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The dark cloud
The Rainbow Effect
1973
   |
Posted - 2013.12.20 04:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Another day, another issue who woulda have guessed it? We all know that tanks have now a pretty high passive recharge rate but can be stopped by using "AV". This is not correct, in fact its terribly wrong and i call it exploitation on the highest lvl.
Why so? Its quite simple cause a full volley of swarms is not capable to get over the damage threshold when hardeners are active.
Why is this a problem? It is a problem cause shield tanks have allready a natural passive resistance against swarm launchers which is around 30% and then you put another 60% damage reduction on top and this means that swarms wont get trough the damage threshold.
So we have a weapon which does pathetic damage while a hardener is running and no im not talking about 2 or 3 hardeners its just 1. We are getting to a point where the passive recharge is greater then the inflicted damage and this means you inflict 0HP damage to a tank.
What needs to be changed is that the damage threshold needs to be drastically brought down to a lower damage. It cant be that a full volley of proto swarms with 3 complex damage mods deals effectively 0 damage and doesnt even stop their shields from recharging.
Now for those who will say "those tanks have a shield booster". Nope they dont i tested it by myself and grabbed a sica with 2 hardeners and activated only 1 at a time. Then i standed on open field and let some redberrys shot my tank with proto swarms. The result is the problem stated above. Oh did i forget to mention that this works for ALL shield vehicles?
I shall show you a world, a world which you cant imagine, a world full off butthurt n00bs at the other end of my gun
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
2306
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 04:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
inb4 LOLTank Brigade saying "I should be able to rep through your Swarms"
Holy Fudgenipples!!!
MY HMG WORKS!!! IT ACTUALLY WORKS!!!
\o/
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4256
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Posted - 2013.12.20 04:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
This had been mentioned on day one of 1.7 and was discussed for several days after.
The comments about it died down, but it's still a problem.
I think that while hardeners are active, the threshold should adjust to allow swarms to hit it through hardeners, OR swarms need a small buff to damage. |
The dark cloud
The Rainbow Effect
1973
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 04:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
Just to let ya know even when 6 people shot you at the same time with swarm launchers the shields keep recharging when a hardener is active.
I shall show you a world, a world which you cant imagine, a world full off butthurt n00bs at the other end of my gun
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Benjamin Ciscko
The Generals
General Tso's Alliance
402
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 04:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Atiim wrote:inb4 LOLTank Brigade saying "I should be able to rep through your Swarms"
Oh knows I have been inb4ed.
Tanker/Assault
Tanks almost fixed.
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knight of 6
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
866
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 04:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:Another day, another issue who woulda have guessed it? We all know that tanks have now a pretty high passive recharge rate but can be stopped by using "AV". This is not correct, in fact its terribly wrong and i call it exploitation on the highest lvl.
Why so? Its quite simple cause a full volley of swarms is not capable to get over the damage threshold when hardeners are active.
Why is this a problem? It is a problem cause shield tanks have allready a natural passive resistance against swarm launchers which is around 30% and then you put another 60% damage reduction on top and this means that swarms wont get trough the damage threshold.
So we have a weapon which does pathetic damage while a hardener is running and no im not talking about 2 or 3 hardeners its just 1. We are getting to a point where the passive recharge is greater then the inflicted damage and this means you inflict 0HP damage to a tank.
What needs to be changed is that the damage threshold needs to be drastically brought down to a lower damage. It cant be that a full volley of proto swarms with 3 complex damage mods deals effectively 0 damage and doesnt even stop their shields from recharging.
Now for those who will say "those tanks have a shield booster". Nope they dont i tested it by myself and grabbed a sica with 2 hardeners and activated only 1 at a time. Then i standed on open field and let some redberrys shot my tank with proto swarms. The result is the problem stated above. Oh did i forget to mention that this works for ALL shield vehicles?
TL;DR: "I'm using an ineffective damage type and it's ineffective"
"God favors the side with the best artillery" ~ Napoleon
Ko6, scout, tanker.
CLOSED BETA VET
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Jason Pearson
3532
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Posted - 2013.12.20 04:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Use PLCs, Swarms for Armor k?
King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire.
Buffing or Debuffing Vehicles or AV will never fix anything.
