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Shouldnt the Rail Rifle have terrible hipfire?

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Reiki Jubo Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 232	Posted - 2014.01.15 21:45:00 - [1] - Quote Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good.
Mordecai Sanguine What The French 274	Posted - 2014.01.15 21:49:00 - [2] - Quote Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. No. At the contrary it's supposed to be the weapon with the best hip fire of all rifles. (See the "breach" descriptions of AR.) Rail rifle is the Breach Version of rifles. => Low ROF and bigger recoil but really good hip-fire pretty long range and average damage.
Tyjus Vacca Valor Coalition 74	Posted - 2014.01.15 21:52:00 - [3] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. No. At the contrary it's supposed to be the weapon with the best hip fire of all rifles. (See the "breach" descriptions of AR.) Rail rifle is the Breach Version of rifles. => Low ROF and bigger recoil but really good hip-fire pretty long range and average damage. huh? nooooo...best should be minmatar. he's right RR should be really bad. its a friggin rail gun that has to charge up before it fires.
stlcarlos989 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 960	Posted - 2014.01.15 21:52:00 - [4] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. No. At the contrary it's supposed to be the weapon with the best hip fire of all rifles. (See the "breach" descriptions of AR.) Rail rifle is the Breach Version of rifles. => Low ROF and bigger recoil but really good hip-fire pretty long range and average damage. Breach weapons are high damage short range weapons the rail is supposed to be long range NOT a CQC weapon STB Director, #1 in Warpoints E3 Closed Beta Build, Water Pipe Aficionado
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5741	Posted - 2014.01.15 21:55:00 - [5] - Quote stlcarlos989 wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. No. At the contrary it's supposed to be the weapon with the best hip fire of all rifles. (See the "breach" descriptions of AR.) Rail rifle is the Breach Version of rifles. => Low ROF and bigger recoil but really good hip-fire pretty long range and average damage. Breach weapons are high damage short range weapons the rail is supposed to be long range NOT a CQC weapon However the Breach variant never truly reflected the Caldari fighting style. You cannot take range away from a rail tech weapon, that's simply is purpose and the way it works. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
stlcarlos989 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 960	Posted - 2014.01.15 21:57:00 - [6] - Quote True Adamance wrote: stlcarlos989 wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. No. At the contrary it's supposed to be the weapon with the best hip fire of all rifles. (See the "breach" descriptions of AR.) Rail rifle is the Breach Version of rifles. => Low ROF and bigger recoil but really good hip-fire pretty long range and average damage. Breach weapons are high damage short range weapons the rail is supposed to be long range NOT a CQC weapon However the Breach variant never truly reflected the Caldari fighting style. You cannot take range away from a rail tech weapon, that's simply is purpose and the way it works. The rail rifle isn't a breach variant. If it were there would be a gun called the breach rail rifle. The rail rifle should keep its long range game it just needs a reduction in weapon efficiency inside of its optimal range. STB Director, #1 in Warpoints E3 Closed Beta Build, Water Pipe Aficionado
Leonid Tybalt Dark Knightz Corp. 141	Posted - 2014.01.15 21:58:00 - [7] - Quote Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. Depends what grounds you're looking at it from. A real world physics view or a game mechanical view? In my opinion they don't always follow the same logic in dust.
Mordecai Sanguine What The French 276	Posted - 2014.01.15 22:08:00 - [8] - Quote Tyjus Vacca wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. No. At the contrary it's supposed to be the weapon with the best hip fire of all rifles. (See the "breach" descriptions of AR.) Rail rifle is the Breach Version of rifles. => Low ROF and bigger recoil but really good hip-fire pretty long range and average damage. huh? nooooo...best should be minmatar. he's right RR should be really bad. its a friggin rail gun that has to charge up before it fires. And...why ? Minmatarr weapons right now are totally broken and Op for 80% of them. Incorrect Shield/armor values. Hit detection problem buffed them by twice. 8 PG for proto ? Seriously ? Minmatarr CR was supposed to be a mid range weapon. In fact it's the bast at close range-mid-range-cqc battles-open battles. Which is.......98.999999999% of battles ? He's way better than AR at close range NOT AS INTENDED. Guys. You know an accurate hip fire is BAAAAD at close range right ? Tight hip-fire is made to make clean hip-fire shots from mid-range. At short range a good hip fire is like the AR hip fire.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1530	Posted - 2014.01.15 22:11:00 - [9] - Quote Well here is the issue, it has to be stable and accurate to hit from far away, but that advantage is also reflecting onto the hip-fire as well, making it extremely powerful at close range. There are a couple factors you can play with here so I'll give my opinion of how to tweak the RR to make it less effective at close range but retain its advantage at long range. Increase Charge Time Slightly - The Charge time plays a much larger role in close quarters than it does at long range, by increasing the time it will be harder to fight up close. Nothing significant but a couple tenths of a second longer would be appropriate. Significantly increase recoil when fired from the hip - This gun should kick like a mule when fired from the hip. The dispersion should remain tight, but the recoil should be difficult to work with. Decrease turn speed when aiming down the sight (ADS)- Tracking speed isn't very critical when fighting from range, but it is critical up close. Reducing ADS tracking speed would prevent players from aiming down the sight to avoid the recoil at close range, but not hinder tracking at long range. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Ghost Kaisar Titans of Phoenix Legacy Rising 1918	Posted - 2014.01.15 22:12:00 - [10] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. No. At the contrary it's supposed to be the weapon with the best hip fire of all rifles. (See the "breach" descriptions of AR.) Rail rifle is the Breach Version of rifles. => Low ROF and bigger recoil but really good hip-fire pretty crap range and average damage. FTFY All other breach weapons have terrible range. This is the problem of the RR. It has all the benefits of Breach weapons, and yet lacks the range weakness. SOURCE: Try taking on targets at STD AR range with a Breach AR. Talk about damage dropoff. Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. Minmatar. In Rust we trust.

Ghost Kaisar Titans of Phoenix Legacy Rising 1918	Posted - 2014.01.15 22:14:00 - [11] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Guys. You know an accurate hip fire is BAAAAD at close range right ? Tight hip-fire is made to make clean hip-fire shots from mid-range. At short range a good hip fire is like the AR hip fire. Not if you have good aim. The CR has almost exactly the same hipfire as the RR, and I can nail targets in CQC with utterly nasty ease. Then again, I am a good shot. Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
Soraya Xel The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 1109	Posted - 2014.01.15 22:15:00 - [12] - Quote ADS tracking with the rail already feels sluggish to me, but that might be in part because I use a mouse. I definitely agree on the charge time increase if necessary to reduce short range effectiveness. It isn't a big deal for long-range, but it ensures I die swiftly in CQC. Hipfire needs an overall rework thanks to aim assist. I can't hipfire for crud, but aim assisters have hipfire more accurate than ADS. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Leonid Tybalt Dark Knightz Corp. 142	Posted - 2014.01.15 22:16:00 - [13] - Quote Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. Depends what grounds you're looking on it from. A real world physics view or a game mechanical view? In my opinion they don't always follow the same logic in dust. ] Like the Assault Rifles for instance: according to in game lore they fire small little pellets of plasma. Plasma is esentially atoms in an even more excited state than a gas (you could say it's "molten gas"). As we all know, gases don't weigh very much (even in a compressed state under high pressure where gases turn into liquids the gas itself doesn't weigh much). This means that small pellets of plasma roughly the size of rifle bullets contained in a magnetic field (as I suppose that plasma rifles fire) would litteraly be lighter than air (or at least close to it) and provide no form of kinetic impact on the target to speak of but rather cause thermal damage due to the extreme heat that most kinds of plasma reach. So the question is: why would a plasma pellet launcher be exposed to any noticable recoil at all? A rail rifle on the other hand would be subjected to recoil due to firing actual projectiles using electromagnetism. That said one of the prime benefits of rail guns (in the real world) is the fact that you can theoretically accelerate a projectile to velocities in a huge excess to those of conventional bullets/artillery shells using a chemical propellant. And the kinetic energy transfer during impact could even be so high that the damage caused would make explosive compounds in any kind of shell redundant. This also means that if you accelerate the projectile in sufficient speed it doesen't have to be very large or contain a lot of mass to still be able to cause huge damage to the target (theoretically rail gun supposed to do the same job as an assault rifle could fire projectiles with a calibre the size of needle pins a fraction of the size of a .22 bullet and still do as much damage as a 5.56 round). So not even the rail rifle should be subjected to too much recoil if we discuss physics that is.
Lorhak Gannarsein 1218	Posted - 2014.01.15 22:18:00 - [14] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. No. At the contrary it's supposed to be the weapon with the best hip fire of all rifles. (See the "breach" descriptions of AR.) Rail rifle is the Breach Version of rifles. => Low ROF and bigger recoil but really good hip-fire pretty crap range and average damage. FTFY All other breach weapons have terrible range. This is the problem of the RR. It has all the benefits of Breach weapons, and yet lacks the range weakness. SOURCE: Try taking on targets at STD AR range with a Breach AR. Talk about damage dropoff. Apparently Breach AR used to have much more range. Then it had the sh*t nerfed out of it. PRO tanker and proud.
Tyjus Vacca Valor Coalition 75	Posted - 2014.01.15 22:18:00 - [15] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Well here is the issue, it has to be stable and accurate to hit from far away, but that advantage is also reflecting onto the hip-fire as well, making it extremely powerful at close range. There are a couple factors you can play with here so I'll give my opinion of how to tweak the RR to make it less effective at close range but retain its advantage at long range. Increase Charge Time Slightly - The Charge time plays a much larger role in close quarters than it does at long range, by increasing the time it will be harder to fight up close. Nothing significant but a couple tenths of a second longer would be appropriate. Significantly increase recoil when fired from the hip - This gun should kick like a mule when fired from the hip. The dispersion should remain tight, but the recoil should be difficult to work with. Decrease turn speed when aiming down the sight (ADS)- Tracking speed isn't very critical when fighting from range, but it is critical up close. Reducing ADS tracking speed would prevent players from aiming down the sight to avoid the recoil at close range, but not hinder tracking at long range. ^this. added charge time and added recoil on hip fire would fix it. so would ur suggestion about slowing down the ADS. and I agree the minmatar is probably too good at close range when it should be the gallente weapons. the problem I see is the ROF is 1200...thats kind of ridiculous. following pokeys example the gallente weapons with iron sights should have faster ADS and less recoil. Also much better hipfire.
Roy Ventus Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance 892	Posted - 2014.01.15 22:19:00 - [16] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. No. At the contrary it's supposed to be the weapon with the best hip fire of all rifles. (See the "breach" descriptions of AR.) Rail rifle is the Breach Version of rifles. => Low ROF and bigger recoil but really good hip-fire pretty long range and average damage. Nah. The hip-fire of the breach isn't "good" it's just tight and controllable. Imo, it's near equal to the AR but it's damage per hit is better. Only takes 5-7 for a take down on a shield tanked enemy. Btw, if the Breach variants are supposed to be CQC, the AR Breach is mad good with medium range to long range. "There once was a time when there wasn't a Roy Ventus and it wasn't much of a time at all." Roy Ventus
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1535	Posted - 2014.01.15 22:50:00 - [17] - Quote Tyjus Vacca wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Well here is the issue, it has to be stable and accurate to hit from far away, but that advantage is also reflecting onto the hip-fire as well, making it extremely powerful at close range. There are a couple factors you can play with here so I'll give my opinion of how to tweak the RR to make it less effective at close range but retain its advantage at long range. Increase Charge Time Slightly - The Charge time plays a much larger role in close quarters than it does at long range, by increasing the time it will be harder to fight up close. Nothing significant but a couple tenths of a second longer would be appropriate. Significantly increase recoil when fired from the hip - This gun should kick like a mule when fired from the hip. The dispersion should remain tight, but the recoil should be difficult to work with. Decrease turn speed when aiming down the sight (ADS)- Tracking speed isn't very critical when fighting from range, but it is critical up close. Reducing ADS tracking speed would prevent players from aiming down the sight to avoid the recoil at close range, but not hinder tracking at long range. ^this. added charge time and added recoil on hip fire would fix it. so would ur suggestion about slowing down the ADS. and I agree the minmatar is probably too good at close range when it should be the gallente weapons. the problem I see is the ROF is 1200...thats kind of ridiculous. following pokeys example the gallente weapons with iron sights should have faster ADS and less recoil. Also much better hipfire. I basically see it like this: Rail Rifle Low RoF Very Long Range ADS - Low Dispersion ADS - Low Recoil ADS - Slow Tracking Hip - Low Dispersion Hip - Very High Recoil Plasma Rifle High RoF Short Range ADS - Moderate Dispersion ADS - Low Recoil ADS - Fast Tracking Hip - Very High Dispersion Hip - Low Recoil Combat Rifle Very High RoF Medium Range ADS - Low Dispersion ADS - Moderate Recoil (Between bursts, recoil between rounds in burst should be minimal) ADS - Moderate Tracking Hip - Moderate Dispersion Hip - Moderate Recoil Scrambler Rifle Moderate RoF Medium Range ADS - Moderate Dispersion ADS - Low Recoil ADS - Moderate Tracking Hip - Moderate Dispersion Hip - Moderate Recoil 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1574	Posted - 2014.01.15 23:27:00 - [18] - Quote Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. It should have lower DPS.
Jacques Cayton II Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 537	Posted - 2014.01.15 23:30:00 - [19] - Quote stlcarlos989 wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. No. At the contrary it's supposed to be the weapon with the best hip fire of all rifles. (See the "breach" descriptions of AR.) Rail rifle is the Breach Version of rifles. => Low ROF and bigger recoil but really good hip-fire pretty long range and average damage. Breach weapons are high damage short range weapons the rail is supposed to be long range NOT a CQC weapon Wait so you thought a gun that's accurate was going to have terrible hip fire? You don't know ccp do you took the nearly 2 years to fix the hmg We fight for the future of the State not our personal goals
Tch Tch Red Shirts Away Team 136	Posted - 2014.01.15 23:31:00 - [20] - Quote The rail guns CQC hip fire ability is probably better because of kick and dispersion it causes. At long range you want a narrow/point cone whilst at short range you want dispersion to catch the opponent. So it might be the very kick in the weapon that is enhancing its CQC. Turrent - the sound a tankers pants makes when he finds out the four swarm militia doing squats around him aren't AFK.

