DUST Search - I hate to be so final but Rail Tanks are COMPLETELY BROKEN

Mossellia Delt wrote:

ladwar wrote:

Shley Ashes wrote:

What I see as the issues are:
1) Current AV is ineffective in most situations
2) HAV's are balanced against HAV's ((at least I think thats what CCP went for)also I don't think they are balanced)
3) Militia railgun tanks to easily accessabile

possible fixes:

1) buff current AV (least likely to work)
2) lower HAV's ability to engage higher objects. e.g. reduce turret elevation for railguns
3) Replace the Militia railgun on the Sica with a Large Militia Missile Launcher (MT-1)

Also redline issue, something needs to be addressed where damage inflicted and received in the redline, everyone dislikes redline snipers of all types, sorry all snipers its true.

1. current AV is effective when used correctly and buffing it to much will just put it back to 1.6 where no one but broke equipment vehicle that are OP because they are broke will be used
2. they are and that would have zero effect.
3. well so what? that would have a minor effect and wouldn't change that much since they could just buy one and fit over it on the cheap.

The current AV isnt effective when redline tanks are on a hill in the back and they can reverse two feet so you cant shoot them.

8 ishokune assault forgegun rounds to take out a mlt HAV. More if they use a sica with two hardners.

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Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 349	Posted - 2013.12.21 05:38:00 - [31] - Quote I think if rails couldn't look higher than 20 degrees, then drop ships have the ability to stay out of their reach. At least tanks and LAVs can find cover. Dropships are just screwed.
jerrmy12 kahoalii The dyst0pian Corporation Zero-Day 164	Posted - 2013.12.21 05:42:00 - [32] - Quote Megamix Chemist wrote: Bump +1 Range needs to be addressed, maybe the rails round travels so fast it gets too hot and implodes after a certain distance or sharpens down to a smaller round doing less damage, maybe not but there should be a solution. 1.6 fire rate, reduce damage by at least 100, bring the ADV snd PRO rails closer together so they cant have over 1700 damage recuruit link 5 to 11 mil isk per 100k recuruit
ladwar Death by Disassociation Zero-Day 1929	Posted - 2013.12.21 05:49:00 - [33] - Quote i don't think rail tanks themselfs are the issue but friendly redzones. btw if anyone doesn't know the only way they can aim up that much is by angling the tank to into the sky so they can no longer look down(humping a vert rock or hill and no long can see anything but the sky). fix this and all of your rail tanks issues and redzone snipers(like they are an issue much anymore) go away. but you know you always could make it arc like plasma cannon but faster and less arc to make more like a modern tank cannon and that'll help with the anti air part of it and make it a skill weapon. Level 2 Forum Warrior, retired vet. I shall smite Thy Trolls with numbers and truth not looking for a corp, don't ask.
Shley Ashes State Patriots Templis De Novo 93	Posted - 2013.12.21 06:16:00 - [34] - Quote Thought I'd chime in, you know me Judge so hit me up in squad about this Railguns are currently the most effective counter to all vehicles, FACT They will always be balanced against HAV's primarily, which means they will wreck all other forms of vehicle, so if you want to reduce its effectiveness against DS you're going to need to either have a counter available on them or remove HAV's ability to engage DS with the railgun, You know I think HAV's are broken(I've told you so), also that I think AV received to high a nerf, herein lies the biggest problem to the current railgun issue, I can't whip out a forge gun easily to engage you anymore(because I'm not a great shot with it), or LoLswarms(range nerf/dmg nerf), heck I can't even fire upon you with small arms because LoLsmallarms, throw AV grenades doubt you'll be that low and my throwing arm isn't great. However I can call in a 69k tank and blat you with that, from the relative safety of the redline !!! What I see as the issues are: 1) Current AV is ineffective in most situations 2) HAV's are balanced against HAV's ((at least I think thats what CCP went for)also I don't think they are balanced) 3) Militia railgun tanks to easily accessabile possible fixes: 1) buff current AV (least likely to work) 2) lower HAV's ability to engage higher objects. e.g. reduce turret elevation for railguns 3) Replace the Militia railgun on the Sica with a Large Militia Missile Launcher (MT-1) Also redline issue, something needs to be addressed where damage inflicted and received in the redline, everyone dislikes redline snipers of all types, sorry all snipers its true. I used to pilot HAV's then I took a forge gun to the knee, but now forge guns do nothing to HAV's........
Agrios Endendros Single Serving Friends 63	Posted - 2013.12.21 06:32:00 - [35] - Quote I think we should severely shrink the boundaries and have the redline become an actual force barrier, that would only allow friendly coded objects to pass though. Ammunition, being too small, non physical in makeup, moving too fast, or some other nonsense, would not be able to pass through from EITHER side. Edit: Though I guess you would just have those who would stick their nose out, shoot, and back up, so no this won't work. In the MCC should be only redline I guess. Alts: Haruko Endendros, Canti Endendros, & Zero Endendros Play Dust! Join Here!