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Darken-Sol
BIG BAD W0LVES
934
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 04:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Atiim wrote:inb4 LOLTank Brigade saying "I should be able to rep through your Swarms"
all three of them?
Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
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KenKaniff69
Fatal Absolution
1012
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 04:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
I believe that CCP couldn't figure out how to make the effects of a charged sniper rifle and a militia swarm volley differ in their effects on regen delay, so they put a general threshold in. CCP cut a corner here and these are the consequences.
So about those vehicle locks...
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1531
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 04:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:Another day, another issue who woulda have guessed it? We all know that tanks have now a pretty high passive recharge rate but can be stopped by using "AV". This is not correct, in fact its terribly wrong and i call it exploitation on the highest lvl.
Why so? Its quite simple cause a full volley of swarms is not capable to get over the damage threshold when hardeners are active.
Why is this a problem? It is a problem cause shield tanks have allready a natural passive resistance against swarm launchers which is around 30% and then you put another 60% damage reduction on top and this means that swarms wont get trough the damage threshold.
So we have a weapon which does pathetic damage while a hardener is running and no im not talking about 2 or 3 hardeners its just 1. We are getting to a point where the passive recharge is greater then the inflicted damage and this means you inflict 0HP damage to a tank.
What needs to be changed is that the damage threshold needs to be drastically brought down to a lower damage. It cant be that a full volley of proto swarms with 3 complex damage mods deals effectively 0 damage and doesnt even stop their shields from recharging.
Now for those who will say "those tanks have a shield booster". Nope they dont i tested it by myself and grabbed a sica with 2 hardeners and activated only 1 at a time. Then i standed on open field and let some redberrys shot my tank with proto swarms. The result is the problem stated above. Oh did i forget to mention that this works for ALL shield vehicles?
You're using a weapon that does explosive damage on a shield vehicle. You expect it to be super effective?
Infantry cries for tank changes, and they don't like them. Tell them to use vehicles, they complain, and use cars anyway
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1531
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Posted - 2013.12.20 04:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
Darken-Sol wrote:Atiim wrote:inb4 LOLTank Brigade saying "I should be able to rep through your Swarms" all three of them?
Some of us run 3 hardeners. Derrr
Infantry cries for tank changes, and they don't like them. Tell them to use vehicles, they complain, and use cars anyway
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KING CHECKMATE
Scions of Athra
3396
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 04:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:
You're using a weapon that does explosive damage on a shield vehicle. You expect it to be super effective?
Defender of mechanical Crutches to the rescueeeeeeeeeeeeee....
AV-TANK BALANCE = https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1612446#post1612446
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Harpyja
DUST University
Ivy League
927
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:00:00 -
[13] - Quote
First, you're using a weapon that is naturally resisted against by shield.
Second, you're using a weapon against hardened shields.
Third, you aren't getting past the damage threshold to stop shields from recharging.
In all honesty, a scrub with a militia SL, or a couple of scrubs with SLs, shouldn't reduce my shields and force me to go into hiding. What should force me into hiding is a well planned and thought out attack, and not someone who can point a shoot with a fire and forget weapon.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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syn kaine
Krusual Covert Operators
Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.12.20 05:00:00 -
[14] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:The dark cloud wrote:Another day, another issue who woulda have guessed it? We all know that tanks have now a pretty high passive recharge rate but can be stopped by using "AV". This is not correct, in fact its terribly wrong and i call it exploitation on the highest lvl.
Why so? Its quite simple cause a full volley of swarms is not capable to get over the damage threshold when hardeners are active.
Why is this a problem? It is a problem cause shield tanks have allready a natural passive resistance against swarm launchers which is around 30% and then you put another 60% damage reduction on top and this means that swarms wont get trough the damage threshold.
So we have a weapon which does pathetic damage while a hardener is running and no im not talking about 2 or 3 hardeners its just 1. We are getting to a point where the passive recharge is greater then the inflicted damage and this means you inflict 0HP damage to a tank.
What needs to be changed is that the damage threshold needs to be drastically brought down to a lower damage. It cant be that a full volley of proto swarms with 3 complex damage mods deals effectively 0 damage and doesnt even stop their shields from recharging.