Jacques Cayton II Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 537	Posted - 2014.01.15 23:36:00 - [21] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Well here is the issue, it has to be stable and accurate to hit from far away, but that advantage is also reflecting onto the hip-fire as well, making it extremely powerful at close range. There are a couple factors you can play with here so I'll give my opinion of how to tweak the RR to make it less effective at close range but retain its advantage at long range. Increase Charge Time Slightly - The Charge time plays a much larger role in close quarters than it does at long range, by increasing the time it will be harder to fight up close. Nothing significant but a couple tenths of a second longer would be appropriate. Significantly increase recoil when fired from the hip - This gun should kick like a mule when fired from the hip. The dispersion should remain tight, but the recoil should be difficult to work with. Decrease turn speed when aiming down the sight (ADS)- Tracking speed isn't very critical when fighting from range, but it is critical up close. Reducing ADS tracking speed would prevent players from aiming down the sight to avoid the recoil at close range, but not hinder tracking at long range. No answer to all of the above strafe I just out killed a Kaalakiota rail on a cko logi with my dren sentinel with a std hmg. Guys when you zig when your supposed to zag your gonna have a bad time. The RR is ok in cqc especially that charge up kills it. If you can't kill a rr up close you suck. Now the AR and cr are another story they are good at cqc scrambler depends on the player We fight for the future of the State not our personal goals
Heimdallr69 Imperfect Bastards 1350	Posted - 2014.01.15 23:44:00 - [22] - Quote Think about it..slow rof = best hip fire. I'm everyone's type
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1536	Posted - 2014.01.15 23:44:00 - [23] - Quote Tch Tch wrote: The rail guns CQC hip fire ability is probably better because of kick and dispersion it causes. At long range you want a narrow/point cone whilst at short range you want dispersion to catch the opponent. So it might be the very kick in the weapon that is enhancing its CQC. That's only true for high RoF weapons because you have so many bullets you dont care if a bunch miss, but with a low rate of fire you need it to be accurate so that every shot lands. The fact of the matter is that the RR doesn't have ENOUGH recoil when hipfired, which allows people to land every shot easily. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 49	Posted - 2014.01.15 23:45:00 - [24] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Tyjus Vacca wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. No. At the contrary it's supposed to be the weapon with the best hip fire of all rifles. (See the "breach" descriptions of AR.) Rail rifle is the Breach Version of rifles. => Low ROF and bigger recoil but really good hip-fire pretty long range and average damage. huh? nooooo...best should be minmatar. he's right RR should be really bad. its a friggin rail gun that has to charge up before it fires. Guys. You know an accurate hip fire is BAAAAD at close range right ? Tight hip-fire is made to make clean hip-fire shots from mid-range. At short range a good hip fire is like the AR hip fire. By that logic, the tactical sniper rifle is the best weapon in the game for CQC. Dont want to be mean, just to point out an error in this line of reasoning Yes, I did kill Archduke Ferdinand. I used my nova knives. https://dust514.com/recruit/k3vMnb/
Reiki Jubo Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 234	Posted - 2014.01.15 23:49:00 - [25] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Tyjus Vacca wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. No. At the contrary it's supposed to be the weapon with the best hip fire of all rifles. (See the "breach" descriptions of AR.) Rail rifle is the Breach Version of rifles. => Low ROF and bigger recoil but really good hip-fire pretty long range and average damage. huh? nooooo...best should be minmatar. he's right RR should be really bad. its a friggin rail gun that has to charge up before it fires. Guys. You know an accurate hip fire is BAAAAD at close range right ? Tight hip-fire is made to make clean hip-fire shots from mid-range. At short range a good hip fire is like the AR hip fire. By that logic, the tactical sniper rifle is the best weapon in the game for CQC. Dont want to be mean, just to point out an error in this line of reasoning ur not being mean. most people were like ???? when they saw that too.
Tch Tch Red Shirts Away Team 136	Posted - 2014.01.15 23:55:00 - [26] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Tch Tch wrote: The rail guns CQC hip fire ability is probably better because of kick and dispersion it causes. At long range you want a narrow/point cone whilst at short range you want dispersion to catch the opponent. So it might be the very kick in the weapon that is enhancing its CQC. That's only true for high RoF weapons because you have so many bullets you dont care if a bunch miss, but with a low rate of fire you need it to be accurate so that every shot lands. The fact of the matter is that the RR doesn't have ENOUGH recoil when hipfired, which allows people to land every shot easily. I use shotties. So 600rpm is plenty fast. Turrent - the sound a tankers pants makes when he finds out the four swarm militia doing squats around him aren't AFK.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1537	Posted - 2014.01.15 23:56:00 - [27] - Quote The general rule I like to follow for hipfire is as such As Bullet Damage Increases, Recoil Increases As Rate of Fire Increases, Dispersion Increases 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 28	Posted - 2014.01.15 23:59:00 - [28] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. No. At the contrary it's supposed to be the weapon with the best hip fire of all rifles. (See the "breach" descriptions of AR.) Rail rifle is the Breach Version of rifles. => Low ROF and bigger recoil but really good hip-fire pretty long range and average damage. Average damage? The Rail rifle is a very powerful weapon. Too powerful in my book. It has crazy range, it makes laser rifles obsolete and it is way too accurate in CQC. I am a KB/M user so I am royally screwed when it comes to CQC vs aim assist players anyway. However my plasma AR rarely comes out on top vs rail rifle users. <-- In close range engagements. I find the only way to counter them is ducking in and out of cover so they have problems with the spool up time.
Eko Sol 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 46	Posted - 2014.01.16 00:00:00 - [29] - Quote I just want to throw this out there but, technically, the RR wouldn't have typical recoil. It would have equal dispersal to the outside of the weapon. This means that there would actually be zero recoil in the reverse of the direction of the projectile. Again, it would go out to the "sides" of the rifle but since it is even it will appear non-existent and not affect aim. I say this to prove the point that this is a game and so they made recoil against all of physics. Just like dropping a tank on top of a tower over 150m in the air and being able to shoot at better than 45 degree angles downward from a 90 degree flat and parallel land/tile. It's a game. Let it be a game first and then accurate later. About the hip shooting. Here is another interesting fact. if you train a person who has never fired a weapon 20 hours how to fire down the sight using the eye and 20 hours from the hip they are more accurate from the hip. This goes for hand guns though...not rifles (at least not to my knowledge). It's a game.
Dustbunny Durrr ReD or DeaD 45	Posted - 2014.01.16 00:01:00 - [30] - Quote stlcarlos989 wrote: True Adamance wrote: stlcarlos989 wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. No. At the contrary it's supposed to be the weapon with the best hip fire of all rifles. (See the "breach" descriptions of AR.) Rail rifle is the Breach Version of rifles. => Low ROF and bigger recoil but really good hip-fire pretty long range and average damage. Breach weapons are high damage short range weapons the rail is supposed to be long range NOT a CQC weapon However the Breach variant never truly reflected the Caldari fighting style. You cannot take range away from a rail tech weapon, that's simply is purpose and the way it works. The rail rifle isn't a breach variant. If it were there would be a gun called the breach rail rifle. The rail rifle should keep its long range game it just needs a reduction in weapon efficiency inside of its optimal range. A longer charge up time would accromplish this. Change it from the nearly non-existant .25 to .5 or .6S and you'll see lower effective close quarters combat effectiveness (where time to first shot matters greatly) without greatly impeding ranged shots.

Tch Tch Red Shirts Away Team 136	Posted - 2014.01.16 00:09:00 - [31] - Quote Eko Sol wrote: I just want to throw this out there but, technically, the RR wouldn't have typical recoil. It would have equal dispersal to the outside of the weapon. This means that there would actually be zero recoil in the reverse of the direction of the projectile. Again, it would go out to the "sides" of the rifle but since it is even it will appear non-existent and not affect aim. I say this to prove the point that this is a game and so they made recoil against all of physics. Just like dropping a tank on top of a tower over 150m in the air and being able to shoot at better than 45 degree angles downward from a 90 degree flat and parallel land/tile. It's a game. Let it be a game first and then accurate later. About the hip shooting. Here is another interesting fact. if you train a person who has never fired a weapon 20 hours how to fire down the sight using the eye and 20 hours from the hip they are more accurate from the hip. This goes for hand guns though...not rifles (at least not to my knowledge). It's a game. Interested why the rail rifle wouldn't have typical recoil as per Newton's Three Laws. The bullets going out would have a momentum. The rifle would have an equal momentum backwards ie recoil. If you could fire fast enough you would have a rocket engine. Turrent - the sound a tankers pants makes when he finds out the four swarm militia doing squats around him aren't AFK.
Eko Sol 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 46	Posted - 2014.01.16 00:53:00 - [32] - Quote Tch Tch wrote: Eko Sol wrote: I just want to throw this out there but, technically, the RR wouldn't have typical recoil. It would have equal dispersal to the outside of the weapon. This means that there would actually be zero recoil in the reverse of the direction of the projectile. Again, it would go out to the "sides" of the rifle but since it is even it will appear non-existent and not affect aim. I say this to prove the point that this is a game and so they made recoil against all of physics. Just like dropping a tank on top of a tower over 150m in the air and being able to shoot at better than 45 degree angles downward from a 90 degree flat and parallel land/tile. It's a game. Let it be a game first and then accurate later. About the hip shooting. Here is another interesting fact. if you train a person who has never fired a weapon 20 hours how to fire down the sight using the eye and 20 hours from the hip they are more accurate from the hip. This goes for hand guns though...not rifles (at least not to my knowledge). It's a game. Interested why the rail rifle wouldn't have typical recoil as per Newton's Three Laws. The bullets going out would have a momentum. The rifle would have an equal momentum backwards ie recoil. If you could fire fast enough you would have a rocket engine. You would not. Lauching a projectile via a "Rail" mechanism involves complex electro-magnetic math where the forward force is generated from at a perpendicular angle and NOT from behind the projectile. I don't explain physics on forums but I'll try to summarize it in a sentence. The force applied is electro-magnetic and the "recoil" would happen on the projectile in the reverse direction and thus a perpendicular force would have a perpindicular recoil. In addition, Newtonian Physics applies to mostly gravity and not thermodynamics, electro-magnetism, and quantum physics. Newtonian physics is also just algebra where as modern spacetime and gravity physics is calculus. Go talk with your physics teacher if you have one.
Tch Tch Red Shirts Away Team 138	Posted - 2014.01.16 01:18:00 - [33] - Quote I think you will need to talk with yours. The force to move the projectile is from the Lorentz force which is also forcing the rails apart. The Lorentz force acts on the particle perpendicular to the field. The momentum change is experienced by both the particle and the plate generating the field. Lorentz force is how cathode ray tubes (old TVs) and how TIMS (Thermal Ionization Mass Spectrometers) work (I've used TIMS analyzing yellow cake isotopes for the natural OKLO nuclear reactor). So the magnetic field is perpendicular, the momentum is not. And it gets applied to both the projectile and the railgun. Turrent - the sound a tankers pants makes when he finds out the four swarm militia doing squats around him aren't AFK.
Eko Sol 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 46	Posted - 2014.01.16 01:45:00 - [34] - Quote Tch Tch wrote: I think you will need to talk with yours. The force to move the projectile is from the Lorentz force which is also forcing the rails apart. The Lorentz force acts on the particle perpendicular to the field. The momentum change is experienced by both the particle and the plate generating the field. Lorentz force is how cathode ray tubes (old TVs) and how TIMS (Thermal Ionization Mass Spectrometers) work (I've used TIMS analyzing yellow cake isotopes for the natural OKLO nuclear reactor). So the magnetic field is perpendicular, the momentum is not. And it gets applied to both the projectile and the railgun. You are right, there will be recoil with the launcher if using modern rail tech. But your explanation is like a copy and paste from nonsense on the web. The only reason I know there is recoil now is because I looked on youtube and there is recoil. I have the mindset of, what was, the traditional rail where a single rod would be launched using perpendicularly applied force as opposed to the modern way where it is now applied in the back at the fork tail thing. This conversation has sparked my interest though and I will now be looking into it and the math...since the math is my favorite part.
Boot Booter Omega Elite Mercs INC. 228	Posted - 2014.01.16 01:50:00 - [35] - Quote Well I'm pretty sure that the hip fire cross hairs in this game don't work as intended. I find most rounds follow directly in the center of the cross hairs. Sooo does it matter? Rail rifle is just powerful which makes it good in CQC. Same deal with the CR
Tch Tch Red Shirts Away Team 143	Posted - 2014.01.16 02:12:00 - [36] - Quote Eko Sol wrote: Tch Tch wrote: I think you will need to talk with yours. The force to move the projectile is from the Lorentz force which is also forcing the rails apart. The Lorentz force acts on the particle perpendicular to the field. The momentum change is experienced by both the particle and the plate generating the field. Lorentz force is how cathode ray tubes (old TVs) and how TIMS (Thermal Ionization Mass Spectrometers) work (I've used TIMS analyzing yellow cake isotopes for the natural OKLO nuclear reactor). So the magnetic field is perpendicular, the momentum is not. And it gets applied to both the projectile and the railgun. You are right, there will be recoil with the launcher if using modern rail tech. But your explanation is like a copy and paste from nonsense on the web. The only reason I know there is recoil now is because I looked on youtube and there is recoil. I have the mindset of, what was, the traditional rail where a single rod would be launched using perpendicularly applied force as opposed to the modern way where it is now applied in the back at the fork tail thing. This conversation has sparked my interest though and I will now be looking into it and the math...since the math is my favorite part. Wikipedia is pretty good for physical sciences and at the apex of that is physics Lorentz equation: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force How stuff works is pretty good (minus the ads) Railgun: http://science.howstuffworks.com/rail-gun1.htm And whilst it is about twenty years since I did Faraday's equations, tensor's, Schrodingers Equation (try doing triple integral a in a magnetic field... Sure it explains a sodium doublet, but try doing it). I think my basic physics understanding helps sift which sites are more useful to get information from. That and I've been following the US Navy railgun research on Ars Technica. Turrent - the sound a tankers pants makes when he finds out the four swarm militia doing squats around him aren't AFK.
KING CHECKMATE Ametat Security Amarr Empire 3619	Posted - 2014.01.16 02:14:00 - [37] - Quote Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. Shouldnt ALL Rifles have terrible hipfire? At least compared to SMG's and Shotguns? GIVE ME A RESPEC CCP.
Reiki Jubo Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 236	Posted - 2014.01.16 02:39:00 - [38] - Quote appreciate the contributions from u two scholars but I think we can all agree balance > realism. gr8 hipfire has made the RR a more powerful version of the tac ar............we all know how that ended.
Patrick57 Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 3960	Posted - 2014.01.16 02:50:00 - [39] - Quote Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. It should, and so should the Scrambler Rifle (that's coming from a Scrambler Rifle user >_>). Longer range weapons such as these should not be as effective as they are in CQC, otherwise they are not only too good at their job, but they outclass the weapons that are supposed to preform better in certain circumstances. Winner of at least 9 King ThunderBolt hate videos :D
KING CHECKMATE Ametat Security Amarr Empire 3621	Posted - 2014.01.16 02:55:00 - [40] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. It should, and so should the Scrambler Rifle (that's coming from a Scrambler Rifle user >_>). Longer range weapons such as these should not be as effective as they are in CQC, otherwise they are not only too good at their job, but they outclass the weapons that are supposed to preform better in certain circumstances. People Crying about RR and SCR are just not neutral enough to be taken seriously. I mean,talking about ranges and damages and effectiveness. You all DO know the ACR hits LONGER than an AR,faster than an SMG,has perfect Hipfire and enough bullets to drop the Heaviest of Heavys? IMO, the ACR is the most powerful of all rifles,And you dont see me QQ about it. NON ''RIFLE'' weapons need a boost.Specially Shotguns,nova Knives and Mass drivers.... GIVE ME A RESPEC CCP.

