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Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5229	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:11:00 - [1] - Quote Most notably because all rifles will have a reduction in damage to accomodate a longer TTK but the HMG will not. IMO, it's already in a pretty good place and it's only intended counters in the CQC environment are the AR and the SG, both of which are getting some pretty hefty nerfs come 1.8 Fairly worried that the HMG will completely replace other CQC options as the new heavies gain in popularity and the subsequent nerfs occur. I kinda feel as though rifles were singled out in the TTK area in this aspect, some were obviously over-powering but there were others that were already falling short here in 1.7 (breach, burst and tactical AR, for instance). I can't be the only one with this concern. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 4677	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:17:00 - [2] - Quote Yeah, the HMG should be nerfed 5%, damage wise. Taco Cat backwards is still Taco Cat
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 755	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:19:00 - [3] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Most notably because all rifles will have a reduction in damage to accomodate a longer TTK but the HMG will not. IMO, it's already in a pretty good place and it's only intended counters in the CQC environment are the AR and the SG, both of which are getting some pretty hefty nerfs come 1.8 Fairly worried that the HMG will completely replace other CQC options as the new heavies gain in popularity and the subsequent nerfs occur. I kinda feel as though rifles were singled out in the TTK area in this aspect, some were obviously over-powering but there were others that were already falling short here in 1.7 (breach, burst and tactical AR, for instance). I can't be the only one with this concern. Nope you are not...
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 11267	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:19:00 - [4] - Quote I predict Heavy514 with a some scouts hiding under every other rock for 1.8. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 214	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:20:00 - [5] - Quote If you look into the barrels of an HMG, you're supposed to die... It will finally be as it's supposed. If you want to get that heavie on the node, engage from a distance if possible, and for those CQC situations, grenades will still help, you just need some hives. Massdrivers will see a comeback for those situations. But mostly, CQC is heavy and sneaky scout territory. But there are enough places on the maps where mediums will still be the suits to use.
Beck Weathers Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 823	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:22:00 - [6] - Quote My eyes will light up whenever i see a minmatar heavy and mow him down with his pathetic resists and hp These forums must be located in the Californin country side, there is whine as far as the eye can see.
Chibi Andy Forsaken Immortals Top Men. 1055	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:24:00 - [7] - Quote well considering before the 10% dmg buff to the HMG, the HMG was just a giant BB gun that tickles the enemies armor. so technically the HMG is fine where it is now. unless of course everyone just wants a broken HMG so they can kill the heavies more easier. then you'll just see a surge of RR/CR/SCR heavies once the HMG is dead. YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED!!! sç+a¦át¢èa¦á)sç+ (pâÄa¦át¢èa¦á)pâÄs+íGö+GöüGö+
TERMINALANCE Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 274	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:25:00 - [8] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Most notably because all rifles will have a reduction in damage to accomodate a longer TTK but the HMG will not. IMO, it's already in a pretty good place and it's only intended counters in the CQC environment are the AR and the SG, both of which are getting some pretty hefty nerfs come 1.8 Fairly worried that the HMG will completely replace other CQC options as the new heavies gain in popularity and the subsequent nerfs occur. I kinda feel as though rifles were singled out in the TTK area in this aspect, some were obviously over-powering but there were others that were already falling short here in 1.7 (breach, burst and tactical AR, for instance). I can't be the only one with this concern. AR is not a counter for the hmg that would be ******, HMG is supposed to counter medium suits at close range. shotgun on a fast suit is a great counter for a heavy. the idea that you are supposed to counter a heavy by going toe to toe is ******, I cant take a heavy suit and go toe to toe face to face with a veh now can i? ARs are supposed to be meant at countering other light weapons in its optimum range as well as having a much larger jack of all trades use. really they should keep the ar dmg where it is and up its effective ranges by about 25%
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 11267	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:26:00 - [9] - Quote Beck Weathers wrote: My eyes will light up whenever i see a minmatar heavy and mow him down with his pathetic resists and hp Considering a minimally tanked one will have 1200 EHP, you have fun with that. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5231	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:26:00 - [10] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: If you look into the barrels of an HMG, you're supposed to die... It will finally be as it's supposed. If you want to get that heavie on the node, engage from a distance if possible, and for those CQC situations, grenades will still help, you just need some hives. Massdrivers will see a comeback for those situations. But mostly, CQC is heavy and sneaky scout territory. But there are enough places on the maps where mediums will still be the suits to use. And the Gallente Assault with the Assault Rifle is where.. in that equation..? Chibi Andy wrote: well considering before the 10% dmg buff to the HMG, the HMG was just a giant BB gun that tickles the enemies armor. so technically the HMG is fine where it is now. unless of course everyone just wants a broken HMG so they can kill the heavies more easier. then you'll just see a surge of RR/CR/SCR heavies once the HMG is dead. Right, it's fine where it is -now- but what about in 1.8..? Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182

Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5235	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:31:00 - [11] - Quote TERMINALANCE wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Most notably because all rifles will have a reduction in damage to accomodate a longer TTK but the HMG will not. IMO, it's already in a pretty good place and it's only intended counters in the CQC environment are the AR and the SG, both of which are getting some pretty hefty nerfs come 1.8 Fairly worried that the HMG will completely replace other CQC options as the new heavies gain in popularity and the subsequent nerfs occur. I kinda feel as though rifles were singled out in the TTK area in this aspect, some were obviously over-powering but there were others that were already falling short here in 1.7 (breach, burst and tactical AR, for instance). I can't be the only one with this concern. AR is not a counter for the hmg that would be ******, HMG is supposed to counter medium suits at close range. shotgun on a fast suit is a great counter for a heavy. the idea that you are supposed to counter a heavy by going toe to toe is ******, I cant take a heavy suit and go toe to toe face to face with a veh now can i? ARs are supposed to be meant at countering other light weapons in its optimum range as well as having a much larger jack of all trades use. really they should keep the ar dmg where it is and up its effective ranges by about 25% AR isn't a counter for anything in 1.8. Apparently you'd be high to even consider using it when the other rifles out-DPS, out-range and in the case of the ACR, have less fitting costs than the AR. So using the argument that the AR is supposed to counter those is obviously flawed because it doesn't. It has trouble doing that in 1.7 - it's a toss up as to whether or not I'm going to win against any of the other rifles in my own optimal range. If ANY of the rifles should be good for taking out a sentinel with an HMG in CQC, by all rights it -should- be the AR because you're within the same optimal range; I don't like this viewpoint that a Heavy should always 100% win in CQC, hands-down. Maneuverability should trump the Sentinel but since we did away with turn speed caps they can turn just as fast as a Scout, so saying that a Scout with a Shotgun should be their counter is flawed as well, especially since it only has 4m optimal range, 20m max AND it's getting nerfed in 1.8 The thinking that "this should be the best because" is what got Tanks are powerful as they are. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 214	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:36:00 - [12] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: If you look into the barrels of an HMG, you're supposed to die... It will finally be as it's supposed. If you want to get that heavie on the node, engage from a distance if possible, and for those CQC situations, grenades will still help, you just need some hives. Massdrivers will see a comeback for those situations. But mostly, CQC is heavy and sneaky scout territory. But there are enough places on the maps where mediums will still be the suits to use. And the Gallente Assault with the Assault Rifle is where.. in that equation..? The Gallente assault is supposed to die as well, if it looks into an HMG wielded by a Gallente heavy. Medium frames are not the masterrace, that can anihilate everything else on the battlefield. The Gallente assault should be the frame that moves betwheen nodes in city maps to reinforce others. The suit for digging in is the heavy. Assault should be the conquerors, moving fast in packs to overwhelm enemy forces by sheer numbers. As is in real life, standard infantry is the expendeble cannonfodder. Infantry in all wars has been shoved into meatgrinders all over the world. BTW, I think Assault suits should be cheaper than all other suits, by at least 20%.
Chibi Andy Forsaken Immortals Top Men. 1056	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:36:00 - [13] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: If you look into the barrels of an HMG, you're supposed to die... It will finally be as it's supposed. If you want to get that heavie on the node, engage from a distance if possible, and for those CQC situations, grenades will still help, you just need some hives. Massdrivers will see a comeback for those situations. But mostly, CQC is heavy and sneaky scout territory. But there are enough places on the maps where mediums will still be the suits to use. And the Gallente Assault with the Assault Rifle is where.. in that equation..? Chibi Andy wrote: well considering before the 10% dmg buff to the HMG, the HMG was just a giant BB gun that tickles the enemies armor. so technically the HMG is fine where it is now. unless of course everyone just wants a broken HMG so they can kill the heavies more easier. then you'll just see a surge of RR/CR/SCR heavies once the HMG is dead. Right, it's fine where it is -now- but what about in 1.8..? well in 1.8 we'll be having a tonne of heavies and a lot of armor (assuming majority picks GAL heavy), so unless you want the heavies to dance with one another trying to kill each other with a broken HMG that TTK will be a very long one if i remember correctly before the DMG buff to the HMG the proto was doing like 17dmg and that still takes a while to kill a medium frame and even more on a amarr heavy frame YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED!!! sç+a¦át¢èa¦á)sç+ (pâÄa¦át¢èa¦á)pâÄs+íGö+GöüGö+
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 11275	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:39:00 - [14] - Quote Chibi Andy wrote: if i remember correctly before the DMG buff to the HMG the proto was doing like 17dmg and that still takes a while to kill a medium frame and even more on a amarr heavy frame 17 damage... At 2000 RPM. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
noob cavman Expert Intervention Caldari State 796	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:40:00 - [15] - Quote I hear that my shotgun is the counter to heavies. But if the prof skill is being changed to shield damage and not keeping the rof bonus. I see alot of death on my horizon from not being able to get that 4 shot off... I want to be a caveman! Ccp: DENIED YOU DRUNK British ninja cowboy scout, logi, heavy
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 216	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:43:00 - [16] - Quote noob cavman wrote: I hear that my shotgun is the counter to heavies. But if the prof skill is being changed to shield damage and not keeping the rof bonus. I see alot of death on my horizon from not being able to get that 4 shot off... If the shotgun isn't good enough to give a sneaky scout the chance to kill that heavy, it needs to be buffed. Sneaky scouts should be able to take down a heavy, but only if undetected... and it still needs to be close (strafing involved and every shot connects).
Hynox Xitio Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 513	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:44:00 - [17] - Quote It will probably be nerfed and then be buffed in a few decades. Unleash the Fogwoggler
Tech Ohm Eaven L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1410	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:45:00 - [18] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Most notably because all rifles will have a reduction in damage to accomodate a longer TTK but the HMG will not. IMO, it's already in a pretty good place and it's only intended counters in the CQC environment are the AR and the SG, both of which are getting some pretty hefty nerfs come 1.8 Fairly worried that the HMG will completely replace other CQC options as the new heavies gain in popularity and the subsequent nerfs occur. I kinda feel as though rifles were singled out in the TTK area in this aspect, some were obviously over-powering but there were others that were already falling short here in 1.7 (breach, burst and tactical AR, for instance). I can't be the only one with this concern. no. scout suit , cloak . proto re on heavy +50 proto knifes on heavy +50 flux ,massdriver magsec to heavy back +50 Hey CCP get a PS4 client Planetside 2 in June on PS4 Dust Deserters Alliance
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3481	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:47:00 - [19] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Chibi Andy wrote: if i remember correctly before the DMG buff to the HMG the proto was doing like 17dmg and that still takes a while to kill a medium frame and even more on a amarr heavy frame 17 damage... At 2000 RPM. WE NEED MOAR DAKKA Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. I've got 3k likes, I'll double post if I want to dammit!
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 11275	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:48:00 - [20] - Quote Tech Ohm Eaven wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Most notably because all rifles will have a reduction in damage to accomodate a longer TTK but the HMG will not. IMO, it's already in a pretty good place and it's only intended counters in the CQC environment are the AR and the SG, both of which are getting some pretty hefty nerfs come 1.8 Fairly worried that the HMG will completely replace other CQC options as the new heavies gain in popularity and the subsequent nerfs occur. I kinda feel as though rifles were singled out in the TTK area in this aspect, some were obviously over-powering but there were others that were already falling short here in 1.7 (breach, burst and tactical AR, for instance). I can't be the only one with this concern. no. scout suit , cloak . proto re on heavy +50 proto knifes on heavy +50 flux ,massdriver magsec to heavy back +50 Heavies can tank REs. Sometimes three, in edge cases. Proto knives are survivable for up to four strikes even if you charge initially. Flux will assist, but the only heavy it'll be really effective against will be the Minmatar one. And they all have a 25% blast resistance, so the mass driver is out the window. All heavies can tank a full magsec clip. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.

xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 1892	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:48:00 - [21] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I predict Heavy514 with a some scouts hiding under every other rock for 1.8. Many people originally left Dust in Uprising 1.0 because it was "slow". Slow movement, slow gameplay, "s"low framerate, "slow" ttk. With heavies (wich are notably slow) and cloaked scouts "waiting" for enemies, gameplay would be even slower than that, much slower for what we're used to. Will it be boring? In my opinion, maybe. >Bastard I : "Cce me ne... futt! XD"
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 9973	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:48:00 - [22] - Quote +1 Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Chibi Andy Forsaken Immortals Top Men. 1059	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:48:00 - [23] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Chibi Andy wrote: if i remember correctly before the DMG buff to the HMG the proto was doing like 17dmg and that still takes a while to kill a medium frame and even more on a amarr heavy frame 17 damage... At 2000 RPM. yes that 17 dmg just tickles the enemies armor. 1 heavy vs 1 medium frame in CQC chances of the heavy losing is pretty high. just saying that by nerfing the HMG the heavy would pretty much lose its fighting ability in CQC, might as well all go with RR/CR/SCR in the end. then everyone will QQ that the heavies are OP with those weapons when the HMG has been nerfed. so nerfing the HMG you'll just push the heavies to use light weapons. YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED!!! sç+a¦át¢èa¦á)sç+ (pâÄa¦át¢èa¦á)pâÄs+íGö+GöüGö+
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 216	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:53:00 - [24] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Heavies can tank REs. Sometimes three, in edge cases. Proto knives are survivable for up to four strikes even if you charge initially. Flux will assist, but the only heavy it'll be really effective against will be the Minmatar one. And they all have a 25% blast resistance, so the mass driver is out the window. Some heavies can tank a full magsec clip. Direct hits with the MD still do full damage! So you need to aim, and not only spam the floor. In the end, the heavy will need teamwork to take down or a sneaky scout to prepare him...
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5241	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:53:00 - [25] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: If you look into the barrels of an HMG, you're supposed to die... It will finally be as it's supposed. If you want to get that heavie on the node, engage from a distance if possible, and for those CQC situations, grenades will still help, you just need some hives. Massdrivers will see a comeback for those situations. But mostly, CQC is heavy and sneaky scout territory. But there are enough places on the maps where mediums will still be the suits to use. And the Gallente Assault with the Assault Rifle is where.. in that equation..? The Gallente assault is supposed to die as well, if it looks into an HMG wielded by a Gallente heavy. Medium frames are not the masterrace, that can anihilate everything else on the battlefield. The Gallente assault should be the frame that moves betwheen nodes in city maps to reinforce others. The suit for digging in is the heavy. Assault should be the conquerors, moving fast in packs to overwhelm enemy forces by sheer numbers. As is in real life, standard infantry is the expendeble cannonfodder. Infantry in all wars has been shoved into meatgrinders all over the world. BTW, I think Assault suits should be cheaper than all other suits, by at least 20%. And what's to stop Heavies from moving in packs..? Mad Syringe wrote: noob cavman wrote: I hear that my shotgun is the counter to heavies. But if the prof skill is being changed to shield damage and not keeping the rof bonus. I see alot of death on my horizon from not being able to get that 4 shot off... If the shotgun isn't good enough to give a sneaky scout the chance to kill that heavy, it needs to be buffed. Sneaky scouts should be able to take down a heavy, but only if undetected... and it still needs to be close (strafing involved and every shot connects). Same as above. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5241	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:54:00 - [26] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Heavies can tank REs. Sometimes three, in edge cases. Proto knives are survivable for up to four strikes even if you charge initially. Flux will assist, but the only heavy it'll be really effective against will be the Minmatar one. And they all have a 25% blast resistance, so the mass driver is out the window. Some heavies can tank a full magsec clip. Direct hits with the MD still do full damage! So you need to aim, and not only spam the floor. In the end, the heavy will need teamwork to take down or a sneaky scout to prepare him... Oh god another "will need teamwork to take down" argument. Look, game is only 16v16 - this argument didn't work with Tanks and it sure as **** won't work with Heavies unless there's a limit to how many can be fielded and I know for a solid fact no-one wants that. If it takes more than one person to kill any one other person - there's an imbalance. It's the DEFINITION of imbalance. It needs counters. Not -counter-. Plural. Edit: And it should -NOT- under any circumstances be the exact same thing used to counter it. It's terrible game design to have to counter something with what you're countering. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 216	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:55:00 - [27] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: And what's to stop Heavies from moving in packs..? Well if they move in packs, they need to cross open ground, where the mediums can take advantage of their superior range...
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 11278	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:56:00 - [28] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Heavies can tank REs. Sometimes three, in edge cases. Proto knives are survivable for up to four strikes even if you charge initially. Flux will assist, but the only heavy it'll be really effective against will be the Minmatar one. And they all have a 25% blast resistance, so the mass driver is out the window. Some heavies can tank a full magsec clip. Direct hits with the MD still do full damage! So you need to aim, and not only spam the floor. In the end, the heavy will need teamwork to take down or a sneaky scout to prepare him... That's nice. It'll take you a full clip of direct hits to down a heavy, by the way. Out of curiosity, how do you propose dealing with heavies with teamwork when they get spammed? If a lone heavy needs teamwork to kill, then straight away heavies become the most efficient use of clones and of manpower. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1161	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:56:00 - [29] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I predict Heavy514 with a some scouts hiding under every other rock for 1.8. I'm thinkin.... minnie scout, AMD, nova knife, compact hive, cloak, flux grenades. Knife the heavy. If he turns around before you can finish him, he's already in his armor so one MD shot while retreating should do the job. Also, great for sneaking onto roofs to eliminate snipers and rain down destruction from high places. Think about it, a MD capable of hitting you and disappearing only to reappear 15 seconds later behind you! Or a MD on the roof raining hell and disappearing as soon as you go after him just to appear on another roof 30 seconds later! I WILL BE THE MD NINJA! MAG ~ Raven
noob cavman Expert Intervention Caldari State 798	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:57:00 - [30] - Quote The hmg is awesome right now. With in 20 meters against a good heavy face to face your very likely to be abused like a welsh sheep. The counters for heavies have always been range or ambush. With prof skill being likely changed in 1.8 for the shotgun im very worried about them just turning around with me struggling to get my shots off. My rhythm with the shotty is going to drastically changed back to pre rof bonus stats, that makes me feel a little uncomfortable and and wonder why ive put so much sp into it. I want to be a caveman! Ccp: DENIED YOU DRUNK British ninja cowboy scout, logi, heavy

