What i'm getting at, it a scout stacking damps doesn't have the HP to survive against a bricked scout, or any heavy worth his salt.

While a cloaked damp scout is definitely a threat, it's not uncounterable.

1) Passive scans are not shared between squad members.

2) in order to defeat almost all dampeners for suits, the caldari scout will have to fit 3 precision enhancers, meaning it dies to a stern stare. The gallente scout will always be able to be invisible to the caldari scout, and with two precision enhancers willpretty much always be able to see the caldari scout.

3) The point of the bonus is so that caldari scouts can be scout hunters. 3 PEs caldari can see a 3 dampner minmatar scout, but only the scout will be able to see them. Sure you could have the scout on comms shouting out positions, good luck with that. Also, 1 gallente scout properly fit = death to all caldari scouts fit for purely scanning.

4) In your scenerio, the caldari scout has at most 300 HP, and dies instantly to nearly everything. It does not share vision with anyone, and is completely blind to a gallente scout.

I think your apprehension is based upon shared passive vision. Only the results of active scanners are shared by the squad.

Why would I look at your chart when I can see plain as day that you have an Amarr Head?
PS: My CalScout super vision is shared with my squad. Does that play a part in your chart?

Scout gk.0

2x Comp Precision Enh

1x Comp Damp
2x Comp Range
whatever in 4th '-' slot(3rd Comp range or 2nd Comp damp(total invis))

whatever in L slot
whatever in S slot

Cloak
whatever in Eq 2 slot

You could always just level up eyesight.

Once you get it to level 3 you can start skilling situational awareness too.

As for your first paragraph, did you see the graph I posted early after someone requested it? Here it is again.

This shows that without fitting for ewar in the least, just by fitting a peice of equipment meant to visually conceal you, you also get to counter-act all but the prototype advanced active scanners. Also I am unsure of what exactly you are trying to state there in the first paragraph.

The cloak is meant to conceal you visually.

The active/passive scanners and dampeners are meant to conceal you electronically.

I mean you could argue that the active scanner should change it's role to counter-act cloaked suits, but that would be a different thread I think.

I am purely concerned with the electronic scanning/concealment interplay in this thread, and how the cloak has completely screwed it up.

In that aspect the CalScout is pretty worthless, for that I'd rollout



1 - Gal Scout will see any uncloaked non-gal scout that isn't heavily damped. For the Cal scout to avoid this dragnet it has to fit 2x comp damps and sacrifice it's range and still can't see the Gal Scout unless fitted with 3+ enhancers.

The the squad with the ewar focused gal scout will always outmaneuver one with an ewar focused Cal scout it simply is no contest.

Moving Range Amps would solve this and reduce the problem of the low number of High slot mods but the community probably wouldn't have it.

+1

Buff precision enhancers!

What is on display, and what I take issue with, is that by fitting one module in addition to the cloak, a scout becomes unscannable to all but one suit. That is not tactical, there is no interplay between precision enhancement and dampening. It becomes an analog function, either you are sometimes seen or never seen, that is it. This is not balance.

no you are making a false statement. I am not arguing that other suits should have an easy time seeing scouts, I am arguing that ewar as it is is completely messed up thanks to the non-stacking-penalized complex dampener that comes for free with an already powerful module.

CCP obviously chose the precision and profile levels of each suit in order to establish a type of interplay between the suits when it comes to ewar. If you do not get that free complex damp, the interplay appears well thought out and balanced. With the free complex dampener from the cloak, there is no longer any type of interplay, damp + cloak >>>>> anything (ewar wise).

Yes PE will bring your precision down by 20%% per module and PD will bring theirs down 25% per module(excluding stacking penalties). With 2 Range amps a Cal Scout can see pretty much anything within a 76m radius, and so can his squad mates (Squad sharing passive scans works).

I'm not saying your wrong about the imbalance (your not, spot on). But the alternative (in the current system) would entail taking away the (temporary)PD Buff or buffing Precision Enhancers would simply mean that we would have a situation where we see even more CalScouts than we do today and Profile Dampening would be useless to consider.

Without the current imbalance you have pointed out, the CalScout would be over powered and have the ability to negate what little Ewar exists in the game as of now.