Dusters Blog Galactic News Network 549	Posted - 2014.01.16 02:56:00 - [41] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. It should, and so should the Scrambler Rifle (that's coming from a Scrambler Rifle user >_>). Longer range weapons such as these should not be as effective as they are in CQC, otherwise they are not only too good at their job, but they outclass the weapons that are supposed to preform better in certain circumstances. ^this. we dont envy CCP for having to crunch all the considerable data in this game but when they decided to recreate new eden they agreed to have weapons and their racial variants display their particular traits. might be a good idea 2 slow down the ADS and reduced hipfire accuracy on the ScR too.
Patrick57 Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 3962	Posted - 2014.01.16 02:58:00 - [42] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: People Crying about RR and SCR are just not neutral enough to be taken seriously. I mean,talking about ranges and damages and effectiveness. You all DO know the ACR hits LONGER than an AR,faster than an SMG,has perfect Hipfire and enough bullets to drop the Heaviest of Heavys? IMO, the ACR is the most powerful of all rifles,And you dont see me QQ about it. NON ''RIFLE'' weapons need a boost.Specially Shotguns,nova Knives and Mass drivers.... All Rifles are OP Winner of at least 9 King ThunderBolt hate videos :D
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 687	Posted - 2014.01.16 04:04:00 - [43] - Quote Tch Tch wrote: Eko Sol wrote: I just want to throw this out there but, technically, the RR wouldn't have typical recoil. It would have equal dispersal to the outside of the weapon. This means that there would actually be zero recoil in the reverse of the direction of the projectile. Again, it would go out to the "sides" of the rifle but since it is even it will appear non-existent and not affect aim. I say this to prove the point that this is a game and so they made recoil against all of physics. Just like dropping a tank on top of a tower over 150m in the air and being able to shoot at better than 45 degree angles downward from a 90 degree flat and parallel land/tile. It's a game. Let it be a game first and then accurate later. About the hip shooting. Here is another interesting fact. if you train a person who has never fired a weapon 20 hours how to fire down the sight using the eye and 20 hours from the hip they are more accurate from the hip. This goes for hand guns though...not rifles (at least not to my knowledge). It's a game. Interested why the rail rifle wouldn't have typical recoil as per Newton's Three Laws. The bullets going out would have a momentum. The rifle would have an equal momentum backwards ie recoil. If you could fire fast enough you would have a rocket engine. That's not accurate. I helped work on some actual railgun projects previously and one of the primary advantages is that they have essentially no recoil at all which is an advantage in target tracking and 2nd shot engagement. Rail guns impel the projectile by using magnetic coils or rails actived in sucession to hyper accelerate a kinetic penetrator. Normal projectile firearms have a recoil because their is a essentially a controlled explosion inside the weapon that powers the projectile downrange. The larger caliber / higher power round has a proportionally larger "explosion" thus creating the higher level of recoil. "Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."
Zekain K Expert Intervention Caldari State 1040	Posted - 2014.01.16 04:10:00 - [44] - Quote You guys are aware that if you increase the spread of the rr when hip fired, you'll actually make it better, right!?view mean, that's what happened to the hmg. *CALDARI not so MASTER RACE* Forum Warrior Level: 10
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 687	Posted - 2014.01.16 04:12:00 - [45] - Quote Eko Sol wrote: Tch Tch wrote: Eko Sol wrote: I just want to throw this out there but, technically, the RR wouldn't have typical recoil. It would have equal dispersal to the outside of the weapon. This means that there would actually be zero recoil in the reverse of the direction of the projectile. Again, it would go out to the "sides" of the rifle but since it is even it will appear non-existent and not affect aim. I say this to prove the point that this is a game and so they made recoil against all of physics. Just like dropping a tank on top of a tower over 150m in the air and being able to shoot at better than 45 degree angles downward from a 90 degree flat and parallel land/tile. It's a game. Let it be a game first and then accurate later. About the hip shooting. Here is another interesting fact. if you train a person who has never fired a weapon 20 hours how to fire down the sight using the eye and 20 hours from the hip they are more accurate from the hip. This goes for hand guns though...not rifles (at least not to my knowledge). It's a game. Interested why the rail rifle wouldn't have typical recoil as per Newton's Three Laws. The bullets going out would have a momentum. The rifle would have an equal momentum backwards ie recoil. If you could fire fast enough you would have a rocket engine. You would not. Lauching a projectile via a "Rail" mechanism involves complex electro-magnetic math where the forward force is generated from at a perpendicular angle and NOT from behind the projectile. I don't explain physics on forums but I'll try to summarize it in a sentence. The force applied is electro-magnetic and the "recoil" would happen on the projectile in the reverse direction and thus a perpendicular force would have a perpindicular recoil. In addition, Newtonian Physics applies to mostly gravity and not thermodynamics, electro-magnetism, and quantum physics. Newtonian physics is also just algebra where as modern spacetime and gravity physics is calculus. Go talk with your physics teacher if you have one. EDIT: Perpendicular to the axis in which you are aiming the projectile. You are partially correct. A single is projectile is normally impelled by a series of rings or rails along the barrel that are actived in sequential order which effectively accelerates the projectile to terminal velocity by "passing" the projective from ring to ring with increasine velocity. If it were were single magnetic impulsion then your that invovled repellent magentic force there would be some validity to your theory. To my knowledge, none the functional rail systems use anything remote like that kind of system. "Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."
KING CHECKMATE Ametat Security Amarr Empire 3625	Posted - 2014.01.16 04:14:00 - [46] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: People Crying about RR and SCR are just not neutral enough to be taken seriously. I mean,talking about ranges and damages and effectiveness. You all DO know the ACR hits LONGER than an AR,faster than an SMG,has perfect Hipfire and enough bullets to drop the Heaviest of Heavys? IMO, the ACR is the most powerful of all rifles,And you dont see me QQ about it. NON ''RIFLE'' weapons need a boost.Specially Shotguns,nova Knives and Mass drivers.... All Rifles are OP They are NOT Overpowered. They are Balanced. Its the OTHER weapons that are just Under powered,making rifles,seem OP. :3 GIVE ME A RESPEC CCP.
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. 2708	Posted - 2014.01.16 04:24:00 - [47] - Quote MOTHERFUCKING FACT Breach Assault Rifle is related in operation to Rail Rifle MOTHERFUCKING FACT Breach Assault Rifle now has the same range as the standard Assault Rifle. It can't be considered CQC anymore although it excels at CQC. http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/news.control/65468/1/rangeprofiles.jpg MOTHERFUCKING FACT Breach Assault Rifle hipfire is very tight and thus due to relation Rail Rifle has tight spread. It wouldn't make sense for a long range weapon to have lots of dispersion otherwise it would not be able to hit things at long range. You realize that hipfire does not change the range of the weapon so why would it's effectiveness at range be changed by hipfire? You may answer accuracy but nothing really changes about the rifle other than control. Check out latest BSOTT Guide
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 3282	Posted - 2014.01.16 04:32:00 - [48] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: MOTHERFUCKING FACT Breach Assault Rifle is related in operation to Rail Rifle MOTHERFUCKING FACT Breach Assault Rifle now has the same range as the standard Assault Rifle. It can't be considered CQC anymore although it excels at CQC. http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/news.control/65468/1/rangeprofiles.jpg MOTHERFUCKING FACT Breach Assault Rifle hipfire is very tight and thus due to relation Rail Rifle has tight spread. It wouldn't make sense for a long range weapon to have lots of dispersion otherwise it would not be able to hit things at long range. You realize that hipfire does not change the range of the weapon so why would it's effectiveness at range be changed by hipfire? You may answer accuracy but nothing really changes about the rifle other than control. Mentioning the BAR still gets me emotional. I just can't deal with this now You wanna battle / Aztec's not afraid of you / I could care less about your reputation / Even though it maybe true.
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. 2710	Posted - 2014.01.16 04:34:00 - [49] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Bojo The Mighty wrote: MOTHERFUCKING FACT Breach Assault Rifle is related in operation to Rail Rifle MOTHERFUCKING FACT Breach Assault Rifle now has the same range as the standard Assault Rifle. It can't be considered CQC anymore although it excels at CQC. http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/news.control/65468/1/rangeprofiles.jpg MOTHERFUCKING FACT Breach Assault Rifle hipfire is very tight and thus due to relation Rail Rifle has tight spread. It wouldn't make sense for a long range weapon to have lots of dispersion otherwise it would not be able to hit things at long range. You realize that hipfire does not change the range of the weapon so why would it's effectiveness at range be changed by hipfire? You may answer accuracy but nothing really changes about the rifle other than control. Mentioning the BAR still gets me emotional. I just can't deal with this now Why? I've actually seen its use amongst others skyrocket. Check out latest BSOTT Guide
8213 0uter.Heaven Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 1340	Posted - 2014.01.16 04:44:00 - [50] - Quote WHY WOULD YOU HAVE A RIFLE THAT HAS THE MOST RANGE AND A STARTING 423 DPS ALSO HAVE BAD HIPFIRE??? THAT'S NOT BALANCE! The rail is supposed to have the best of EVERYTHING! And you're supposed to use it with a Heavy Dropsuit! Its not the most used gun right now for nothing! Its difficult to use at all ranges and barely does any damage. This thread is dismissed as ridiculous! Fish in a bucket!