Now for those who will say "those tanks have a shield booster". Nope they dont i tested it by myself and grabbed a sica with 2 hardeners and activated only 1 at a time. Then i standed on open field and let some redberrys shot my tank with proto swarms. The result is the problem stated above. Oh did i forget to mention that this works for ALL shield vehicles? You're using a weapon that does explosive damage on a shield vehicle. You expect it to be super effective?
so are you cool with giving the swarm a second ammo type? |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
5949
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Um.... you could just wait until the hardeners are entering their cooldown phase which is pretty long from what I can tell after watching CEOPyrex's videos.
OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4256
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:You're using a weapon that does explosive damage on a shield vehicle. You expect it to be super effective?
They're using an anti-vehicle weapon on a vehicle. I expect it to be at least mildly effective. Particularly considering we're even seeing this happen Proto AV vs. Militia Hardeners.
EDIT: I don't think that Swarms should deal huge amounts of damage to hardened shield tanks - AND THEY DON'T. But they should at least interrupt our repair. |
lDocHollidayl
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
421
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:10:00 -
[17] - Quote
same story for AV nades |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
5950
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:You're using a weapon that does explosive damage on a shield vehicle. You expect it to be super effective? They're using an anti-vehicle weapon on a vehicle. I expect it to be at least mildly effective. Particularly considering we're even seeing this happen Proto AV vs. Militia Hardeners.
But that's still an explosive weapon which is something tailored only towards armor. In Eve Online, explosive ammo is usually something PvPers use against Gallente and Amarr ships since both races rely heavily on armor.
Of course, the better alternative that I suggest as opposed to simply reducing the damage threshold when activating hardeners is that CCP should introduce more racial variants of the swarm launcher. What we have now is primarily a Caldari launcher. In the Gallente, Amarr, and Minmatar get their own variants, then perhaps we could see increased AV effectiveness when using EM-based weapons.
Or, CCP should introduce different ammo types for every handheld weapon such as fitting EM ammo on the swarms, or maybe Thermal or Kinetic ammo instead.
OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
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Harpyja
DUST University
Ivy League
928
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:You're using a weapon that does explosive damage on a shield vehicle. You expect it to be super effective? They're using an anti-vehicle weapon on a vehicle. I expect it to be at least mildly effective. Particularly considering we're even seeing this happen Proto AV vs. Militia Hardeners. EDIT: I don't think that Swarms should deal huge amounts of damage to hardened shield tanks - AND THEY DON'T. But they should at least interrupt our repair.
No special circumstances need to be given. If the damage threshold is not reached, then shields should continue their recharge.
Only thing that needs to change is AV tactics and using some thought as to which AV weapon to bring when confronting a shield vehicle.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1532
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:
You're using a weapon that does explosive damage on a shield vehicle. You expect it to be super effective?
Defender of mechanical Crutches to the rescueeeeeeeeeeeeee....
You're still not happy with the changes you forced on CCP.
Move on to a different game already.
Infantry cries for tank changes, and they don't like them. Tell them to use vehicles, they complain, and use cars anyway
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1532
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
syn kaine wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:The dark cloud wrote:Another day, another issue who woulda have guessed it? We all know that tanks have now a pretty high passive recharge rate but can be stopped by using "AV". This is not correct, in fact its terribly wrong and i call it exploitation on the highest lvl.
Why so? Its quite simple cause a full volley of swarms is not capable to get over the damage threshold when hardeners are active.
Why is this a problem? It is a problem cause shield tanks have allready a natural passive resistance against swarm launchers which is around 30% and then you put another 60% damage reduction on top and this means that swarms wont get trough the damage threshold.
So we have a weapon which does pathetic damage while a hardener is running and no im not talking about 2 or 3 hardeners its just 1. We are getting to a point where the passive recharge is greater then the inflicted damage and this means you inflict 0HP damage to a tank.
What needs to be changed is that the damage threshold needs to be drastically brought down to a lower damage. It cant be that a full volley of proto swarms with 3 complex damage mods deals effectively 0 damage and doesnt even stop their shields from recharging.
Now for those who will say "those tanks have a shield booster". Nope they dont i tested it by myself and grabbed a sica with 2 hardeners and activated only 1 at a time. Then i standed on open field and let some redberrys shot my tank with proto swarms. The result is the problem stated above. Oh did i forget to mention that this works for ALL shield vehicles? You're using a weapon that does explosive damage on a shield vehicle. You expect it to be super effective? so are you cool with giving the swarm a second ammo type?
