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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1530
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Posted - 2014.01.15 22:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
Well here is the issue, it has to be stable and accurate to hit from far away, but that advantage is also reflecting onto the hip-fire as well, making it extremely powerful at close range.
There are a couple factors you can play with here so I'll give my opinion of how to tweak the RR to make it less effective at close range but retain its advantage at long range.
- Increase Charge Time Slightly - The Charge time plays a much larger role in close quarters than it does at long range, by increasing the time it will be harder to fight up close. Nothing significant but a couple tenths of a second longer would be appropriate.
- Significantly increase recoil when fired from the hip - This gun should kick like a mule when fired from the hip. The dispersion should remain tight, but the recoil should be difficult to work with.
- Decrease turn speed when aiming down the sight (ADS)- Tracking speed isn't very critical when fighting from range, but it is critical up close. Reducing ADS tracking speed would prevent players from aiming down the sight to avoid the recoil at close range, but not hinder tracking at long range.
1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1535
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Posted - 2014.01.15 22:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tyjus Vacca wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Well here is the issue, it has to be stable and accurate to hit from far away, but that advantage is also reflecting onto the hip-fire as well, making it extremely powerful at close range. There are a couple factors you can play with here so I'll give my opinion of how to tweak the RR to make it less effective at close range but retain its advantage at long range.
- Increase Charge Time Slightly - The Charge time plays a much larger role in close quarters than it does at long range, by increasing the time it will be harder to fight up close. Nothing significant but a couple tenths of a second longer would be appropriate.
- Significantly increase recoil when fired from the hip - This gun should kick like a mule when fired from the hip. The dispersion should remain tight, but the recoil should be difficult to work with.
- Decrease turn speed when aiming down the sight (ADS)- Tracking speed isn't very critical when fighting from range, but it is critical up close. Reducing ADS tracking speed would prevent players from aiming down the sight to avoid the recoil at close range, but not hinder tracking at long range.
^this. added charge time and added recoil on hip fire would fix it. so would ur suggestion about slowing down the ADS. and I agree the minmatar is probably too good at close range when it should be the gallente weapons. the problem I see is the ROF is 1200...thats kind of ridiculous. following pokeys example the gallente weapons with iron sights should have faster ADS and less recoil. Also much better hipfire.
I basically see it like this:
Rail Rifle Low RoF Very Long Range ADS - Low Dispersion ADS - Low Recoil ADS - Slow Tracking Hip - Low Dispersion Hip - Very High Recoil
Plasma Rifle High RoF Short Range ADS - Moderate Dispersion ADS - Low Recoil ADS - Fast Tracking Hip - Very High Dispersion Hip - Low Recoil
Combat Rifle Very High RoF Medium Range ADS - Low Dispersion ADS - Moderate Recoil (Between bursts, recoil between rounds in burst should be minimal) ADS - Moderate Tracking Hip - Moderate Dispersion Hip - Moderate Recoil
Scrambler Rifle Moderate RoF Medium Range ADS - Moderate Dispersion ADS - Low Recoil ADS - Moderate Tracking Hip - Moderate Dispersion Hip - Moderate Recoil
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1536
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Posted - 2014.01.15 23:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tch Tch wrote:The rail guns CQC hip fire ability is probably better because of kick and dispersion it causes.
At long range you want a narrow/point cone whilst at short range you want dispersion to catch the opponent.
So it might be the very kick in the weapon that is enhancing its CQC.
That's only true for high RoF weapons because you have so many bullets you dont care if a bunch miss, but with a low rate of fire you need it to be accurate so that every shot lands. The fact of the matter is that the RR doesn't have ENOUGH recoil when hipfired, which allows people to land every shot easily.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1537
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Posted - 2014.01.15 23:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
The general rule I like to follow for hipfire is as such
As Bullet Damage Increases, Recoil Increases
As Rate of Fire Increases, Dispersion Increases
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1549
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Posted - 2014.01.16 15:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jacques Cayton II wrote:It's like the forge gun all over again let's all just scream nerf till its useless yea because ccp listens. When they here nerf they nerf it to the ground can't wait to see the rr a situational gun that is only good at 70+ m because that's fair right
It is fair, kinda like how the AR is only good at like 45- m? Differences in effective range are a part of the game, and long range weapons should be difficult to use at close range, just as short range weapons should be difficult to use at long range.
I posted some suggestions earlier in the thread to tweak the RR making it less viable at close range, do you feel those changes were unreasonable?
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1550
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Posted - 2014.01.16 16:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Prius Vecht wrote:Dengar Skirata wrote:So... this is just another "buff the AR" thread? Wow... I thought we were past this guys. Its not buff at all. its more allow it the strengths/weaknesses it should have. I agree Gallente AR (with iron sights) should have the fastest ADS and best hipfire.