Tch Tch Red Shirts Away Team 147	Posted - 2014.01.16 04:49:00 - [51] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Tch Tch wrote: Eko Sol wrote: I just want to throw this out there but, technically, the RR wouldn't have typical recoil. It would have equal dispersal to the outside of the weapon. This means that there would actually be zero recoil in the reverse of the direction of the projectile. Again, it would go out to the "sides" of the rifle but since it is even it will appear non-existent and not affect aim. I say this to prove the point that this is a game and so they made recoil against all of physics. Just like dropping a tank on top of a tower over 150m in the air and being able to shoot at better than 45 degree angles downward from a 90 degree flat and parallel land/tile. It's a game. Let it be a game first and then accurate later. About the hip shooting. Here is another interesting fact. if you train a person who has never fired a weapon 20 hours how to fire down the sight using the eye and 20 hours from the hip they are more accurate from the hip. This goes for hand guns though...not rifles (at least not to my knowledge). It's a game. Interested why the rail rifle wouldn't have typical recoil as per Newton's Three Laws. The bullets going out would have a momentum. The rifle would have an equal momentum backwards ie recoil. If you could fire fast enough you would have a rocket engine. That's not accurate. I helped work on some actual railgun projects previously and one of the primary advantages is that they have essentially no recoil at all which is an advantage in target tracking and 2nd shot engagement. Rail guns impel the projectile by using magnetic coils or rails actived in sucession to hyper accelerate a kinetic penetrator. Normal projectile firearms have a recoil because their is a essentially a controlled explosion inside the weapon that powers the projectile downrange. The larger caliber / higher power round has a proportionally larger "explosion" thus creating the higher level of recoil. http://www.utexas.edu/research/cem/IEEE/PR%2052%20Weldon%20Publications.pdf Conservation of Momentum or "Why Homer won't allow perputal motion machines in his house." Turrent - the sound a tankers pants makes when he finds out the four swarm militia doing squats around him aren't AFK.
8213 0uter.Heaven Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 1340	Posted - 2014.01.16 04:53:00 - [52] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. No. At the contrary it's supposed to be the weapon with the best hip fire of all rifles. (See the "breach" descriptions of AR.) Rail rifle is the Breach Version of rifles. => Low ROF and bigger recoil but really good hip-fire pretty long range and average damage. The DPS on a RR starts at 423 the DPS on a Breach AR starts at 340 Difference of 83 dps in favor of the rail rifle and it has twice the effective range. You can stop talking now. Fish in a bucket!
KING CHECKMATE Ametat Security Amarr Empire 3628	Posted - 2014.01.16 05:13:00 - [53] - Quote 8213 wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. No. At the contrary it's supposed to be the weapon with the best hip fire of all rifles. (See the "breach" descriptions of AR.) Rail rifle is the Breach Version of rifles. => Low ROF and bigger recoil but really good hip-fire pretty long range and average damage. The DPS on a RR starts at 423 the DPS on a Breach AR starts at 340 Difference of 83 dps in favor of the rail rifle and it has twice the effective range. You can stop talking now. The Breach AR IS after all, a bad copy of the RR.so .....(same as the TAC to the SCR RIFLE and the BRST AR to the Combat rifle) I'd say its fine. (I actually use the Breach AR too : / )(And SG and SMG's WTH is wrong with me...?) GIVE ME A RESPEC CCP.
8213 0uter.Heaven Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 1341	Posted - 2014.01.16 06:13:00 - [54] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: 8213 wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. No. At the contrary it's supposed to be the weapon with the best hip fire of all rifles. (See the "breach" descriptions of AR.) Rail rifle is the Breach Version of rifles. => Low ROF and bigger recoil but really good hip-fire pretty long range and average damage. The DPS on a RR starts at 423 the DPS on a Breach AR starts at 340 Difference of 83 dps in favor of the rail rifle and it has twice the effective range. You can stop talking now. The Breach AR IS after all, a bad copy of the RR.so .....(same as the TAC to the SCR RIFLE and the BRST AR to the Combat rifle) I'd say its fine. (I actually use the Breach AR too : / )(And SG and SMG's WTH is wrong with me...?) It'd be fine if it didn't have a 200m effective range. It's DPS plus its profeciency at Far, medium and short range is called unbalanced. Its only 17dps less than the AssaultCR. A weapon can't have it all. That's called unbalanced and niche system. Fish in a bucket!
Ghost Kaisar Titans of Phoenix Legacy Rising 1940	Posted - 2014.01.16 06:14:00 - [55] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. No. At the contrary it's supposed to be the weapon with the best hip fire of all rifles. (See the "breach" descriptions of AR.) Rail rifle is the Breach Version of rifles. => Low ROF and bigger recoil but really good hip-fire pretty crap range and average damage. FTFY All other breach weapons have terrible range. This is the problem of the RR. It has all the benefits of Breach weapons, and yet lacks the range weakness. SOURCE: Try taking on targets at STD AR range with a Breach AR. Talk about damage dropoff. Apparently Breach AR used to have much more range. Then it had the sht nerfed out of it. I WONDER WHY! Nothing says "F*K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
Johnny Guilt Algintal Core 432	Posted - 2014.01.16 06:42:00 - [56] - Quote Sholdnt the AR the best hipfire of the rifles and yet it's garbarge. A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.
Jacques Cayton II Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 540	Posted - 2014.01.16 08:47:00 - [57] - Quote The thing is that everyone always forgets is if you increase the hipfire it turns into a spray and pray weapon and honestly I wouldn't mind you increasing dispersion on hip fire. I won't have to aim any more just shoot till your dead We fight for the future of the State not our personal goals
GLOBAL RAGE Consolidated Dust 12	Posted - 2014.01.16 08:48:00 - [58] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Eko Sol wrote: Tch Tch wrote: Eko Sol wrote: I just want to throw this out there but, technically, the RR wouldn't have typical recoil. It would have equal dispersal to the outside of the weapon. This means that there would actually be zero recoil in the reverse of the direction of the projectile. Again, it would go out to the "sides" of the rifle but since it is even it will appear non-existent and not affect aim. I say this to prove the point that this is a game and so they made recoil against all of physics. Just like dropping a tank on top of a tower over 150m in the air and being able to shoot at better than 45 degree angles downward from a 90 degree flat and parallel land/tile. It's a game. Let it be a game first and then accurate later. About the hip shooting. Here is another interesting fact. if you train a person who has never fired a weapon 20 hours how to fire down the sight using the eye and 20 hours from the hip they are more accurate from the hip. This goes for hand guns though...not rifles (at least not to my knowledge). It's a game. Interested why the rail rifle wouldn't have typical recoil as per Newton's Three Laws. The bullets going out would have a momentum. The rifle would have an equal momentum backwards ie recoil. If you could fire fast enough you would have a rocket engine. You would not. Lauching a projectile via a "Rail" mechanism involves complex electro-magnetic math where the forward force is generated from at a perpendicular angle and NOT from behind the projectile. I don't explain physics on forums but I'll try to summarize it in a sentence. The force applied is electro-magnetic and the "recoil" would happen on the projectile in the reverse direction and thus a perpendicular force would have a perpindicular recoil. In addition, Newtonian Physics applies to mostly gravity and not thermodynamics, electro-magnetism, and quantum physics. Newtonian physics is also just algebra where as modern spacetime and gravity physics is calculus. Go talk with your physics teacher if you have one. EDIT: Perpendicular to the axis in which you are aiming the projectile. You are partially correct. A single is projectile is normally impelled by a series of rings or rails along the barrel that are actived in sequential order which effectively accelerates the projectile to terminal velocity by "passing" the projective from ring to ring with increasine velocity. If it were were single magnetic impulsion then your that invovled repellent magentic force there would be some validity to your theory. To my knowledge, none the functional rail systems use anything remote like that kind of system. I'm with JL on this one. CCP calls systems RIFLES when they are actually GUNS. The feet per second that these rounds are traveling at, if rifle twist @ 1:10 the round would have been spun up to over 500,000 RPM- they would disintegrate in flight. In gun theory a plasma envelope would help in aero stability, and using light weight metal impregnated ceramic pellets would work in a coil gun creating the kinetic energy needed. The velocity that most of DUST's weapons produce infer the the breach psi would have to be was over 150,000 psi, making the light weapons very heavy due to barrel weight. ya ya invisible aluminium ....lol! Peace/out-from sunny Tampa
Lynn Beck Granite Mercenary Division Top Men. 547	Posted - 2014.01.16 09:33:00 - [59] - Quote By definition breach weaponry has a lower DPS. However a standard RR has similar(if not better) DPS than a gal ar. Change that or give it sniper rifle level recoil. Long range weapons do high alpha yes, but pound for pound do less DPS than a combination of lighter weaponry. Under 28db Officially nerfproof (predicting CR nerf February '14) I have a God, His name is Dakka.
Jacques Cayton II Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 540	Posted - 2014.01.16 10:33:00 - [60] - Quote It's like the forge gun all over again let's all just scream nerf till its useless yea because ccp listens. When they here nerf they nerf it to the ground can't wait to see the rr a situational gun that is only good at 70+ m because that's fair right We fight for the future of the State not our personal goals

Tolen Rosas Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 289	Posted - 2014.01.16 14:13:00 - [61] - Quote Jacques Cayton II wrote: It's like the forge gun all over again let's all just scream nerf till its useless yea because ccp listens. When they here nerf they nerf it to the ground can't wait to see the rr a situational gun that is only good at 70+ m because that's fair right ur whining right now bro. RR is basically the Tac AR right now if it has great hipfire. Best hipfire should be the gallente weapons......I agree with the guys who recommended slower ADS. Since this is EVE the racial differences have to matter.
Jacques Cayton II Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 541	Posted - 2014.01.16 14:35:00 - [62] - Quote Ok riddle me this if it's so op then why in my heavy suit can only a cr scr or ar beat me in cqc but not the rr? Or maybe it's because the rr hits hard and does bonus damage to armor did you guys ever figure that into count? Especially since most people use armor suits they will feel the shot but in my Caldari suit I barely feel it. Tank shields and strafe you'll be fine no need to nerf anything except for the rof on RR and cr We fight for the future of the State not our personal goals
Tolen Rosas Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 290	Posted - 2014.01.16 15:29:00 - [63] - Quote Jacques Cayton II wrote: Ok riddle me this if it's so op then why in my heavy suit can only a cr scr or ar beat me in cqc but not the rr? Or maybe it's because the rr hits hard and does bonus damage to armor did you guys ever figure that into count? Especially since most people use armor suits they will feel the shot but in my Caldari suit I barely feel it. Tank shields and strafe you'll be fine no need to nerf anything except for the rof on RR and cr I prefer the term unbalanced :) ur experience tho not irrelevant are minute when u look at the big picture. the issue is that many players are getting mowed down in CQC regardless of class/race because of the damage of the RR and the fact that it has great hipfire. the damage is fine. the hipfire CQC is not.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1549	Posted - 2014.01.16 15:47:00 - [64] - Quote Jacques Cayton II wrote: It's like the forge gun all over again let's all just scream nerf till its useless yea because ccp listens. When they here nerf they nerf it to the ground can't wait to see the rr a situational gun that is only good at 70+ m because that's fair right It is fair, kinda like how the AR is only good at like 45- m? Differences in effective range are a part of the game, and long range weapons should be difficult to use at close range, just as short range weapons should be difficult to use at long range. I posted some suggestions earlier in the thread to tweak the RR making it less viable at close range, do you feel those changes were unreasonable? 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Dengar Skirata the third day Public Disorder. 85	Posted - 2014.01.16 16:07:00 - [65] - Quote So... this is just another "buff the AR" thread? Wow... I thought we were past this guys. // Author of the Dust Spec Ops Tactics Handbook // Proud Member of the Templis Dragonaurs // Caldari Loyalist
Prius Vecht Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 204	Posted - 2014.01.16 16:13:00 - [66] - Quote Dengar Skirata wrote: So... this is just another "buff the AR" thread? Wow... I thought we were past this guys. Its not buff at all. its more allow it the strengths/weaknesses it should have. I agree Gallente AR (with iron sights) should have the fastest ADS and best hipfire.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1550	Posted - 2014.01.16 16:27:00 - [67] - Quote Prius Vecht wrote: Dengar Skirata wrote: So... this is just another "buff the AR" thread? Wow... I thought we were past this guys. Its not buff at all. its more allow it the strengths/weaknesses it should have. I agree Gallente AR (with iron sights) should have the fastest ADS and best hipfire. But also high dispersion and poor range. I mean you think about it, every non-variant rifle has some sort of a red dot sight or a scope on it, where the AR has nothing. I think this is telling that the weapon is supposed to be primarily used from the hip while the others are more for the ADS. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
DeathwindRising ROGUE SPADES 202	Posted - 2014.01.16 16:32:00 - [68] - Quote Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. no. youll notice that from assault riflr to combat rifle and then rail rifle, your hip fire seem to "improve". yes and also no. the hip fire accuracy is for the weapons intended range. in this case the size of the reticule should be completely filled by the target at its intended range. so for assault rifles its around 5m. 5m is pretty close for "full" damage accuracy, but it means youll be more likely to hit a strafing or otherwise non stationary target easier than you would with a rail rifle at 5m. next time you play try each weapon and pay attention to how far you need to be to fill the reticule with a target. thats the intended range. if you rail rifles are hitting you with hip fire then you arent close enough...
Reiki Jubo Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 243	Posted - 2014.01.16 17:56:00 - [69] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. no. youll notice that from assault riflr to combat rifle and then rail rifle, your hip fire seem to "improve". yes and also no. the hip fire accuracy is for the weapons intended range. in this case the size of the reticule should be completely filled by the target at its intended range. so for assault rifles its around 5m. 5m is pretty close for "full" damage accuracy, but it means youll be more likely to hit a strafing or otherwise non stationary target easier than you would with a rail rifle at 5m. next time you play try each weapon and pay attention to how far you need to be to fill the reticule with a target. thats the intended range. if you rail rifles are hitting you with hip fire then you arent close enough... u may want to read more replies in this thread. seems like im not the only one experiencing it. some might say it needs a hotfix.
Dusters Blog Galactic News Network 550	Posted - 2014.01.16 17:58:00 - [70] - Quote Its pretty obvious this needs some tuning. if anyone is interested in doing a piece on this our blog will host it. props to P Dravon for fiinding another separator for rifles. ADS speed is a good way to distinguish rifle traits as well. +1