Lol no, they're explosive warheads. You want EMP warheads so they'd do 130% damage against shields, plus having the rocket motor detonate as well to destroy the armor.
Go away please.
Infantry cries for tank changes, and they don't like them. Tell them to use vehicles, they complain, and use cars anyway
|
Lorhak Gannarsein
Science For Death
800
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:You're using a weapon that does explosive damage on a shield vehicle. You expect it to be super effective? They're using an anti-vehicle weapon on a vehicle. I expect it to be at least mildly effective. Particularly considering we're even seeing this happen Proto AV vs. Militia Hardeners. EDIT: I don't think that Swarms should deal huge amounts of damage to hardened shield tanks - AND THEY DON'T. But they should at least interrupt our repair. No special circumstances need to be given. If the damage threshold is not reached, then shields should continue their recharge. Only thing that needs to change is AV tactics and using some thought as to which AV weapon to bring when confronting a shield vehicle.
Agreed. I do think it should be changed up slightly; as is, I can ignore almost any number of MLT swarms. If they actually ARE coordinating, they should be rewarded. Maybe change it to a 'damage taken inside the last 'x' period of time', rather than 'damage per shot'?
After all, if a proto swarm hit for 1320, rather than 220x6 it would interrupt regen for sure.
>Cosgar: You know, tanks are actually paper thin once their modules are in cooldown.
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1532
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:You're using a weapon that does explosive damage on a shield vehicle. You expect it to be super effective? They're using an anti-vehicle weapon on a vehicle. I expect it to be at least mildly effective. Particularly considering we're even seeing this happen Proto AV vs. Militia Hardeners. EDIT: I don't think that Swarms should deal huge amounts of damage to hardened shield tanks - AND THEY DON'T. But they should at least interrupt our repair.
Again............ it's an explosive weapon on a shield vehicle. These same people complain that their ARs don't do enough damage to vehicles.
Infantry cries for tank changes, and they don't like them. Tell them to use vehicles, they complain, and use cars anyway
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1532
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:You're using a weapon that does explosive damage on a shield vehicle. You expect it to be super effective? They're using an anti-vehicle weapon on a vehicle. I expect it to be at least mildly effective. Particularly considering we're even seeing this happen Proto AV vs. Militia Hardeners. EDIT: I don't think that Swarms should deal huge amounts of damage to hardened shield tanks - AND THEY DON'T. But they should at least interrupt our repair. No special circumstances need to be given. If the damage threshold is not reached, then shields should continue their recharge. Only thing that needs to change is AV tactics and using some thought as to which AV weapon to bring when confronting a shield vehicle.
The only tactics infantry wants is to chase away tanks with whatever weapon they have in their hands at the moment, which is often a PRO AR of whatever variant.
Infantry cries for tank changes, and they don't like them. Tell them to use vehicles, they complain, and use cars anyway
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Heathen Bastard
The Bastard Brigade
771
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:21:00 -
[25] - Quote
so, hardeners should what, make the tank weaker? Christ kid, it's called watching the guy and hitting him when the hardeners are down.
If it's glowing, don't shoot it, it just gives away your position, and tells him to run. if he isn't glowing light his ass up. he'll either trip his hardeners and run, or his hardeners are down and you'll likely kill him before he can escape. Either way, you've performed your job and gotten that tank away from your team.
If you hear the words "WORTH IT!" look about, something hilarious just happened.
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Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
1810
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:23:00 -
[26] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:
You're using a weapon that does explosive damage on a shield vehicle. You expect it to be super effective?
Defender of mechanical Crutches to the rescueeeeeeeeeeeeee.... You're still not happy with the changes you forced on CCP. Move on to a different game already. You complained the most about vehicle changes.
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4258
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:28:00 -
[27] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Again............ it's an explosive weapon on a shield vehicle. These same people complain that their ARs don't do enough damage to vehicles.
Find me ONE thread where I've asked for ARs to damage vehicles and it hasn't been obviously the most blatant sarcasm possible.
One.
If you can, I'll give you all the ISK on my tank alt and delete her. It's only about 20 million, but hey, free ISK. Good luck.
I want AV weapons - ANTI-VEHICLE WEAPONS - to be capable of having MINIMAL EFFECT on the targets they were DESIGNED TO ENGAGE.