But also high dispersion and poor range. I mean you think about it, every non-variant rifle has some sort of a red dot sight or a scope on it, where the AR has nothing. I think this is telling that the weapon is supposed to be primarily used from the hip while the others are more for the ADS.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1554
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Posted - 2014.01.16 19:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
NAV HIV wrote: The gun is not the Problem It's Perfectly Fine. The problem is AA... People who actually know how to Shoot, us ADS while Shooting. Saw a suggestion up here about making the Tracking lower?! Really?!
Actually lower tracking is exactly how railguns are balance in EVE. They have high damage but low tracking which makes them difficult to use against enemies up close with a high traversal velocity, but easy to use at long range where traversal is low. Blasters on the other hang have extremely high tracking, very high damage, but stupidly short range.
My proposed lower tracking on the RR would only apply to ADS, this is because I also proposed significant recoil for the RR when fired from the hip. The decreased tracking would discouraged people from using ADS in close quarters to avoid that increased recoil, but would not negatively affect long range combat since traversal velocity is slow at range.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1555
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Posted - 2014.01.16 19:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jacques Cayton II wrote:Dusters Blog wrote:user skill will never be even. if u can get all headshots with the SCR congratulations, you will do well with any weapon. Aim is king in shooter, no one will ever debate this. but when the weapon design is bad and everyone can use it against how it was intended it may be time for tuning.
the RR simply cant be designed as a close quarters weapon or it has no weaknesses. it and weapons like the SCR should have bat hipfire. the GEK & HMG should have good hipfire and faster ADS as they both gets outranged by weapons like the CR, SCR and RR. The CR should be the most balanced with solid ADS and and solid hipfire..though not as good as the SMG, HMG or gallente AR. RR has a weakness slow rof and charge up. You can fire 2 bursts with the cr in that time almost 4 shots with the at scr idk 3-5 hmg 100's. If you die from a rail rifle and complain because it killed you at 30m don't stand still move or wait till he reloads the rail rifle is very easy to manipulate
I think no weaknesses is a poor way to put it. I think the inherent weaknesses the RR has a close range are not prominent enough, making it more effective in CQC than was originally intended.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1558
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Posted - 2014.01.16 19:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
NAV I think you're misunderstanding me.
I think Plasma Rifle should be used ADS which is why it needs to have fast tracking when ADS since it is supposed to be used in CQC where traversal is high. The RR SHOULD be difficult to use in CQC, even when ADS because that's how rails are balanced to be ineffective in close quarters.
The increase to hipfire recoil in RR would be to prevent less skilled players from taking advantage of the very stable RR and hipfiring with pinpoint accuracy. Unfortunately you can't reduce tracking from the hip as it would hinder simple movement.
If you're fighting around the optimal range of the RR, tracking isn't an issue. I use it quite frequently and would not suffer at all from reduced tracking if fighting at the appropriate range.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1560
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Posted - 2014.01.16 19:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Chaos Scum wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:NAV I think you're misunderstanding me.
I think Plasma Rifle should be used ADS which is why it needs to have fast tracking when ADS since it is supposed to be used in CQC where traversal is high. The RR SHOULD be difficult to use in CQC, even when ADS because that's how rails are balanced to be ineffective in close quarters.
The increase to hipfire recoil in RR would be to prevent less skilled players from taking advantage of the very stable RR and hipfiring with pinpoint accuracy. Unfortunately you can't reduce tracking from the hip as it would hinder simple movement.
If you're fighting around the optimal range of the RR, tracking isn't an issue. I use it quite frequently and would not suffer at all from reduced tracking if fighting at the appropriate range. isn't the entire range of the rail its optimal?
Negative. If that were the case there would no point in using any other rifle.
Basically how they do it in EVE is optimal range is a calculated value that incorporates how far the gun can shoot before it starts losing damage, accuracy, and tracking speed. Long range weapons suffer from poor tracking, which means they can't rotate fast enough to hit stuff up close, but their damage reaches out very far.
This gives turrets a sort of doughnut of optimal range, too close and the turret misses, too far and the damage falls off significantly.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1561
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Posted - 2014.01.16 20:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
NAV HIV wrote: Works for Rail tanks and Turrets, but fighting infantry it would have to be different.
How is it any different? Its two units with a weapon, moving and shooting at each other.
Anyways did some quick calcs in my head for your scout scenario.
At 80m and a Scout sprinting a 9m/s (which I think its actually faster than top speed) sprinting at a 90 degree angle from you, you would need a rotation speed of about 6.5 degrees a second to track him. At that speed it would take a little under a minute to do a full 360 rotation while aiming down the sight.....obviously this is insanely slow and I would never suggest it to be anything near that slow.
At 30m under the same conditions, you would need a rotation speed of 17 degrees a second, or about 21 seconds to rotate 360 degrees. Again, also rather slow.
