I would be fine with heavies and LAV's if there was an enter/exit animation that accounted for size. The instant pop in and pop out is BS. Ever tried bailing from a hummer in full battle rattle?

I never said it was -going- to be OP, I said that I was worried about it. In big ole letters right in the subject line and title text of the thread. In fact, by default, it's the very first thing you read before even seeing the rest of the thread. Worry does not constitute a definitive take. I'm going to be watching everything very very closely but logic would dictate that what is fine now is going to be a problem later when changes are made. Even you cannot deny this.



So much logic it honestly hurts


EDIT: Addendum, calling it now but we'll probably see a resurgence of the Heavy/Commando black screen at supply depots/spawning. Will repost this as a new thread indicating that I, in fact, called it, if it happens. If it doesn't, consider yourselves blessed that I set myself up for manifest destiny when it did not occur.

TBH...

CCP really needs to keep a close eye on the Heavy and the HMG in 1.8

Current 1.7:
Unless you're a heavy yourself, you should never engage a heavy in 1v1 duel (How it should be IMO). However, if you see a heavy with its back exposed , then by all means go for it.

1.8 Expectulation
I was already worried about the resist, but the damage mod/ rifle nerf is just too much. Furthermore, the HMG is already a powerful force to be reckoned with. I just can't see how the heavy role will not be broken in 1.8 lol.

I take huge issue with these new resistance bonuses. First of all, they shouldn't be anywhere near as high as they are. Secondly I feel it should've been an either/or situation. Either heavies got the explosive resistance, OR the light weapon resistance based on race, not both. I think it's going to lead to a huge imbalance.

15% resistance is for someone who has put millions of SP into one suit. You know what counters that? If you put millions of SP into the one gun they have 15% resistance to, id est: proficiency skill. You know what that's called? Balance. Further most of the resistances combat a weapon's strengths anyway, mostly just lowering it (Cal Sentinel - 15% shield resistance to blaster weapons, which do +20% to shields anyway, 10% to lasers which to +20% to shields, etc) and not negating it. Exceptions being Amarr and Gallente with projectile weapons, but again, prof V eliminates sentinel V resistance. Balanced.

I gotta disagree with you scales.

HMG Sentinel is just about perfectly balanced in 1.7.

And in 1.8 it's effectively getting a 9% DPS buff relative to rifles, a significant EHP buff if resistances align, and a huge buff to defense against the one reliable hard counter to Heavies: REs.

I think it's all too much at once. I've been a dedicated HMG user through all the nerf buff cycles since 8/2012, and I'm worried this next patch will make us too damn powerful... Which means we'll be beaten to death with the nerf bat in 1.9 or the patch after that.

I can use insults and sound like an imbecile also without carrying out a normal discussion. Let me guess Scalesdini, you probably use fatsuits with RR as well because you can't fight in a medium or scout suit so you need the extra HP buffer. If you only use a HMG, I'd be amazed, but even with that, you still get an automatic built in "crutch" due to the HMG "sloth" effect when you hit people with it.

Your argument is pointless. With the resistances, and sentinels having around 1200 armor alone, you can engage one from the side or behind and they'll still turn around and kill you. I wrote a large post on this under another thread using actual math, but I guess you probably couldn't comprehend that.

When there's entire squads or teams using nearly all fatsuits for the resistance and HP reserves all camping an area or single objective, how do you think people are going to be able to get in there? They won't. I don't take an issue with HMG heavies. It's all these light weapon fatsuit scrubs I can't stand.

Actually, I made a long, well thought out, articulate post on this page of this thread.

As for me using RR? lol is all I have to say, I've used nothing but HMG since August 2012.

15% resistance is for someone who has put millions of SP into one suit. You know what counters that? If you put millions of SP into the one gun they have 15% resistance to, id est: proficiency skill. You know what that's called? Balance. Further most of the resistances combat a weapon's strengths anyway, mostly just lowering it (Cal Sentinel - 15% shield resistance to blaster weapons, which do +20% to shields anyway, 10% to lasers which to +20% to shields, etc) and not negating it. Exceptions being Amarr and Gallente with projectile weapons, but again, prof V eliminates sentinel V resistance. Balanced.