It's perfectly fine that Swarm Launchers don't hit hard enough to significantly hurt a hardened tank.
It's NOT perfectly fine that the tank's regen rate is high enough that it's GAINING HP WHILE TAKING ANTI-VEHICLE FIRE.
If you have literally ONE shield tank against TWO players with Swarm Launchers, you'll only barely keep up with their regen while they're hardened.
What would be FAIR and REASONABLE here is if Swarms would hit with reduced damage so that they DON'T deal a signficant enough amount of damage to hurt, but they still hit JUST hard enough to cross the threshold AND BE TREATED AS AN AV WEAPON. They don't really hurt, but they stall your recovery. This means your tank can't literally say "lolno" to someone using PROTOTYPE ANTI-VEHICLE WEAPONS for 30 seconds at a time. |
Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
1810
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:33:00 -
[28] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Again............ it's an explosive weapon on a shield vehicle. These same people complain that their ARs don't do enough damage to vehicles. Find me ONE thread where I've asked for ARs to damage vehicles and it hasn't been obviously the most blatant sarcasm possible. One. If you can, I'll give you all the ISK on my tank alt and delete her. It's only about 20 million, but hey, free ISK. Good luck.
I want AV weapons - ANTI-VEHICLE WEAPONS - to be capable of having MINIMAL EFFECT on the targets they were DESIGNED TO ENGAGE. It's perfectly fine that Swarm Launchers don't hit hard enough to significantly hurt a hardened tank. It's NOT perfectly fine that the tank's regen rate is high enough that it's GAINING HP WHILE TAKING ANTI-VEHICLE FIRE. If you have literally ONE shield tank against TWO players with Swarm Launchers, you'll only barely keep up with their regen while they're hardened.
What would be FAIR and REASONABLE here is if Swarms would hit with reduced damage so that they DON'T deal a signficant enough amount of damage to hurt, but they still hit JUST hard enough to cross the threshold AND BE TREATED AS AN AV WEAPON. They don't really hurt, but they stall your recovery. This means your tank can't literally say "lolno" to someone using PROTOTYPE ANTI-VEHICLE WEAPONS for 30 seconds at a time. There is no fair and reasonable with sparks.
It's just tanks win forever, no one else's tanks, just his.
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Flix Keptick
Red Star.
EoN.
1696
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:56:00 -
[29] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:Another day, another issue who woulda have guessed it? We all know that tanks have now a pretty high passive recharge rate but can be stopped by using "AV". This is not correct, in fact its terribly wrong and i call it exploitation on the highest lvl.
Why so? Its quite simple cause a full volley of swarms is not capable to get over the damage threshold when hardeners are active.
Why is this a problem? It is a problem cause shield tanks have allready a natural passive resistance against swarm launchers which is around 30% and then you put another 60% damage reduction on top and this means that swarms wont get trough the damage threshold.
So we have a weapon which does pathetic damage while a hardener is running and no im not talking about 2 or 3 hardeners its just 1. We are getting to a point where the passive recharge is greater then the inflicted damage and this means you inflict 0HP damage to a tank.
What needs to be changed is that the damage threshold needs to be drastically brought down to a lower damage. It cant be that a full volley of proto swarms with 3 complex damage mods deals effectively 0 damage and doesnt even stop their shields from recharging.
Now for those who will say "those tanks have a shield booster". Nope they dont i tested it by myself and grabbed a sica with 2 hardeners and activated only 1 at a time. Then i standed on open field and let some redberrys shot my tank with proto swarms. The result is the problem stated above. Oh did i forget to mention that this works for ALL shield vehicles? I made a poat about this problem on the second day of 1.7 -_-
Going to stay out of AV/V debates, better for my sanity.
