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Toby Flenderson
research lab
467
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Posted - 2014.04.12 15:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:This is a ridiculous statement made by some people. Let me show you why: Hover zoom or clickyThe above bar graph shows how precision enhancers are mostly underpowered because of the added dampening of the cloak. Oh and for all of you guys saying fit precision enhancers on medium/heavy suits(logi for the graph): Hover zoom or clickyStop saying that, it is not a good idea. TLDR: First link shows how scouts precision lines up with dampening. Cloaks make dampening too strong Second link shows why precision enhancers on mediums or above is stupid. EDIT: Here is the point of it all. If you look at that graph, there is no bonus to cloaks. All of the sudden, Ewar is balanced once again between the scouts (although balance between scouts and other suits in the ewar department is still wonky)
Not every scout uses dampeners. Another scout who loads precision enhancers can see most other scouts, except of course for those countering with dampeners. Just because there is a fitting that counters precision doesn't mean that fitting each number of mods is UP. It just means you have to be a step or two ahead of them, and if they choose to dampen as well then you're out of luck. You shouldn't see cloaked scouts easily, thought I do think the bonus from cloaks is too much. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
467
|
Posted - 2014.04.12 15:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
it also looks like a logi with 2 precision mods can see a cloaked non-gallente scout with no dampeners. Does this really need to be easier? Sacrificing one module to counter 75% of scouts is way too easy, so they require 2 to counter them. The scout can choose to beat this counter by sacrificing 1 module for a dampener. If people are still complaining about how hard it is to spot a dampened/cloaked scout then they clearly picked the wrong suit.
It's actually funny how no one seemed to care about passive scans and didn't pick their suits accordingly. Now there are threads all over the place "my medium suit can't see scouts = scouts are OP". It's like if a scout said "I can't take on a heavy in a gunfight = heavies are OP". |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
471
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 05:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:
What is on display, and what I take issue with, is that by fitting one module in addition to the cloak, a scout becomes unscannable to all but one suit. That is not tactical, there is no interplay between precision enhancement and dampening. It becomes an analog function, either you are sometimes seen or never seen, that is it. This is not balance.
no you are making a false statement. I am not arguing that other suits should have an easy time seeing scouts, I am arguing that ewar as it is is completely messed up thanks to the non-stacking-penalized complex dampener that comes for free with an already powerful module.
CCP obviously chose the precision and profile levels of each suit in order to establish a type of interplay between the suits when it comes to ewar. If you do not get that free complex damp, the interplay appears well thought out and balanced. With the free complex dampener from the cloak, there is no longer any type of interplay, damp + cloak >>>>> anything (ewar wise).
It's always been that way, you either are able to scan someone or you can't. Just how useless do you want cloaks to be? Let's say you require a second dampener so that only a scout with two complex dampeners and a cloak can be ALMOST completely invisible (scanning wise) to everything but the caldari scout (and gal logi maybe?). This would be ridiculous to require someone to invest into the scout suit, cloak, proto dampening, and sacrifice two modules for dampening just so that their entire fitting/tactic is not nullified by passive scans. On top of all of this, the cloak is not permanent. Using range amplifiers make it easier to spot scouts who need to pause for a second to recharge their cloak before going in the for attack.
I don't see how I'm making a false statement but whatever. Everyone had the opportunity to re-evaluate their decisions and choose a suit knowing what was coming in 1.8. If you want to see scouts, get a scout suit or prepare to have to sacrifice your fitting to try. That's what everyone had to decide when they chose their new suits. Among my choices was the caldari scout. Easy choice. Ewar is fine among scouts. If you want to participate in ewar then don't pick assault suits. Get a gallente logi. The scout suits are top tier for this role and mediums are the poor man's scout suit when it comes to ewar. It shouldn't be balanced between scouts and medium suits, that's what scouts are made for. This is why I referenced the heavy comparison. Certain suit types are just made for certain things. Ewar is scout territory just like support is logi territory and slaying/defense is assault/heavy territory. Competition between the suit types in categories like this shouldn't be balanced, there only needs to be balance within the each suit type. In the case of the scouts, it's fine. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
471
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 14:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:
1) so cloaks are useless without having a free non-stacking penalized complex module on them? Sure buddy.
2) No, there was never, fit two mods and never worry about a type of gameplay ever again. Nope.
3) You can either be invisible to scans and sacrifice, or you can be your mini assault, not both. Or at least that is what balance dictates. LEt me rephrase your ****** moment there that is underlined:
This would be ridiculous to require someone to invest into the scout suit, precision, and sacrifice four modules for enhancement just so that their entire fitting/tactic is not nullified by two... maybe three modules.
Look, there is no balance allowing cloaks to be 2 different forms of ewar.
You obviously didn't decide to spend the time looking at any of the graphs in this thread. If you had, you would see that a scanner is pretty much pointless. With one damp and one cloak, the gallente scout is unscannable. With one cloak and two dampeners, all other scouts are unscannable. This isn't balance.
Look, go read the graphs, come up with one thing that hasn't been said and disproven 400 times already in this thread, and then come back. It is consensus, the free non-stacking-penalized complex dampener that cloaks have is not needed, and it actively harms a delicate balance that has existed for a year in the ewar department.
Haha this is funny.