I'll admit I have not done the calcs to see what the actual ADS turn rate is, but I can assure you it is not nearly as slow as these calculations require. In addition, this is a scout SPRINGING tangential to your line of sight. If he is morning normally, or moving at all away or closer to you, the needed rotation speed drops drastically.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1562
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Posted - 2014.01.16 21:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
NAV HIV wrote: Your calculation seems quite close. Let's see if we can work something out...
Tell ya what, I'll get on the Oceania Server sometime on the next day or two and I'll get some recordings of various ADS turn speeds and we can get some precise calculations. I really do think that tuning down the ADS tracking speed, or rather adjusting it for all rifles, will really help to give each weapon that doughnut of optimal range I was talking about.
Let me be clear, I'm not looking to nerf the RR into oblivion because of some grudge or whatever, I just want to see what can be done to give ALL rifles a clear role so that one doesn't make the other obsolete. I think minor adjustments like this can achieve this goal without gimping that weapons effectiveness at the intended ranges.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1566
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Posted - 2014.01.17 03:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
Jacques Cayton II wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:NAV HIV wrote: Works for Rail tanks and Turrets, but fighting infantry it would have to be different.
How is it any different? Its two units with a weapon, moving and shooting at each other. Anyways did some quick calcs in my head for your scout scenario. At 80m and a Scout sprinting a 9m/s (which I think its actually faster than top speed) sprinting at a 90 degree angle from you, you would need a rotation speed of about 6.5 degrees a second to track him. At that speed it would take a little under a minute to do a full 360 rotation while aiming down the sight.....obviously this is insanely slow and I would never suggest it to be anything near that slow. At 30m under the same conditions, you would need a rotation speed of 17 degrees a second, or about 21 seconds to rotate 360 degrees. Again, also rather slow. I'll admit I have not done the calcs to see what the actual ADS turn rate is, but I can assure you it is not nearly as slow as these calculations require. In addition, this is a scout SPRINTING tangential to your line of sight. If he is moving normally, or moving at all away or closer to you, the needed rotation speed drops drastically. Guys the heavy had this and they got rid of it its not coming back
Incorrect. Heavies had reduced rotation speed all the time, which caused issues with movement because that speed reduction was on 100% of the time. I'm merely proposing a rotation speed reduction when aiming down the sight, completely different.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1566
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Posted - 2014.01.17 03:39:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jacques Cayton II wrote: If you remember correctly when uprising first hit hmgs couldn't turn while ads at least very fast get your facts straight
Someone is grumpy
Also a weapon like the HMG should not have reduce ADS speed, that goes against the concept of close range weapons which is exactly what the HMG is. However for a long range weapon such as the Rail Rifle, it is a balancing mechanic. As I stated earlier, this is exactly how it works in EVE to much success.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1566
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Posted - 2014.01.17 03:45:00 -
[15] - Quote
Jacques Cayton II wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Jacques Cayton II wrote: If you remember correctly when uprising first hit hmgs couldn't turn while ads at least very fast get your facts straight
Someone is grumpy Also a weapon like the HMG should not have reduce ADS speed, that goes against the concept of close range weapons which is exactly what the HMG is. However for a long range weapon such as the Rail Rifle, it is a balancing mechanic. As I stated earlier, this is exactly how it works in EVE to much success. This isn't eve ccp has made that clear also spaceships aren't infantry fights can last hours on eve or fights are in seconds. If this was eve we would be standing still shooting guns at each other for 35 min till one guy dies ( i know it's not accurate by saying 35 min but whateves)
So you feel that the rail rifle should be effective at all ranges and the other rifles only effective at limited ranges?
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1566
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Posted - 2014.01.17 03:48:00 -
[16] - Quote
I get plenty of kills at CQC with it and I'm a terrible shot.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1566
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Posted - 2014.01.17 03:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
And the reason EVE Rail turrets can't hit things up close is because they have **** poor tracking speed, meaning they will frequently miss targets that are orbiting (strafing) at short range. You can argue all you want that "Dust isnt EVE" but the concepts come from the same source and thus would need to be balanced in the same way.
Rail turrets on tanks are handled the same way. You can literally drive faster than the rail can track you at close range, meaning that in a vehicle strafing situation, the rail turret has a minimum range.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1567
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Posted - 2014.01.17 04:06:00 -
[18] - Quote
I don't think anyone was saying its the only weapon that is too effective at CQC, but this topic is specifically about the RR
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1567
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Posted - 2014.01.17 04:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tectonic Fusion wrote:Pokey Dravon[* wrote: Increase Charge Time Slightly - The Charge time plays a much larger role in close quarters than it does at long range, by increasing the time it will be harder to fight up close. Nothing significant but a couple tenths of a second longer would be appropriate.
Only thing that it needs. But it should have the charge time of a rail gun turret so if you flank them, they are totally helpless. Also the other stuff you posted will make it totally almost useless. And it's tracking speed is already really slow.
Well at least we can agree to disagree
In all reality its difficult to really make any concrete claims about balance since we can't personally test these suggestions ourselves, so in the end its mostly speculation. Theory crafting is fun though.
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