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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
687
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Posted - 2014.01.16 04:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
Tch Tch wrote:Eko Sol wrote:I just want to throw this out there but, technically, the RR wouldn't have typical recoil. It would have equal dispersal to the outside of the weapon. This means that there would actually be zero recoil in the reverse of the direction of the projectile. Again, it would go out to the "sides" of the rifle but since it is even it will appear non-existent and not affect aim.
I say this to prove the point that this is a game and so they made recoil against all of physics. Just like dropping a tank on top of a tower over 150m in the air and being able to shoot at better than 45 degree angles downward from a 90 degree flat and parallel land/tile.
It's a game. Let it be a game first and then accurate later.
About the hip shooting. Here is another interesting fact. if you train a person who has never fired a weapon 20 hours how to fire down the sight using the eye and 20 hours from the hip they are more accurate from the hip. This goes for hand guns though...not rifles (at least not to my knowledge).
It's a game.
Interested why the rail rifle wouldn't have typical recoil as per Newton's Three Laws. The bullets going out would have a momentum. The rifle would have an equal momentum backwards ie recoil. If you could fire fast enough you would have a rocket engine.
That's not accurate. I helped work on some actual railgun projects previously and one of the primary advantages is that they have essentially no recoil at all which is an advantage in target tracking and 2nd shot engagement.
Rail guns impel the projectile by using magnetic coils or rails actived in sucession to hyper accelerate a kinetic penetrator. Normal projectile firearms have a recoil because their is a essentially a controlled explosion inside the weapon that powers the projectile downrange. The larger caliber / higher power round has a proportionally larger "explosion" thus creating the higher level of recoil.
"Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
687
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 04:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
Eko Sol wrote:Tch Tch wrote:Eko Sol wrote:I just want to throw this out there but, technically, the RR wouldn't have typical recoil. It would have equal dispersal to the outside of the weapon. This means that there would actually be zero recoil in the reverse of the direction of the projectile. Again, it would go out to the "sides" of the rifle but since it is even it will appear non-existent and not affect aim.
I say this to prove the point that this is a game and so they made recoil against all of physics. Just like dropping a tank on top of a tower over 150m in the air and being able to shoot at better than 45 degree angles downward from a 90 degree flat and parallel land/tile.
It's a game. Let it be a game first and then accurate later.
About the hip shooting. Here is another interesting fact. if you train a person who has never fired a weapon 20 hours how to fire down the sight using the eye and 20 hours from the hip they are more accurate from the hip. This goes for hand guns though...not rifles (at least not to my knowledge).
It's a game.
Interested why the rail rifle wouldn't have typical recoil as per Newton's Three Laws. The bullets going out would have a momentum. The rifle would have an equal momentum backwards ie recoil. If you could fire fast enough you would have a rocket engine. You would not. Lauching a projectile via a "Rail" mechanism involves complex electro-magnetic math where the forward force is generated from at a perpendicular angle and NOT from behind the projectile. I don't explain physics on forums but I'll try to summarize it in a sentence. The force applied is electro-magnetic and the "recoil" would happen on the projectile in the reverse direction and thus a perpendicular force would have a perpindicular recoil. In addition, Newtonian Physics applies to mostly gravity and not thermodynamics, electro-magnetism, and quantum physics. Newtonian physics is also just algebra where as modern spacetime and gravity physics is calculus. Go talk with your physics teacher if you have one. EDIT: Perpendicular to the axis in which you are aiming the projectile.
You are partially correct. A single is projectile is normally impelled by a series of rings or rails along the barrel that are actived in sequential order which effectively accelerates the projectile to terminal velocity by "passing" the projective from ring to ring with increasine velocity. If it were were single magnetic impulsion then your that invovled repellent magentic force there would be some validity to your theory. To my knowledge, none the functional rail systems use anything remote like that kind of system.
"Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
689
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 04:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
GLOBAL RAGE wrote:
I'm with JL on this one. CCP calls systems RIFLES when they are actually GUNS. The feet per second that these rounds are traveling at, if rifle twist @ 1:10 the round would have been spun up to over 500,000 RPM- they would disintegrate in flight. In gun theory a plasma envelope would help in aero stability, and using light weight metal impregnated ceramic pellets would work in a coil gun creating the kinetic energy needed without recoil. The velocity that most of DUST's weapons produce infer that the breach/chamber psi would have to be over 150,000 psi (explosive propelled ) , making the light weapons very heavy due to barrel weight. ya ya invisible aluminium ....lol!
JL's physics teacher is Uncle Sam, how's life in the Shadow of Mt. Ranier?
Peace/out-from sunny Tampa
Good to hear from you, Rage. I'm still in the area but on short trip at the behest of my physics teacher. 
The majority of my work ref. rail gun or novel kinetic penetrators was on the operational capabilities requirements and applied sciences end not really raw physics. I actually found the use fo the charge up time to be pretty interesting by CCP. One of the biggest problems with practical application of rail gun technology in current form is surge capability from capacitors. We can generate the appropriate levels of power for vehicle mounted systems and use the energy once delivered, however, delivering the surge required was always the longest pole in the tent. Effectively the micro-charge on the RR kinda simulates the load and dump of the capacitor systems...probably totally by accident but it's kinda neat.
Look me up in game and shoot me your channel and we'll sqd up.
"Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
689
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Posted - 2014.01.17 04:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Well here is the issue, it has to be stable and accurate to hit from far away, but that advantage is also reflecting onto the hip-fire as well, making it extremely powerful at close range. There are a couple factors you can play with here so I'll give my opinion of how to tweak the RR to make it less effective at close range but retain its advantage at long range.
- Increase Charge Time Slightly - The Charge time plays a much larger role in close quarters than it does at long range, by increasing the time it will be harder to fight up close. Nothing significant but a couple tenths of a second longer would be appropriate.
- Significantly increase recoil when fired from the hip - This gun should kick like a mule when fired from the hip. The dispersion should remain tight, but the recoil should be difficult to work with.
- Decrease turn speed when aiming down the sight (ADS)- Tracking speed isn't very critical when fighting from range, but it is critical up close. Reducing ADS tracking speed would prevent players from aiming down the sight to avoid the recoil at close range, but not hinder tracking at long range.
Pokey...I normally think you are spot on with your comments, however, I have to disagree with you a bit on this front. You know I'm a pretty dedicated rail rifle operator and i've used it exclusivley since they were introduced. My point is not that I'm a "protect my weapon at all costs guy" but a more that the RR supports the Caldari style that I want to play. Also...and I think this is key...I've got an average gun game and the RR keeps me honest as far as the intended use. Any varsity player can make just about any weapon seem "OP" and therefore they need a nerf.
Increasing charge time: Totally disagree with this. During testing the charge time was already increased once from .2 to .25sec to offset advantages of the weapon. I can tell you from my experience the RR is a dicey CQC weapon against an evenly matched player. I find myself often having to switch to my SMG when in tighter quarters already. You can manage a single target in CQC with some practice at shaping the engagement but when you have don't have the initiative or you are facing mulitple targets...the RR drops in effectiveness dramatically.
Increase in hipfire recoil: This might be a good solution if there if CCP final determines an adjustment to the RR is needed. I'm entirely sold on it to be honest because the RR does have some pretty serious recoil already...without the 25% recoil reduction at Lvl V this thing does in fact kick like a mule and is pretty unwieldy to use. I don't mind mitigating weapon drawbacks with SP investment and that's pretty much what this did.
Decrease ADS tracking: Interesting idea but not sure how that plays out. You end up nerfing a bit of what is the intended strength of weapon. To be clear, not saying its a bad idea...I'm just not sure how it would effect things with different variables like X/Y sensitivity settings and target tracking at range.
............................
As far as a role for the rail rifle it dials in exactly on the Caldari style of the the mid to long range shooter that can support a squad and actually supports and enables a pure shield tanking style. With even tier weapons and players the Rail does come up short against the AR...period.
With variations of player skill, weapon tiers, and damage mods I'm not sure I can say that any weapon is where it needs to be in terms of balance. I do know that player skill is always the ulitmate trump card...a whole lot of proto weapon and drop suit users get killed by militia weapons and BPO suits.
"Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
689
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 05:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tch Tch wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Tch Tch wrote:Eko Sol wrote:I just want to throw this out there but, technically, the RR wouldn't have typical recoil. It would have equal dispersal to the outside of the weapon. This means that there would actually be zero recoil in the reverse of the direction of the projectile. Again, it would go out to the "sides" of the rifle but since it is even it will appear non-existent and not affect aim.
I say this to prove the point that this is a game and so they made recoil against all of physics. Just like dropping a tank on top of a tower over 150m in the air and being able to shoot at better than 45 degree angles downward from a 90 degree flat and parallel land/tile.
It's a game. Let it be a game first and then accurate later.
About the hip shooting. Here is another interesting fact. if you train a person who has never fired a weapon 20 hours how to fire down the sight using the eye and 20 hours from the hip they are more accurate from the hip. This goes for hand guns though...not rifles (at least not to my knowledge).
It's a game.
Interested why the rail rifle wouldn't have typical recoil as per Newton's Three Laws. The bullets going out would have a momentum. The rifle would have an equal momentum backwards ie recoil. If you could fire fast enough you would have a rocket engine. That's not accurate. I helped work on some actual railgun projects previously and one of the primary advantages is that they have essentially no recoil at all which is an advantage in target tracking and 2nd shot engagement. Rail guns impel the projectile by using magnetic coils or rails actived in sucession to hyper accelerate a kinetic penetrator. Normal projectile firearms have a recoil because their is a essentially a controlled explosion inside the weapon that powers the projectile downrange. The larger caliber / higher power round has a proportionally larger "explosion" thus creating the higher level of recoil. http://www.utexas.edu/research/cem/IEEE/PR%2052%20Weldon%20Publications.pdfConservation of Momentum or "Why Homer won't allow perputal motion machines in his house."
The paper was written in '86. My experience in category is from 2010 and on. The short answer is the modern kinetic delivery systems use a bit of a different system and frankly have come a long way. There is force generated but not in the style of classic projectile weapons. Imagine the projectile passing through magnetized coils or rails...the equal but opposite reaction is actually pushing back against the rail coils and not the weapon breach. What this effectively does is cause the barrel to wear out extrodinarly quickly due to the forces involved and heat generated from accelerating hypervelocity projectiles.
Basically...you don't get "recoil' transmitted to the user but the weapon will generate significant heat and degrade preformance until failure very quickly depending on the robustness of the matierals used.
"Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
690
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 16:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bump
"Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
690
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 16:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:the rail rifle is fine. stop the qq, whiners.
Lol...you said it better and faster than I did.
"Third star to the right...straight ahead 'till morning."
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
742
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 02:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
This escalated fairly sharply.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
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