CommanderBolt ACME SPECIAL FORCES RISE of LEGION 1058	Posted - 2014.03.17 19:58:00 - [31] - Quote The heavy and the HMG will still be fine in 1.8. The heavy is in a good place now and it certainly does not need further nerfs. However Aeon has a very good point about some of the weapons, specifically the AR and its lol-nerfed-to-the-ground variants. I'm not saying the AR`s should own heavies in CQC but they should still be great in CQC as Gallente blaster tech is meant to be the highest DPS lowest range. Then again I'm going from how it is in EVE, the Devs seem to pick and choose the bits they like to stick to cannon on. Investigate 9/11
xSivartx D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 33	Posted - 2014.03.17 20:02:00 - [32] - Quote I'll state this again. With the HMG prof being changed to only buff armor damage and damage mods being reduced, this will keep the HMG in line. However, I think the heavy suits and weapons need an ISK increase. Back in beta a full proto heavy would cost me near 400K That would surely deter spam of the suit.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3295	Posted - 2014.03.17 20:04:00 - [33] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Most notably because all rifles will have a reduction in damage to accomodate a longer TTK but the HMG will not. IMO, it's already in a pretty good place and it's only intended counters in the CQC environment are the AR and the SG, both of which are getting some pretty hefty nerfs come 1.8 Fairly worried that the HMG will completely replace other CQC options as the new heavies gain in popularity and the subsequent nerfs occur. I kinda feel as though rifles were singled out in the TTK area in this aspect, some were obviously over-powering but there were others that were already falling short here in 1.7 (breach, burst and tactical AR, for instance). I can't be the only one with this concern. In CQC the heavy needs to be absolutely undisputed. He moves slow and has no other application whatsoever. Not "in a good place". The absolute best and always winning. Other CQC options should be inferior to the heavy's, because they come with the benefit of increased mobility, the ability to cloak and set up kills, and better scan precision for situational awareness. The heavy is a gigantic flashing "Here I am, *******" beacon with a giant gun attached to it. He has to be absolutely dominant in direct combat. The heavy will be fine in 1.8, leave him alone.
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1163	Posted - 2014.03.17 20:11:00 - [34] - Quote xSivartx wrote: I'll state this again. With the HMG prof being changed to only buff armor damage and damage mods being reduced, this will keep the HMG in line. However, I think the heavy suits and weapons need an ISK increase. Back in beta a full proto heavy would cost me near 400K That would surely deter spam of the suit. I think all proto gear needs to be majorly bumped up in price, from the suits and weapons all the way down to the modules. Less people would run it in pub matches and those who do would loose much more. You'd have to refund all ISK items at current market value first though and make people rebuy items at the new prices to make it work, but it would make protosuits a "special occasion" suit again instead of the spam suit it is right now. It should cost 2-3 games worth of ISK so if you loose one you have to think long and hard about risking another one, like back in Chromosome.. MAG ~ Raven
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3297	Posted - 2014.03.17 20:12:00 - [35] - Quote xSivartx wrote: I'll state this again. With the HMG prof being changed to only buff armor damage and damage mods being reduced, this will keep the HMG in line. However, I think the heavy suits and weapons need an ISK increase. Back in beta a full proto heavy would cost me near 400K That would surely deter spam of the suit. Remove light weapons from heavies and logis. Problem solved. Now people are playing their roles correctly. And those roles are not altogether appealing to as many people as you'd think.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5242	Posted - 2014.03.17 20:13:00 - [36] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Most notably because all rifles will have a reduction in damage to accomodate a longer TTK but the HMG will not. IMO, it's already in a pretty good place and it's only intended counters in the CQC environment are the AR and the SG, both of which are getting some pretty hefty nerfs come 1.8 Fairly worried that the HMG will completely replace other CQC options as the new heavies gain in popularity and the subsequent nerfs occur. I kinda feel as though rifles were singled out in the TTK area in this aspect, some were obviously over-powering but there were others that were already falling short here in 1.7 (breach, burst and tactical AR, for instance). I can't be the only one with this concern. In CQC the heavy needs to be absolutely undisputed. He moves slow and has no other application whatsoever. Not "in a good place". The absolute best and always winning. Other CQC options should be inferior to the heavy's, because they come with the benefit of increased mobility, the ability to cloak and set up kills, and better scan precision for situational awareness. The heavy is a gigantic flashing "Here I am, *******" beacon with a giant gun attached to it. He has to be absolutely dominant in direct combat. The heavy will be fine in 1.8, leave him alone. Than I'd like to throw in my hat for Gallente Assault + Assault Rifle to be the absolute king of CQC outside of that. Gallente Assault should require teamwork to kill and it's only counter should be a Heavy with an HMG because it's slow, like the Gallente Assault and it's armor. It should take -at least- five people to kill a Gallente Assault. I'm thinking bonuses like: +10% Blaster Weapon damage and +10% reduction to incoming Light Weapon Damage. Absolutely undisputed. EDIT: Absolute best and always winning is a surefire sign for bad balance brosef. There needs to be counters to things like this. NOTHING should be 'always winning'. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
noob cavman Expert Intervention Caldari State 799	Posted - 2014.03.17 20:13:00 - [37] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Most notably because all rifles will have a reduction in damage to accomodate a longer TTK but the HMG will not. IMO, it's already in a pretty good place and it's only intended counters in the CQC environment are the AR and the SG, both of which are getting some pretty hefty nerfs come 1.8 Fairly worried that the HMG will completely replace other CQC options as the new heavies gain in popularity and the subsequent nerfs occur. I kinda feel as though rifles were singled out in the TTK area in this aspect, some were obviously over-powering but there were others that were already falling short here in 1.7 (breach, burst and tactical AR, for instance). I can't be the only one with this concern. In CQC the heavy needs to be absolutely undisputed. He moves slow and has no other application whatsoever. Not "in a good place". The absolute best and always winning. Other CQC options should be inferior to the heavy's, because they come with the benefit of increased mobility, the ability to cloak and set up kills, and better scan precision for situational awareness. The heavy is a gigantic flashing "Here I am, *******" beacon with a giant gun attached to it. He has to be absolutely dominant in direct combat. The heavy will be fine in 1.8, leave him alone. Il be honest I don't want to touch the heavy in any way. I just want my shotgun prof bonus to stay they way it is. I am your counter, I am your shadowy bane raptor jumping to pump your spine full of lead. I need that rof bonus to do my job of killing you from behind. I will not even begin to talk on heavy vs med combat. Il leave that to fellow metal friend amadi with his big words XD I want to be a caveman! Ccp: DENIED YOU DRUNK British ninja cowboy scout, logi, heavy
Tech Ohm Eaven L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1410	Posted - 2014.03.17 20:15:00 - [38] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I predict Heavy514 with a some scouts hiding under every other rock for 1.8. I'm thinkin.... minnie scout, AMD, nova knife, compact hive, cloak, flux grenades. Knife the heavy. If he turns around before you can finish him, he's already in his armor so one MD shot while retreating should do the job. Also, great for sneaking onto roofs to eliminate snipers and rain down destruction from high places. Think about it, a MD capable of hitting you and disappearing only to reappear 15 seconds later behind you! Or a MD on the roof raining hell and disappearing as soon as you go after him just to appear on another roof 30 seconds later! I WILL BE THE MD NINJA! Edit: sentinals @ PRO will have a 25% resistance to blast damage, but with the MD buff plus combining it with flux grenades, they will still do some damage. I estimate 5-6 shots for the heaviest armor heavies as long as they have no reps and the flux drops all of their shields. three basic re, four advanced re, five proto re, ammar logi boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, ........ hey folks those heavies we re killed sent hatemail....lol. Hey CCP get a PS4 client Planetside 2 in June on PS4 Dust Deserters Alliance
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3297	Posted - 2014.03.17 20:18:00 - [39] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Most notably because all rifles will have a reduction in damage to accomodate a longer TTK but the HMG will not. IMO, it's already in a pretty good place and it's only intended counters in the CQC environment are the AR and the SG, both of which are getting some pretty hefty nerfs come 1.8 Fairly worried that the HMG will completely replace other CQC options as the new heavies gain in popularity and the subsequent nerfs occur. I kinda feel as though rifles were singled out in the TTK area in this aspect, some were obviously over-powering but there were others that were already falling short here in 1.7 (breach, burst and tactical AR, for instance). I can't be the only one with this concern. In CQC the heavy needs to be absolutely undisputed. He moves slow and has no other application whatsoever. Not "in a good place". The absolute best and always winning. Other CQC options should be inferior to the heavy's, because they come with the benefit of increased mobility, the ability to cloak and set up kills, and better scan precision for situational awareness. The heavy is a gigantic flashing "Here I am, *******" beacon with a giant gun attached to it. He has to be absolutely dominant in direct combat. The heavy will be fine in 1.8, leave him alone. Than I'd like to throw in my hat for Gallente Assault + Assault Rifle to be the absolute king of CQC outside of that. Gallente Assault should require teamwork to kill and it's only counter should be a Heavy with an HMG because it's slow, like the Gallente Assault and it's armor. It should take -at least- five people to kill a Gallente Assault. I'm thinking bonuses like: +10% Blaster Weapon damage and +10% reduction to incoming Light Weapon Damage. Absolutely undisputed. The AR needs a buff to its damage, and a decrease to its accuracy. It needs to work in the same way that the AR from Halo works. All other stereotypes have been filled.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 7473	Posted - 2014.03.17 20:21:00 - [40] - Quote Chibi Andy wrote: well considering before the 10% dmg buff to the HMG, the HMG was just a giant BB gun that tickles the enemies armor. so technically the HMG is fine where it is now. unless of course everyone just wants a broken HMG so they can kill the heavies more easier. then you'll just see a surge of RR/CR/SCR heavies once the HMG is dead. They also decreased the accuracy, which was a major reason why the HMG was underperforming, it was too accurate. Remove that ROF buff and it would still be god mode. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. DUST514514