GÿåTank driverGÿå
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jerrmy12 kahoalii
The dyst0pian Corporation
Zero-Day
154
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 06:34:00 -
[30] - Quote
Atiim wrote:inb4 LOLTank Brigade saying "I should be able to rep through your Swarms"
inb4 LOLav Brigade saying "i should be able to easily solo tanks with STD av"
recuruit link
5 to 11 mil isk per 100k recuruit
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jerrmy12 kahoalii
The dyst0pian Corporation
Zero-Day
154
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 06:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:You're using a weapon that does explosive damage on a shield vehicle. You expect it to be super effective? They're using an anti-vehicle weapon on a vehicle. I expect it to be at least mildly effective. Particularly considering we're even seeing this happen Proto AV vs. Militia Hardeners. EDIT: I don't think that Swarms should deal huge amounts of damage to hardened shield tanks - AND THEY DON'T. But they should at least interrupt our repair.
then we have the armor>shield inbalance like infantry
recuruit link
5 to 11 mil isk per 100k recuruit
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The dark cloud
The Rainbow Effect
1974
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 06:38:00 -
[32] - Quote
oh wow tankers beeing upset cause a AV weapon is pointed at them. We doesnt even have the patch for longer then 2 weeks and they getting used to their crutch. I see arguments from tankers in here who clearly use 3 hardeners on their gunnlogi fully aware of this issue and continue to exploit it.
The argument that "a explosive weapon shouldnt wreck me" is nonesnense. If you play as infantry you cant cherry pick it to ignore a guy with a massdriver only because you use a caldari suit. Tanks should not be allowed to ignore swarm launchers in the same manner. Sure it should deal less damage to you but it should stop your passive shield recharge and inflict some damage. Not as much as a forgegun but it should still do it.
I shall show you a world, a world which you cant imagine, a world full off butthurt n00bs at the other end of my gun
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4259
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 07:00:00 -
[33] - Quote
jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:You're using a weapon that does explosive damage on a shield vehicle. You expect it to be super effective? They're using an anti-vehicle weapon on a vehicle. I expect it to be at least mildly effective. Particularly considering we're even seeing this happen Proto AV vs. Militia Hardeners. EDIT: I don't think that Swarms should deal huge amounts of damage to hardened shield tanks - AND THEY DON'T. But they should at least interrupt our repair. then we have the armor>shield inbalance like infantry
Really? That's why armour tanks would still get wrecked while a shield tank would pretty much ONLY have its regen interrupted with barely a scratch from a Swarm Launcher while hardened.
And why CRs and RRs hit shields harder than armour, probably...  |
Our Deepest Regret
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
417
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 07:02:00 -
[34] - Quote
Not gonna lie. I've perched my gunny on cliffs, taking pot shots at people, and been annoyed to hear that Hssssssss sound that tells you a swarm launcher is about to hit you. I've also activated my hardener, and continued going about my business, not moving from my spot, while those selfsame swarmers continued to shoot at me and achieve nothing.
I LOVE leaving them to stew in their own impotence. I love meandering about my day, casually ignoring their attempts to harm me, because, you see, I hate them. I love hanging around listening to the click-click-click of remote explosives being laid down by those stupid scouts who think they're being so clever, only to turn on my second hardener before the first one fades, and render their attempted demolition USELESS. Oh, I'm sorry, was that your remote explosive or did my Gunlogi just fart? He gets so careless when he's blasting your teammates balls off with his particle accelerator.
Forge Gunners and Jihad jeepers are the only A.V. I respect. They put it on the line, they earn their kills. |
The dark cloud
The Rainbow Effect
1974
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Posted - 2013.12.20 07:07:00 -
[35] - Quote
Our Deepest Regret wrote:Not gonna lie. I've perched my gunny on cliffs, taking pot shots at people, and been annoyed to hear that Hssssssss sound that tells you a swarm launcher is about to hit you. I've also activated my hardener, and continued going about my business, not moving from my spot, while those selfsame swarmers continued to shoot at me and achieve nothing.
I LOVE leaving them to stew in their own impotence. I love meandering about my day, casually ignoring their attempts to harm me, because, you see, I hate them. I love hanging around listening to the click-click-click of remote explosives being laid down by those stupid scouts who think they're being so clever, only to turn on my second hardener before the first one fades, and render their attempted demolition USELESS. HA!
Forge Gunners and Jihad jeepers are the only A.V. I respect. They put it on the line, they earn their kills.
Excuse me how do forgegunners put something on the line? a swarmer needs to be closer to the tank then the forgegunner and jihad LAV's are cheaper to run then a proto swarm launcher fit. Stop trolling in a seriious discussion or you will face consequences.