1. I never said that. I asked how useless you want them to be, calling for a nerf. As it is, the cloak helps not being seen visually and "electronically". Take away the dampening and you're requiring two complex dampeners on top of the cloak to actually be invisible. Now if you can be passively scanned while cloaked, the cloak is useless. So I'm asking you: How worthless do you want it to be? Do you want to require the scout to run 1,2,3, or 4 complex dampeners before the cloak is not useless?
2. I'll just say it again, it's always been this way: You either can be seen or you can't. Haha that's what I said. Am I wrong? Is there some apparition mode where you can be "half seen"? Must've been in closed beta then because I've never seen it.
3. My suits all have about 300 ehp. I only used advanced suits (minus my proto minmatar super-hack suit) and on each one I run 2 precision enhancers and 2 dampeners/range amplifiers/codebreakers depending on the suit. The extra module is hp whether it be a shield extender or an armor plate. I'm not advocating for assault suits. People that stack armor are gimping themselves enough with scan range/dampening because you can't be cloaked all of the time so it doesn't make it god mode to other scouts. All it takes is them to be within about 50 meters of me and uncloaked for a few seconds and I can see them coming.
All in all I think that dampening should beat out precision because you can't share dampening but passively scanning a scout will share it with your squad. To be the invisible scout you need to separate from the rest of the team who aren't also being completely invisible like you. If a blueberry runs next to you then you're as good as scanned. If it were completely balanced between the modules then it would take a couple caldari scouts to find everyone in the map and the wear battle will be won. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
471
|
Posted - 2014.04.13 22:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:
1) so cloaks are useless without having a free non-stacking penalized complex module on them? Sure buddy.
2) No, there was never, fit two mods and never worry about a type of gameplay ever again. Nope.
3) You can either be invisible to scans and sacrifice, or you can be your mini assault, not both. Or at least that is what balance dictates. LEt me rephrase your ****** moment there that is underlined:
This would be ridiculous to require someone to invest into the scout suit, precision, and sacrifice four modules for enhancement just so that their entire fitting/tactic is not nullified by two... maybe three modules.
Look, there is no balance allowing cloaks to be 2 different forms of ewar.
You obviously didn't decide to spend the time looking at any of the graphs in this thread. If you had, you would see that a scanner is pretty much pointless. With one damp and one cloak, the gallente scout is unscannable. With one cloak and two dampeners, all other scouts are unscannable. This isn't balance.
Look, go read the graphs, come up with one thing that hasn't been said and disproven 400 times already in this thread, and then come back. It is consensus, the free non-stacking-penalized complex dampener that cloaks have is not needed, and it actively harms a delicate balance that has existed for a year in the ewar department.
Haha this is funny. 1. I never said that. I asked how useless you want them to be, calling for a nerf. As it is, the cloak helps not being seen visually and "electronically". Take away the dampening and you're requiring two complex dampeners on top of the cloak to actually be invisible. Now if you can be passively scanned while cloaked, the cloak is useless. So I'm asking you: How worthless do you want it to be? Do you want to require the scout to run 1,2,3, or 4 complex dampeners before the cloak is not useless? 2. I'll just say it again, it's always been this way: You either can be seen or you can't. Haha that's what I said. Am I wrong? Is there some apparition mode where you can be "half seen"? Must've been in closed beta then because I've never seen it. 3. My suits all have about 300 ehp. I only used advanced suits (minus my proto minmatar super-hack suit) and on each one I run 2 precision enhancers and 2 dampeners/range amplifiers/codebreakers depending on the suit. The extra module is hp whether it be a shield extender or an armor plate. I'm not advocating for assault suits. People that stack armor are gimping themselves enough with scan range/dampening because you can't be cloaked all of the time so it doesn't make it god mode to other scouts. All it takes is them to be within about 50 meters of me and uncloaked for a few seconds and I can see them coming. All in all I think that dampening should beat out precision because you can't share dampening but passively scanning a scout will share it with your squad. To be the invisible scout you need to separate from the rest of the team who aren't also being completely invisible like you. If a blueberry runs next to you then you're as good as scanned. If it were completely balanced between the modules then it would take a couple caldari scouts to find everyone in the map and the wear battle will be won. Wow so much wrong with what you wrote. 1) your contention is that a cloak would be useless unless it is also a free non-stackng-penalized complex dampener. You have repeated it twice now. 2) No, it hasn't always been fit 2 mods and beat 4, it has never been that way 3)Dampnening is by default stronger than Scanning. IF you had bothered to read the thread, you would have seen that there is an interplay between scanning and dampening. Given equal modules (and thus sacrifice) dampening always wins, but the idea is that you should have to sacrifice. If another suit has sacrificed to increase it's scanning ability, then you should have to sacrifice in order to beat it. If they sacrifice 4 slots and the ability of the suit to do pretty much anything else to scan you, you should have to do the same. If you had looked at the charts, you would see that dampening makes it so that you do not have to make this sacrifice when trying to hide, and that is because the cloak gives you a free non-stacking-penalized complex dampening module. Everything you have wrote so far has been covered, explain, disproven and laughed out of discussion. Just because you rephrease the statement "but I should be able to do more than just try to be invisible" doesn't make it any more true. TLDR: IF another scout suit sacrifices 4 module slots to see you, you should have to sacrifice 4 module slots to stay hidden. The cloak completely messes this up.
Just a bunch of no. Not going to bother responding to your posts if you don't understand what I'm saying. The last word I'll have in this thread will be in the form of a suggestion: try not to think of cloaks as an extension of passive dropsuit skills because it's not, it's an active piece of equipment. Good day
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