Lynn Beck Granite Mercenary Division Top Men. 547	Posted - 2014.01.16 18:31:00 - [71] - Quote Reduce RR DPS. It shouldn't have more DPS than a gallente weapon, i dont care about how it's recoil is'noticable past the 6th shot' Under 28db Officially nerfproof (predicting CR nerf February '14) I have a God, His name is Dakka.
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 798	Posted - 2014.01.16 18:52:00 - [72] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Jacques Cayton II wrote: It's like the forge gun all over again let's all just scream nerf till its useless yea because ccp listens. When they here nerf they nerf it to the ground can't wait to see the rr a situational gun that is only good at 70+ m because that's fair right It is fair, kinda like how the AR is only good at like 45- m? Differences in effective range are a part of the game, and long range weapons should be difficult to use at close range, just as short range weapons should be difficult to use at long range. I posted some suggestions earlier in the thread to tweak the RR making it less viable at close range, do you feel those changes were unreasonable? The gun is not the Problem It's Perfectly Fine. The problem is AA... People who actually know how to Shoot, us ADS while Shooting. Saw a suggestion up here about making the Tracking lower?! Really?! People complaining about hipfire, Have you been hit by a GEK, Duvolle, Carthum, Viziam, Boundless CR or Ishukone CR or any other Rifles close range?! You think most players are using Iron sights or ADS when shooting in CQC situation?! lol They are spraying and praying for the kills. How do i know ?! I have Prototype of all these guns. Hell, i use the Viziam SCR as my Favorite Shotgun, it's much more effective than a Shotgun. At the very least one would have to aim properly with a Viziam and RR on CQC and people using Assault RR for long range battles?! Well i'll just LOL at them... \ All this, is part of Dust. People get butthurt over a gun they can't use themselves properly. So the logic : it must be OP or It must be a KBM user or It's Lag switchers and so on... TAC AR this, Imperial that, AR this AR that... All waa waa.... The gun hasn't changed since it's release. I'd like to ask people to spec into it and then complain about it's CQC abilities. Took me few weeks of practice and a lot of ISK to figure out what works with this gun and what doesn't... How to counter it's weaknesses.
Dusters Blog Galactic News Network 551	Posted - 2014.01.16 19:01:00 - [73] - Quote user skill will never be even. if u can get all headshots with the SCR congratulations, you will do well with any weapon. Aim is king in shooter, no one will ever debate this. but when the weapon design is bad and everyone can use it against how it was intended it may be time for tuning. the RR simply cant be designed as a close quarters weapon or it has no weaknesses. it and weapons like the SCR should have bat hipfire. the GEK & HMG should have good hipfire and faster ADS as they both gets outranged by weapons like the CR, SCR and RR. The CR should be the most balanced with solid ADS and and solid hipfire..though not as good as the SMG, HMG or gallente AR.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1554	Posted - 2014.01.16 19:04:00 - [74] - Quote NAV HIV wrote: The gun is not the Problem It's Perfectly Fine. The problem is AA... People who actually know how to Shoot, us ADS while Shooting. Saw a suggestion up here about making the Tracking lower?! Really?! Actually lower tracking is exactly how railguns are balance in EVE. They have high damage but low tracking which makes them difficult to use against enemies up close with a high traversal velocity, but easy to use at long range where traversal is low. Blasters on the other hang have extremely high tracking, very high damage, but stupidly short range. My proposed lower tracking on the RR would only apply to ADS, this is because I also proposed significant recoil for the RR when fired from the hip. The decreased tracking would discouraged people from using ADS in close quarters to avoid that increased recoil, but would not negatively affect long range combat since traversal velocity is slow at range. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 798	Posted - 2014.01.16 19:05:00 - [75] - Quote Dusters Blog wrote: user skill will never be even. if u can get all headshots with the SCR congratulations, you will do well with any weapon. Aim is king in shooter, no one will ever debate this. but when the weapon design is bad and everyone can use it against how it was intended it may be time for tuning. the RR simply cant be designed as a close quarters weapon or it has no weaknesses. it and weapons like the SCR should have bat hipfire. the GEK & HMG should have good hipfire and faster ADS as they both gets outranged by weapons like the CR, SCR and RR. The CR should be the most balanced with solid ADS and and solid hipfire..though not as good as the SMG, HMG or gallente AR. LOL the CR outclasses AR by a lot right now. The only thing to Counter a CR right now is Another CR or pure luck. People using RR for CQC start firing even before turning a corner, can't blame that on the weapon. It's called player ingenuity. lol
Jacques Cayton II Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 541	Posted - 2014.01.16 19:10:00 - [76] - Quote Dusters Blog wrote: user skill will never be even. if u can get all headshots with the SCR congratulations, you will do well with any weapon. Aim is king in shooter, no one will ever debate this. but when the weapon design is bad and everyone can use it against how it was intended it may be time for tuning. the RR simply cant be designed as a close quarters weapon or it has no weaknesses. it and weapons like the SCR should have bat hipfire. the GEK & HMG should have good hipfire and faster ADS as they both gets outranged by weapons like the CR, SCR and RR. The CR should be the most balanced with solid ADS and and solid hipfire..though not as good as the SMG, HMG or gallente AR. RR has a weakness slow rof and charge up. You can fire 2 bursts with the cr in that time almost 4 shots with the at scr idk 3-5 hmg 100's. If you die from a rail rifle and complain because it killed you at 30m don't stand still move or wait till he reloads the rail rifle is very easy to manipulate We fight for the future of the State not our personal goals
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1555	Posted - 2014.01.16 19:20:00 - [77] - Quote Jacques Cayton II wrote: Dusters Blog wrote: user skill will never be even. if u can get all headshots with the SCR congratulations, you will do well with any weapon. Aim is king in shooter, no one will ever debate this. but when the weapon design is bad and everyone can use it against how it was intended it may be time for tuning. the RR simply cant be designed as a close quarters weapon or it has no weaknesses. it and weapons like the SCR should have bat hipfire. the GEK & HMG should have good hipfire and faster ADS as they both gets outranged by weapons like the CR, SCR and RR. The CR should be the most balanced with solid ADS and and solid hipfire..though not as good as the SMG, HMG or gallente AR. RR has a weakness slow rof and charge up. You can fire 2 bursts with the cr in that time almost 4 shots with the at scr idk 3-5 hmg 100's. If you die from a rail rifle and complain because it killed you at 30m don't stand still move or wait till he reloads the rail rifle is very easy to manipulate I think no weaknesses is a poor way to put it. I think the inherent weaknesses the RR has a close range are not prominent enough, making it more effective in CQC than was originally intended. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 799	Posted - 2014.01.16 19:30:00 - [78] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: NAV HIV wrote: The gun is not the Problem It's Perfectly Fine. The problem is AA... People who actually know how to Shoot, us ADS while Shooting. Saw a suggestion up here about making the Tracking lower?! Really?! Actually lower tracking is exactly how railguns are balance in EVE. They have high damage but low tracking which makes them difficult to use against enemies up close with a high traversal velocity, but easy to use at long range where traversal is low. Blasters on the other hang have extremely high tracking, very high damage, but stupidly short range. My proposed lower tracking on the RR would only apply to ADS, this is because I also proposed significant recoil for the RR when fired from the hip. The decreased tracking would discouraged people from using ADS in close quarters to avoid that increased recoil, but would not negatively affect long range combat since traversal velocity is slow at range. In other words your proposed proposal would be make the gun useless in both scenarios. How am i supposed to Shoot the RR from over 80m with lower tracking ?! Hipfire?! I understand your concern about using ADS in CQC. But to use ADS in CQC it would take a lot of player skills, not AA.... Besides, this isn't EvE (My knowledge for that is limited) This is Dust, a FPS, where target's move way faster than GIANT ships do... Hip-firing honestly is for players who can't shoot, or who can shoot but get's nervous cause they are jumped by a CR that has a ROF of over 1000 lol
Eko Sol 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 48	Posted - 2014.01.16 19:33:00 - [79] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Jacques Cayton II wrote: Dusters Blog wrote: user skill will never be even. if u can get all headshots with the SCR congratulations, you will do well with any weapon. Aim is king in shooter, no one will ever debate this. but when the weapon design is bad and everyone can use it against how it was intended it may be time for tuning. the RR simply cant be designed as a close quarters weapon or it has no weaknesses. it and weapons like the SCR should have bat hipfire. the GEK & HMG should have good hipfire and faster ADS as they both gets outranged by weapons like the CR, SCR and RR. The CR should be the most balanced with solid ADS and and solid hipfire..though not as good as the SMG, HMG or gallente AR. RR has a weakness slow rof and charge up. You can fire 2 bursts with the cr in that time almost 4 shots with the at scr idk 3-5 hmg 100's. If you die from a rail rifle and complain because it killed you at 30m don't stand still move or wait till he reloads the rail rifle is very easy to manipulate I think no weaknesses is a poor way to put it. I think the inherent weaknesses the RR has a close range are not prominent enough, making it more effective in CQC than was originally intended. Since I'm a prominent user of the RR I'll chime in here. The only time my RR has any success in close range is when someone boxes themselves in and they can't get away. That being said, when I'm up against someone that can stick and move like they should then I have serious difficulty in the close range and lose. The biggest issue I find with people is that they run away from the RR like they would an AR. The problem is that you are giving an RR what they want. Instead, find cover immediately even if you are 60m away from the RR. People stay in the open and try to fight it out against an RR. There is no other weapon before 1.7 that required you to find cover at 60+ meters away. So everyone has this bad habbit of just moving left to right. FIND COVER.
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 799	Posted - 2014.01.16 19:37:00 - [80] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Jacques Cayton II wrote: Dusters Blog wrote: user skill will never be even. if u can get all headshots with the SCR congratulations, you will do well with any weapon. Aim is king in shooter, no one will ever debate this. but when the weapon design is bad and everyone can use it against how it was intended it may be time for tuning. the RR simply cant be designed as a close quarters weapon or it has no weaknesses. it and weapons like the SCR should have bat hipfire. the GEK & HMG should have good hipfire and faster ADS as they both gets outranged by weapons like the CR, SCR and RR. The CR should be the most balanced with solid ADS and and solid hipfire..though not as good as the SMG, HMG or gallente AR. RR has a weakness slow rof and charge up. You can fire 2 bursts with the cr in that time almost 4 shots with the at scr idk 3-5 hmg 100's. If you die from a rail rifle and complain because it killed you at 30m don't stand still move or wait till he reloads the rail rifle is very easy to manipulate I think no weaknesses is a poor way to put it. I think the inherent weaknesses the RR has a close range are not prominent enough, making it more effective in CQC than was originally intended. Well the reasons it's Effective at CQC are: - Red dot thinks they are invincible and they walk straight towards the RR line of Fire. I encounter that quite a lot. Specially with heavies. With the CR and SCR i take em down even faster. Not CRs fault. People need to learn to evade bullets. - Players actually use their brains to overcome the weakness of this Weapon. Ie; Starting to shoot before entering the Room or a tight corner - Players actually have their sensitivity at 100 for both X and Y axis to use the ADS properly. (I wish i could choose 150) - Aim Assist is the major problem for hipfire. If CCP took it out, the battlefield would become a bit more skill based... Militia AR, until this day is the Most effective Weapon.... Just saying...

NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 799	Posted - 2014.01.16 19:39:00 - [81] - Quote Eko Sol wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Jacques Cayton II wrote: Dusters Blog wrote: user skill will never be even. if u can get all headshots with the SCR congratulations, you will do well with any weapon. Aim is king in shooter, no one will ever debate this. but when the weapon design is bad and everyone can use it against how it was intended it may be time for tuning. the RR simply cant be designed as a close quarters weapon or it has no weaknesses. it and weapons like the SCR should have bat hipfire. the GEK & HMG should have good hipfire and faster ADS as they both gets outranged by weapons like the CR, SCR and RR. The CR should be the most balanced with solid ADS and and solid hipfire..though not as good as the SMG, HMG or gallente AR. RR has a weakness slow rof and charge up. You can fire 2 bursts with the cr in that time almost 4 shots with the at scr idk 3-5 hmg 100's. If you die from a rail rifle and complain because it killed you at 30m don't stand still move or wait till he reloads the rail rifle is very easy to manipulate I think no weaknesses is a poor way to put it. I think the inherent weaknesses the RR has a close range are not prominent enough, making it more effective in CQC than was originally intended. Since I'm a prominent user of the RR I'll chime in here. The only time my RR has any success in close range is when someone boxes themselves in and they can't get away. That being said, when I'm up against someone that can stick and move like they should then I have serious difficulty in the close range and lose. The biggest issue I find with people is that they run away from the RR like they would an AR. The problem is that you are giving an RR what they want. Instead, find cover immediately even if you are 60m away from the RR. People stay in the open and try to fight it out against an RR. There is no other weapon before 1.7 that required you to find cover at 60+ meters away. So everyone has this bad habbit of just moving left to right. FIND COVER. Exactly... Btw it's fun fighting against you RR vs RR
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 799	Posted - 2014.01.16 19:44:00 - [82] - Quote Tolen Rosas wrote: Jacques Cayton II wrote: It's like the forge gun all over again let's all just scream nerf till its useless yea because ccp listens. When they here nerf they nerf it to the ground can't wait to see the rr a situational gun that is only good at 70+ m because that's fair right ur whining right now bro. RR is basically the Tac AR right now if it has great hipfire. Best hipfire should be the gallente weapons......I agree with the guys who recommended slower ADS. Since this is EVE the racial differences have to matter. This DUST... lol Not one GIANT SHIP vs Another GIANT Ship... Targets actually move very fast here... Just saying..
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1558	Posted - 2014.01.16 19:45:00 - [83] - Quote NAV I think you're misunderstanding me. I think Plasma Rifle should be used ADS which is why it needs to have fast tracking when ADS since it is supposed to be used in CQC where traversal is high. The RR SHOULD be difficult to use in CQC, even when ADS because that's how rails are balanced to be ineffective in close quarters. The increase to hipfire recoil in RR would be to prevent less skilled players from taking advantage of the very stable RR and hipfiring with pinpoint accuracy. Unfortunately you can't reduce tracking from the hip as it would hinder simple movement. If you're fighting around the optimal range of the RR, tracking isn't an issue. I use it quite frequently and would not suffer at all from reduced tracking if fighting at the appropriate range. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Chaos Scum Warcaste 18	Posted - 2014.01.16 19:47:00 - [84] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: NAV I think you're misunderstanding me. I think Plasma Rifle should be used ADS which is why it needs to have fast tracking when ADS since it is supposed to be used in CQC where traversal is high. The RR SHOULD be difficult to use in CQC, even when ADS because that's how rails are balanced to be ineffective in close quarters. The increase to hipfire recoil in RR would be to prevent less skilled players from taking advantage of the very stable RR and hipfiring with pinpoint accuracy. Unfortunately you can't reduce tracking from the hip as it would hinder simple movement. If you're fighting around the optimal range of the RR, tracking isn't an issue. I use it quite frequently and would not suffer at all from reduced tracking if fighting at the appropriate range. isn't the entire range of the rail its optimal? Don't hate me because I'm dutiful.
Dusters Blog Galactic News Network 551	Posted - 2014.01.16 19:47:00 - [85] - Quote NAV HIV wrote: Dusters Blog wrote: user skill will never be even. if u can get all headshots with the SCR congratulations, you will do well with any weapon. Aim is king in shooter, no one will ever debate this. but when the weapon design is bad and everyone can use it against how it was intended it may be time for tuning. the RR simply cant be designed as a close quarters weapon or it has no weaknesses. it and weapons like the SCR should have bat hipfire. the GEK & HMG should have good hipfire and faster ADS as they both gets outranged by weapons like the CR, SCR and RR. The CR should be the most balanced with solid ADS and and solid hipfire..though not as good as the SMG, HMG or gallente AR. LOL the CR outclasses AR by a lot right now. The only thing to Counter a CR right now is Another CR or pure luck. People using RR for CQC start firing even before turning a corner, can't blame that on the weapon. It's called player ingenuity. lol good point, that goes back 2 my point about player skill, where anticipation plays a big role. although I would say the charge up time should be increased a bit just like the CR ROF probably needs to come down.
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 799	Posted - 2014.01.16 19:52:00 - [86] - Quote Dusters Blog wrote: NAV HIV wrote: Dusters Blog wrote: user skill will never be even. if u can get all headshots with the SCR congratulations, you will do well with any weapon. Aim is king in shooter, no one will ever debate this. but when the weapon design is bad and everyone can use it against how it was intended it may be time for tuning. the RR simply cant be designed as a close quarters weapon or it has no weaknesses. it and weapons like the SCR should have bat hipfire. the GEK & HMG should have good hipfire and faster ADS as they both gets outranged by weapons like the CR, SCR and RR. The CR should be the most balanced with solid ADS and and solid hipfire..though not as good as the SMG, HMG or gallente AR. LOL the CR outclasses AR by a lot right now. The only thing to Counter a CR right now is Another CR or pure luck. People using RR for CQC start firing even before turning a corner, can't blame that on the weapon. It's called player ingenuity. lol good point, that goes back 2 my point about player skill, where anticipation plays a big role. although I would say the charge up time should be increased a bit just like the CR ROF probably needs to come down. That would be a better choice. It would take a lot more skill to use the RR in CQC and Would take a bit more effort from CR users to get kills, rather than spraying all over a red dots face
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1560	Posted - 2014.01.16 19:57:00 - [87] - Quote Chaos Scum wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: NAV I think you're misunderstanding me. I think Plasma Rifle should be used ADS which is why it needs to have fast tracking when ADS since it is supposed to be used in CQC where traversal is high. The RR SHOULD be difficult to use in CQC, even when ADS because that's how rails are balanced to be ineffective in close quarters. The increase to hipfire recoil in RR would be to prevent less skilled players from taking advantage of the very stable RR and hipfiring with pinpoint accuracy. Unfortunately you can't reduce tracking from the hip as it would hinder simple movement. If you're fighting around the optimal range of the RR, tracking isn't an issue. I use it quite frequently and would not suffer at all from reduced tracking if fighting at the appropriate range. isn't the entire range of the rail its optimal? Negative. If that were the case there would no point in using any other rifle. Basically how they do it in EVE is optimal range is a calculated value that incorporates how far the gun can shoot before it starts losing damage, accuracy, and tracking speed. Long range weapons suffer from poor tracking, which means they can't rotate fast enough to hit stuff up close, but their damage reaches out very far. This gives turrets a sort of doughnut of optimal range, too close and the turret misses, too far and the damage falls off significantly. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Reiki Jubo Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 244	Posted - 2014.01.16 20:00:00 - [88] - Quote fyi 30m isnt CQC....its short range. 15 < is CQC.
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 799	Posted - 2014.01.16 20:01:00 - [89] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: NAV I think you're misunderstanding me. I think Plasma Rifle should be used ADS which is why it needs to have fast tracking when ADS since it is supposed to be used in CQC where traversal is high. The RR SHOULD be difficult to use in CQC, even when ADS because that's how rails are balanced to be ineffective in close quarters. The increase to hipfire recoil in RR would be to prevent less skilled players from taking advantage of the very stable RR and hipfiring with pinpoint accuracy. Unfortunately you can't reduce tracking from the hip as it would hinder simple movement. If you're fighting around the optimal range of the RR, tracking isn't an issue. I use it quite frequently and would not suffer at all from reduced tracking if fighting at the appropriate range. Well it wouldn't be an issue if it's a Blueberry... But it would be very ineffective if its a skilled players. Just a scenario. A proto Scout that you can probably stop from getting close to you at 70-80 m. You wouldn't be able to stop them from getting close to you with the CQC weapons. I'd be dead even before they reach 40m if they have a SCR, CR, AR... Scout has a very small hit box and a lot of movement ability.... So Slowing the Tracking would make the gun useless at long range...
Amarrgheddon Warcaste 99	Posted - 2014.01.16 20:03:00 - [90] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Chaos Scum wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: NAV I think you're misunderstanding me. I think Plasma Rifle should be used ADS which is why it needs to have fast tracking when ADS since it is supposed to be used in CQC where traversal is high. The RR SHOULD be difficult to use in CQC, even when ADS because that's how rails are balanced to be ineffective in close quarters. The increase to hipfire recoil in RR would be to prevent less skilled players from taking advantage of the very stable RR and hipfiring with pinpoint accuracy. Unfortunately you can't reduce tracking from the hip as it would hinder simple movement. If you're fighting around the optimal range of the RR, tracking isn't an issue. I use it quite frequently and would not suffer at all from reduced tracking if fighting at the appropriate range. isn't the entire range of the rail its optimal? Negative. If that were the case there would no point in using any other rifle. Basically how they do it in EVE is optimal range is a calculated value that incorporates how far the gun can shoot before it starts losing damage, accuracy, and tracking speed. Long range weapons suffer from poor tracking, which means they can't rotate fast enough to hit stuff up close, but their damage reaches out very far. This gives turrets a sort of doughnut of optimal range, too close and the turret misses, too far and the damage falls off significantly. but people are dying extremely close range to the rail rifle. It is also the longest ranged rifle. This must not be eve.

NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 799	Posted - 2014.01.16 20:04:00 - [91] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Chaos Scum wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: NAV I think you're misunderstanding me. I think Plasma Rifle should be used ADS which is why it needs to have fast tracking when ADS since it is supposed to be used in CQC where traversal is high. The RR SHOULD be difficult to use in CQC, even when ADS because that's how rails are balanced to be ineffective in close quarters. The increase to hipfire recoil in RR would be to prevent less skilled players from taking advantage of the very stable RR and hipfiring with pinpoint accuracy. Unfortunately you can't reduce tracking from the hip as it would hinder simple movement. If you're fighting around the optimal range of the RR, tracking isn't an issue. I use it quite frequently and would not suffer at all from reduced tracking if fighting at the appropriate range. isn't the entire range of the rail its optimal? Negative. If that were the case there would no point in using any other rifle. Basically how they do it in EVE is optimal range is a calculated value that incorporates how far the gun can shoot before it starts losing damage, accuracy, and tracking speed. Long range weapons suffer from poor tracking, which means they can't rotate fast enough to hit stuff up close, but their damage reaches out very far. This gives turrets a sort of doughnut of optimal range, too close and the turret misses, too far and the damage falls off significantly. Works for Rail tanks and Turrets, but fighting infantry it would have to be different.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1561	Posted - 2014.01.16 20:21:00 - [92] - Quote NAV HIV wrote: Works for Rail tanks and Turrets, but fighting infantry it would have to be different. How is it any different? Its two units with a weapon, moving and shooting at each other. Anyways did some quick calcs in my head for your scout scenario. At 80m and a Scout sprinting a 9m/s (which I think its actually faster than top speed) sprinting at a 90 degree angle from you, you would need a rotation speed of about 6.5 degrees a second to track him. At that speed it would take a little under a minute to do a full 360 rotation while aiming down the sight.....obviously this is insanely slow and I would never suggest it to be anything near that slow. At 30m under the same conditions, you would need a rotation speed of 17 degrees a second, or about 21 seconds to rotate 360 degrees. Again, also rather slow. I'll admit I have not done the calcs to see what the actual ADS turn rate is, but I can assure you it is not nearly as slow as these calculations require. In addition, this is a scout SPRINGING tangential to your line of sight. If he is morning normally, or moving at all away or closer to you, the needed rotation speed drops drastically. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Stupid Blueberry Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 70	Posted - 2014.01.16 20:35:00 - [93] - Quote Notice that the Rail Rifle doesn't have an accuracy rating in it's info, that's because it has perfect accuracy, your shot lands where the reticle is (or would be). I think it's working as intended. How are you people being killed by Rail Rifles in CQC?
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 800	Posted - 2014.01.16 20:35:00 - [94] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: NAV HIV wrote: Works for Rail tanks and Turrets, but fighting infantry it would have to be different. How is it any different? Its two units with a weapon, moving and shooting at each other. Anyways did some quick calcs in my head for your scout scenario. At 80m and a Scout sprinting a 9m/s (which I think its actually faster than top speed) sprinting at a 90 degree angle from you, you would need a rotation speed of about 6.5 degrees a second to track him. At that speed it would take a little under a minute to do a full 360 rotation while aiming down the sight.....obviously this is insanely slow and I would never suggest it to be anything near that slow. At 30m under the same conditions, you would need a rotation speed of 17 degrees a second, or about 21 seconds to rotate 360 degrees. Again, also rather slow. I'll admit I have not done the calcs to see what the actual ADS turn rate is, but I can assure you it is not nearly as slow as these calculations require. In addition, this is a scout SPRINGING tangential to your line of sight. If he is morning normally, or moving at all away or closer to you, the needed rotation speed drops drastically. Your calculation seems quite close. Let's see if we can work something out...
Tch Tch Red Shirts Away Team 152	Posted - 2014.01.16 21:13:00 - [95] - Quote You can calulate your rate of turn by timing a full rotation. Ie standing, squatting, aiming, not aiming. You really don't need a fast rotation to keep up at long ranges. In fact over sensitive (fast) turning at range is detrimental. Turrent - the sound a tankers pants makes when he finds out the four swarm militia doing squats around him aren't AFK.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1562	Posted - 2014.01.16 21:21:00 - [96] - Quote NAV HIV wrote: Your calculation seems quite close. Let's see if we can work something out... Tell ya what, I'll get on the Oceania Server sometime on the next day or two and I'll get some recordings of various ADS turn speeds and we can get some precise calculations. I really do think that tuning down the ADS tracking speed, or rather adjusting it for all rifles, will really help to give each weapon that doughnut of optimal range I was talking about. Let me be clear, I'm not looking to nerf the RR into oblivion because of some grudge or whatever, I just want to see what can be done to give ALL rifles a clear role so that one doesn't make the other obsolete. I think minor adjustments like this can achieve this goal without gimping that weapons effectiveness at the intended ranges. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Jacques Cayton II Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 544	Posted - 2014.01.17 03:27:00 - [97] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: NAV HIV wrote: Works for Rail tanks and Turrets, but fighting infantry it would have to be different. How is it any different? Its two units with a weapon, moving and shooting at each other. Anyways did some quick calcs in my head for your scout scenario. At 80m and a Scout sprinting a 9m/s (which I think its actually faster than top speed) sprinting at a 90 degree angle from you, you would need a rotation speed of about 6.5 degrees a second to track him. At that speed it would take a little under a minute to do a full 360 rotation while aiming down the sight.....obviously this is insanely slow and I would never suggest it to be anything near that slow. At 30m under the same conditions, you would need a rotation speed of 17 degrees a second, or about 21 seconds to rotate 360 degrees. Again, also rather slow. I'll admit I have not done the calcs to see what the actual ADS turn rate is, but I can assure you it is not nearly as slow as these calculations require. In addition, this is a scout SPRINTING tangential to your line of sight. If he is moving normally, or moving at all away or closer to you, the needed rotation speed drops drastically. Guys the heavy had this and they got rid of it its not coming back We fight for the future of the State not our personal goals
Jacques Cayton II Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 544	Posted - 2014.01.17 03:30:00 - [98] - Quote Stupid Blueberry wrote: Notice that the Rail Rifle doesn't have an accuracy rating in it's info, that's because it has perfect accuracy, your shot lands where the reticle is (or would be). I think it's working as intended. How are you people being killed by Rail Rifles in CQC? They A. Stand still B. Don't strafe C. Don't find cover D. No gun game PS a+b kinda the same thing except I've seen guys just run away or straight at me which is dumb We fight for the future of the State not our personal goals
Obodiah Garro Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 525	Posted - 2014.01.17 03:32:00 - [99] - Quote Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. erm it does have terrible hip fire and heck the recoil is so bad and the devs are always on meth... i figured they just throw it a bone, if your beating dudes with it in CQC then just consider yourself skilled/lucky
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1566	Posted - 2014.01.17 03:34:00 - [100] - Quote Jacques Cayton II wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: NAV HIV wrote: Works for Rail tanks and Turrets, but fighting infantry it would have to be different. How is it any different? Its two units with a weapon, moving and shooting at each other. Anyways did some quick calcs in my head for your scout scenario. At 80m and a Scout sprinting a 9m/s (which I think its actually faster than top speed) sprinting at a 90 degree angle from you, you would need a rotation speed of about 6.5 degrees a second to track him. At that speed it would take a little under a minute to do a full 360 rotation while aiming down the sight.....obviously this is insanely slow and I would never suggest it to be anything near that slow. At 30m under the same conditions, you would need a rotation speed of 17 degrees a second, or about 21 seconds to rotate 360 degrees. Again, also rather slow. I'll admit I have not done the calcs to see what the actual ADS turn rate is, but I can assure you it is not nearly as slow as these calculations require. In addition, this is a scout SPRINTING tangential to your line of sight. If he is moving normally, or moving at all away or closer to you, the needed rotation speed drops drastically. Guys the heavy had this and they got rid of it its not coming back Incorrect. Heavies had reduced rotation speed all the time, which caused issues with movement because that speed reduction was on 100% of the time. I'm merely proposing a rotation speed reduction when aiming down the sight, completely different. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs

Jacques Cayton II Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 544	Posted - 2014.01.17 03:36:00 - [101] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Jacques Cayton II wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: NAV HIV wrote: Works for Rail tanks and Turrets, but fighting infantry it would have to be different. How is it any different? Its two units with a weapon, moving and shooting at each other. Anyways did some quick calcs in my head for your scout scenario. At 80m and a Scout sprinting a 9m/s (which I think its actually faster than top speed) sprinting at a 90 degree angle from you, you would need a rotation speed of about 6.5 degrees a second to track him. At that speed it would take a little under a minute to do a full 360 rotation while aiming down the sight.....obviously this is insanely slow and I would never suggest it to be anything near that slow. At 30m under the same conditions, you would need a rotation speed of 17 degrees a second, or about 21 seconds to rotate 360 degrees. Again, also rather slow. I'll admit I have not done the calcs to see what the actual ADS turn rate is, but I can assure you it is not nearly as slow as these calculations require. In addition, this is a scout SPRINTING tangential to your line of sight. If he is moving normally, or moving at all away or closer to you, the needed rotation speed drops drastically. Guys the heavy had this and they got rid of it its not coming back Incorrect. Heavies had reduced rotation speed all the time, which caused issues with movement because that speed reduction was on 100% of the time. I'm merely proposing a rotation speed reduction when aiming down the sight, completely different. If you remember correctly when uprising first hit hmgs couldn't turn while ads at least very fast get your facts straight We fight for the future of the State not our personal goals
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1566	Posted - 2014.01.17 03:39:00 - [102] - Quote Jacques Cayton II wrote: If you remember correctly when uprising first hit hmgs couldn't turn while ads at least very fast get your facts straight Someone is grumpy Also a weapon like the HMG should not have reduce ADS speed, that goes against the concept of close range weapons which is exactly what the HMG is. However for a long range weapon such as the Rail Rifle, it is a balancing mechanic. As I stated earlier, this is exactly how it works in EVE to much success. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Jacques Cayton II Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 544	Posted - 2014.01.17 03:43:00 - [103] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Jacques Cayton II wrote: If you remember correctly when uprising first hit hmgs couldn't turn while ads at least very fast get your facts straight Someone is grumpy Also a weapon like the HMG should not have reduce ADS speed, that goes against the concept of close range weapons which is exactly what the HMG is. However for a long range weapon such as the Rail Rifle, it is a balancing mechanic. As I stated earlier, this is exactly how it works in EVE to much success. This isn't eve ccp has made that clear also spaceships aren't infantry fights can last hours on eve or fights are in seconds. If this was eve we would be standing still shooting guns at each other for 35 min till one guy dies ( i know it's not accurate by saying 35 min but whateves) We fight for the future of the State not our personal goals
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1566	Posted - 2014.01.17 03:45:00 - [104] - Quote Jacques Cayton II wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Jacques Cayton II wrote: If you remember correctly when uprising first hit hmgs couldn't turn while ads at least very fast get your facts straight Someone is grumpy Also a weapon like the HMG should not have reduce ADS speed, that goes against the concept of close range weapons which is exactly what the HMG is. However for a long range weapon such as the Rail Rifle, it is a balancing mechanic. As I stated earlier, this is exactly how it works in EVE to much success. This isn't eve ccp has made that clear also spaceships aren't infantry fights can last hours on eve or fights are in seconds. If this was eve we would be standing still shooting guns at each other for 35 min till one guy dies ( i know it's not accurate by saying 35 min but whateves) So you feel that the rail rifle should be effective at all ranges and the other rifles only effective at limited ranges? 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Jacques Cayton II Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 544	Posted - 2014.01.17 03:47:00 - [105] - Quote The thing is its not cqc it's garbage. Increase the charge up time to .5 if it'll make you happy We fight for the future of the State not our personal goals
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1566	Posted - 2014.01.17 03:48:00 - [106] - Quote I get plenty of kills at CQC with it and I'm a terrible shot. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Tch Tch Red Shirts Away Team 158	Posted - 2014.01.17 03:50:00 - [107] - Quote Jacques Cayton II wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Jacques Cayton II wrote: If you remember correctly when uprising first hit hmgs couldn't turn while ads at least very fast get your facts straight Someone is grumpy Also a weapon like the HMG should not have reduce ADS speed, that goes against the concept of close range weapons which is exactly what the HMG is. However for a long range weapon such as the Rail Rifle, it is a balancing mechanic. As I stated earlier, this is exactly how it works in EVE to much success. This isn't eve ccp has made that clear also spaceships aren't infantry fights can last hours on eve or fights are in seconds. If this was eve we would be standing still shooting guns at each other for 35 min till one guy dies ( i know it's not accurate by saying 35 min but whateves) Eve combat is on rails and the ability to hit is your character and turrets abilities. You select a target and upto eight turrets will fire at it and the game calculates if you hit. Turrent - the sound a tankers pants makes when he finds out the four swarm militia doing squats around him aren't AFK.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1566	Posted - 2014.01.17 03:55:00 - [108] - Quote And the reason EVE Rail turrets can't hit things up close is because they have **** poor tracking speed, meaning they will frequently miss targets that are orbiting (strafing) at short range. You can argue all you want that "Dust isnt EVE" but the concepts come from the same source and thus would need to be balanced in the same way. Rail turrets on tanks are handled the same way. You can literally drive faster than the rail can track you at close range, meaning that in a vehicle strafing situation, the rail turret has a minimum range. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Kal Kronos L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 163	Posted - 2014.01.17 04:01:00 - [109] - Quote Quit acting like only one weapon is better in cqc than it should, currently there are 3 the RR being the least of these 3. Ttk of each, scr too short to guestimate, cr around .5-1 sec, RR right around 1-1.5. Adjust up or down for heavies/logis and scouts. What's not to love about the scrambler rifle, the thing is a precision weapon and at the same time a shotgun.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1567	Posted - 2014.01.17 04:06:00 - [110] - Quote I don't think anyone was saying its the only weapon that is too effective at CQC, but this topic is specifically about the RR 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs

Tectonic Fusion 974	Posted - 2014.01.17 04:07:00 - [111] - Quote *Pokey Dravon[ wrote: Increase Charge Time Slightly - The Charge time plays a much larger role in close quarters than it does at long range, by increasing the time it will be harder to fight up close. Nothing significant but a couple tenths of a second longer would be appropriate. Only thing that it needs. But it should have the charge time of a rail gun turret so if you flank them, they are totally helpless. Also the other stuff you posted will make it totally almost useless. And it's tracking speed is already really slow. Solo Player Squad status: Locked**
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 689	Posted - 2014.01.17 04:10:00 - [112] - Quote GLOBAL RAGE wrote: I'm with JL on this one. CCP calls systems RIFLES when they are actually GUNS. The feet per second that these rounds are traveling at, if rifle twist @ 1:10 the round would have been spun up to over 500,000 RPM- they would disintegrate in flight. In gun theory a plasma envelope would help in aero stability, and using light weight metal impregnated ceramic pellets would work in a coil gun creating the kinetic energy needed without recoil. The velocity that most of DUST's weapons produce infer that the breach/chamber psi would have to be over 150,000 psi (explosive propelled ) , making the light weapons very heavy due to barrel weight. ya ya invisible aluminium ....lol! JL's physics teacher is Uncle Sam, how's life in the Shadow of Mt. Ranier? Peace/out-from sunny Tampa Good to hear from you, Rage. I'm still in the area but on short trip at the behest of my physics teacher. The majority of my work ref. rail gun or novel kinetic penetrators was on the operational capabilities requirements and applied sciences end not really raw physics. I actually found the use fo the charge up time to be pretty interesting by CCP. One of the biggest problems with practical application of rail gun technology in current form is surge capability from capacitors. We can generate the appropriate levels of power for vehicle mounted systems and use the energy once delivered, however, delivering the surge required was always the longest pole in the tent. Effectively the micro-charge on the RR kinda simulates the load and dump of the capacitor systems...probably totally by accident but it's kinda neat. Look me up in game and shoot me your channel and we'll sqd up. "Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1567	Posted - 2014.01.17 04:11:00 - [113] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: *Pokey Dravon[ wrote:** Increase Charge Time Slightly - The Charge time plays a much larger role in close quarters than it does at long range, by increasing the time it will be harder to fight up close. Nothing significant but a couple tenths of a second longer would be appropriate. Only thing that it needs. But it should have the charge time of a rail gun turret so if you flank them, they are totally helpless. Also the other stuff you posted will make it totally almost useless. And it's tracking speed is already really slow. Well at least we can agree to disagree In all reality its difficult to really make any concrete claims about balance since we can't personally test these suggestions ourselves, so in the end its mostly speculation. Theory crafting is fun though. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 689	Posted - 2014.01.17 04:53:00 - [114] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Well here is the issue, it has to be stable and accurate to hit from far away, but that advantage is also reflecting onto the hip-fire as well, making it extremely powerful at close range. There are a couple factors you can play with here so I'll give my opinion of how to tweak the RR to make it less effective at close range but retain its advantage at long range. Increase Charge Time Slightly - The Charge time plays a much larger role in close quarters than it does at long range, by increasing the time it will be harder to fight up close. Nothing significant but a couple tenths of a second longer would be appropriate. Significantly increase recoil when fired from the hip - This gun should kick like a mule when fired from the hip. The dispersion should remain tight, but the recoil should be difficult to work with. Decrease turn speed when aiming down the sight (ADS)- Tracking speed isn't very critical when fighting from range, but it is critical up close. Reducing ADS tracking speed would prevent players from aiming down the sight to avoid the recoil at close range, but not hinder tracking at long range. Pokey...I normally think you are spot on with your comments, however, I have to disagree with you a bit on this front. You know I'm a pretty dedicated rail rifle operator and i've used it exclusivley since they were introduced. My point is not that I'm a "protect my weapon at all costs guy" but a more that the RR supports the Caldari style that I want to play. Also...and I think this is key...I've got an average gun game and the RR keeps me honest as far as the intended use. Any varsity player can make just about any weapon seem "OP" and therefore they need a nerf. Increasing charge time: Totally disagree with this. During testing the charge time was already increased once from .2 to .25sec to offset advantages of the weapon. I can tell you from my experience the RR is a dicey CQC weapon against an evenly matched player. I find myself often having to switch to my SMG when in tighter quarters already. You can manage a single target in CQC with some practice at shaping the engagement but when you have don't have the initiative or you are facing mulitple targets...the RR drops in effectiveness dramatically. Increase in hipfire recoil: This might be a good solution if there if CCP final determines an adjustment to the RR is needed. I'm entirely sold on it to be honest because the RR does have some pretty serious recoil already...without the 25% recoil reduction at Lvl V this thing does in fact kick like a mule and is pretty unwieldy to use. I don't mind mitigating weapon drawbacks with SP investment and that's pretty much what this did. Decrease ADS tracking: Interesting idea but not sure how that plays out. You end up nerfing a bit of what is the intended strength of weapon. To be clear, not saying its a bad idea...I'm just not sure how it would effect things with different variables like X/Y sensitivity settings and target tracking at range. ............................ As far as a role for the rail rifle it dials in exactly on the Caldari style of the the mid to long range shooter that can support a squad and actually supports and enables a pure shield tanking style. With even tier weapons and players the Rail does come up short against the AR...period. With variations of player skill, weapon tiers, and damage mods I'm not sure I can say that any weapon is where it needs to be in terms of balance. I do know that player skill is always the ulitmate trump card...a whole lot of proto weapon and drop suit users get killed by militia weapons and BPO suits. "Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 689	Posted - 2014.01.17 05:11:00 - [115] - Quote Tch Tch wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Tch Tch wrote: Eko Sol wrote: I just want to throw this out there but, technically, the RR wouldn't have typical recoil. It would have equal dispersal to the outside of the weapon. This means that there would actually be zero recoil in the reverse of the direction of the projectile. Again, it would go out to the "sides" of the rifle but since it is even it will appear non-existent and not affect aim. I say this to prove the point that this is a game and so they made recoil against all of physics. Just like dropping a tank on top of a tower over 150m in the air and being able to shoot at better than 45 degree angles downward from a 90 degree flat and parallel land/tile. It's a game. Let it be a game first and then accurate later. About the hip shooting. Here is another interesting fact. if you train a person who has never fired a weapon 20 hours how to fire down the sight using the eye and 20 hours from the hip they are more accurate from the hip. This goes for hand guns though...not rifles (at least not to my knowledge). It's a game. Interested why the rail rifle wouldn't have typical recoil as per Newton's Three Laws. The bullets going out would have a momentum. The rifle would have an equal momentum backwards ie recoil. If you could fire fast enough you would have a rocket engine. That's not accurate. I helped work on some actual railgun projects previously and one of the primary advantages is that they have essentially no recoil at all which is an advantage in target tracking and 2nd shot engagement. Rail guns impel the projectile by using magnetic coils or rails actived in sucession to hyper accelerate a kinetic penetrator. Normal projectile firearms have a recoil because their is a essentially a controlled explosion inside the weapon that powers the projectile downrange. The larger caliber / higher power round has a proportionally larger "explosion" thus creating the higher level of recoil. http://www.utexas.edu/research/cem/IEEE/PR%2052%20Weldon%20Publications.pdf Conservation of Momentum or "Why Homer won't allow perputal motion machines in his house." The paper was written in '86. My experience in category is from 2010 and on. The short answer is the modern kinetic delivery systems use a bit of a different system and frankly have come a long way. There is force generated but not in the style of classic projectile weapons. Imagine the projectile passing through magnetized coils or rails...the equal but opposite reaction is actually pushing back against the rail coils and not the weapon breach. What this effectively does is cause the barrel to wear out extrodinarly quickly due to the forces involved and heat generated from accelerating hypervelocity projectiles. Basically...you don't get "recoil' transmitted to the user but the weapon will generate significant heat and degrade preformance until failure very quickly depending on the robustness of the matierals used. "Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 690	Posted - 2014.01.18 16:10:00 - [116] - Quote Bump "Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."
Charlotte O'Dell Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 1648	Posted - 2014.01.18 16:16:00 - [117] - Quote the rail rifle is fine. stop the qq, whiners. Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 690	Posted - 2014.01.18 16:25:00 - [118] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: the rail rifle is fine. stop the qq, whiners. Lol...you said it better and faster than I did. "Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."
GLOBAL RAGE Consolidated Dust 18	Posted - 2014.02.13 14:45:00 - [119] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: GLOBAL RAGE wrote: I'm with JL on this one. CCP calls systems RIFLES when they are actually GUNS. The feet per second that these rounds are traveling at, if rifle twist @ 1:10 the round would have been spun up to over 500,000 RPM- they would disintegrate in flight. In gun theory a plasma envelope would help in aero stability, and using light weight metal impregnated ceramic pellets would work in a coil gun creating the kinetic energy needed without recoil. The velocity that most of DUST's weapons produce infer that the breach/chamber psi would have to be over 150,000 psi (explosive propelled ) , making the light weapons very heavy due to barrel weight. ya ya invisible aluminium ....lol! JL's physics teacher is Uncle Sam, how's life in the Shadow of Mt. Ranier? Peace/out-from sunny Tampa Good to hear from you, Rage. I'm still in the area but on short trip at the behest of my physics teacher. The majority of my work ref. rail gun or novel kinetic penetrators was on the operational capabilities requirements and applied sciences end not really raw physics. I actually found the use fo the charge up time to be pretty interesting by CCP. One of the biggest problems with practical application of rail gun technology in current form is surge capability from capacitors. We can generate the appropriate levels of power for vehicle mounted systems and use the energy once delivered, however, delivering the surge required was always the longest pole in the tent. Effectively the micro-charge on the RR kinda simulates the load and dump of the capacitor systems...probably totally by accident but it's kinda neat. Look me up in game and shoot me your channel and we'll sqd up. The use of carbon nano tubes in layers looks like the capacitor holy grail for electron storage. The ability to produce sheets of carbon nano film, adhesives and the right rare earth elements are missing, but research goes on. FSU and Harvard Med. are looking at acid baths similar to those used in protein research. Looks like Big Blue will have their Destroyer platform online soon, squids got the juice..lol Peace/out
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1363	Posted - 2014.02.13 14:51:00 - [120] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: the rail rifle is fine. stop the qq, whiners. Maybe the Ar just needs a buff then, it'll be fine with the same range as the rr right, that's completely balanced right? "Always fight dirty, the victor writes history" Eve toon: Drake Doe, professional hero tackler, full time pretzel boy

