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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
515
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Posted - 2014.04.15 02:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
Magnus you almost touched on a missing point here. I agree with you on the cloak with the dampener being a problem, but remember it is an active module, that had its active counter nerfed hard prior to its release. The active scanner should be a hard counter to the cloak, but the whole thing was implemented wrong in my opinion. The active scanner is all but useless in the hands of anything other than a gal Logi, and with it's duration and cooldown times, even in the hands of a gal Logi make it laughable.
The unit should work the same way as the cloak to be an effective counter, similar to the vehicle scanner in that it is scanning as long as it is out in a radius, but with no duration when out of range and only scanning while it's out. As soon as the wielder switches weapons, equipment, grenade, it shuts down. If the wielder is killed, scans are gone. It should have the same activation and cool down mechanic as the cloak, and skills, precision mods should improve its effectiveness. This way you have a piece of equipment that is usable by everyone, but only people with dedicated skills and modules can use it effectively.
It should be expensive to fit to discourage over use, maybe even give a fitting bonus to all the logistic class similar to scouts cloak fitting bonus.
This opinion is coming from someone who has Gal Logi lvl 5 and used scanners this build extensively, Gal Scout lvl 5 and used cloak damp quite a bit, and Cal Scout lvl 4 running with 2 complex precision amps. All my ewar skills are level 5. From my play, Cal's passive are OP to everyone but dedicated dampened and a Gal scouts, and Gal Scout is just straight up OP. Gal Logi is not worth the price you pay to be an effective scout counter with current scan mechanics.
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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
519
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Posted - 2014.04.15 10:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Yan Darn wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:ratamaq doc wrote:I agree with you on the cloak with the dampener being a problem, but remember it is an active module, that had its active counter nerfed hard prior to its release. The active scanner should be a hard counter to the cloak, but the whole thing was implemented wrong in my opinion. The active scanner is all but useless in the hands of anything other than a gal Logi, and with it's duration and cooldown times, even in the hands of a gal Logi make it laughable. And this, while including just enough truth to sound logical, is laughable in its stupidity. A fully deceked out stealth build SHOULD be capable of hiding from EVERYTHING - EVEN a fully decked out scanning build. But it's ONLY a fully decked out stealth build that should do this. Active Scanners - or good passive scanning - shouldn't be a HARD counter to ALL cloakers, but should be a RELIABLE counter against MOST cloakers. ^ It's make no sense to say that the best scanner should ultimately beat out the best stealther - because, and I know this has been said in various contexts now, but seriously - the guy with a scanner still has eyes in their favour, in fact everybody has the innate potential to see even a cloaked scout. I don't think, in the context of improved scanning especially, we should be QQing all the way to saying that not even the stealth specialising scout can evade all scans if they sacrifice low slots to do it... The truth is, the overall mechanics of Ewar in DUST is just so badly implemented - Ewar based around a more analogue system of detection would make things a bit fairer and easier to balance IMO. I am not saying that. I have been saying repeatedly that WITHOUT the free non-stacking-penalized complex dampening module on the cloak, it is completely possible to become completely invisible, the difference being that without the attribute on a cloak, it isn't ridiculously easy.
You 2 (not Magnus) missed my point also. I'm not saying That the cloak should be beatable if fully dampened, right now it's too easily defeated. The best possible dampened and cloaked scout while cloaked should be able to beat the best possible precision enhanced scanner. This is the case now, but the only scanner that can beat most skilled partially dampened cloaked scouts now is an overly expensive, narrow beamed, short duration LONG cool down scanner, and it has to be used by a single suit class at lvl 5. You have to be lucky to hit a scout with that thing. To keep with the prior spirit of dampeners beat enhancers, 2 enhancers beat 1 dampener, 2 enhancers plus scanner beat 1 dampener plus cloak.
I also think this is a pipe dream, so I agree that the simplest solution would be to remove the dampening bonus, I'm just worried that this leave the Cal Scout as king of sight hands down. In my experience, that vision is shared and is worse than an active scanner because it's always on and gives no warning to the scanned.