Why is HMG not getting a nerf? Because that DPS everyone likes to pretend can be applied in the real world can only be applied at shotgun range. At 20m, HMG cannot possibly apply 100% of paper DPS - barely more than half. At 30m, it's under half. People seem to like to ignore this part of HMG, probably because they don't use it and assume it's like their laser accurate ____ rifle which can hit with every shot with decent aim (or aim assist, something that is weaker on HMG than on rifles anyway - not that I give a single solitary ****, it needs removed, but I digress...) but it isn't. That cone of fire that makes it so deadly at CQC also severely hampers its effectiveness at anything but CQC, even inside its own optimal it cannot apply 100% of its theoretical DPS. Tiny effective range, absurd falloff of damage between optimal and effective, massive dispersion - it's not doing the DPS people think except in close ranges, and if you're that close to the business end of an HMG, you're supposed to die. Learn2Flank.

The problem I have with this is that it's arguably more SP investment to counter the resistances than to get them. If you're speccing into Sentinels, you're getting the bonus all the way up to level five but in order to counter that you'd have to invest not only in 'x' weapon operation 5, but also Proficiency 5. It's the aspect that it costs more to counter the suit that's already powerful without the necessity of having other skills involved. Probably not wording it the way I want to but I can't get on Dust 514 right now to do a comparison of SP investment between Racial Sentinel 5 and Weapon Proficiency 5.

The next thing is the 'learn2flank' comment which... Not gonna lie, sort of rubs me the wrong way. Part of the argument that there's no viable CQC counter to the Heavy is that they turn just as fast as any other suit. Flanking is great but unless you can apply such massive damage as to outright kill them in less time than it takes them to turn around; there's an issue involved. First shot capabilities are always great but we're talking about a lot of damage coming back if they live through it.

It has a lot to do with map design as well as some maps (in particular the new Gallente maps) offer complete aerial cover; so kiss OB/DS support goodbye. Some of those maps have one way in and one way out, which poses a pretty hefty problem in the hallway/corridor like structure of the building's design. I'm sure heavies love this because it's true point defense but it begs the question: How do you counter it?

The problem I have with this is that it's arguably more SP investment to counter the resistances than to get them. If you're speccing into Sentinels, you're getting the bonus all the way up to level five but in order to counter that you'd have to invest not only in 'x' weapon operation 5, but also Proficiency 5. It's the aspect that it costs more to counter the suit that's already powerful without the necessity of having other skills involved. Probably not wording it the way I want to but I can't get on Dust 514 right now to do a comparison of SP investment between Racial Sentinel 5 and Weapon Proficiency 5.

The next thing is the 'learn2flank' comment which... Not gonna lie, sort of rubs me the wrong way. Part of the argument that there's no viable CQC counter to the Heavy is that they turn just as fast as any other suit. Flanking is great but unless you can apply such massive damage as to outright kill them in less time than it takes them to turn around; there's an issue involved. First shot capabilities are always great but we're talking about a lot of damage coming back if they live through it.

It has a lot to do with map design as well as some maps (in particular the new Gallente maps) offer complete aerial cover; so kiss OB/DS support goodbye. Some of those maps have one way in and one way out, which poses a pretty hefty problem in the hallway/corridor like structure of the building's design. I'm sure heavies love this because it's true point defense but it begs the question: How do you counter it?

well considering before the 10% dmg buff to the HMG, the HMG was just a giant BB gun that tickles the enemies armor.

so technically the HMG is fine where it is now.

unless of course everyone just wants a broken HMG so they can kill the heavies more easier. then you'll just see a surge of RR/CR/SCR heavies once the HMG is dead.