Rusty Shallows 1140	Posted - 2014.03.17 20:32:00 - [41] - Quote The current Big-Four Rifles are still better, including inside any HMG optimal. The December patch just closed the difference so they aren't easy +50s anymore. If the HMG was in such a good place people still wouldn't be flocking to rifles instead using a heavy weapon as the Sentinel Frame was intended. It is really annoying to hear someone who just stopped using an HMG to brag on the headset about his new rising kill-board scores. I am concerned on the buffer somewhat. I am concerned whenever buffing and nerfing are done at the same time. In the case of the stacking damage mod nerf and the groundbreaking changes to what was this game's Sacred Cows the original hit-point total might have been better. It is hard to tease out an answer since foot work is about to become far more important for everyone. People who can already shield skirmish against HMG Sentinels are getting a big buff. If the HMG does need a change for once in CCP's history I pray it is a rebalance. Nerfing a terrible design approach, rarely fixes anything, makes the game developers look lazy and incompetent regardless of the facts. Outright nerfing should be a last resort not a knee-jerk reaction. That being said I'm not sure what tweaks could be done for a close-quarters bullet-hose. Maybe lower damage and remove overheat with a magazine increase to make it a suppression weapon? Lower damage and increase range for better area denial? If there are any perceived issues with the HMGs I'm seriously begging people to think on how the weapon is supposed to viably fit into this game. My concerns right now are for shotguns which may end up being indirectly nerfed into weak-sauce come Uprising 1.8 the reckoning. I haven't even touched them since Chrome so there isn't any self-interest involved. Here, have some candy and a Like. :-) Forums > Game
Chibi Andy Forsaken Immortals Top Men. 1064	Posted - 2014.03.17 20:34:00 - [42] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Chibi Andy wrote: well considering before the 10% dmg buff to the HMG, the HMG was just a giant BB gun that tickles the enemies armor. so technically the HMG is fine where it is now. unless of course everyone just wants a broken HMG so they can kill the heavies more easier. then you'll just see a surge of RR/CR/SCR heavies once the HMG is dead. They also decreased the accuracy, which was a major reason why the HMG was underperforming, it was too accurate. Remove that ROF buff and it would still be god mode. well we never asked for a ROF buff just a dmg buff but you know how CCP is, always doing things their way YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED!!! sç+a¦át¢èa¦á)sç+ (pâÄa¦át¢èa¦á)pâÄs+íGö+GöüGö+
Rusty Shallows 1140	Posted - 2014.03.17 20:45:00 - [43] - Quote Chibi Andy wrote: well we never asked for a ROF buff just a dmg buff but you know how CCP is, always doing things their way However it did make sense for the change to the HMG Operation skill. Which originally was a harsh and pointless nerf that left allot of us scratching our heads. Here, have some candy and a Like. :-) Forums > Game
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 974	Posted - 2014.03.17 20:54:00 - [44] - Quote I love this attitude of the Sentinel users. Well I'm a heavy so I should be able to kill anything and everything I see. It should take multiple assaults to take me down, just engage at range, etc..etc... Now where have I heard these sort of arguments before?...hmmmmm...oh yeah. that's right, it was tank drivers. And that has worked out really well for game balance hasn't it. I just wish for once people would look past their own selfish desires to be the most powerful badass in new Eden and actually critically look at imbalances.\ By the way, if you spec into the Sentinel for the first time in 1.8 don't start crying for a respec when the suits get nerfed in 1.9. Ask a Sentinel vet about the cycle of heavy buffs and nerfs. Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Jastad D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 627	Posted - 2014.03.17 21:05:00 - [45] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: I love this attitude of the Sentinel users. Well I'm a heavy so I should be able to kill anything and everything I see. It should take multiple assaults to take me down, just engage at range, etc..etc... Now where have I heard these sort of arguments before?...hmmmmm...oh yeah. that's right, it was tank drivers. And that has worked out really well for game balance hasn't it. I just wish for once people would look past their own selfish desires to be the most powerful badass in new Eden and actually critically look at imbalances.\ By the way, if you spec into the Sentinel for the first time in 1.8 don't start crying for a respec when the suits get nerfed in 1.9. Ask a Sentinel vet about the cycle of heavy buffs and nerfs. Bullshit. What WE heavy players have always asked is a PLACE on the battlefield, A GODDAMN ROLE that non other can do better than US. for all that matter to me CCP can make us do the AV-Patrol or something else. i only e simply want a ROLE.CCP said that we are for point defense, so in point defense we MUST shine. IF a bricktanked LOgi or ass can kill an Heavy in cqc with ease, whats the point in bringing an heavy? Just bring a medium, you will have an equip too. 'Till now people only use BrickLOGIS and DMG-ASS with the most OP weapon they can find and just jump in front of an heavy and kill him. Now this don't work anymore. Amarr SCR user. Believe in the FORGE, young padawans C'èSoloDoloreSuCharlie
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 484	Posted - 2014.03.17 21:05:00 - [46] - Quote Tell someone it should take multiple people to take down a single person in a tank, and nobody bats an eye. Tell someone they should lose to a single heavy within 20m, and everyone loses their minds.
Oxskull Duncarino 0uter.Heaven 493	Posted - 2014.03.17 21:11:00 - [47] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Chibi Andy wrote: well considering before the 10% dmg buff to the HMG, the HMG was just a giant BB gun that tickles the enemies armor. so technically the HMG is fine where it is now. unless of course everyone just wants a broken HMG so they can kill the heavies more easier. then you'll just see a surge of RR/CR/SCR heavies once the HMG is dead. They also decreased the accuracy, which was a major reason why the HMG was underperforming, it was too accurate. Remove that ROF buff and it would still be god mode. Ya might want to stop smoking whatever you're smoking if ya really think that removing a fifth of the HMG's rate of fire would leave the HMG with "god mode" Until the patch notes come out, or a Dev posts in the meantime, we don't know if the shotgun is getting its proficiency changed. All that I've seen so far is that weapons that had both damage types increased due to proficiency were having that be changed to damage type specific. Lets hold our horses before seeing where we stand.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 2417	Posted - 2014.03.17 21:11:00 - [48] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Most notably because all rifles will have a reduction in damage to accomodate a longer TTK but the HMG will not. IMO, it's already in a pretty good place and it's only intended counters in the CQC environment are the AR and the SG, both of which are getting some pretty hefty nerfs come 1.8 Fairly worried that the HMG will completely replace other CQC options as the new heavies gain in popularity and the subsequent nerfs occur. I kinda feel as though rifles were singled out in the TTK area in this aspect, some were obviously over-powering but there were others that were already falling short here in 1.7 (breach, burst and tactical AR, for instance). I can't be the only one with this concern. In CQC the heavy needs to be absolutely undisputed. He moves slow and has no other application whatsoever. Not "in a good place". The absolute best and always winning. Other CQC options should be inferior to the heavy's, because they come with the benefit of increased mobility, the ability to cloak and set up kills, and better scan precision for situational awareness. The heavy is a gigantic flashing "Here I am, *****" beacon with a giant gun attached to it. He has to be absolutely dominant in direct combat. The heavy will be fine in 1.8, leave him alone. The smart money is usually on Aeon's analysis of things, but I'd have to agree that if even a gallente assault with a properly balanced AR (which is not what we will have in 1.8) meets up with a sentinel with an HMG within 20-30 meters, skill and meta level being equal, the sentinel should win. Pretty much every time. Double the range, the assault should win. Is that what we will have in 1.8? No, of course not. But it is nonetheless a fairly well balanced scenario. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics"** -Sun Tzu Forum Warrior lv.2 Amarr victor!
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5248	Posted - 2014.03.17 21:29:00 - [49] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Most notably because all rifles will have a reduction in damage to accomodate a longer TTK but the HMG will not. IMO, it's already in a pretty good place and it's only intended counters in the CQC environment are the AR and the SG, both of which are getting some pretty hefty nerfs come 1.8 Fairly worried that the HMG will completely replace other CQC options as the new heavies gain in popularity and the subsequent nerfs occur. I kinda feel as though rifles were singled out in the TTK area in this aspect, some were obviously over-powering but there were others that were already falling short here in 1.7 (breach, burst and tactical AR, for instance). I can't be the only one with this concern. In CQC the heavy needs to be absolutely undisputed. He moves slow and has no other application whatsoever. Not "in a good place". The absolute best and always winning. Other CQC options should be inferior to the heavy's, because they come with the benefit of increased mobility, the ability to cloak and set up kills, and better scan precision for situational awareness. The heavy is a gigantic flashing "Here I am, *******" beacon with a giant gun attached to it. He has to be absolutely dominant in direct combat. The heavy will be fine in 1.8, leave him alone. The smart money is usually on Aeon's analysis of things, but I'd have to agree that if even a gallente assault with a properly balanced AR (which is not what we will have in 1.8) meets up with a sentinel with an HMG within 20-30 meters, skill and meta level being equal, the sentinel should win. Pretty much every time. Double the range, the assault should win. Is that what we will have in 1.8? No, of course not. But it is nonetheless a fairly well balanced scenario. I'm not saying that the Gal Assault should win, hands down - I'm just saying that it should be a toss up. CQC in a hallway where the Assault can't move, should definitely be in the Sentinel's favor. Have a bit of leeway for the Gal Assault to move around? He should definitely have the upper hand. Unfortunately, this isn't the case as long as turn speeds remain the same across all tiers of suits. A Heavy can turn just as fast as a Scout. In CQC, there's no downside to using a Sentinel - that's my primary complaint. Range is a good counter to the Sentinel, but it's also a good counter to the Gal Assault + AR. I want Sentinel's to have a role (though I'd argue they're the best if not the only long range AV available) but at the same time, Gallente Assault has to have a role too. If CQC isn't in his field, then it needs to be good at something else. EDIT: Crucial grammar error has been fixed. Also, an addition: I don't think that nerfs/buffs should be praised because "Logi's have been slayers for too long" - there's an innate flaw of bias when praising balance changes based on revenge Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 975	Posted - 2014.03.17 21:33:00 - [50] - Quote If point defense is all Sentinels could do...fine, but lets face the facts people have been using LAVs and other means to get around the heavy role forever and make it basically the most powerful infantry suit off an on since closed beta. Thus we have the cycle of heavy nerfs and buffs. Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.

Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5249	Posted - 2014.03.17 21:41:00 - [51] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: If point defense is all Sentinels could do...fine, but lets face the facts people have been using LAVs and other means to get around the heavy role forever and make it basically the most powerful infantry suit off an on since closed beta. Thus we have the cycle of heavy nerfs and buffs. There's also Kin Cat Heavies which move faster than some Logi's =P Minmatar Sentinel with those is going to be beast just because of the built in passive defense on the suit. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 217	Posted - 2014.03.17 21:54:00 - [52] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Zahle Undt wrote: If point defense is all Sentinels could do...fine, but lets face the facts people have been using LAVs and other means to get around the heavy role forever and make it basically the most powerful infantry suit off an on since closed beta. Thus we have the cycle of heavy nerfs and buffs. There's also Kin Cat Heavies which move faster than some Logi's =P Minmatar Sentinel with those is going to be beast just because of the built in passive defense on the suit. Yepp, but with much less HP! I've been a logi so far. I tried to speed stamina tank most of my career. Then the new rifles hit and I had no choice, but to do the 1.7 credo: damage on the left and armor on the right. With the nerfed rifles, it will hopefully be possible to go towards speed/stamina again. And I plan to use the weakest heavy with an HMG and speed tank it. This means, that it will still be prey to the rifle users if they see me from afar. But if I get a jump on them they are easy prey hopefully. In the end we will see. If heavys are completely broken after the patch they will be nerfed again. If not they will be nerfed anyway, since the medium frame masterrace can't stand anything that kills it!
ARF 1049 The Phoenix Federation 62	Posted - 2014.03.17 22:02:00 - [53] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: If you look into the barrels of an HMG, you're supposed to die... It will finally be as it's supposed. If you want to get that heavie on the node, engage from a distance if possible, and for those CQC situations, grenades will still help, you just need some hives. Massdrivers will see a comeback for those situations. But mostly, CQC is heavy and sneaky scout territory. But there are enough places on the maps where mediums will still be the suits to use. But at 40m away the HMG shouldn't be effective, if you want to reduce TTK on everything else they have to edit the HMG just reduce it's ROF and optimal range... Sure the heavies will b**** but let them suffer like every other suit! heavies sipping around and back pedaling to get out of my shotguns 6 foot range and they are fine, same with RR buff the shotty or nerf the HMG then they can truly be skill matched not just the heavy back pedaling and winning. "You will never see me coming, as that of a shadow, invisible to your scanner and your eyes. Prepare your anus."
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 977	Posted - 2014.03.17 22:05:00 - [54] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Zahle Undt wrote: If point defense is all Sentinels could do...fine, but lets face the facts people have been using LAVs and other means to get around the heavy role forever and make it basically the most powerful infantry suit off an on since closed beta. Thus we have the cycle of heavy nerfs and buffs. There's also Kin Cat Heavies which move faster than some Logi's =P Minmatar Sentinel with those is going to be beast just because of the built in passive defense on the suit. Yepp, but with much less HP! I've been a logi so far. I tried to speed stamina tank most of my career. Then the new rifles hit and I had no choice, but to do the 1.7 credo: damage on the left and armor on the right. With the nerfed rifles, it will hopefully be possible to go towards speed/stamina again. And I plan to use the weakest heavy with an HMG and speed tank it. This means, that it will still be prey to the rifle users if they see me from afar. But if I get a jump on them they are easy prey hopefully. In the end we will see. If heavys are completely broken after the patch they will be nerfed again. If not they will be nerfed anyway, since the medium frame masterrace can't stand anything that kills it! Sadly, you are probably right. I want the Sentinel to be useful, even if I don't run them I have friends that do, and heck I run support logi so fat guys are my bread and butter. Yet I also don't think a game where Sentinels are only kill able by other Sentinels is good either. We'll see what happens in 1.8 but here's what I think need to be the "nerfs" to heavy: 1. Reduce the resistance from (at proto) 15% to racial enemy and 10% to racial ally to just the 15% to racial enemy 2. Give the HMG a damage nerf consistent with the reduced damage of rifles (so in the area of 10%) That's it, hardly role killing IMO Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 217	Posted - 2014.03.17 22:08:00 - [55] - Quote ARF 1049 wrote: But at 40m away the HMG shouldn't be effective, if you want to reduce TTK on everything else they have to edit the HMG just reduce it's ROF and optimal range... Sure the heavies will b**** but let them suffer like every other suit! heavies sipping around and back pedaling to get out of my shotguns 6 foot range and they are fine, same with RR buff the shotty or nerf the HMG then they can truly be skill matched not just the heavy back pedaling and winning. That's exactly it, at 40m in the hands of a caldari assault, the HMG will probably still be beat by the RR. The shotgun definitely needs to be powerful enough to give a scout the chance for a successfull surprise attack (in skilled hands).
TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1708	Posted - 2014.03.17 22:19:00 - [56] - Quote shrug 90% of the heavies i face are utter trash, and they all die the same to my shotgun and soon to be CreoDron Ion Pistol. Anime > EVERYTHING
Oxskull Duncarino 0uter.Heaven 493	Posted - 2014.03.17 22:20:00 - [57] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Zahle Undt wrote: If point defense is all Sentinels could do...fine, but lets face the facts people have been using LAVs and other means to get around the heavy role forever and make it basically the most powerful infantry suit off an on since closed beta. Thus we have the cycle of heavy nerfs and buffs. There's also Kin Cat Heavies which move faster than some Logi's =P Minmatar Sentinel with those is going to be beast just because of the built in passive defense on the suit. Yepp, but with much less HP! I've been a logi so far. I tried to speed stamina tank most of my career. Then the new rifles hit and I had no choice, but to do the 1.7 credo: damage on the left and armor on the right. With the nerfed rifles, it will hopefully be possible to go towards speed/stamina again. And I plan to use the weakest heavy with an HMG and speed tank it. This means, that it will still be prey to the rifle users if they see me from afar. But if I get a jump on them they are easy prey hopefully. In the end we will see. If heavys are completely broken after the patch they will be nerfed again. If not they will be nerfed anyway, since the medium frame masterrace can't stand anything that kills it! Sadly, you are probably right. I want the Sentinel to be useful, even if I don't run them I have friends that do, and heck I run support logi so fat guys are my bread and butter. Yet I also don't think a game where Sentinels are only kill able by other Sentinels is good either. We'll see what happens in 1.8 but here's what I think need to be the "nerfs" to heavy: 1. Reduce the resistance from (at proto) 15% to racial enemy and 10% to racial ally to just the 15% to racial enemy 2. Give the HMG a damage nerf consistent with the reduced damage of rifles (so in the area of 10%) That's it, hardly role killing IMO Until all heavy AP weapons are in the game, no single heavy suit should be the only one that has a resistance to the only presently ingame heavy AP weapon, the HMG. Once they're all ingame, then I'd be well happy with reduction to just a single resistance. Truth be told, I don't think there should have been all the weapon specific damage resistance introduced. It's to much to fast without seeing how a few tweaks work. All that should have been brought in for 1.8 was the splash resistance. I've been a heavy for a long time, but even though I benefit from the changes I'm uncomfortable with them for the general game balance
Azri Sarum BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 293	Posted - 2014.03.18 00:03:00 - [58] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Most notably because all rifles will have a reduction in damage to accomodate a longer TTK but the HMG will not. IMO, it's already in a pretty good place and it's only intended counters in the CQC environment are the AR and the SG, both of which are getting some pretty hefty nerfs come 1.8 Fairly worried that the HMG will completely replace other CQC options as the new heavies gain in popularity and the subsequent nerfs occur. I kinda feel as though rifles were singled out in the TTK area in this aspect, some were obviously over-powering but there were others that were already falling short here in 1.7 (breach, burst and tactical AR, for instance). I can't be the only one with this concern. You're not. I also think that the balance for heavies is in a fairly good place right now. Not perfect, but close. There are two changes in 1.8 that will directly affect this balance. Rifle nerfs, but no hmg nerf. This increases the hmg's relative power by ~(10% - 15%) Heavy Resistances. 25% reduction to splash damage and additional 10-15% damage resistances vs specific weapon types. This will make heavies tankier. Individually neither change seems to much, but I am worried that this will be a classic case of CCP nerfing and buffing simultaneously to produce a larger than intended result. Some of this might be mitigated by the potential assault role 10% rof bonus we saw on sisi, but that has not been confirmed yet afaik. So im worried. I really do not what to see 1.8 do to heavies what 1.7 did to tanks. EVE - Victor Maximus DUST - Azri Sarum
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 150	Posted - 2014.03.18 00:05:00 - [59] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: If you look into the barrels of an HMG, you're supposed to die... It will finally be as it's supposed. If you want to get that heavie on the node, engage from a distance if possible, and for those CQC situations, grenades will still help, you just need some hives. Massdrivers will see a comeback for those situations. But mostly, CQC is heavy and sneaky scout territory. But there are enough places on the maps where mediums will still be the suits to use. No. Open places-Tanks Cities/CQC hotspots-HMG Kills-Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 755	Posted - 2014.03.18 00:19:00 - [60] - Quote TERMINALANCE wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Most notably because all rifles will have a reduction in damage to accomodate a longer TTK but the HMG will not. IMO, it's already in a pretty good place and it's only intended counters in the CQC environment are the AR and the SG, both of which are getting some pretty hefty nerfs come 1.8 Fairly worried that the HMG will completely replace other CQC options as the new heavies gain in popularity and the subsequent nerfs occur. I kinda feel as though rifles were singled out in the TTK area in this aspect, some were obviously over-powering but there were others that were already falling short here in 1.7 (breach, burst and tactical AR, for instance). I can't be the only one with this concern. AR is not a counter for the hmg that would be ******, HMG is supposed to counter medium suits at close range. shotgun on a fast suit is a great counter for a heavy. the idea that you are supposed to counter a heavy by going toe to toe is ******, I cant take a heavy suit and go toe to toe face to face with a veh now can i? ARs are supposed to be meant at countering other light weapons in its optimum range as well as having a much larger jack of all trades use. really they should keep the ar dmg where it is and up its effective ranges by about 25% Honestly any heavy that is not capable to kill a scout by the time the scout needs to land 3 or 4 SG shots is just bad. Especially now that the RoF bonus will change to a shield damage bonus...the SG is NOT a counter to sentinals. If at all LR and RR will be counters to setinal as those weapons can keep them at distance and still delivers enough damage. The AR will be mostly dead in 1.8 (gets beaten by the Magsec ). I guess we will have a similar situation with sentinals like with vehicles: some good ones from the old days will come back but we will mostly see new heavies that will use the heavy as assault suit (mainly those who think hp tanking is the only way to play dust)

Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 755	Posted - 2014.03.18 00:21:00 - [61] - Quote Azri Sarum wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Most notably because all rifles will have a reduction in damage to accomodate a longer TTK but the HMG will not. IMO, it's already in a pretty good place and it's only intended counters in the CQC environment are the AR and the SG, both of which are getting some pretty hefty nerfs come 1.8 Fairly worried that the HMG will completely replace other CQC options as the new heavies gain in popularity and the subsequent nerfs occur. I kinda feel as though rifles were singled out in the TTK area in this aspect, some were obviously over-powering but there were others that were already falling short here in 1.7 (breach, burst and tactical AR, for instance). I can't be the only one with this concern. You're not. I also think that the balance for heavies is in a fairly good place right now. Not perfect, but close. There are two changes in 1.8 that will directly affect this balance. Rifle nerfs, but no hmg nerf. This increases the hmg's relative power by ~(10% - 15%) Heavy Resistances. 25% reduction to splash damage and additional 10-15% damage resistances vs specific weapon types. This will make heavies tankier. Individually neither change seems to much, but I am worried that this will be a classic case of CCP nerfing and buffing simultaneously to produce a larger than intended result. Some of this might be mitigated by the potential assault role 10% rof bonus we saw on sisi, but that has not been confirmed yet afaik. So im worried. I really do not what to see 1.8 do to heavies what 1.7 did to tanks. The assaults rof bonus has gone for now, thanks to all the whining: oh this is op, oh I lost my heat reduction and rof doesn't benefit my SCR etc...
jerrmy12 kahoalii 526	Posted - 2014.03.18 00:23:00 - [62] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Yeah, the HMG should be nerfed 5%, damage wise. It needs ita rof buff gone Closed beta vet Logi, Heavy, Python, Scout. Dark souls 2 new game plus.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 3528	Posted - 2014.03.18 01:17:00 - [63] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Most notably because all rifles will have a reduction in damage to accomodate a longer TTK but the HMG will not. IMO, it's already in a pretty good place and it's only intended counters in the CQC environment are the AR and the SG, both of which are getting some pretty hefty nerfs come 1.8 Fairly worried that the HMG will completely replace other CQC options as the new heavies gain in popularity and the subsequent nerfs occur. I kinda feel as though rifles were singled out in the TTK area in this aspect, some were obviously over-powering but there were others that were already falling short here in 1.7 (breach, burst and tactical AR, for instance). I can't be the only one with this concern. The idea that the SMG needed a nerf, but its bigger brother didn't is bizarre. No.
neausea 1987 R 0 N 1 N 64	Posted - 2014.03.18 02:29:00 - [64] - Quote hey do me a favor go to an army base or to someone who owns a ( gatling,vulcan,chaingun,ect) and tell me what ttk has to do with it. i mean you cant nerf the death machine bruh, and im a scout. it might suck but there is always a way around it. (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ throws remote explosive and runs to the flank, the RE" was just a decoy
Tectonic Fusion 1257	Posted - 2014.03.18 02:30:00 - [65] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Yeah, the HMG should be nerfed 5%, damage wise. You got 1 like WTF? When I said that everybody raged at me. Solo Player Squad status: Locked
The Terminator T-1000 Skynet Incorporated 200	Posted - 2014.03.18 02:36:00 - [66] - Quote if something outperforms the HMG in CQC then there is a problem. Stop whining already!
LEHON Xeon Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 328	Posted - 2014.03.18 03:41:00 - [67] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: If you look into the barrels of an HMG, you're supposed to die... It will finally be as it's supposed. If you want to get that heavie on the node, engage from a distance if possible, and for those CQC situations, grenades will still help, you just need some hives. Massdrivers will see a comeback for those situations. But mostly, CQC is heavy and sneaky scout territory. But there are enough places on the maps where mediums will still be the suits to use. That argument doesn't hold up anymore because around half of the heavies i see now are all running light weapons. There is no "engage these suits outside of their range" any longer. It's a trap! In this patch we can't repel firepower of that magnitude! - Admiral Ackbar would say in ambush w Nyain San
LEHON Xeon Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 328	Posted - 2014.03.18 03:47:00 - [68] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Heavies can tank REs. Sometimes three, in edge cases. Proto knives are survivable for up to four strikes even if you charge initially. Flux will assist, but the only heavy it'll be really effective against will be the Minmatar one. And they all have a 25% blast resistance, so the mass driver is out the window. Some heavies can tank a full magsec clip. Direct hits with the MD still do full damage! So you need to aim, and not only spam the floor. In the end, the heavy will need teamwork to take down or a sneaky scout to prepare him... Oh god another "will need teamwork to take down" argument. Look, game is only 16v16 - this argument didn't work with Tanks and it sure as **** won't work with Heavies unless there's a limit to how many can be fielded and I know for a solid fact no-one wants that. If it takes more than one person to kill any one other person - there's an imbalance. It's the DEFINITION of imbalance. It needs counters. Not -counter-. Plural. Edit: And it should -NOT- under any circumstances be the exact same thing used to counter it. It's terrible game design to have to counter something with what you're countering. This is my great concern for 1.8 as well. You get multiple people in sentinel suits camping a primary objective (the pivotal point in skirmish or the sole objective in Dom) and no one is going to be getting in there in any reasonable time because of all the stupid high resistance buffs. Grenade damage is automatically nerfed, if they use all Amarr and Gallente heavies, all RR and CR damage is automatically nerfed, and so are indirect mass driver rounds. You get 4 or 5 of these guys, all in the same suit with most using CRs and RRs, it's going to make for a really ugly time. It's a trap! In this patch we can't repel firepower of that magnitude! - Admiral Ackbar would say in ambush w Nyain San
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 1899	Posted - 2014.03.18 03:48:00 - [69] - Quote I'll post it again in this thread: Heavy in a Ion Blaster Madrugar. >Bastard I : "Cce me ne... futt! XD"
Rusty Shallows 1142	Posted - 2014.03.18 03:48:00 - [70] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Yeah, the HMG should be nerfed 5%, damage wise. You got 1 like WTF? When I said that everybody raged at me. We all love DeadlyAtec11 no matter what he says. Here, have some candy and a Like. :-) Forums > Game

TunRa D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 519	Posted - 2014.03.18 03:50:00 - [71] - Quote LEHON Xeon wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Heavies can tank REs. Sometimes three, in edge cases. Proto knives are survivable for up to four strikes even if you charge initially. Flux will assist, but the only heavy it'll be really effective against will be the Minmatar one. And they all have a 25% blast resistance, so the mass driver is out the window. Some heavies can tank a full magsec clip. Direct hits with the MD still do full damage! So you need to aim, and not only spam the floor. In the end, the heavy will need teamwork to take down or a sneaky scout to prepare him... Oh god another "will need teamwork to take down" argument. Look, game is only 16v16 - this argument didn't work with Tanks and it sure as **** won't work with Heavies unless there's a limit to how many can be fielded and I know for a solid fact no-one wants that. If it takes more than one person to kill any one other person - there's an imbalance. It's the DEFINITION of imbalance. It needs counters. Not -counter-. Plural. Edit: And it should -NOT- under any circumstances be the exact same thing used to counter it. It's terrible game design to have to counter something with what you're countering. This is my great concern for 1.8 as well. You get multiple people in sentinel suits camping a primary objective (the pivotal point in skirmish or the sole objective in Dom) and no one is going to be getting in there in any reasonable time because of all the stupid high resistance buffs. Grenade damage is automatically nerfed, if they use all Amarr and Gallente heavies, all RR and CR damage is automatically nerfed, and so are indirect mass driver rounds. You get 4 or 5 of these guys, all in the same suit with most using CRs and RRs, it's going to make for a really ugly time. Focus fire maybe? Take down 1 sentinel at a time, not just have a team of 16 shoot everywhere. Thanks CCP Foxfour Likes received: 514
LEHON Xeon Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 328	Posted - 2014.03.18 03:58:00 - [72] - Quote I guess it's time to bring in the math I did again from an earlier posting since people still think there's going to be absolutely nothing wrong with these new sentinel suits. For everyone who has already seen this, sorry for the repeat, but it seems some people still don't get it. "Here's my issue with these new heavies. First of all, like some other guys said in here already, HMG is taking no nerfs at all. That may eventually cause a problem a long the lines with being able to get into and take over objectives in skirmishes. Get a couple heavies camping a letter (particularly in a dom) and you aren't going to be getting in there any time soon most likely without some sort of vehicle or a ton of people. HMGs already cut down people pretty good the way it is. You can have a TTK increase all you want, it still will equal out in the end back to what we have now, but this isn't the main problem. The main problem with HMGs currently is that slowdown or "sloth" effect when hit by continuous streams of bullets, completely stopping any player's ability to get behind cover once they get fired upon by an HMG. Second, we're all taking a grenade nerf, both actively through a reduction in the number we can carry and also subtly through heavy explosive resistances. I like to use core nades at times. They especially are helpful when you have heavies that spawn in around an objective you're hacking and try to get the jump on you. Bring down their shields with a CR or ScR while jumping around while cooking a core nade, toss that sucker and a lot of times you can then finish them off. No longer possible with the explosive resistances. I'll just use the base damage for a rough estimate, take 25% off of 600 and you're already down to 450. You get a sentinel that is using brick tank with around 1200 armor, you aren't even going to get through half his HP. Then you combine that with rifle nerfs, proficiency nerfs, and damage mod nerfs, and things are gonna get ugly. I can say the same with REs. Take 25% off of 1500 and you're down to 1,125. Fully tanked Amarr sentinels will easily resist RE blasts without an issue, and if their shields full to begin with, more than one RE. Then if we look at the Gallente sentinel with a comparable armor HP level, we find that he will be able to resist at least one RE. If the RE was placed merely to guard an objective against hacking, that Gallente sentinel can absorb the RE blast (if he has full shields possibly more than one RE even), hack the objective and then automatically start repping from his passive armor repair. Yes these bonuses may be small, but if no one can get back to that objective immediately, he can simply camp it, while his passive armor repair (even though it is only 1 hp/sec and very small) would let him hold that area combined with his shield reserves until a logi or someone with a rep tool or hive arrived. Even if he had to "hold out" briefly, within around 5 minutes his entire base suit armor level would be almost fully repaired. Lastly we have the resistance bonuses. I'll use Gallente and Amarr as those have the rail/projectile resistance. For any engagements at any range, most people are going to be still using RR or CR as an armor counter weapon (although we'll see somewhat of a return of MD I'm sure). If people using these Amarr/Gallente sentinels hold true to the heavy idea and use HMGs, then this whole ordeal will not even be an issue, however as this last event has shown, we now have plenty of scrubs that use sentinel fatsuits with RR. Taking this resistance bonus into account, that's 10 to 15% for projectile and rail weapons. This means that any medium suit, even a tanked logi suit with RR with the max out of around 1000 eHP still will fail miserably in a standard engagement with a sentinel suit. It's plain mathematics. If they notice each other at around the same time (fighting even at the longest optimal range available), or even if the logi suit gets a slight jump on the Amarr sentinel from a flank, he is still going to loose. 1000 eHP is not going to outdo around 2000 eHP. It's as simple as that. That is just from what we have now already pre 1.8 Now you factor in that extra 10 or 15% resistance and that Amarr or Gallente sentinel will trump that logi or other medium suit every single time. Like the OP said above, that 15% makes for an extra 210 more HP. Does not seem like much, but when we are dealing with these high of numbers, that is a ton. That sentinel will be afforded at least an extra few seconds (with the new reduced TTK) due to that bonus while the other medium suits have none. If these new heavies were only to use HMGs, forges, or sidearms, then I could easily buy into the argument that they aren't overpowered as the argument of "well fight them from outside of their optimal and you'll have no trouble" would be true. However, I know full well, with these new bonuses, light weapon heavies, particularly the RR heavies will become even more prevalent than they are now and it will be much worse than currently. TL;DR 1.Heavy resistances to explosives will cause huge problems when using REs and grenades to counter their armor 2. Simple numerics combined with new bonuses means in an equal situation and even a slight disadvantage, light weapon heavies will prevail every single time against scout and medium suits. 3. If heavies only functioned optimally at CQC - lower mid ranges (like they are designed to) none of these issues would even present a problem. 4. I feel that one bonus or the other should have been used for heavies. Either they gain a resistance to certain weapon types based upon race, OR resistance to explosives. Getting both at once I feel leads to a huge discrepancy for other suit users, heavies will reign supreme, particularly light weapon sentinels." It's a trap! In this patch we can't repel firepower of that magnitude! - Admiral Ackbar would say in ambush w Nyain San
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5257	Posted - 2014.03.18 06:05:00 - [73] - Quote neausea 1987 wrote: hey do me a favor go to an army base or to someone who owns a ( gatling,vulcan,chaingun,ect) and tell me what ttk has to do with it. i mean you cant nerf the death machine bruh, and im a scout. it might suck but there is always a way around it. Please don't insult my intelligence using real-life examples in a game. This isn't Arma or Project Reality - this is a video game based on science fiction super soldiers designed to take as much punishment as they can dish out. kthnxbai On a side note - I just want to inform everyone that I will probably be going Sentinel/Commando and I -will- be using an LAV as my primary form of mobility solely to demonstrate how even a player with terrible gun game can still face-roll by circumventing obvious short-comings. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Vell0cet SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1106	Posted - 2014.03.18 06:29:00 - [74] - Quote If scouts are unable to keep heavies in check the first adjustment should be nerfing their turn speeds. The HMG should be a beast up close, but be countered by range. The other big concern is the heavy in the LAV. This could be addressed by making AV 'nades a viable counter. Best PvE idea ever!
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5257	Posted - 2014.03.18 06:54:00 - [75] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: If scouts are unable to keep heavies in check the first adjustment should be nerfing their turn speeds. The HMG should be a beast up close, but be countered by range. The other big concern is the heavy in the LAV. This could be addressed by making AV 'nades a viable counter. Or introduce the much needed enter/exit animations... Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Vell0cet SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1108	Posted - 2014.03.18 07:39:00 - [76] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Vell0cet wrote: If scouts are unable to keep heavies in check the first adjustment should be nerfing their turn speeds. The HMG should be a beast up close, but be countered by range. The other big concern is the heavy in the LAV. This could be addressed by making AV 'nades a viable counter. Or introduce the much needed enter/exit animations... Yes good point. Both would be a good idea IMO. Best PvE idea ever!
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 756	Posted - 2014.03.18 08:56:00 - [77] - Quote TunRa wrote: LEHON Xeon wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Heavies can tank REs. Sometimes three, in edge cases. Proto knives are survivable for up to four strikes even if you charge initially. Flux will assist, but the only heavy it'll be really effective against will be the Minmatar one. And they all have a 25% blast resistance, so the mass driver is out the window. Some heavies can tank a full magsec clip. Direct hits with the MD still do full damage! So you need to aim, and not only spam the floor. In the end, the heavy will need teamwork to take down or a sneaky scout to prepare him... Oh god another "will need teamwork to take down" argument. Look, game is only 16v16 - this argument didn't work with Tanks and it sure as **** won't work with Heavies unless there's a limit to how many can be fielded and I know for a solid fact no-one wants that. If it takes more than one person to kill any one other person - there's an imbalance. It's the DEFINITION of imbalance. It needs counters. Not -counter-. Plural. Edit: And it should -NOT- under any circumstances be the exact same thing used to counter it. It's terrible game design to have to counter something with what you're countering. This is my great concern for 1.8 as well. You get multiple people in sentinel suits camping a primary objective (the pivotal point in skirmish or the sole objective in Dom) and no one is going to be getting in there in any reasonable time because of all the stupid high resistance buffs. Grenade damage is automatically nerfed, if they use all Amarr and Gallente heavies, all RR and CR damage is automatically nerfed, and so are indirect mass driver rounds. You get 4 or 5 of these guys, all in the same suit with most using CRs and RRs, it's going to make for a really ugly time. Focus fire maybe? Take down 1 sentinel at a time, not just have a team of 16 shoot everywhere. How would you counter 16 heavies?
jerrmy12 kahoalii 539	Posted - 2014.03.18 09:00:00 - [78] - Quote TunRa wrote: LEHON Xeon wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Heavies can tank REs. Sometimes three, in edge cases. Proto knives are survivable for up to four strikes even if you charge initially. Flux will assist, but the only heavy it'll be really effective against will be the Minmatar one. And they all have a 25% blast resistance, so the mass driver is out the window. Some heavies can tank a full magsec clip. Direct hits with the MD still do full damage! So you need to aim, and not only spam the floor. In the end, the heavy will need teamwork to take down or a sneaky scout to prepare him... Oh god another "will need teamwork to take down" argument. Look, game is only 16v16 - this argument didn't work with Tanks and it sure as **** won't work with Heavies unless there's a limit to how many can be fielded and I know for a solid fact no-one wants that. If it takes more than one person to kill any one other person - there's an imbalance. It's the DEFINITION of imbalance. It needs counters. Not -counter-. Plural. Edit: And it should -NOT- under any circumstances be the exact same thing used to counter it. It's terrible game design to have to counter something with what you're countering. This is my great concern for 1.8 as well. You get multiple people in sentinel suits camping a primary objective (the pivotal point in skirmish or the sole objective in Dom) and no one is going to be getting in there in any reasonable time because of all the stupid high resistance buffs. Grenade damage is automatically nerfed, if they use all Amarr and Gallente heavies, all RR and CR damage is automatically nerfed, and so are indirect mass driver rounds. You get 4 or 5 of these guys, all in the same suit with most using CRs and RRs, it's going to make for a really ugly time. Focus fire maybe? Take down 1 sentinel at a time, not just have a team of 16 shoot everywhere. How would you counter 16 heavies? [/quote] Just like the 16 tanjs problem You cant. Closed beta vet Logi, Heavy, Python, Scout. Dark souls 2 new game plus.
I-Shayz-I I-----I 2546	Posted - 2014.03.18 09:00:00 - [79] - Quote Damage mods are still getting nerfed. And proficiency. You seriously can't do anything with just a HMG. I want to say 99% of heavies use damage mods. Shouldn't be that bad. Links: List of Most Important Threads I make logistics videos!
jerrmy12 kahoalii 539	Posted - 2014.03.18 09:05:00 - [80] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Damage mods are still getting nerfed. And proficiency. You seriously can't do anything with just a HMG. I want to say 99% of heavies use damage mods. Shouldn't be that bad. I never use damage mods yet I instakill Closed beta vet Logi, Heavy, Python, Scout. Dark souls 2 new game plus.

Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 757	Posted - 2014.03.18 09:09:00 - [81] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Damage mods are still getting nerfed. And proficiency. You seriously can't do anything with just a HMG. I want to say 99% of heavies use damage mods. Shouldn't be that bad. Thanks to the berf of all Rifles the HMG gets an unnerfed damage mod build in (in relation to the HMG's counter). With a DPS of 600 on a std HMG it will have more DPS than any full automatic weapon. The only Rifle that still can compete is the SCR (in terms of DPS). Heavies won't need damage mods and shield extenders will serve them just as well if not more with the lowered TTK.
Victor889 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 48	Posted - 2014.03.18 09:25:00 - [82] - Quote I think we should just wait and see - after all, what choice do you have? HMG's are fine as they are, I agree it will be a little concerning that everything is getting a nerf but isn't that the point? to make heavies better, TTK increased and more interesting battles as a result. I agree that heavies should own in CQC, and it should remain that way, with the range limitations of the HMG, if they don't have that, they'd be back to where they were after uprising.. I can haz all your Officer Heavy weapons?
Rums McCuUladh The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 103	Posted - 2014.03.18 09:27:00 - [83] - Quote Heavies and light weapons... Nerf their ability to use the weapons effectively. Problem solved for FOTM heavy scrubs! Heavies w/HMG need a role and it is CQC king, no they shouldn't 'auto win' in CQC but they should in a 1v1 if both players are equally skilled and it is a straight up shoot out. Why you might ask? Because we suck in every other situation. Mini Heavies are an exception to this but that is due to their increased speed and therefore more versatile role, the Gal assault can be seen in the same light, they are more versatile than a Heavy. It would make no sense for the Gal Assault to equal the Heavies CQC ability in certain situations AND still have better speed and equipment. With the nerfs to all other light weapons the HMG should get a reduced range, still king of CQC but really limiting them to only this role which makes the Heavy very situational since the majority of Public maps are large open ground areas. Yes they usually have a compound but quite often it is off to the side with no focus of action going on there. For the true Heavies ,who have spent the vast majority of their SP on the Heavy w HMG/Forge set up, this is really frustrating to have your class made redundant if you decide to stay true with its original intent. Referring to the problem with not being able to kill Heavies with one RE.... use 2, that is why you have multiple. Also if a Heavy is hit by an RE and survives + given 5 minutes to rep with without being shot after capturing the point then that means you set up a really bad defense, it doesn't mean the Heavy is OP. Don't forget Heavies are also getting the Grenade nerf, add that to having no equipment slots means with out regular resupply from teammates Heavies can't effectively clear out areas of RE's and other equipment like every other suit can. FYI I'm a long time Heavy w/HMG only vet (only scrubs use RR anyways... Regarless of suit ), we've been screwed by CCP long before any assault / light weapon user was and it is nice to see CCP has finally given us some love after many month AR514/Assault514/Logi514 etc but I agree CCP has shown us a bit too much love with 1.8 but this means balancing things not just the lazy way of outright nerfing, look how that turned out for the MD. Too many people don't bother thinking of how to solve a problem and instead just want to make it go away. This mentality is why after so long playing this game we are still dealing with such basic problems.
Chibi Andy Forsaken Immortals Top Men. 1074	Posted - 2014.03.18 11:40:00 - [84] - Quote Rums McCuUladh wrote: Heavies and light weapons... Nerf their ability to use the weapons effectively. Problem solved for FOTM heavy scrubs! Heavies w/HMG need a role and it is CQC king, no they shouldn't 'auto win' in CQC but they should in a 1v1 if both players are equally skilled and it is a straight up shoot out. Why you might ask? Because we suck in every other situation. Mini Heavies are an exception to this but that is due to their increased speed and therefore more versatile role, the Gal assault can be seen in the same light, they are more versatile than a Heavy. It would make no sense for the Gal Assault to equal the Heavies CQC ability in certain situations AND still have better speed and equipment. With the nerfs to all other light weapons the HMG should get a reduced range, still king of CQC but really limiting them to only this role which makes the Heavy very situational since the majority of Public maps are large open ground areas. Yes they usually have a compound but quite often it is off to the side with no focus of action going on there. For the true Heavies ,who have spent the vast majority of their SP on the Heavy w HMG/Forge set up, this is really frustrating to have your class made redundant if you decide to stay true with its original intent. Referring to the problem with not being able to kill Heavies with one RE.... use 2, that is why you have multiple. Also if a Heavy is hit by an RE and survives + given 5 minutes to rep with without being shot after capturing the point then that means you set up a really bad defense, it doesn't mean the Heavy is OP. Don't forget Heavies are also getting the Grenade nerf, add that to having no equipment slots means with out regular resupply from teammates Heavies can't effectively clear out areas of RE's and other equipment like every other suit can. FYI I'm a long time Heavy w/HMG only vet (only scrubs use RR anyways... Regarless of suit ), we've been screwed by CCP long before any assault / light weapon user was and it is nice to see CCP has finally given us some love after many month AR514/Assault514/Logi514 etc but I agree CCP has shown us a bit too much love with 1.8 but this means balancing things not just the lazy way of outright nerfing, look how that turned out for the MD. Too many people don't bother thinking of how to solve a problem and instead just want to make it go away. This mentality is why after so long playing this game we are still dealing with such basic problems. long ass wall of white text but us heavies all know that the reason people want our HMG nerfed is so that they can beat us 1vs1, they don't like the fact that our HMG can win in CQC and so wants the dmg nerfed. pretty much the usual pattern, medium frame users keep getting killed by X weapon and so they all band up together wanting the nerf hammer on X weapon. YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED!!! sç+a¦át¢èa¦á)sç+ (pâÄa¦át¢èa¦á)pâÄs+íGö+GöüGö+
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5264	Posted - 2014.03.18 12:54:00 - [85] - Quote Rums McCuUladh wrote: Because we suck in every other situation. Save for AV, in which the Sentinel shines where all others fall dramatically short. Chibi Andy wrote: long ass wall of white text but us heavies all know that the reason people want our HMG nerfed is so that they can beat us 1vs1, they don't like the fact that our HMG can win in CQC and so wants the dmg nerfed. pretty much the usual pattern, medium frame users keep getting killed by X weapon and so they all band up together wanting the nerf hammer on X weapon. If you want to believe that that's the way it is, be my guest. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Chibi Andy Forsaken Immortals Top Men. 1075	Posted - 2014.03.18 13:02:00 - [86] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: If you want to believe that that's the way it is, be my guest. Whatever helps you sleep at night. just saying what im seeing at the moment, and it seems like this is the trend. but hey we all have our differences, you're for the nerf and us heavies are against the nerf. only CCP can decide whether they want to nerf it or not. YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED!!! sç+a¦át¢èa¦á)sç+ (pâÄa¦át¢èa¦á)pâÄs+íGö+GöüGö+
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5265	Posted - 2014.03.18 13:05:00 - [87] - Quote Chibi Andy wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: If you want to believe that that's the way it is, be my guest. Whatever helps you sleep at night. just saying what im seeing at the moment, and it seems like this is the trend. but hey we all have our differences, you're for the nerf and us heavies are against the nerf. only CCP can decide whether they want to nerf it or not. Thank you for assuming what I'm for. I'll be sure to go to you the next time I've a concern over an analytical stand-point that I'm indecisive about. You can be my adviser for such things. Specifically, those things. Now, away with you - I've other matters to attend to that do not require your expertise Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 5842	Posted - 2014.03.18 13:09:00 - [88] - Quote Kekklian Noobatronic wrote: Tell someone it should take multiple people to take down a single person in a tank, and everyone losses their minds. Tell someone they should lose to a single heavy within 20m, and everyone loses their minds. Fixed. AV > HAV > INF > AV \| Not: HAV > AV GëÑ INF [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Oxskull Duncarino 0uter.Heaven 495	Posted - 2014.03.18 13:15:00 - [89] - Quote Atiim wrote: Kekklian Noobatronic wrote: Tell someone it should take multiple people to take down a single person in a tank, and everyone losses their minds. Tell someone they should lose to a single heavy within 20m, and everyone loses their minds. Fixed. Lol. Poor auld Kekklian mustn't have been following the forums to much.
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 982	Posted - 2014.03.18 13:32:00 - [90] - Quote Chibi Andy wrote: Rums McCuUladh wrote: Heavies and light weapons... Nerf their ability to use the weapons effectively. Problem solved for FOTM heavy scrubs! Heavies w/HMG need a role and it is CQC king, no they shouldn't 'auto win' in CQC but they should in a 1v1 if both players are equally skilled and it is a straight up shoot out. Why you might ask? Because we suck in every other situation. Mini Heavies are an exception to this but that is due to their increased speed and therefore more versatile role, the Gal assault can be seen in the same light, they are more versatile than a Heavy. It would make no sense for the Gal Assault to equal the Heavies CQC ability in certain situations AND still have better speed and equipment. With the nerfs to all other light weapons the HMG should get a reduced range, still king of CQC but really limiting them to only this role which makes the Heavy very situational since the majority of Public maps are large open ground areas. Yes they usually have a compound but quite often it is off to the side with no focus of action going on there. For the true Heavies ,who have spent the vast majority of their SP on the Heavy w HMG/Forge set up, this is really frustrating to have your class made redundant if you decide to stay true with its original intent. Referring to the problem with not being able to kill Heavies with one RE.... use 2, that is why you have multiple. Also if a Heavy is hit by an RE and survives + given 5 minutes to rep with without being shot after capturing the point then that means you set up a really bad defense, it doesn't mean the Heavy is OP. Don't forget Heavies are also getting the Grenade nerf, add that to having no equipment slots means with out regular resupply from teammates Heavies can't effectively clear out areas of RE's and other equipment like every other suit can. FYI I'm a long time Heavy w/HMG only vet (only scrubs use RR anyways... Regarless of suit ), we've been screwed by CCP long before any assault / light weapon user was and it is nice to see CCP has finally given us some love after many month AR514/Assault514/Logi514 etc but I agree CCP has shown us a bit too much love with 1.8 but this means balancing things not just the lazy way of outright nerfing, look how that turned out for the MD. Too many people don't bother thinking of how to solve a problem and instead just want to make it go away. This mentality is why after so long playing this game we are still dealing with such basic problems. long ass wall of white text but us heavies all know that the reason people want our HMG nerfed is so that they can beat us 1vs1, they don't like the fact that our HMG can win in CQC and so wants the dmg nerfed. pretty much the usual pattern, medium frame users keep getting killed by X weapon and so they all band up together wanting the nerf hammer on X weapon. Why shouldn't a heavy be able to be bested in 1 v 1? You're in a dropsuit I'm in a drop suit. You're proto suit costs just over 57,000 ISK before adding weapons and mods and so does mine. You have the advantage of double the EHP of everybody I have the advantage of speed. Oh but wait, whats that, you can turn and strafe about as fast as I can and can insta-pop out of a LAV and mow me down before I can react. Well at least I can out range you...oh what you have a RR too. Well looks like I am dead again. Double hit points and 3 resistances with really the only draw back you can't overcome your dependence on others for ammo. Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.

zzZaXxx The Phoenix Federation 240	Posted - 2014.03.18 13:36:00 - [91] - Quote In CQC... HMG > AR AR > Other rifles SG scout can own all in CQC with skill/cover/dampening/scanner nerf/flux Other rifles > HMG when maintaining range/flanking It generally will take more than one gun to take down a heavy holding a point, but it has nothing to do with teamwork. Once you know where the heavy is and start picking away at it others in the area will naturally join in until it goes down. That's the heavy's weakness. It can't pick its battles. If it tries to retreat to a better position it'll just get shot in the back. If it tries to flank a position it'll find a whole new situation when it gets there. That's exactly where assaults shine. A squad of assaults will generally overpower a squad of heavies due to being able to pin them down, predict their behavior, and flank them.
Scalesdini BlackWater Liquidations INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 368	Posted - 2014.03.18 13:43:00 - [92] - Quote Christ you medium frames are stupid, whiny poofters. HMG is not OP in 1.7, it will not be OP in 1.8. Sentinels are not going to be OP in 1.8. This is not Zerg 514. Learn2tactics. Amadi I'm going to kick you so hard you get a fatal error again for posting a **** thread like this.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 5843	Posted - 2014.03.18 13:47:00 - [93] - Quote Scalesdini wrote: Grog no like logic Grog call man stupid Grog hit man Grog Smart Beats chest AV > HAV > INF > AV \| Not: HAV > AV GëÑ INF [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Hollow M Ling Pro Hic Immortalis 39	Posted - 2014.03.18 14:03:00 - [94] - Quote Welp I haven't been on these forums in months and people want the HMG nerfed again....Fine looks like in 1.8 I'll give my Heavy an RR. If all us Heavies don't use the HMG in 1.8 it can't get called op so it can't get nerfed
Oxskull Duncarino 0uter.Heaven 496	Posted - 2014.03.18 14:08:00 - [95] - Quote Scalesdini wrote: Christ you medium frames are stupid, whiny poofters. HMG is not OP in 1.7, it will not be OP in 1.8. Sentinels are not going to be OP in 1.8. This is not Zerg 514. Learn2tactics. Amadi I'm going to kick you so hard you get a fatal error again for posting a **** thread like this. Your post is a total fail. Yes, the heavy HMG combo is not OP now, it is in an extremely nicely balanced position. But, on paper the 1.8 HMG heavy is getting a dose load of resistances with no HMG damage reduction while nearly all other light weapons are getting a reduction. The complex damage reduction is reducing the HMG's damage, but the resistances more than cancel that out, so there is a valid concern over them becoming OP post 1.8. I'm very much in the camp of wait and see as we haven't got all the change details, and aswell, until we actually get to play 1.8 we can't be sure. The fear of having nearly entire teams made up of heavies post 1.8 is not an issue yet for me as most Scimish maps only have one or two sockets that heavies can lock done, with mediums etc. being able to control the other points. A few sockets that are in Dom and Tankbush will be a different story, but again, we won't now exactly how it will work until we get to dig into 1.8.
Oxskull Duncarino 0uter.Heaven 496	Posted - 2014.03.18 14:11:00 - [96] - Quote Hollow M Ling wrote: Welp I haven't been on these forums in months and people want the HMG nerfed again....Fine looks like in 1.8 I'll give my Heavy an RR. If all us Heavies don't use the HMG in 1.8 it can't get called op so it can't get nerfed You're late to the party with your Railrifle heavy, but there's a big group of them there already to welcome you to the fold. I'll welcome you with my HMG when ya step just a bit closer
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 759	Posted - 2014.03.18 14:12:00 - [97] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: In CQC... HMG > AR AR > Other rifles SG scout can own all in CQC with skill/cover/dampening/scanner nerf/flux Other rifles > HMG when maintaining range/flanking It generally will take more than one gun to take down a heavy holding a point, but it has nothing to do with teamwork. Once you know where the heavy is and start picking away at it others in the area will naturally join in until it goes down. That's the heavy's weakness. It can't pick its battles. If it tries to retreat to a better position it'll just get shot in the back. If it tries to flank a position it'll find a whole new situation when it gets there. That's exactly where assaults shine. A squad of assaults will generally overpower a squad of heavies due to being able to pin them down, predict their behavior, and flank them. HMG > AR = true thats now the case and I don't really see the relative buff for the HMG necessary AR > Other rifles = you must clearly have a different AR. Its more: Other rifles > AR SG scout can own all in CQC = this is tricky unless you have superior gun game or get clearly the drop on an enemy the SG sucks. HD issues and a skill that makes SG use harder aren't helping the same is for the relative low damage. The SG is barely able to OHK anything besides scout suits for an untanked heavy you need at least three shots (at least 4 for a highly tanked heavy, thats plenty of time to kill a scout, for a slightly tanked medium suit you will need two shots (for a heavy tanked med frame three as well)
Hollow M Ling Pro Hic Immortalis 40	Posted - 2014.03.18 14:18:00 - [98] - Quote Oxskull Duncarino wrote: Hollow M Ling wrote: Welp I haven't been on these forums in months and people want the HMG nerfed again....Fine looks like in 1.8 I'll give my Heavy an RR. If all us Heavies don't use the HMG in 1.8 it can't get called op so it can't get nerfed You're late to the party with your Railrifle heavy, but there's a big group of them there already to welcome you to the fold. I'll welcome you with my HMG when ya step just a bit closer Oh sure, but first can you just wait for me behind this supply depo I need to pick up an ol' friend
Oxskull Duncarino 0uter.Heaven 497	Posted - 2014.03.18 14:28:00 - [99] - Quote Hollow M Ling wrote: Oxskull Duncarino wrote: Hollow M Ling wrote: Welp I haven't been on these forums in months and people want the HMG nerfed again....Fine looks like in 1.8 I'll give my Heavy an RR. If all us Heavies don't use the HMG in 1.8 it can't get called op so it can't get nerfed You're late to the party with your Railrifle heavy, but there's a big group of them there already to welcome you to the fold. I'll welcome you with my HMG when ya step just a bit closer Oh sure, but first can you just wait for me behind this supply depo I need to pick up an ol' friend Nay a bother, but ya might miss me when ya come back due to my rapid switch to my cloaked scout
noob cavman Expert Intervention Caldari State 807	Posted - 2014.03.18 14:31:00 - [100] - Quote Oxskull Duncarino wrote: Hollow M Ling wrote: Oxskull Duncarino wrote: Hollow M Ling wrote: Welp I haven't been on these forums in months and people want the HMG nerfed again....Fine looks like in 1.8 I'll give my Heavy an RR. If all us Heavies don't use the HMG in 1.8 it can't get called op so it can't get nerfed You're late to the party with your Railrifle heavy, but there's a big group of them there already to welcome you to the fold. I'll welcome you with my HMG when ya step just a bit closer Oh sure, but first can you just wait for me behind this supply depo I need to pick up an ol' friend Nay a bother, but ya might miss me when ya come back due to my rapid switch to my cloaked scout your not ment to be skinny ox XD I want to be a caveman! Ccp: DENIED YOU DRUNK British ninja cowboy scout, logi, heavy