It's always been that way, you either are able to scan someone or you can't. Just how useless do you want cloaks to be? Let's say you require a second dampener so that only a scout with two complex dampeners and a cloak can be ALMOST completely invisible (scanning wise) to everything but the caldari scout (and gal logi maybe?). This would be ridiculous to require someone to invest into the scout suit, cloak, proto dampening, and sacrifice two modules for dampening just so that their entire fitting/tactic is not nullified by passive scans. On top of all of this, the cloak is not permanent. Using range amplifiers make it easier to spot scouts who need to pause for a second to recharge their cloak before going in the for attack.

I don't see how I'm making a false statement but whatever. Everyone had the opportunity to re-evaluate their decisions and choose a suit knowing what was coming in 1.8. If you want to see scouts, get a scout suit or prepare to have to sacrifice your fitting to try. That's what everyone had to decide when they chose their new suits. Among my choices was the caldari scout. Easy choice. Ewar is fine among scouts. If you want to participate in ewar then don't pick assault suits. Get a gallente logi. The scout suits are top tier for this role and mediums are the poor man's scout suit when it comes to ewar. It shouldn't be balanced between scouts and medium suits, that's what scouts are made for. This is why I referenced the heavy comparison. Certain suit types are just made for certain things. Ewar is scout territory just like support is logi territory and slaying/defense is assault/heavy territory. Competition between the suit types in categories like this shouldn't be balanced, there only needs to be balance within the each suit type. In the case of the scouts, it's fine.

That's the point, a damped scout should be un scannable.

OP,

In your opinion, if cloaks, damps, and enhancers were balanced, how much should three complex precision enhancers pay off for a logi with level 5 precision skills like me? Clearly, I give up a lot of shielding for this setup but a significant portion of the scout community currently evades my radar. Where would you like to see someone like me fall on the spectrum?

1) so cloaks are useless without having a free non-stacking penalized complex module on them? Sure buddy.

2) No, there was never, fit two mods and never worry about a type of gameplay ever again. Nope.

3) You can either be invisible to scans and sacrifice, or you can be your mini assault, not both. Or at least that is what balance dictates. LEt me rephrase your ****** moment there that is underlined:

This would be ridiculous to require someone to invest into the scout suit, precision, and sacrifice four modules for enhancement just so that their entire fitting/tactic is not nullified by two... maybe three modules.

Look, there is no balance allowing cloaks to be 2 different forms of ewar.

You obviously didn't decide to spend the time looking at any of the graphs in this thread. If you had, you would see that a scanner is pretty much pointless. With one damp and one cloak, the gallente scout is unscannable. With one cloak and two dampeners, all other scouts are unscannable. This isn't balance.

Look, go read the graphs, come up with one thing that hasn't been said and disproven 400 times already in this thread, and then come back. It is consensus, the free non-stacking-penalized complex dampener that cloaks have is not needed, and it actively harms a delicate balance that has existed for a year in the ewar department.

Haha this is funny.

1. I never said that. I asked how useless you want them to be, calling for a nerf. As it is, the cloak helps not being seen visually and "electronically". Take away the dampening and you're requiring two complex dampeners on top of the cloak to actually be invisible. Now if you can be passively scanned while cloaked, the cloak is useless. So I'm asking you: How worthless do you want it to be? Do you want to require the scout to run 1,2,3, or 4 complex dampeners before the cloak is not useless?

2. I'll just say it again, it's always been this way: You either can be seen or you can't. Haha that's what I said. Am I wrong? Is there some apparition mode where you can be "half seen"? Must've been in closed beta then because I've never seen it.

3. My suits all have about 300 ehp. I only used advanced suits (minus my proto minmatar super-hack suit) and on each one I run 2 precision enhancers and 2 dampeners/range amplifiers/codebreakers depending on the suit. The extra module is hp whether it be a shield extender or an armor plate. I'm not advocating for assault suits. People that stack armor are gimping themselves enough with scan range/dampening because you can't be cloaked all of the time so it doesn't make it god mode to other scouts. All it takes is them to be within about 50 meters of me and uncloaked for a few seconds and I can see them coming.