Sam Tektzby Better Hide R Die 140	Posted - 2014.02.13 15:01:00 - [121] - Quote Nope i told that many times before and tell that many times more. Gaussie is perfectly fine. I was many times put down by ARs, SMGs, with Shotguns or with MGs. Rail Rifle is balanced and honestly if someone cant kill me with AR i thing its not problem or AR but its issue of hands who shooting it. Because AR is more stable and faster. Gaussie have advantage on range and power, how it should be by lore (its caldari weapon). Its easy: AR - Reliable/Stable/Fast RR - Powerfull/LongerRanged Support - Tactician/Support Deteis - Orator
GLOBAL RAGE Consolidated Dust 18	Posted - 2014.02.13 15:08:00 - [122] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: Charlotte O'Dell wrote: the rail rifle is fine. stop the qq, whiners. Maybe the Ar just needs a buff then, it'll be fine with the same range as the rr right, that's completely balanced right? I personally would like playstyle balance, but until we get racial suit unity i.e. Caldari with RR vs Gallente with AR-CCP cannot balance. With this in mind keeping the RR with todays damage and range specifications into 1.8, with an increase in reload time, as the NERF, makes sense in regards to the ccp proposed racial bonus of reload speed for CAL suits. So any bonus to making suit/weapon/RACE balance i'm 100% behind. you can back the lore up with the above, because the suits operating systems would be different and secured security would effect a weapons operation.
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1363	Posted - 2014.02.13 15:13:00 - [123] - Quote Sam Tektzby wrote: Nope i told that many times before and tell that many times more. Gaussie is perfectly fine. I was many times put down by ARs, SMGs, with Shotguns or with MGs. Rail Rifle is balanced and honestly if someone cant kill me with AR i thing its not problem or AR but its issue of hands who shooting it. Because AR is more stable and faster. Gaussie have advantage on range and power, how it should be by lore (its caldari weapon). Its easy: AR - Reliable/Stable/Fast RR - Powerfull/LongerRanged Lore wise railguns put out much less damage in exchange for range, most ships about double in dps switching from rails to blasters. The recoil is almost identical, if not more controllable on the rr because of it's lower rate of fire, and the ar's faster rof is compensated by the rr's high damage per shot. "Always fight dirty, the victor writes history" Eve toon: Drake Doe, professional hero tackler, full time pretzel boy
Asha Starwind VEXALATION CORPORATION Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage 361	Posted - 2014.02.13 15:17:00 - [124] - Quote It does, just turn AA off. 32db Mad Bomber.
GLOBAL RAGE Consolidated Dust 18	Posted - 2014.02.13 15:18:00 - [125] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: Sam Tektzby wrote: Nope i told that many times before and tell that many times more. Gaussie is perfectly fine. I was many times put down by ARs, SMGs, with Shotguns or with MGs. Rail Rifle is balanced and honestly if someone cant kill me with AR i thing its not problem or AR but its issue of hands who shooting it. Because AR is more stable and faster. Gaussie have advantage on range and power, how it should be by lore (its caldari weapon). Its easy: AR - Reliable/Stable/Fast RR - Powerfull/LongerRanged Lore wise railguns put out much less damage in exchange for range, most ships about double in dps switching from rails to blasters. The recoil is almost identical, if not more controllable on the rr because of it's lower rate of fire, and the ar's faster rof is compensated by the rr's high damage per shot. large platform rail weapons in RL have minimal recoil.
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1363	Posted - 2014.02.13 15:19:00 - [126] - Quote GLOBAL RAGE wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: Charlotte O'Dell wrote: the rail rifle is fine. stop the qq, whiners. Maybe the Ar just needs a buff then, it'll be fine with the same range as the rr right, that's completely balanced right? I personally would like playstyle balance, but until we get racial suit unity i.e. Caldari with RR vs Gallente with AR-CCP cannot balance. With this in mind keeping the RR with todays damage and range specifications into 1.8, with an increase in reload time makes sense in regards to the ccp proposed racial bonus of reload speed for CAL suits. So any bonus to making suit/weapon/RACE balance i'm 100% behind. you can back the lore up with the above, because the suits operating systems would be different and secured security would effect a weapons operation. Actually devs have already stated that the damage is the,problem and it's being reduced next build, and reload speed isn't a very reliable balance point for the rail rifle's stats, just like how the charge is. Racial unity definitely takes a backseat to base stats, unless the bonuses are high enough to balance it. "Always fight dirty, the victor writes history" Eve toon: Drake Doe, professional hero tackler, full time pretzel boy
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1363	Posted - 2014.02.13 15:20:00 - [127] - Quote GLOBAL RAGE wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: Sam Tektzby wrote: Nope i told that many times before and tell that many times more. Gaussie is perfectly fine. I was many times put down by ARs, SMGs, with Shotguns or with MGs. Rail Rifle is balanced and honestly if someone cant kill me with AR i thing its not problem or AR but its issue of hands who shooting it. Because AR is more stable and faster. Gaussie have advantage on range and power, how it should be by lore (its caldari weapon). Its easy: AR - Reliable/Stable/Fast RR - Powerfull/LongerRanged Lore wise railguns put out much less damage in exchange for range, most ships about double in dps switching from rails to blasters. The recoil is almost identical, if not more controllable on the rr because of it's lower rate of fire, and the ar's faster rof is compensated by the rr's high damage per shot. large platform rail weapons in RL have minimal recoil. Rl < balance, and a rifle isn't exactly a large platform. "Always fight dirty, the victor writes history" Eve toon: Drake Doe, professional hero tackler, full time pretzel boy
GLOBAL RAGE Consolidated Dust 18	Posted - 2014.02.13 15:24:00 - [128] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: GLOBAL RAGE wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: Charlotte O'Dell wrote: the rail rifle is fine. stop the qq, whiners. Maybe the Ar just needs a buff then, it'll be fine with the same range as the rr right, that's completely balanced right? I personally would like playstyle balance, but until we get racial suit unity i.e. Caldari with RR vs Gallente with AR-CCP cannot balance. With this in mind keeping the RR with todays damage and range specifications into 1.8, with an increase in reload time makes sense in regards to the ccp proposed racial bonus of reload speed for CAL suits. So any bonus to making suit/weapon/RACE balance i'm 100% behind. you can back the lore up with the above, because the suits operating systems would be different and secured security would effect a weapons operation. Actually devs have already stated that the damage is the,problem and it's being reduced next build, and reload speed isn't a very reliable balance point for the rail rifle's stats, just like how the charge is. Racial unity definitely takes a backseat to base stats, unless the bonuses are high enough to balance it. the bonuses should be made to offset a considerable increase to reload speed aka reload nerf. CCP wants to put we Caldari out on the street with gimped weapons vs snipers and tanks..lol
GLOBAL RAGE Consolidated Dust 18	Posted - 2014.02.13 15:33:00 - [129] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: GLOBAL RAGE wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: Sam Tektzby wrote: Nope i told that many times before and tell that many times more. Gaussie is perfectly fine. I was many times put down by ARs, SMGs, with Shotguns or with MGs. Rail Rifle is balanced and honestly if someone cant kill me with AR i thing its not problem or AR but its issue of hands who shooting it. Because AR is more stable and faster. Gaussie have advantage on range and power, how it should be by lore (its caldari weapon). Its easy: AR - Reliable/Stable/Fast RR - Powerfull/LongerRanged Lore wise railguns put out much less damage in exchange for range, most ships about double in dps switching from rails to blasters. The recoil is almost identical, if not more controllable on the rr because of it's lower rate of fire, and the ar's faster rof is compensated by the rr's high damage per shot. large platform rail weapons in RL have minimal recoil. Rl < balance, and a rifle isn't exactly a large platform. my point being if it does not recoil it doesn't recoil. The physic's stay constant with scale, and in RL it's a 155mm round traveling over 200 miles with minimal recoil.
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1363	Posted - 2014.02.13 17:03:00 - [130] - Quote GLOBAL RAGE wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: GLOBAL RAGE wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: Sam Tektzby wrote: Nope i told that many times before and tell that many times more. Gaussie is perfectly fine. I was many times put down by ARs, SMGs, with Shotguns or with MGs. Rail Rifle is balanced and honestly if someone cant kill me with AR i thing its not problem or AR but its issue of hands who shooting it. Because AR is more stable and faster. Gaussie have advantage on range and power, how it should be by lore (its caldari weapon). Its easy: AR - Reliable/Stable/Fast RR - Powerfull/LongerRanged Lore wise railguns put out much less damage in exchange for range, most ships about double in dps switching from rails to blasters. The recoil is almost identical, if not more controllable on the rr because of it's lower rate of fire, and the ar's faster rof is compensated by the rr's high damage per shot. large platform rail weapons in RL have minimal recoil. Rl < balance, and a rifle isn't exactly a large platform. my point being if it does not recoil it doesn't recoil. The physic's stay constant with scale, and in RL it's a 155mm round traveling over 200 miles with minimal recoil. in outer space, without atmospheric pressure to overcome it would be easier. So you argue that the ar is more stable yet you say the rr should have next to no recoil, it's obvious that you have no sense of balance. "Always fight dirty, the victor writes history" Eve toon: Drake Doe, professional hero tackler, full time pretzel boy

GLOBAL RAGE Consolidated Dust 18	Posted - 2014.02.13 18:38:00 - [131] - Quote To: Vermin DOE. Hey kid here is some lifes advice, make sure your correct before you insult someone. I never argued for nor against any AR attribute.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 742	Posted - 2014.02.14 02:00:00 - [132] - Quote This escalated fairly sharply. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2975	Posted - 2014.02.14 02:03:00 - [133] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Well here is the issue, it has to be stable and accurate to hit from far away, but that advantage is also reflecting onto the hip-fire as well, making it extremely powerful at close range. There are a couple factors you can play with here so I'll give my opinion of how to tweak the RR to make it less effective at close range but retain its advantage at long range. Increase Charge Time Slightly - The Charge time plays a much larger role in close quarters than it does at long range, by increasing the time it will be harder to fight up close. Nothing significant but a couple tenths of a second longer would be appropriate. Significantly increase recoil when fired from the hip - This gun should kick like a mule when fired from the hip. The dispersion should remain tight, but the recoil should be difficult to work with. Decrease turn speed when aiming down the sight (ADS)- Tracking speed isn't very critical when fighting from range, but it is critical up close. Reducing ADS tracking speed would prevent players from aiming down the sight to avoid the recoil at close range, but not hinder tracking at long range. For those who don't know: The RR charges up more 2x Faster than Proto Nova Knives. Yeah. Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p TRA1LBLAZERS 554	Posted - 2014.02.14 02:59:00 - [134] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. Shouldnt ALL Rifles have terrible hipfire? At least compared to SMG's and Shotguns? yes Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Kurenai Senshi Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 0	Posted - 2014.04.14 19:58:00 - [135] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Well here is the issue, it has to be stable and accurate to hit from far away, but that advantage is also reflecting onto the hip-fire as well, making it extremely powerful at close range. There are a couple factors you can play with here so I'll give my opinion of how to tweak the RR to make it less effective at close range but retain its advantage at long range. Increase Charge Time Slightly - The Charge time plays a much larger role in close quarters than it does at long range, by increasing the time it will be harder to fight up close. Nothing significant but a couple tenths of a second longer would be appropriate. Significantly increase recoil when fired from the hip - This gun should kick like a mule when fired from the hip. The dispersion should remain tight, but the recoil should be difficult to work with. Decrease turn speed when aiming down the sight (ADS)- Tracking speed isn't very critical when fighting from range, but it is critical up close. Reducing ADS tracking speed would prevent players from aiming down the sight to avoid the recoil at close range, but not hinder tracking at long range. You suck it will unbalance the game so if this does happen to the rail rifle all the other weapons should have like 10 damage or 20 seconds charge time or fast overheating
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 2772	Posted - 2014.04.14 19:59:00 - [136] - Quote Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. yep weRideNDie2getha since 2010
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5104	Posted - 2014.04.14 21:48:00 - [137] - Quote A question for the people who think it's a good idea to reduce turn speed while aiming down sights... I know turret tracking speed in EVE works like this, but it's about turrets mounted on spaceships. I know turret tracking speed on vehicles in DUST works like this, but it's about turrets mounted on vehicles. Where exactly in the lore can you find a reason why your enhanced super-soldier would magically turn slower while holding one particular light weapon than s/he can while holding a different gun in the same class? And more importantly, where exactly in the lore can you find a reason why a person holding a gun and firing without aiming down sights would be capable of turning faster than THE SAME PERSON using THE SAME WEAPON but with their eye to the scope on the weapon? It's not that the mechanics don't work elsewhere. It's that they don't make any logical sense at all in the context of infantry combat. By all means, make the Rail Rifle less effective for CQC. Maybe they could have a minimum effective range, with the explanation that the projectile heats up and converts to plasma after leaving the barrel, and before the friction from its hyper-accelerated movement kicks it into a plasma state, the physical impact is less damaging than the plasma charge it turns into. This mechanic could be applied to ALL rail-based weapons, making them less damaging within their minimum range, but then they could deal full damage from that point out to maximum range, effectively operating in a reverse manner to the optimal/effective/maximum range process other weapons work by.
CRNWLLC Screwy Rabbit ULC 196	Posted - 2014.04.14 22:02:00 - [138] - Quote The RR is basically the SR's little sibling--it fires sabots at almost Mach 7. That's absolutely fricken insane--it sure as heck better kick! On this note, the fact that it comes default with full-auto, after the initial charge, is bunk. Is the logic here that somehow, after charging the capacitor what, about 1/3 of a second, there's enough juice to empty a clip? The RR, like the CR, should not be full-auto by default. There should be a full-auto variant, to be sure, but by default it should fire like the tactical AR (semi-auto, maybe the logic is that the capacitor recharges between each trigger pull). Or if this would lead to too much QQ, it needs to have a ROF that's, at best, about 120 RPM. By all means, increase it's DPS, just make applying that DPS more difficult. My other dropsuit is a Python.
Delanus Turgias Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 383	Posted - 2014.04.15 00:18:00 - [139] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Reiki Jubo wrote: Its recoil is really noticeable but I noticed the other night that its actually better if you hip-fire it. Its a long range weapon, right? shouldnt the hipfire be horrible then? I like the weapon but its another tac ar if the hipfire is good. No. At the contrary it's supposed to be the weapon with the best hip fire of all rifles. (See the "breach" descriptions of AR.) Rail rifle is the Breach Version of rifles. => Low ROF and bigger recoil but really good hip-fire pretty crap range and average damage. FTFY All other breach weapons have terrible range. This is the problem of the RR. It has all the benefits of Breach weapons, and yet lacks the range weakness. SOURCE: Try taking on targets at STD AR range with a Breach AR. Talk about damage dropoff. Apparently Breach AR used to have much more range. Then it had the sht nerfed out of it. Ah yes, the forgotten terror that was the Creodron Breach Assault Rifle. You see, even before the first advent of the Tac AR (not the one in Uprising, before that one), the most powerful weapon on the field was the Creodron Breach AR. This was back in the days when ARs still had scopes, and the Creodron Breach has both long range and extreme damage, with only a minor fire rate decrease to hold it back. Thus, people abused the *** out of it, far more than Rail Rifles and far worse than Laser Rifles with Sharpshooter Prof 5. Then CCP nerfed it into the ground and no one ever spoke of it again. Closed Beta Vet since May, 2012 TEST Alliance Best Alliance Proud owner of essentially every BPO in Dust


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