Hollow M Ling Pro Hic Immortalis 41	Posted - 2014.03.18 14:33:00 - [101] - Quote Oxskull Duncarino wrote: Hollow M Ling wrote: Oxskull Duncarino wrote: Hollow M Ling wrote: Welp I haven't been on these forums in months and people want the HMG nerfed again....Fine looks like in 1.8 I'll give my Heavy an RR. If all us Heavies don't use the HMG in 1.8 it can't get called op so it can't get nerfed You're late to the party with your Railrifle heavy, but there's a big group of them there already to welcome you to the fold. I'll welcome you with my HMG when ya step just a bit closer Oh sure, but first can you just wait for me behind this supply depo I need to pick up an ol' friend Nay a bother, but ya might miss me when ya come back due to my rapid switch to my cloaked scout Sure it sounds like it will make a fun game of catch, oh I got a flux grenade we can use as a ball
Oxskull Duncarino 0uter.Heaven 498	Posted - 2014.03.18 14:41:00 - [102] - Quote noob cavman wrote: Oxskull Duncarino wrote: Hollow M Ling wrote: Oxskull Duncarino wrote: Hollow M Ling wrote: Welp I haven't been on these forums in months and people want the HMG nerfed again....Fine looks like in 1.8 I'll give my Heavy an RR. If all us Heavies don't use the HMG in 1.8 it can't get called op so it can't get nerfed You're late to the party with your Railrifle heavy, but there's a big group of them there already to welcome you to the fold. I'll welcome you with my HMG when ya step just a bit closer Oh sure, but first can you just wait for me behind this supply depo I need to pick up an ol' friend Nay a bother, but ya might miss me when ya come back due to my rapid switch to my cloaked scout your not ment to be skinny ox XD What? Have ya not seen the Gal heavy's head? The shine coming off that forehead will be my new secret weapon. I'll be flanking a group to have the sun in my face when I attack, and they'll be blinded by the the glorious rays off my headbutt machine. Praise the sun Edit - Damn, I read shiny rather than skinny. ANyhow, with the distance I've run in the last 18 months I'm so thin I've been rattling around in my fat suit for two long. Time to get something more snug
Oxskull Duncarino 0uter.Heaven 498	Posted - 2014.03.18 14:42:00 - [103] - Quote Hollow M Ling wrote: Oxskull Duncarino wrote: Hollow M Ling wrote: Oxskull Duncarino wrote: Hollow M Ling wrote: Welp I haven't been on these forums in months and people want the HMG nerfed again....Fine looks like in 1.8 I'll give my Heavy an RR. If all us Heavies don't use the HMG in 1.8 it can't get called op so it can't get nerfed You're late to the party with your Railrifle heavy, but there's a big group of them there already to welcome you to the fold. I'll welcome you with my HMG when ya step just a bit closer Oh sure, but first can you just wait for me behind this supply depo I need to pick up an ol' friend Nay a bother, but ya might miss me when ya come back due to my rapid switch to my cloaked scout Sure it sounds like it will make a fun game of catch, oh I got a flux grenade we can use as a ball Lol, how about a plasma ball instead. Fluxes are so yesterday
noob cavman Expert Intervention Caldari State 810	Posted - 2014.03.18 14:43:00 - [104] - Quote Your back looks like a glory hole collection brah! Im gonna die thanks to laughing to much at that back! I want to be a caveman! Ccp: DENIED YOU DRUNK British ninja cowboy scout, logi, heavy
Oxskull Duncarino 0uter.Heaven 498	Posted - 2014.03.18 14:46:00 - [105] - Quote noob cavman wrote: Your back looks like a glory hole collection brah! Im gonna die thanks to laughing to much at that back! Lol, I want prox chat so I can get some warning from your giggling before ya detonate a quad remote stack. I edited my last post by the way. My reading comprehension sucked.
SPESHULz The Southern Legion 35	Posted - 2014.03.18 14:49:00 - [106] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: If point defense is all Sentinels could do...fine, but lets face the facts people have been using LAVs and other means to get around the heavy role forever and make it basically the most powerful infantry suit off an on since closed beta. Thus we have the cycle of heavy nerfs and buffs. lol heavies cant get into lavs or havs cause they are to fat would be brilliant and prevent hmgs jumping out to kill vulnerable infantry unfairly Blood flows. Death comes. War rages. Maths is OP. It is all those numbers that kills you. Forum Warrior lvl 0.02
noob cavman Expert Intervention Caldari State 811	Posted - 2014.03.18 14:51:00 - [107] - Quote Oxskull Duncarino wrote: noob cavman wrote: Your back looks like a glory hole collection brah! Im gonna die thanks to laughing to much at that back! Lol, I want prox chat so I can get some warning from your giggling before ya detonate a quad remote stack. I edited my last post by the way. My reading comprehension sucked. With my shotty being rof nerfed(?) Im just gonna stab then bolt pistol. I want to be a caveman! Ccp: DENIED YOU DRUNK British ninja cowboy scout, logi, heavy
Jastad D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 634	Posted - 2014.03.18 14:55:00 - [108] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: How would you counter 16 heavies? Grab the high ground and KILL THEM. 3d Map are 3d for a reason. and watch them spawn in base and lose all the letters. Amarr SCR user. Believe in the FORGE, young padawans C'èSoloDoloreSuCharlie
ReGnYuM Escrow Removal and Acquisition 2505	Posted - 2014.03.18 14:55:00 - [109] - Quote TBH... CCP really needs to keep a close eye on the Heavy and the HMG in 1.8 Current 1.7: Unless you're a heavy yourself, you should never engage a heavy in 1v1 duel (How it should be IMO). However, if you see a heavy with its back exposed , then by all means go for it. 1.8 Expectulation I was already worried about the resist, but the damage mod/ rifle nerf is just too much. Furthermore, the HMG is already a powerful force to be reckoned with. I just can't see how the heavy role will not be broken in 1.8 lol. My SP GAP carries me.
Oxskull Duncarino 0uter.Heaven 498	Posted - 2014.03.18 14:57:00 - [110] - Quote SPESHULz wrote: Zahle Undt wrote: If point defense is all Sentinels could do...fine, but lets face the facts people have been using LAVs and other means to get around the heavy role forever and make it basically the most powerful infantry suit off an on since closed beta. Thus we have the cycle of heavy nerfs and buffs. lol heavies cant get into lavs or havs cause they are to fat would be brilliant and prevent hmgs jumping out to kill vulnerable infantry unfairly I'm happy with the LAVs and heavies, and honestly, it's not because I'm a heavy and am a bit addicted to anything that helps me move faster than a waddle For dropships and HAVs I'd love if only light suits were able to pilot them. The same concept as most armed forces where pilots need to be within certain size parameters to suit the vehicle design. Since we are all genetically designed for our roles, making a pilot skinny as feck so as to allow more space for the vehicle's gear sounds good.

ReGnYuM Escrow Removal and Acquisition 2509	Posted - 2014.03.18 15:01:00 - [111] - Quote Jastad wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: How would you counter 16 heavies? Grab the high ground and KILL THEM. 3d Map are 3d for a reason. and watch them spawn in base and lose all the letters. Classic example of a what is wrong with General Discussion and 90% of posters that participate in. When you think balance, you think Pubs. Now before you post again think of these three critical things: 1. Objective based game modes 2. Point defense 3. What is the Heavies role in Dust 514? My SP GAP carries me.
Oxskull Duncarino 0uter.Heaven 498	Posted - 2014.03.18 15:03:00 - [112] - Quote ReGnYuM wrote: TBH... CCP really needs to keep a close eye on the Heavy and the HMG in 1.8 Current 1.7: Unless you're a heavy yourself, you should never engage a heavy in 1v1 duel (How it should be IMO). However, if you see a heavy with its back exposed , then by all means go for it. 1.8 Expectulation I was already worried about the resist, but the damage mod/ rifle nerf is just too much. Furthermore, the HMG is already a powerful force to be reckoned with. I just can't see how the heavy role will not be broken in 1.8 lol. Yeh, hopefully if there is an issue they'll step up with changes fast. Lol, what am I saying. On the thing of engaging a heavy in optimal only if you're a heavy I find it too black and white. It's the same as HAVs. Unless the player is an idiot they should never engage a HAV/heavy in their optimal face to face, as the HAV/heavy should always win unless they suck. But there is nothing wrong with engaging to their side or back and get those headshots in before taking cover and repositioning and/or allowing somebody else to blindside them.
SPESHULz The Southern Legion 35	Posted - 2014.03.18 15:04:00 - [113] - Quote Im a heavy to. I just love being called fat and then eating everything with hmg. If we cant jump over the 20cm ledges how are we going to climb into a lav. Blood flows. Death comes. War rages. Maths is OP. It is all those numbers that kills you. Forum Warrior lvl 0.02
Oxskull Duncarino 0uter.Heaven 498	Posted - 2014.03.18 15:08:00 - [114] - Quote noob cavman wrote: Oxskull Duncarino wrote: noob cavman wrote: Your back looks like a glory hole collection brah! Im gonna die thanks to laughing to much at that back! Lol, I want prox chat so I can get some warning from your giggling before ya detonate a quad remote stack. I edited my last post by the way. My reading comprehension sucked. With my shotty being rof nerfed(?) Im just gonna stab then bolt pistol. I'm still unconvinced that the prof of the SG is getting changed as I haven't seen anything to say so from CCP. All that has been said is that damage that used to be applied across the board to all damage types due to prof was getting changed to a single damage type aside from nova knives. Since the SG is the only one with a different prof. and I'm presuming/hoping it'll be left as is, the same as is. I actually want the shotgun to stay as nasty as it is, even if it does mean more deaths for me
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 5848	Posted - 2014.03.18 15:11:00 - [115] - Quote Jastad wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: How would you counter 16 heavies? Grab the high ground and KILL THEM. 3d Map are 3d for a reason. and watch them spawn in base and lose all the letters. So you expect me to believe that a team with 16 heavies won't carry at least 1 Forge Gun to prevent people from grabbing the high ground? AV > HAV > INF > AV \| Not: HAV > AV GëÑ INF [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
calisk galern BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 2172	Posted - 2014.03.18 15:12:00 - [116] - Quote http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QM1eTAwOYc trailer for 1.8
Oxskull Duncarino 0uter.Heaven 498	Posted - 2014.03.18 15:27:00 - [117] - Quote Atiim wrote: Jastad wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: How would you counter 16 heavies? Grab the high ground and KILL THEM. 3d Map are 3d for a reason. and watch them spawn in base and lose all the letters. So you expect me to believe that a team with 16 heavies won't carry at least 1 Forge Gun to prevent people from grabbing the high ground? I think that too many people that used a forge at sometime for AP were to reliant on splash and have never gotten to experience the pleasure of proper direct fire Forge gunning poor little infantry into oblivion. With a bit of patience to get a target to settle for a second, seeing that forge shot pound them into a red smear is sublime I don't do on my main alot as I prefer to get close with my HMG, but I do it alot on my alts as it's more easily accesable with low SP. As to the potential 16 heavy red berry team, there are only a few instances where they would have control. A few Sirm and Dom map layouts would be an issue, but in the most part there are null cannons to suit all styles. And if people have a solid core then they should have a basic HMG heavy setup to help with such scenarios. And if it's a bunch of high spec heavies with a map that suits them with only basics/nothing on your side, well, tough luck. People have got to accept that in the randomness of pubs we'll have some combos will always beat others. PC and stacked FW will be the proper litmus test though. Fun times ahead.
alten hilt DUST University Ivy League 106	Posted - 2014.03.18 16:11:00 - [118] - Quote Oxskull Duncarino wrote: SPESHULz wrote: Zahle Undt wrote: If point defense is all Sentinels could do...fine, but lets face the facts people have been using LAVs and other means to get around the heavy role forever and make it basically the most powerful infantry suit off an on since closed beta. Thus we have the cycle of heavy nerfs and buffs. lol heavies cant get into lavs or havs cause they are to fat would be brilliant and prevent hmgs jumping out to kill vulnerable infantry unfairly I'm happy with the LAVs and heavies, and honestly, it's not because I'm a heavy and am a bit addicted to anything that helps me move faster than a waddle For dropships and HAVs I'd love if only light suits were able to pilot them. The same concept as most armed forces where pilots need to be within certain size parameters to suit the vehicle design. Since we are all genetically designed for our roles, making a pilot skinny as feck so as to allow more space for the vehicle's gear sounds good. I would be fine with heavies and LAV's if there was an enter/exit animation that accounted for size. The instant pop in and pop out is BS. Ever tried bailing from a hummer in full battle rattle?
Rusty Shallows 1153	Posted - 2014.03.18 21:08:00 - [119] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: Damage mods are still getting nerfed. And proficiency. You seriously can't do anything with just a HMG. I want to say 99% of heavies use damage mods. Shouldn't be that bad. I never use damage mods yet I instakill Just admit it Jerrmy you have mad-skillZ. Shayz isn't kidding you. A complex damage mod is a required fitting for anyone taking the Fatty Path. We had players go to the middle of the Basic Heavy Frames so they could fit two. The Advanced Sentinel Frame was les effective than the Basic Frame version, let that one sink in for a minute. To think some people called me crazy for never spending SP in Dropsuit Command. Who's laughing now? Bwahahahhahaha. Here, have some candy and a Like. :-) Forums > Game
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5278	Posted - 2014.03.18 22:32:00 - [120] - Quote Scalesdini wrote: Christ you medium frames are stupid, whiny poofters. HMG is not OP in 1.7, it will not be OP in 1.8. Sentinels are not going to be OP in 1.8. This is not Zerg 514. Learn2tactics. Amadi I'm going to kick you so hard you get a fatal error again for posting a ** thread like this. I never said it was -going- to be OP, I said that I was worried about it. In big ole letters right in the subject line and title text of the thread. In fact, by default, it's the very first thing you read before even seeing the rest of the thread. Worry does not constitute a definitive take. I'm going to be watching everything very very closely but logic would dictate that what is fine now is going to be a problem later when changes are made. Even you cannot deny this. SPESHULz wrote:** Im a heavy to. I just love being called fat and then eating everything with hmg. If we cant jump over the 20cm ledges how are we going to climb into a lav. So much logic it honestly hurts EDIT: Addendum, calling it now but we'll probably see a resurgence of the Heavy/Commando black screen at supply depots/spawning. Will repost this as a new thread indicating that I, in fact, called it, if it happens. If it doesn't, consider yourselves blessed that I set myself up for manifest destiny when it did not occur. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182