ladwar Death by Disassociation Zero-Day 1930	Posted - 2013.12.21 06:34:00 - [36] - Quote Shley Ashes wrote: What I see as the issues are: 1) Current AV is ineffective in most situations 2) HAV's are balanced against HAV's ((at least I think thats what CCP went for)also I don't think they are balanced) 3) Militia railgun tanks to easily accessabile possible fixes: 1) buff current AV (least likely to work) 2) lower HAV's ability to engage higher objects. e.g. reduce turret elevation for railguns 3) Replace the Militia railgun on the Sica with a Large Militia Missile Launcher (MT-1) Also redline issue, something needs to be addressed where damage inflicted and received in the redline, everyone dislikes redline snipers of all types, sorry all snipers its true. 1. current AV is effective when used correctly and buffing it to much will just put it back to 1.6 where no one but broke equipment vehicle that are OP because they are broke will be used 2. they are and that would have zero effect. 3. well so what? that would have a minor effect and wouldn't change that much since they could just buy one and fit over it on the cheap. Level 2 Forum Warrior, retired vet. I shall smite Thy Trolls with numbers and truth not looking for a corp, don't ask.
Mossellia Delt Militaires Sans Jeux 814	Posted - 2013.12.21 06:40:00 - [37] - Quote ladwar wrote: Shley Ashes wrote: What I see as the issues are: 1) Current AV is ineffective in most situations 2) HAV's are balanced against HAV's ((at least I think thats what CCP went for)also I don't think they are balanced) 3) Militia railgun tanks to easily accessabile possible fixes: 1) buff current AV (least likely to work) 2) lower HAV's ability to engage higher objects. e.g. reduce turret elevation for railguns 3) Replace the Militia railgun on the Sica with a Large Militia Missile Launcher (MT-1) Also redline issue, something needs to be addressed where damage inflicted and received in the redline, everyone dislikes redline snipers of all types, sorry all snipers its true. 1. current AV is effective when used correctly and buffing it to much will just put it back to 1.6 where no one but broke equipment vehicle that are OP because they are broke will be used 2. they are and that would have zero effect. 3. well so what? that would have a minor effect and wouldn't change that much since they could just buy one and fit over it on the cheap. The current AV isnt effective when redline tanks are on a hill in the back and they can reverse two feet so you cant shoot them. 8 ishokune assault forgegun rounds to take out a mlt HAV. More if they use a sica with two hardners. Parody Dust 514 Lyrics Vote for Delt
Rusty Shallows 582	Posted - 2013.12.21 06:42:00 - [38] - Quote Pre 1.7 conversation. Rusty Shallows wrote: snip Rendering issues have been a persistent problem. It has screwed over snipers pretty good. I can't wait until CCP fixes it and people realize Large Rails have a range more than three times Forge Guns, a faster shot velocity, and better splash. Because it has always been good times when a HAV from a perfectly safe position spams an area and someday when they can scope and clearly see everything it will get even better. snip Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: assertions and straw men are hardly valid responses. Since your reply lacks relevance I shall ignore it. *passes Judge Rhadamasntus a plate of crow* MCC Lounge Lizard Forums > Game Fix the game CCP
dogmanpig black market bank 83	Posted - 2013.12.21 06:43:00 - [39] - Quote Mossellia Delt wrote: ladwar wrote: Shley Ashes wrote: What I see as the issues are: 1) Current AV is ineffective in most situations 2) HAV's are balanced against HAV's ((at least I think thats what CCP went for)also I don't think they are balanced) 3) Militia railgun tanks to easily accessabile possible fixes: 1) buff current AV (least likely to work) 2) lower HAV's ability to engage higher objects. e.g. reduce turret elevation for railguns 3) Replace the Militia railgun on the Sica with a Large Militia Missile Launcher (MT-1) Also redline issue, something needs to be addressed where damage inflicted and received in the redline, everyone dislikes redline snipers of all types, sorry all snipers its true. 1. current AV is effective when used correctly and buffing it to much will just put it back to 1.6 where no one but broke equipment vehicle that are OP because they are broke will be used 2. they are and that would have zero effect. 3. well so what? that would have a minor effect and wouldn't change that much since they could just buy one and fit over it on the cheap. The current AV isnt effective when redline tanks are on a hill in the back and they can reverse two feet so you cant shoot them. 8 ishokune assault forgegun rounds to take out a mlt HAV. More if they use a sica with two hardners. your issue is with redlines not AV or vehicles.... you are miss guided in your ways. You hate me, I hate you. Lets keep it that way. Level 8 1/10 Forum alt. "Its worth half a penny and a reach around"
ladwar Death by Disassociation Zero-Day 1930	Posted - 2013.12.21 06:45:00 - [40] - Quote i hate you dogmanpig... Level 2 Forum Warrior, retired vet. I shall smite Thy Trolls with numbers and truth not looking for a corp, don't ask.

Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 960	Posted - 2013.12.21 06:48:00 - [41] - Quote For now the aerial red zone could be enlarged. It would allow ADS to at least fight these cowards. Also AV could then YOLO the problem. The reason they are back there is they want to be able to engage their targets with no chance of being hurt. Take that away and they will fit more tank less gank. Buff AV. Its going to happen. Why wait? The skilled tankers will adapt and militia will be nerfed by natural selection. Drop ships could get a buff too. Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
dogmanpig black market bank 83	Posted - 2013.12.21 06:48:00 - [42] - Quote ladwar wrote: i hate you dogmanpig... thanks You hate me, I hate you. Lets keep it that way. Level 8 1/10 Forum alt. "Its worth half a penny and a reach around"
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2590	Posted - 2013.12.21 06:51:00 - [43] - Quote The redline is a huge part of the problem. I had a rail ADS take out a rail Sica pretty quickly but you can't do that to a redline tank. In fact the redline is a huge problem in general. I wouldn't be sorry to see it go. If a team gets pushed back so badly that it needs the artificial protection of a redline, just end the match early. Declare a mercy and end it. Anti-HAV weapons must be DPS balanced against the HAV, but that puts dropships as medium vehicles in a bad spot. Dropships need some unique way to mitigate the threat. Since The rail can elevate higher than it needs to in order to battle other tanks it can be reduced as a partial fix. We still need a way to mitigate the FG, but it isn't nearly as much of a problem. And please, please, drop your plans to build an anti-dropship HAV!
dogmanpig black market bank 83	Posted - 2013.12.21 06:51:00 - [44] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: For now the aerial red zone could be enlarged. It would allow ADS to at least fight these cowards. Also AV could then YOLO the problem. The reason they are back there is they want to be able to engage their targets with no chance of being hurt. Take that away and they will fit more tank less gank. Buff AV. Its going to happen. Why wait? The skilled tankers will adapt and militia will be nerfed by natural selection. Drop ships could get a buff too. hey i think you get the idea, fix the issue that the redline was made for and then remove the red line! You hate me, I hate you. Lets keep it that way. Level 8 1/10 Forum alt. "Its worth half a penny and a reach around"
Rowdy Railgunner Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 289	Posted - 2013.12.21 06:52:00 - [45] - Quote I find the opposite to be true. I have never been pinned down by a rail tank. I use them to kill other tanks but at the same time I find them pretty weak. To get max damage you sacrifice tank. They normally pop in 3-4 hits from my rail tank. Or my rail tank pops in 3-4 hits from another rail tank. They are glass cannons, also, JIHAD TAXI!!! I have killed a few railgun snipers in my LAV of tank death many times because in 18 seconds I can easily ram them.
Our Deepest Regret L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 447	Posted - 2013.12.21 06:53:00 - [46] - Quote I'm quite taken with rail gunning. It's my new favorite toy, and I've grown to love it. I mean, yeah, you need something that can shoot down Drop ships, or else they'll dominate the match. But infinite range is definitely broken. Maybe the power of the shot should weaken at extreme range? Give the weapon a minimum range of 250 meters for full power, and start penalizing it beyond that?