It takes 273,600sp to get heavy frame to lvl 3 to unlock sentinels, and a further 2,487,360sp to get proto sentinel. It takes 621,840sp to get (Light/Heavy/Sidearm) Weapon Operation V, 621,840sp to get (Specific Weapon) Operation V and a further 1,554,600sp to get Proficiency V. Now, no light/heavy/sidearm weapon requires ____ Operation V, but even if they did, that means it would take a grand total of 2,798,280sp to counter a sentinel's resistance, which costs 2,760,960sp to obtain. I'd say that's pretty fair, especially since light/heavy/sidearm weapon operation affect multiple weapons whereas heavy dropsuits skills only affect sentinels and commandos, and most people only run one or the other. Plus the L/H/S weapon op skill gives a bonus (3% CPU use reduction per level to weapon type), whereas basic heavy dropsuit skill gives none.

As for the flanking part, if a shotgunner catches me from behind I'm toast 99 out of 100 times, by the time I turn around the second slug is in me and I'm nearly dead, unless I get lucky or the shotgunner is very bad it ends poorly for me. Same deal for rifles hitting me from outside my range before I see them, unless I'm standing next to cover, I'm toast. Heavies have enormous head hitboxes, people need to use that to their advantage.

For the map issue, come on, there's only really 3 or 4 points that heavies truly shine on, and even then they're still very beatable. If there's heavies on both sides (as there should be), you use your own heavies to lead the charge in. Now that's not to say the only counter to heavies should be heavies, but you can't expect 4-5 heavies in a tight area like that to go down easily. Spam fluxes in, fire in MD, sneak in with cloaked shotgunners, send in your own heavies, etc. Sometimes it just takes a different approach for a situation than what we're used to doing. On skirmish maps, if there's 5 heavies camped on one point, switch your tactics up - stop going for that point, go and hack all the other points, force them into a situation you want to fight them in rather than the situation they want to fight you in. For dom, most of them are wide open, just kill them from range... for the one new dom map that isn't, get a DS and put uplinks on top of the cylinder where the point is and drop grenades/MD rounds down on their heads while you push in from both sides on the ground. And you can in fact drop an OB into that point, btw. And heavies suck at ambush, so there's that.

VERY good point. People complain about heavies using RRs and CRs, but what do you think will happen when the HMG gets the nerf you're talking about? Heavies that used the HMG will slowly gravitate to the better weapons, which people QQ about because "HEAVIES NOT SUPPOSE TO BE ABLE TO USE ARs!!!! QQ"

So heavies will dominate CQC... isn't that its job? Aren't you suppose to die if you turn a corner and bump into a heavy? No? Then yea, nerf the HMG, and make heavies as useless as they were a few updates ago... just that now they have a whole arsenal of light weapons to use

To be fair, it might need a nerf considering the nerfs everything got, but knowing CCP... lol... heavies will be right back to Uprising 1.0

To be fair, it might need a nerf considering the nerfs everything got, but knowing CCP... lol... heavies will be right back to Uprising 1.0

That nerf bat is my biggest fear, too, Lance.

The HMG needs a ~9% ROF nerf to stay as powerful as it is in 1.7, no more and no less. As it is now, it's getting an effective buff compared to it's most frequent competition.

I think if you listen carefully, people aren't saying "Nerf HMG because it's overpowered right now!" It isn't. It's pretty damn balanced right now. But if everything else is getting nerfed and HMG is left alone, that's effectively a buff, and HMG does NOT need a buff.

While I agree the hopping in and out of LAV antics kinda defeats the downside of any heavy HMGer.... lets be honest guys they should be able to shoot it out the window and do drive bys (As should all weapons be able to shoot out the window with hip fire accuracy) but if we had that - it would be even worse than it is now.

We can't nerf the HMG just yet. Like assaults heavies received a bit of a nerf with the damage mod nerf. HMG damage mods also only do half what they used to. Rep tools also received a nerf so heavies will die easier. Also heavies are more susceptible to the soon to be buffed mass driver. So calling for a nerf on the HMG is premature at best.....

That being said heavy TTK, while going down, won't be going down as much as assault. So a small damage nerf to the HMG in the future MIGHT be reasonable.

But making such a change before we find out things are going to work will make balancing harder. Maybe hold off on the nerf comments a bit until we see how this round of changes affect balance?