All in all I think that dampening should beat out precision because you can't share dampening but passively scanning a scout will share it with your squad. To be the invisible scout you need to separate from the rest of the team who aren't also being completely invisible like you. If a blueberry runs next to you then you're as good as scanned. If it were completely balanced between the modules then it would take a couple caldari scouts to find everyone in the map and the wear battle will be won.

Wow so much wrong with what you wrote.

1) your contention is that a cloak would be useless unless it is also a free non-stackng-penalized complex dampener. You have repeated it twice now.

2) No, it hasn't always been fit 2 mods and beat 4, it has never been that way

3)Dampnening is by default stronger than Scanning.

IF you had bothered to read the thread, you would have seen that there is an interplay between scanning and dampening. Given equal modules (and thus sacrifice) dampening always wins, but the idea is that you should have to sacrifice. If another suit has sacrificed to increase it's scanning ability, then you should have to sacrifice in order to beat it. If they sacrifice 4 slots and the ability of the suit to do pretty much anything else to scan you, you should have to do the same.

If you had looked at the charts, you would see that dampening makes it so that you do not have to make this sacrifice when trying to hide, and that is because the cloak gives you a free non-stacking-penalized complex dampening module.

Everything you have wrote so far has been covered, explain, disproven and laughed out of discussion. Just because you rephrease the statement "but I should be able to do more than just try to be invisible" doesn't make it any more true.

TLDR: IF another scout suit sacrifices 4 module slots to see you, you should have to sacrifice 4 module slots to stay hidden. The cloak completely messes this up.

Your Logi is a med suit so it should be concerned about scanning other meds not scouts.

This might be of general interest: Scanning equipment and suits (incl cloaks)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11ouz89DQ0j4dK8K0yUVEDSAysZvELwS9YNN-wBUUO-U/edit?usp=sharing

I can't say "yes" to this, but I can't say "No" either. -Crosses my arms.- My question is, why the hell didn't they use a random number generator for this precision enhancing stuff? Like say, for example; This person has this much precision, and that person has that much dampening. No matter the scale, there would ALWAYS be a small chance to pick that person up on the radar. I just find it a helluva lot easier than using any set factor, because it's precision, and dampening. The Scanner notifies you of an error, and if your precision isn't high enough, then it doesn't even warn you of that error, because it thinks there isn't one. Also, if they use a random number generator, then majority of the issues with cloak dampening would be solved, as no one would complain, rather...they'd pat themselves on the back for having the surprisingly good luck to pick one up and thwart that scouts hunting indefinitely if he attempts during that time.

I just think a lot more people would be satisfied with this issue if they had a CHANCE, no matter how small it is, instead of a fixed number. And no, it's not COMPLETELY random, out of a hundred, the generator takes the factors, makes a percentage for a "yes" and "no" sides. Then it rolls a number by random, and depending on where the number lands, it determines that "yes," or "no," result. For example: The "Yes" is 50%, and the "No" is 50%. The generator has a set limit of 100, if the number lands below 50, then the attempt is a success. If the number lands above 50, then the attempt is a failure.

The fixed nature of it allows you to prepare your modules accordingly. However, the problem lies in the fact that scouts are too OP in terms of scan profile, which makes them almost impossible to combat with even three complex precision enhancers.

This is a rough idea of what I'd like to see in EWAR:

Scout vs. Scout

In terms of enhancers and dampeners, a one module advantage (ex. 2 complex enhancers vs. 1 complex dampener) should always result in radar supremacy. No exceptions.

When the number of modules is even (ex. 1 complex enhancer vs. 1 complex dampener) the following rules should apply:

Gal scout damp > Cal scout pre.en.

Cal scout pre.en. > Min and Amarr scout damp

Scout vs. Medium

In terms of enhancers and dampeners, a medium frame with a two module advantage over a scout (ex. 3 complex enhancers vs. 1 complex dampener) should always obtain radar supremacy. No exceptions.

You are right, my apprehension is completely based on the assumption that passive squad vision was shared, which I thought it was ( I thought we had confirmed this, but I could be wrong.)