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 9265	Posted - 2013.12.21 06:55:00 - [47] - Quote Rowdy Railgunner wrote: I find the opposite to be true. I have never been pinned down by a rail tank. I use them to kill other tanks but at the same time I find them pretty weak. To get max damage you sacrifice tank. They normally pop in 3-4 hits from my rail tank. Or my rail tank pops in 3-4 hits from another rail tank. They are glass cannons, also, JIHAD TAXI!!! I have killed a few railgun snipers in my LAV of tank death many times because in 18 seconds I can easily ram them. The issue is that you can only kill them with another railgun tank, that's it You can't even suicide LAV most of these guys because they're simply too far back, and if you somehow get close enough they'll either kill you before you hit them, or they'll just casually roll backwards until you explode from redline. You can't even kill these guys with an orbital, because they just roll backwards. At no point should someone be immune to almost all forms of damage while being a viable threat to multiple enemies at the exact same time. Vids / O7
CharCharOdell 1824	Posted - 2013.12.21 06:55:00 - [48] - Quote Ugh....alright. Here is the issue with rails: If we nerf them, then there is no way for infantry with 0 SP in tanks to counter tanks Rails are balanced against tanks very well. EHP for tanks is low enough to kill redline tanks wihtout hardeners on (most of them!) The answer is the buff dropships- cloaking, anyone!? How cool would it be to be chilling in your tank and then suddenly 3 small missile turrets rip you to shreds and you had no idea how!? I like that idea. I want balance for this game. I really do. With 80k mlt tanks being almost as good as 400k tanks, infantry have no excuse other than lack of skill with piloting to not be able to kill other tanks. It is FREE AV. Takes no SP and is cheaper than proto AV so complaining about tanks is pointless because EVERYONE CAN USE THEM. No tank can stand up to a mlt rail with 2 dmg mods running! Stop thinking AV is the only counter when CCP gave you these powerfl MLT tanks to kill other tanks with! USe it. But yeah, dropships are suffering from rails. They need a huge buff and new modules. ON the other hand, a dropship can run with a friendly rail tank in the squad and then not have to worry about rail tanks that are red. So the balance is already there. The tools exist and require zero SP. You just dont want to drive tanks to solve your problem. If it required 3 mil SP to use a tank then fine, i get it, but it doesnt. You;re complaing about nothing. It's like saying the duvolle is OP when you have a mlt AR that has nearly the same killing power (hypothetically). Stop complaining and adapt like we did over the last 7 builds of constant nerfs and av buffs. Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó I like railguns.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 9265	Posted - 2013.12.21 07:01:00 - [49] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: The answer is the buff dropships- cloaking, anyone!? How cool would it be to be chilling in your tank and then suddenly 3 small missile turrets rip you to shreds and you had no idea how!? I like that idea. I want balance for this game. I really do. You still couldn't hit them in the redline, no one equips side guns because your survivability plummets, and you can't hit with even 2 guns on the same target, never-mind 3. Carry on. Vids / O7
Our Deepest Regret L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 447	Posted - 2013.12.21 07:06:00 - [50] - Quote What if Drop ships were immune to Red line auto-death? It would make sense. The timer should only be triggered by vehicles that touch the ground. So long as the pilot and his crew stayed airborne, they wouldn't explode, and they'd be able to hunt red line rail gunners. They'd be the ultimate counter, in fact.

Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 962	Posted - 2013.12.21 07:13:00 - [51] - Quote Our Deepest Regret wrote: What if Drop ships were immune to Red line auto-death? It would make sense. The timer should only be triggered by vehicles that touch the ground. So long as the pilot and his crew stayed airborne, they wouldn't explode, and they'd be able to hunt red line rail gunners. They'd be the ultimate counter, in fact. its almost like you read my mind. Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
Rusty Shallows 582	Posted - 2013.12.21 07:14:00 - [52] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: snip Rails are balanced against tanks very snip They've been buffed well past what pre 1.7 Forge Guns were. So many HAV TC were screaming for Nerfs suddenly seem okay with such a weapon. Hypocrisy at its finest. I don't recall Odell being one of the Nerf Brigade. Just need to get a dig in on 1.7 Rails. MCC Lounge Lizard Forums > Game Fix the game CCP
ladwar Death by Disassociation Zero-Day 1930	Posted - 2013.12.21 07:24:00 - [53] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: Our Deepest Regret wrote: What if Drop ships were immune to Red line auto-death? It would make sense. The timer should only be triggered by vehicles that touch the ground. So long as the pilot and his crew stayed airborne, they wouldn't explode, and they'd be able to hunt red line rail gunners. They'd be the ultimate counter, in fact. its almost like you read my mind. and so i now see spawn camping dropships preventing people from spawning in their own spawn areas. Level 2 Forum Warrior, retired vet. I shall smite Thy Trolls with numbers and truth not looking for a corp, don't ask.
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 962	Posted - 2013.12.21 07:27:00 - [54] - Quote ladwar wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: Our Deepest Regret wrote: What if Drop ships were immune to Red line auto-death? It would make sense. The timer should only be triggered by vehicles that touch the ground. So long as the pilot and his crew stayed airborne, they wouldn't explode, and they'd be able to hunt red line rail gunners. They'd be the ultimate counter, in fact. its almost like you read my mind. and so i now see spawn camping dropships preventing people from spawning in their own spawn areas. trust me they are afraid of forges still. Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
jerrmy12 kahoalii The dyst0pian Corporation Zero-Day 164	Posted - 2013.12.21 07:30:00 - [55] - Quote ladwar wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: Our Deepest Regret wrote: What if Drop ships were immune to Red line auto-death? It would make sense. The timer should only be triggered by vehicles that touch the ground. So long as the pilot and his crew stayed airborne, they wouldn't explode, and they'd be able to hunt red line rail gunners. They'd be the ultimate counter, in fact. its almost like you read my mind. and so i now see spawn camping dropships preventing people from spawning in their own spawn areas. butr there are supply depots and institutions in the redline recuruit link 5 to 11 mil isk per 100k recuruit
ladwar Death by Disassociation Zero-Day 1930	Posted - 2013.12.21 07:31:00 - [56] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: ladwar wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: Our Deepest Regret wrote: What if Drop ships were immune to Red line auto-death? It would make sense. The timer should only be triggered by vehicles that touch the ground. So long as the pilot and his crew stayed airborne, they wouldn't explode, and they'd be able to hunt red line rail gunners. They'd be the ultimate counter, in fact. its almost like you read my mind. and so i now see spawn camping dropships preventing people from spawning in their own spawn areas. trust me they are afraid of forges still. not that afraid... plus when there 3-6 of them your only going to scare one away while the rest keep on spawn camping. fix spawn protection and area to the point that friendly redzones can be removed will do everything and more. Level 2 Forum Warrior, retired vet. I shall smite Thy Trolls with numbers and truth not looking for a corp, don't ask.
Aizen Intiki Hell's Gate Inc 592	Posted - 2013.12.21 07:31:00 - [57] - Quote I've been dealing with Redline rail snipers since day one. Get in line "Hello, world!" lol, sounds like something a whore lover would say Alt of the great Godin I like chocolate ^___^
Our Deepest Regret L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 449	Posted - 2013.12.21 07:32:00 - [58] - Quote ladwar wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: Our Deepest Regret wrote: What if Drop ships were immune to Red line auto-death? It would make sense. The timer should only be triggered by vehicles that touch the ground. So long as the pilot and his crew stayed airborne, they wouldn't explode, and they'd be able to hunt red line rail gunners. They'd be the ultimate counter, in fact. its almost like you read my mind. and so i now see spawn camping dropships preventing people from spawning in their own spawn areas. Well, why do we have those turrets in our red line base that never get used? They'd finally have a purpose, wouldn't they? Besides people should be respawning at uplinks and objective sites, anyway. Why would you go back to the R/L unless you were planning to red line snipe?
Our Deepest Regret L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 449	Posted - 2013.12.21 07:36:00 - [59] - Quote ladwar wrote: not that afraid... plus when there 3-6 of them your only going to scare one away while the rest keep on spawn camping. fix spawn protection and area to the point that friendly redzones can be removed will do everything and more. Alrighty then. What if the red line were a null fire zone where weapons damage didn't exist? Same way you can't snipe at people from MCC anymore, just extended to the entire R/L. Do you think that would help?
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries 461	Posted - 2013.12.21 08:12:00 - [60] - Quote I'm not sure if we should remove them completely but they do need a fixing, starting with the red line. This has been a problem since beta and should be addressed with the help of both dropship and rail tank pilots. If there was a Dev workshop where dedicated dropship pilots and rail tankers on a private server to discuss and work on this balance. That would be the most inspiring development for pilots. Not all the time but when serious balance issues such as this is concerned. Showing the vehicle devs the problems first hand and providing some interesting and possible balance solutions. Beta testing new mechanics and features for feed back before implementing.



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