Oxskull Duncarino 0uter.Heaven 499	Posted - 2014.03.19 01:28:00 - [121] - Quote alten hilt wrote: Oxskull Duncarino wrote: SPESHULz wrote: Zahle Undt wrote: If point defense is all Sentinels could do...fine, but lets face the facts people have been using LAVs and other means to get around the heavy role forever and make it basically the most powerful infantry suit off an on since closed beta. Thus we have the cycle of heavy nerfs and buffs. lol heavies cant get into lavs or havs cause they are to fat would be brilliant and prevent hmgs jumping out to kill vulnerable infantry unfairly I'm happy with the LAVs and heavies, and honestly, it's not because I'm a heavy and am a bit addicted to anything that helps me move faster than a waddle For dropships and HAVs I'd love if only light suits were able to pilot them. The same concept as most armed forces where pilots need to be within certain size parameters to suit the vehicle design. Since we are all genetically designed for our roles, making a pilot skinny as feck so as to allow more space for the vehicle's gear sounds good. I would be fine with heavies and LAV's if there was an enter/exit animation that accounted for size. The instant pop in and pop out is BS. Ever tried bailing from a hummer in full battle rattle? I'm in full agreement with ya. I've never had the experience of bailing in full battle gear but it's not had to imagine that it's not a case of one second being happily ass planted in a seat and next second happily standing on two feet combat read. It's one of many changes that in my view need immediate implementation.
Scalesdini BlackWater Liquidations INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 371	Posted - 2014.03.19 02:09:00 - [122] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Scalesdini wrote: Christ you medium frames are stupid, whiny poofters. HMG is not OP in 1.7, it will not be OP in 1.8. Sentinels are not going to be OP in 1.8. This is not Zerg 514. Learn2tactics. Amadi I'm going to kick you so hard you get a fatal error again for posting a ** thread like this. I never said it was -going- to be OP, I said that I was worried about it. In big ole letters right in the subject line and title text of the thread. In fact, by default, it's the very first thing you read before even seeing the rest of the thread. Worry does not constitute a definitive take. I'm going to be watching everything very very closely but logic would dictate that what is fine now is going to be a problem later when changes are made. Even you cannot deny this. SPESHULz wrote: Im a heavy to. I just love being called fat and then eating everything with hmg. If we cant jump over the 20cm ledges how are we going to climb into a lav. So much logic it honestly hurts EDIT: Addendum, calling it now but we'll probably see a resurgence of the Heavy/Commando black screen at supply depots/spawning. Will repost this as a new thread indicating that I, in fact, called it, if it happens. If it doesn't, consider yourselves blessed that I set myself up for manifest destiny when it did not occur. I know you didn't say that specifically, I'm talking about everyone else on the forums. You just gave them another soapbox to stand on and cry about how OP HMG/sentinels will be with this thread. HMG will not be OP for lots of reasons I've pointed out in the IRC channel and in other threads, and heavies are not going to be unkillable monsters because of resistances, but I guess I'll go over it all again... 15% resistance is for someone who has put millions of SP into one suit. You know what counters that? If you put millions of SP into the one gun they have 15% resistance to, id est: proficiency skill. You know what that's called? Balance. Further most of the resistances combat a weapon's strengths anyway, mostly just lowering it (Cal Sentinel - 15% shield resistance to blaster weapons, which do +20% to shields anyway, 10% to lasers which to +20% to shields, etc) and not negating it. Exceptions being Amarr and Gallente with projectile weapons, but again, prof V eliminates sentinel V resistance. Balanced. Why is HMG not getting a nerf? Because that DPS everyone likes to pretend can be applied in the real world can only be applied at shotgun range. At 20m, HMG cannot possibly apply 100% of paper DPS - barely more than half. At 30m, it's under half. People seem to like to ignore this part of HMG, probably because they don't use it and assume it's like their laser accurate ____ rifle which can hit with every shot with decent aim (or aim assist, something that is weaker on HMG than on rifles anyway - not that I give a single solitary **, it needs removed, but I digress...) but it isn't. That cone of fire that makes it so deadly at CQC also severely hampers its effectiveness at anything but CQC, even inside its own optimal it cannot apply 100% of its theoretical DPS. Tiny effective range, absurd falloff of damage between optimal and effective, massive dispersion - it's not doing the DPS people think except in close ranges, and if you're that close to the business end of an HMG, you're supposed to die. Learn2Flank. Here's another reason why I think HMG is not getting a nerf (aside from proficiency change): Light weapon heavy QQ. If the HMG is hands down the choice for heavies in 1.8, which it isn't in 1.7 with CR/RR being comparable in real world DPS but vastly outranging it, more heavies are going to be running HMG than light weapons. That means more heavies able to be countered simply by staying outside of their range and pewpewing them to death, more opportunities to catch them out in the open, etc. And less whining about heavies carrying light weapons! Win for everyone. I think heavies are going to be in a good place in 1.8. Sure, you can say I'm biased because I'm a heavy, but I'm pretty sure heavies are not going to be OP like people think. Good heavies who pick a suit to fit their playstyle best are going to be monsters like they are now, bad heavies are still going to be just as easy to kill, it might just take a half a second longer to do it, or require a different tactic in some situations, etc. Is forcing us to think a little more a bad thing? I say no.
LEHON Xeon Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 335	Posted - 2014.03.19 02:15:00 - [123] - Quote ReGnYuM wrote: TBH... CCP really needs to keep a close eye on the Heavy and the HMG in 1.8 Current 1.7: Unless you're a heavy yourself, you should never engage a heavy in 1v1 duel (How it should be IMO). However, if you see a heavy with its back exposed , then by all means go for it. 1.8 Expectulation I was already worried about the resist, but the damage mod/ rifle nerf is just too much. Furthermore, the HMG is already a powerful force to be reckoned with. I just can't see how the heavy role will not be broken in 1.8 lol. I take huge issue with these new resistance bonuses. First of all, they shouldn't be anywhere near as high as they are. Secondly I feel it should've been an either/or situation. Either heavies got the explosive resistance, OR the light weapon resistance based on race, not both. I think it's going to lead to a huge imbalance. It's a trap! In this patch we can't repel firepower of that magnitude! - Admiral Ackbar would say in ambush w Nyain San
Scalesdini BlackWater Liquidations INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 372	Posted - 2014.03.19 02:20:00 - [124] - Quote LEHON Xeon wrote: ReGnYuM wrote: TBH... CCP really needs to keep a close eye on the Heavy and the HMG in 1.8 Current 1.7: Unless you're a heavy yourself, you should never engage a heavy in 1v1 duel (How it should be IMO). However, if you see a heavy with its back exposed , then by all means go for it. 1.8 Expectulation I was already worried about the resist, but the damage mod/ rifle nerf is just too much. Furthermore, the HMG is already a powerful force to be reckoned with. I just can't see how the heavy role will not be broken in 1.8 lol. I take huge issue with these new resistance bonuses. First of all, they shouldn't be anywhere near as high as they are. Secondly I feel it should've been an either/or situation. Either heavies got the explosive resistance, OR the light weapon resistance based on race, not both. I think it's going to lead to a huge imbalance. Quote: 15% resistance is for someone who has put millions of SP into one suit. You know what counters that? If you put millions of SP into the one gun they have 15% resistance to, id est: proficiency skill. You know what that's called? Balance. Further most of the resistances combat a weapon's strengths anyway, mostly just lowering it (Cal Sentinel - 15% shield resistance to blaster weapons, which do +20% to shields anyway, 10% to lasers which to +20% to shields, etc) and not negating it. Exceptions being Amarr and Gallente with projectile weapons, but again, prof V eliminates sentinel V resistance. Balanced. "Oh noes the suit that's supposed to be tanky and take damage will be tanky and take damage! I take offense to this! I must be able to kill everything easily or it's OP!" - Medium AR 514 scrublord
LEHON Xeon Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 336	Posted - 2014.03.19 02:30:00 - [125] - Quote I can use insults and sound like an imbecile also without carrying out a normal discussion. Let me guess Scalesdini, you probably use fatsuits with RR as well because you can't fight in a medium or scout suit so you need the extra HP buffer. If you only use a HMG, I'd be amazed, but even with that, you still get an automatic built in "crutch" due to the HMG "sloth" effect when you hit people with it. Your argument is pointless. With the resistances, and sentinels having around 1200 armor alone, you can engage one from the side or behind and they'll still turn around and kill you. I wrote a large post on this under another thread using actual math, but I guess you probably couldn't comprehend that. When there's entire squads or teams using nearly all fatsuits for the resistance and HP reserves all camping an area or single objective, how do you think people are going to be able to get in there? They won't. I don't take an issue with HMG heavies. It's all these light weapon fatsuit scrubs I can't stand. It's a trap! In this patch we can't repel firepower of that magnitude! - Admiral Ackbar would say in ambush w Nyain San
Disturbingly Bored Forum Warfare 2050	Posted - 2014.03.19 02:34:00 - [126] - Quote I gotta disagree with you scales. HMG Sentinel is just about perfectly balanced in 1.7. And in 1.8 it's effectively getting a 9% DPS buff relative to rifles, a significant EHP buff if resistances align, and a huge buff to defense against the one reliable hard counter to Heavies: REs. I think it's all too much at once. I've been a dedicated HMG user through all the nerf buff cycles since 8/2012, and I'm worried this next patch will make us too damn powerful... Which means we'll be beaten to death with the nerf bat in 1.9 or the patch after that. I used to own the FAT GAT until this --> [ASCII Art removed - *draconian forum overlord* CCP Logibro]
jerrmy12 kahoalii 547	Posted - 2014.03.19 02:35:00 - [127] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: I gotta disagree with you scales. HMG Sentinel is just about perfectly balanced in 1.7. And in 1.8 it's effectively getting a 9% DPS buff relative to rifles, a significant EHP buff if resistances align, and a huge buff to defense against the one reliable hard counter to Heavies: REs. I think it's all too much at once. I've been a dedicated HMG user through all the nerf buff cycles since 8/2012, and I'm worried this next patch will make us too damn powerful... Which means we'll be beaten to death with the nerf bat in 1.9 or the patch after that. Only thing that needs tweaking is the hmg and amar heavy low alots, add one Closed beta vet Logi, Heavy, Python, Scout. Dark souls 2 new game plus.
Scalesdini BlackWater Liquidations INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 373	Posted - 2014.03.19 02:43:00 - [128] - Quote LEHON Xeon wrote: I can use insults and sound like an imbecile also without carrying out a normal discussion. Let me guess Scalesdini, you probably use fatsuits with RR as well because you can't fight in a medium or scout suit so you need the extra HP buffer. If you only use a HMG, I'd be amazed, but even with that, you still get an automatic built in "crutch" due to the HMG "sloth" effect when you hit people with it. Your argument is pointless. With the resistances, and sentinels having around 1200 armor alone, you can engage one from the side or behind and they'll still turn around and kill you. I wrote a large post on this under another thread using actual math, but I guess you probably couldn't comprehend that. When there's entire squads or teams using nearly all fatsuits for the resistance and HP reserves all camping an area or single objective, how do you think people are going to be able to get in there? They won't. I don't take an issue with HMG heavies. It's all these light weapon fatsuit scrubs I can't stand. Actually, I made a long, well thought out, articulate post on this page of this thread. As for me using RR? lol is all I have to say, I've used nothing but HMG since August 2012.
LEHON Xeon Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 336	Posted - 2014.03.19 02:45:00 - [129] - Quote Scalesdini wrote: LEHON Xeon wrote: I can use insults and sound like an imbecile also without carrying out a normal discussion. Let me guess Scalesdini, you probably use fatsuits with RR as well because you can't fight in a medium or scout suit so you need the extra HP buffer. If you only use a HMG, I'd be amazed, but even with that, you still get an automatic built in "crutch" due to the HMG "sloth" effect when you hit people with it. Your argument is pointless. With the resistances, and sentinels having around 1200 armor alone, you can engage one from the side or behind and they'll still turn around and kill you. I wrote a large post on this under another thread using actual math, but I guess you probably couldn't comprehend that. When there's entire squads or teams using nearly all fatsuits for the resistance and HP reserves all camping an area or single objective, how do you think people are going to be able to get in there? They won't. I don't take an issue with HMG heavies. It's all these light weapon fatsuit scrubs I can't stand. Actually, I made a long, well thought out, articulate post on this page of this thread. As for me using RR? lol is all I have to say, I've used nothing but HMG since August 2012. Well, if you use an HMG then I really don't have an issue with you. To me, the only thing I really want resolved with HMG is that massive slowdown effect. It's all these guys using long range weapons combined with the massive HP reserves and resistances that are going to cause the discrepancy. It's a trap! In this patch we can't repel firepower of that magnitude! - Admiral Ackbar would say in ambush w Nyain San
TunRa D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 523	Posted - 2014.03.19 02:48:00 - [130] - Quote I really want to quit this game because of the community, but I don't because I enjoy the game. I am torn! Thanks CCP Foxfour Likes received: 514

Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5281	Posted - 2014.03.19 02:58:00 - [131] - Quote Scalesdini wrote: 15% resistance is for someone who has put millions of SP into one suit. You know what counters that? If you put millions of SP into the one gun they have 15% resistance to, id est: proficiency skill. You know what that's called? Balance. Further most of the resistances combat a weapon's strengths anyway, mostly just lowering it (Cal Sentinel - 15% shield resistance to blaster weapons, which do +20% to shields anyway, 10% to lasers which to +20% to shields, etc) and not negating it. Exceptions being Amarr and Gallente with projectile weapons, but again, prof V eliminates sentinel V resistance. Balanced. Why is HMG not getting a nerf? Because that DPS everyone likes to pretend can be applied in the real world can only be applied at shotgun range. At 20m, HMG cannot possibly apply 100% of paper DPS - barely more than half. At 30m, it's under half. People seem to like to ignore this part of HMG, probably because they don't use it and assume it's like their laser accurate ____ rifle which can hit with every shot with decent aim (or aim assist, something that is weaker on HMG than on rifles anyway - not that I give a single solitary ****, it needs removed, but I digress...) but it isn't. That cone of fire that makes it so deadly at CQC also severely hampers its effectiveness at anything but CQC, even inside its own optimal it cannot apply 100% of its theoretical DPS. Tiny effective range, absurd falloff of damage between optimal and effective, massive dispersion - it's not doing the DPS people think except in close ranges, and if you're that close to the business end of an HMG, you're supposed to die. Learn2Flank. The problem I have with this is that it's arguably more SP investment to counter the resistances than to get them. If you're speccing into Sentinels, you're getting the bonus all the way up to level five but in order to counter that you'd have to invest not only in 'x' weapon operation 5, but also Proficiency 5. It's the aspect that it costs more to counter the suit that's already powerful without the necessity of having other skills involved. Probably not wording it the way I want to but I can't get on Dust 514 right now to do a comparison of SP investment between Racial Sentinel 5 and Weapon Proficiency 5. The next thing is the 'learn2flank' comment which... Not gonna lie, sort of rubs me the wrong way. Part of the argument that there's no viable CQC counter to the Heavy is that they turn just as fast as any other suit. Flanking is great but unless you can apply such massive damage as to outright kill them in less time than it takes them to turn around; there's an issue involved. First shot capabilities are always great but we're talking about a lot of damage coming back if they live through it. It has a lot to do with map design as well as some maps (in particular the new Gallente maps) offer complete aerial cover; so kiss OB/DS support goodbye. Some of those maps have one way in and one way out, which poses a pretty hefty problem in the hallway/corridor like structure of the building's design. I'm sure heavies love this because it's true point defense but it begs the question: How do you counter it? Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
jerrmy12 kahoalii 548	Posted - 2014.03.19 03:10:00 - [132] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Scalesdini wrote: 15% resistance is for someone who has put millions of SP into one suit. You know what counters that? If you put millions of SP into the one gun they have 15% resistance to, id est: proficiency skill. You know what that's called? Balance. Further most of the resistances combat a weapon's strengths anyway, mostly just lowering it (Cal Sentinel - 15% shield resistance to blaster weapons, which do +20% to shields anyway, 10% to lasers which to +20% to shields, etc) and not negating it. Exceptions being Amarr and Gallente with projectile weapons, but again, prof V eliminates sentinel V resistance. Balanced. Why is HMG not getting a nerf? Because that DPS everyone likes to pretend can be applied in the real world can only be applied at shotgun range. At 20m, HMG cannot possibly apply 100% of paper DPS - barely more than half. At 30m, it's under half. People seem to like to ignore this part of HMG, probably because they don't use it and assume it's like their laser accurate ____ rifle which can hit with every shot with decent aim (or aim assist, something that is weaker on HMG than on rifles anyway - not that I give a single solitary ****, it needs removed, but I digress...) but it isn't. That cone of fire that makes it so deadly at CQC also severely hampers its effectiveness at anything but CQC, even inside its own optimal it cannot apply 100% of its theoretical DPS. Tiny effective range, absurd falloff of damage between optimal and effective, massive dispersion - it's not doing the DPS people think except in close ranges, and if you're that close to the business end of an HMG, you're supposed to die. Learn2Flank. The problem I have with this is that it's arguably more SP investment to counter the resistances than to get them. If you're speccing into Sentinels, you're getting the bonus all the way up to level five but in order to counter that you'd have to invest not only in 'x' weapon operation 5, but also Proficiency 5. It's the aspect that it costs more to counter the suit that's already powerful without the necessity of having other skills involved. Probably not wording it the way I want to but I can't get on Dust 514 right now to do a comparison of SP investment between Racial Sentinel 5 and Weapon Proficiency 5. The next thing is the 'learn2flank' comment which... Not gonna lie, sort of rubs me the wrong way. Part of the argument that there's no viable CQC counter to the Heavy is that they turn just as fast as any other suit. Flanking is great but unless you can apply such massive damage as to outright kill them in less time than it takes them to turn around; there's an issue involved. First shot capabilities are always great but we're talking about a lot of damage coming back if they live through it. It has a lot to do with map design as well as some maps (in particular the new Gallente maps) offer complete aerial cover; so kiss OB/DS support goodbye. Some of those maps have one way in and one way out, which poses a pretty hefty problem in the hallway/corridor like structure of the building's design. I'm sure heavies love this because it's true point defense but it begs the question: How do you counter it? 3 mil sp vs 1.4 mil sp Closed beta vet Logi, Heavy, Python, Scout. Dark souls 2 new game plus.
Scalesdini BlackWater Liquidations INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 373	Posted - 2014.03.19 04:01:00 - [133] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: The problem I have with this is that it's arguably more SP investment to counter the resistances than to get them. If you're speccing into Sentinels, you're getting the bonus all the way up to level five but in order to counter that you'd have to invest not only in 'x' weapon operation 5, but also Proficiency 5. It's the aspect that it costs more to counter the suit that's already powerful without the necessity of having other skills involved. Probably not wording it the way I want to but I can't get on Dust 514 right now to do a comparison of SP investment between Racial Sentinel 5 and Weapon Proficiency 5. The next thing is the 'learn2flank' comment which... Not gonna lie, sort of rubs me the wrong way. Part of the argument that there's no viable CQC counter to the Heavy is that they turn just as fast as any other suit. Flanking is great but unless you can apply such massive damage as to outright kill them in less time than it takes them to turn around; there's an issue involved. First shot capabilities are always great but we're talking about a lot of damage coming back if they live through it. It has a lot to do with map design as well as some maps (in particular the new Gallente maps) offer complete aerial cover; so kiss OB/DS support goodbye. Some of those maps have one way in and one way out, which poses a pretty hefty problem in the hallway/corridor like structure of the building's design. I'm sure heavies love this because it's true point defense but it begs the question: How do you counter it? It takes 273,600sp to get heavy frame to lvl 3 to unlock sentinels, and a further 2,487,360sp to get proto sentinel. It takes 621,840sp to get (Light/Heavy/Sidearm) Weapon Operation V, 621,840sp to get (Specific Weapon) Operation V and a further 1,554,600sp to get Proficiency V. Now, no light/heavy/sidearm weapon requires ____ Operation V, but even if they did, that means it would take a grand total of 2,798,280sp to counter a sentinel's resistance, which costs 2,760,960sp to obtain. I'd say that's pretty fair, especially since light/heavy/sidearm weapon operation affect multiple weapons whereas heavy dropsuits skills only affect sentinels and commandos, and most people only run one or the other. Plus the L/H/S weapon op skill gives a bonus (3% CPU use reduction per level to weapon type), whereas basic heavy dropsuit skill gives none. As for the flanking part, if a shotgunner catches me from behind I'm toast 99 out of 100 times, by the time I turn around the second slug is in me and I'm nearly dead, unless I get lucky or the shotgunner is very bad it ends poorly for me. Same deal for rifles hitting me from outside my range before I see them, unless I'm standing next to cover, I'm toast. Heavies have enormous head hitboxes, people need to use that to their advantage. For the map issue, come on, there's only really 3 or 4 points that heavies truly shine on, and even then they're still very beatable. If there's heavies on both sides (as there should be), you use your own heavies to lead the charge in. Now that's not to say the only counter to heavies should be heavies, but you can't expect 4-5 heavies in a tight area like that to go down easily. Spam fluxes in, fire in MD, sneak in with cloaked shotgunners, send in your own heavies, etc. Sometimes it just takes a different approach for a situation than what we're used to doing. On skirmish maps, if there's 5 heavies camped on one point, switch your tactics up - stop going for that point, go and hack all the other points, force them into a situation you want to fight them in rather than the situation they want to fight you in. For dom, most of them are wide open, just kill them from range... for the one new dom map that isn't, get a DS and put uplinks on top of the cylinder where the point is and drop grenades/MD rounds down on their heads while you push in from both sides on the ground. And you can in fact drop an OB into that point, btw. And heavies suck at ambush, so there's that.
Lance 2ballzStrong SyNergy Gaming EoN. 4800	Posted - 2014.03.19 05:31:00 - [134] - Quote Chibi Andy wrote: well considering before the 10% dmg buff to the HMG, the HMG was just a giant BB gun that tickles the enemies armor. so technically the HMG is fine where it is now. unless of course everyone just wants a broken HMG so they can kill the heavies more easier. then you'll just see a surge of RR/CR/SCR heavies once the HMG is dead. VERY good point. People complain about heavies using RRs and CRs, but what do you think will happen when the HMG gets the nerf you're talking about? Heavies that used the HMG will slowly gravitate to the better weapons, which people QQ about because "HEAVIES NOT SUPPOSE TO BE ABLE TO USE ARs!!!! QQ" So heavies will dominate CQC... isn't that its job? Aren't you suppose to die if you turn a corner and bump into a heavy? No? Then yea, nerf the HMG, and make heavies as useless as they were a few updates ago... just that now they have a whole arsenal of light weapons to use To be fair, it might need a nerf considering the nerfs everything got, but knowing CCP... lol... heavies will be right back to Uprising 1.0 ( ._.) <('.'<) "There there Mr. Heavy, it's not your fault CCP doesn't care about you"
Operative 1171 Aajli Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1581	Posted - 2014.03.19 07:19:00 - [135] - Quote Only effective AI weapon n the game. When other heavy weapons are released expect a damage type nerf. Rommel, you magnificent bastard, I read your book!
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5288	Posted - 2014.03.19 07:41:00 - [136] - Quote Scalesdini wrote: It takes 273,600sp to get heavy frame to lvl 3 to unlock sentinels, and a further 2,487,360sp to get proto sentinel. It takes 621,840sp to get (Light/Heavy/Sidearm) Weapon Operation V, 621,840sp to get (Specific Weapon) Operation V and a further 1,554,600sp to get Proficiency V. Now, no light/heavy/sidearm weapon requires ____ Operation V, but even if they did, that means it would take a grand total of 2,798,280sp to counter a sentinel's resistance, which costs 2,760,960sp to obtain. I'd say that's pretty fair, especially since light/heavy/sidearm weapon operation affect multiple weapons whereas heavy dropsuits skills only affect sentinels and commandos, and most people only run one or the other. Plus the L/H/S weapon op skill gives a bonus (3% CPU use reduction per level to weapon type), whereas basic heavy dropsuit skill gives none. As for the flanking part, if a shotgunner catches me from behind I'm toast 99 out of 100 times, by the time I turn around the second slug is in me and I'm nearly dead, unless I get lucky or the shotgunner is very bad it ends poorly for me. Same deal for rifles hitting me from outside my range before I see them, unless I'm standing next to cover, I'm toast. Heavies have enormous head hitboxes, people need to use that to their advantage. For the map issue, come on, there's only really 3 or 4 points that heavies truly shine on, and even then they're still very beatable. If there's heavies on both sides (as there should be), you use your own heavies to lead the charge in. Now that's not to say the only counter to heavies should be heavies, but you can't expect 4-5 heavies in a tight area like that to go down easily. Spam fluxes in, fire in MD, sneak in with cloaked shotgunners, send in your own heavies, etc. Sometimes it just takes a different approach for a situation than what we're used to doing. On skirmish maps, if there's 5 heavies camped on one point, switch your tactics up - stop going for that point, go and hack all the other points, force them into a situation you want to fight them in rather than the situation they want to fight you in. For dom, most of them are wide open, just kill them from range... for the one new dom map that isn't, get a DS and put uplinks on top of the cylinder where the point is and drop grenades/MD rounds down on their heads while you push in from both sides on the ground. And you can in fact drop an OB into that point, btw. And heavies suck at ambush, so there's that. Bleh, I can't focus on this ** right now but I'll go ahead and try. Mind you it prolly ain't going to sound too crazy competent because I haven't analyzed it as thoroughly as I'd like. Right but that's just the one weapon - the Sentinel's bonus(es) apply to the entire lineup. I mean it's all well and good but I think it's sort of skewed to demand millions of SP as an effective counter for every weapon that could be used against the target. You've got a boatload more passive HP without the modules and just to get the weapon's base stats worth you have to go Prov 5 as the counter, which is sort of a downer because then you're boned against the other heavies. What if the weapon is just naturally under-powered? No amount of Prov 5 is going to help with that, unfortunately. To be more specific, there are only a handful of Projectile/Explosive weapons available for use against Armor Sentinels (Gallente/Amarr). I can't fall back on any of them, realistically, because Mass Drivers and Flaylocks are doing less damage than Prof 5 would ever help with due to the splash damage reduction. That leaves you with Combat Rifles and... Wouldn't you know it, HMGs. So your only legitimate option there is to spec into Combat Rifles to balance the scales. Shotguns will be receiving a hefty nerf as well so you're not going to have to worry about that. The damage focus on shields isn't going to help them with Gallente/Amarr heavies paired with the HMG as compared to it's [the shotgun] current RoF bonus, which are incidentally the innate problem as the Shotgun is, by default, a CQC weapon, putting it well within range of the HMG. It's not truly as necessary since neither of those Sentinels receive a reduction of damage to Blaster weapon but it's certainly not going to perform as well as it did before. But, I digress. This is all off-topic because my main concern is the HMG itself, not the sentinel. All speculation on other aspects of said heavy aside, my primary concern is that the HMG might be a bit overwhelming in 1.8 when compared to anything that could legitimately counter it. The rest I can more or less live with. Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:** VERY good point. People complain about heavies using RRs and CRs, but what do you think will happen when the HMG gets the nerf you're talking about? Heavies that used the HMG will slowly gravitate to the better weapons, which people QQ about because "HEAVIES NOT SUPPOSE TO BE ABLE TO USE ARs!!!! QQ" So heavies will dominate CQC... isn't that its job? Aren't you suppose to die if you turn a corner and bump into a heavy? No? Then yea, nerf the HMG, and make heavies as useless as they were a few updates ago... just that now they have a whole arsenal of light weapons to use To be fair, it might need a nerf considering the nerfs everything got, but knowing CCP... lol... heavies will be right back to Uprising 1.0 Same as above. This thread isn't about light weapon heavies. Heavies, by default (as they're the only ones who can use the HMG) but the thread is primarily about the weapon itself. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Disturbingly Bored Forum Warfare 2050	Posted - 2014.03.19 12:03:00 - [137] - Quote Lance 2ballzStrong wrote: To be fair, it might need a nerf considering the nerfs everything got, but knowing CCP... lol... heavies will be right back to Uprising 1.0 That nerf bat is my biggest fear, too, Lance. The HMG needs a ~9% ROF nerf to stay as powerful as it is in 1.7, no more and no less. As it is now, it's getting an effective buff compared to it's most frequent competition. I think if you listen carefully, people aren't saying "Nerf HMG because it's overpowered right now!" It isn't. It's pretty damn balanced right now. But if everything else is getting nerfed and HMG is left alone, that's effectively a buff, and HMG does NOT need a buff. I used to own the FAT GAT until this --> [ASCII Art removed - *draconian forum overlord* CCP Logibro]
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5293	Posted - 2014.03.19 12:27:00 - [138] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: Lance 2ballzStrong wrote: To be fair, it might need a nerf considering the nerfs everything got, but knowing CCP... lol... heavies will be right back to Uprising 1.0 That nerf bat is my biggest fear, too, Lance. The HMG needs a ~9% ROF nerf to stay as powerful as it is in 1.7, no more and no less. As it is now, it's getting an effective buff compared to it's most frequent competition. I think if you listen carefully, people aren't saying "Nerf HMG because it's overpowered right now!" It isn't. It's pretty damn balanced right now. But if everything else is getting nerfed and HMG is left alone, that's effectively a buff, and HMG does NOT need a buff. Well said. Part of my problem is that I talk too much but say too little Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 230	Posted - 2014.03.20 10:48:00 - [139] - Quote One thing everybody seems to forget when you talk about the splash damage resistance, is the 25% buff to Mass Driver damage. And that's to splash and direct damage. If you put that Mass Driver on a Minmatar commando suit, you'll end up with a 10% better MD towards heavies than now. You than can further increase the damage output towards armor, and you will damage grouped heavies all at once... This is definitely the way to go to fight entrenched heavys. The MD should also help to get rid of those pesky repping bumblebees... Im pretty sure that the Min commando is one of the keys to a successfull assault on enemy heavies. Mix that with gallente commandos/assaults with assault rifles and you should be very effective. Move in fast from all angles and you will take down even groups of heavies. Also, since all those heavies will likely have a lot of resistances towards projectile and rail rifles, the assault rifle will have a better role in the future. Maybe try the tac AR for a change, I've been running with some guys who used them very effectively just yesterday... (takes gungame though)... I will go heavy and counter heavy coming next build... It will be awesome! And just to further deepen my theory, there may be something in the works for the gallente commando... Halleluja! Breach Plasma cannon and Assault Plasma cannon found in SDE
CommanderBolt ACME SPECIAL FORCES RISE of LEGION 1104	Posted - 2014.03.20 10:59:00 - [140] - Quote While I agree the hopping in and out of LAV antics kinda defeats the downside of any heavy HMGer.... lets be honest guys they should be able to shoot it out the window and do drive bys (As should all weapons be able to shoot out the window with hip fire accuracy) but if we had that - it would be even worse than it is now. Investigate 9/11

Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 231	Posted - 2014.03.20 11:06:00 - [141] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: While I agree the hopping in and out of LAV antics kinda defeats the downside of any heavy HMGer.... lets be honest guys they should be able to shoot it out the window and do drive bys (As should all weapons be able to shoot out the window with hip fire accuracy) but if we had that - it would be even worse than it is now. Well I disagree. As far as I know, CCP was contemplating the possibility to implement passenger shooting. But hopefully they just give assaults that possibillity. Lets be honest, an hmg is fired from the hip, where is your hip in a car? Yes its below the dashboard. So no HMG firing from pessenger seat plz. Also dropship firing, I'd like to see that, but only with the blast shields down and only for light/medium suits. So you can easily counter it with MD/PLC round in the passenger compartment. This should btw do +50% damage to the dropship (hitting the inside of the DS). Enter/Exit animations should be implemented asap!
Imp Smash Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 208	Posted - 2014.03.20 11:38:00 - [142] - Quote We can't nerf the HMG just yet. Like assaults heavies received a bit of a nerf with the damage mod nerf. HMG damage mods also only do half what they used to. Rep tools also received a nerf so heavies will die easier. Also heavies are more susceptible to the soon to be buffed mass driver. So calling for a nerf on the HMG is premature at best..... That being said heavy TTK, while going down, won't be going down as much as assault. So a small damage nerf to the HMG in the future MIGHT be reasonable. But making such a change before we find out things are going to work will make balancing harder. Maybe hold off on the nerf comments a bit until we see how this round of changes affect balance?
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 231	Posted - 2014.03.20 11:44:00 - [143] - Quote +1 Just a tip in general, do not arrive in clusters when you engage heavies, since that makes the HMG even stronger.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 781	Posted - 2014.03.20 12:55:00 - [144] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: We can't nerf the HMG just yet. Like assaults heavies received a bit of a nerf with the damage mod nerf. HMG damage mods also only do half what they used to. Rep tools also received a nerf so heavies will die easier. Also heavies are more susceptible to the soon to be buffed mass driver. So calling for a nerf on the HMG is premature at best..... That being said heavy TTK, while going down, won't be going down as much as assault. So a small damage nerf to the HMG in the future MIGHT be reasonable. But making such a change before we find out things are going to work will make balancing harder. Maybe hold off on the nerf comments a bit until we see how this round of changes affect balance? Its pretty easy currently the HMG is in a really good way balancing wise. I can compete just fine versus assaults in its given range. In 1.8 the balanced HMG will get a relative Buff by roughly 10% while the suit to carry said HMG will get another buff. So in short the suit gets buffed its weapon as well as the counter weapons get nerfed.... This caused problems with the whole AV vs Vehicle balance and this will cause balancing issue with heavies vs their counters. To make things worse the best counter to heavies will soon be another heavy ;( thanks to light weapon wielding heavies. CCP seem to have a hang for repeating mistakes over and over again...


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