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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
522
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Posted - 2014.04.15 14:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:
I wasn't able to get that scanning sharing to show-up in-game, but I suggest everyone who does to submit a bug report/ticket in order to get that fixed. I mean it is plain as day CCP didn't intend to share that, and there is no way in hell it should be shared.
There are a few members other than myself that PVR. I'll try to get a proof video together. Someone in the thread said that a range amp is required, I will try to test both. But I do know that in PC, we were deploying a Cal Scout to sit in the center of the city to light up everything. In non scientific game play testing, it seemed to work for us. Running as a Cal Scout and asking squad members if they could see enemy cloak scouts on their mini, the results seemed positive, but again this was not science.
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ratamaq doc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
522
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 14:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
NAV HIV wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:
I wasn't able to get that scanning sharing to show-up in-game, but I suggest everyone who does to submit a bug report/ticket in order to get that fixed. I mean it is plain as day CCP didn't intend to share that, and there is no way in hell it should be shared.
Shared Squad Sight encourages Squad Diversity. It addresses the concerns you've laid out about profile and precision. Why shouldn't it exist? 1) CCP specifically took it out of the game when they fixed active scanners 2) They have said nothing about re-instating it 3) It is too powerful, it is like the active scanners of pre-1.8 except always on and with no warning, no cooldown, no activation, no scaning arc, no weapon-switching. Honestly if you can't see that this is game-breaking... well I .... I have no clue what to say... Oh and this is a PRETTY MAJOR change that goes directly against what CCP themselves have ACTIVELY done. 1) Irrelevant 2) Irrelevant 3) Good Point So about that Scout, who is "Scouting" for his squad, cloaked and surrounded by hostiles ... * He's likely Caldari running Precision in his Highs and Extenders in his Lows. * He weighs in at ~300 HP. * He strictly hunts stragglers; should he move to close to the herd, he'll be spotted and insta-gibbed. * He cannot see the dampened GalScouts, who no doubt lurk about. * An enemy CalScout in the area will absolutely detect him, which he cannot counter. * An enemy GalLogi in the area might detect him, which he cannot counter. * Once detected, he's toast. Unless he's good at E&E. Lots of variables; lots of risk. Quite different from a 1000HP Slayer Logi w/Proto Scanner, lighting up a 100m radius around his squad of 1000HP Slayer Logis (zero variables; zero risk). Well Said * He also cost around 150-185k * Has about 250 EHP * Gal Logi = Dead cal scout * Another Cal Scout = Dead cal scout * Not used for charging a hoard * Used for hunting low level and brick tanked scouts * Used for flanking the enemy * Used for helping the Sqaud, Especially through comms * Better than anyone with a scanner, Jumping and doing a 360 scan and having "You have been scanned" for majority of the time on your screen... * Now that scanning involves a bit mote dedication and skills, all of a sudden everyone is complaining about scans ?!
While the Cal Scout is the Bain of other scouts, in this you should keep in mind the Gal Scout also if shared squad vision is enabled. A Cal Scout sacrificing his highs for precision does leave him pretty gimped, but the Gal scout gets the same bonus to range, has two highs it can equip PEs to bring it's precision down to 24.9 DB (not detecting full skilled cloaked scouts, but EVERYTHING else) and has an abundance of lows (3 at standard and ADV, 4 at proto) to still tank, damp, amp, and gets the 3hp/s armor rep bonus naturally so no need to use one of the lows for a repper. I love my Cal Scout for hunting other scouts, but my ADV Gal Scout build runs 2 complex PEs, 1 complex Dampener, 1 complex amp, a cloak to drop me below what even a Cal Scout with 3 complex PEs can detect, and one plate, so it's sitting well about that flimsy <300 ehp, invisible, and see almost everything for the same distance, and has more distance potential as the Cal Scout.
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