honestly it is not worth your time ratamaq. What we have here is a bad case of internet troll with a side of neckbeard. The only way to solve it is to ignore it. "Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you down with experience." Fixing swarms
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1456	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:54:00 - [136] - Quote While the Cal Scout is the Bain of other scouts, in this you should keep in mind the Gal Scout also if shared squad vision is enabled. A Cal Scout sacrificing his highs for precision does leave him pretty gimped, but the Gal scout gets the same bonus to range, has two highs it can equip PEs to bring it's precision down to 24.9 DB (not detecting full skilled cloaked scouts, but EVERYTHING else) and has an abundance of lows (3 at standard and ADV, 4 at proto) to still tank, damp, amp, and gets the 3hp/s armor rep bonus naturally so no need to use one of the lows for a repper. I love my Cal Scout for hunting other scouts, but my ADV Gal Scout build runs 2 complex PEs, 1 complex Dampener, 1 complex amp, a cloak to drop me below what even a Cal Scout with 3 complex PEs can detect, and one plate, so it's sitting well about that flimsy <300 ehp, invisible, and see almost everything for the same distance, and has more distance potential as the Cal Scout.[/quote] it is very true... But it is a bit difficult to fight other cal scouts for me... Specially if they are communicating with the squad... Gal scout honestly can fit a lot to those low slots... I know they die a lot when they brick tank, but they are a stronger when they use proper modules...
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1456	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:56:00 - [137] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: ratamaq doc wrote: While the Cal Scout is the Bain of other scouts, in this you should keep in mind the Gal Scout also if shared squad vision is enabled. A Cal Scout sacrificing his highs for precision does leave him pretty gimped, but the Gal scout gets the same bonus to range, has two highs it can equip PEs to bring it's precision down to 24.9 DB (not detecting full skilled cloaked scouts, but EVERYTHING else) and has an abundance of lows (3 at standard and ADV, 4 at proto) to still tank, damp, amp, and gets the 3hp/s armor rep bonus naturally so no need to use one of the lows for a repper. I love my Cal Scout for hunting other scouts, but my ADV Gal Scout build runs 2 complex PEs, 1 complex Dampener, 1 complex amp, a cloak to drop me below what even a Cal Scout with 3 complex PEs can detect, and one plate, so it's sitting well about that flimsy <300 ehp, invisible, and see almost everything for the same distance, and has more distance potential as the Cal Scout. Honestly it is not worth your time ratamaq. What we have here is a bad case of internet troll with a side of neckbeard. The only way to solve it is to ignore it. "Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you down with experience." Don't brick tank a scout like an idiot Don't brick tank a logi suit like an idiot Try running something other than Shields and Armor and comeback and repost.... Solo Ninja in medium suit is not the way to go...
Yan Darn Science For Death 608	Posted - 2014.04.15 15:05:00 - [138] - Quote @ Magnus - sorry, I see how that came across, it wasn't really directed at you. @ ratamaq - I get what you are saying, IMO scanners were over nerfed - they should have fixed the glitches and then assess balance changes (like what they should do with the cloak), but instead they did another AV/Tank scenario and buffed one side while nerfing the other. Removing damp off cloaks just makes our role bonus (more) restrictive - please don't forget, unlike other roles we are stuck with a bonus to this specific Item (I.e. no cloak, no bonus) without a damp bonus in the cloak itself it becomes just a gimmick, however upping the base profile of the suits makes it more difficult for new players to get anything from the stealth element of a scout since they have to skill up scout for the cloaks (which needs CPU/Engineering really as well) as well as profile dampening to even get under ADV dampeners. Someone with some serious maths skills would have to look over the possibilities and drawbacks - but then I always come back to the fact, that as long as we have this ewar system with hard limits where you either detect someone or don't it will always be unfair to someone, whether its the scout, the scanner or a new player. The Ghost of Bravo
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 502	Posted - 2014.04.15 22:29:00 - [139] - Quote IMPROVED GRAPH--EWAR PROPOSAL
Alena Ventrallis PAND3M0N1UM Top Men. 1185	Posted - 2014.04.15 22:38:00 - [140] - Quote Remove cloak dampening bonus. would go a long way to helping out scanners. That's what you get!! - DA Rick

Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 854	Posted - 2014.04.15 23:47:00 - [141] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: IMPROVED GRAPH--EWAR PROPOSAL Awesome work man. EDIT: oh if you remove the preceeding i in the imgur link, you can get the image to work with hoverzoom (which is really nice) as I did above. Fixing swarms


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