I shall show you a world, a world which you cant imagine, a world full off butthurt n00bs at the other end of my gun
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Our Deepest Regret
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
417
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Posted - 2013.12.20 07:16:00 -
[36] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:
Excuse me how do forgegunners put something on the line? a swarmer needs to be closer to the tank then the forgegunner and jihad LAV's are cheaper to run then a proto swarm launcher fit. Stop trolling in a seriious discussion or you will face consequences.
Noooo! Not consequences! Not thoooose!
My K/D/R is .54 (I share the game), and I've only got ten million isk in the bank. You have nothing you can threaten me with. Nothing. Good DAY to you, Sir. |
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1536
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Posted - 2013.12.20 07:24:00 -
[37] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:oh wow tankers beeing upset cause a AV weapon is pointed at them. We doesnt even have the patch for longer then 2 weeks and they getting used to their crutch. I see arguments from tankers in here who clearly use 3 hardeners on their gunnlogi fully aware of this issue and continue to exploit it.
The argument that "a explosive weapon shouldnt wreck me" is nonesnense. If you play as infantry you cant cherry pick it to ignore a guy with a massdriver only because you use a caldari suit. Tanks should not be allowed to ignore swarm launchers in the same manner. Sure it should deal less damage to you but it should stop your passive shield recharge and inflict some damage. Not as much as a forgegun but it should still do it.
edit:
oh and dont come me with the eve nonesense. On eve you can pick 4 damage types for missiles. EM, thermal, kinetic and explosive. So if we would follow that principle i could change out the ammo in my swarm launcher.
So then more than 2 damage mods on a dropsuit is an exploit. More than 2 extenders or plates is an exploit. Using officer weapons in pubs is an exploit.
See where I'm going with that? You don't? Oh well.
Again, I never knew a play style was a crutch.
Infantry cries for tank changes, and they don't like them. Tell them to use vehicles, they complain, and use cars anyway
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Our Deepest Regret
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
418
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Posted - 2013.12.20 07:43:00 -
[38] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:
So then more than 2 damage mods on a dropsuit is an exploit. More than 2 extenders or plates is an exploit. Using officer weapons in pubs is an exploit.
See where I'm going with that? You don't? Oh well.
Again, I never knew a play style was a crutch.
Swarms are fit for blowing up LAVS and Installations, and nothing more. CCP should refund players the SP they invested in SW and remove them completely: Lock-on weaponry that tracks never fit in with anything else in this game. Forge guns have to be aimed. Grenades have to be aimed. Jeeps have been driven accurately. Swarms require you to pop your head out of cover once every few seconds. I've sat and watched how SW users play. Bunny hopping explosive ordinance?? It's like they're trying to do the Halo rocket jump. |
Bojo The Mighty
Zanzibar Concept
2430
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 08:03:00 -
[39] - Quote
Hardeners + Boosters (shield tank) makes for one godly tank does it not?
I Buy Officer Weapons and IA5 Pistols Contact me for arrangements; 200k-500k a pop
Lentarr Legionaire
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Our Deepest Regret
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
418
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Posted - 2013.12.20 08:11:00 -
[40] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Hardeners + Boosters (shield tank) makes for one godly tank does it not?
If you run three hardeners, you're permanently at 60% resistance and basically immune to Jihad Jeeps, and all AV weaponry. (still crap against rails and proto blasters.)
Two hardeners and an extender are nice for missile tanking. Using the extender means you've basically already got a booster activated ahead of time. It's crap if a maddy catches you off-guard though.
Two damage amps and a shield hardener makes for some godly tank melting on a rail gun fit. You'll two-shot anything in front of you. Burns through armor hardeners like they aren't even there. Almost too much power for a mortal to have.
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Mordecai Snake
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
14
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Posted - 2013.12.20 08:23:00 -
[41] - Quote
Am I the only one who uses flux grenades to take out a tank's shields before trying to attack it with swarms? |
Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
342
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Posted - 2013.12.20 08:25:00 -
[42] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:So we have a weapon which does pathetic damage while a hardener is running and no im not talking about 2 or 3 hardeners its just 1. We are getting to a point where the passive recharge is greater then the inflicted damage and this means you inflict 0HP damage to a tank.
The dark cloud wrote:So we have a weapon which does pathetic damage while a hardener is running and no im not talking about 2 or 3 hardeners its just 1.
The dark cloud wrote:So we have a weapon which does pathetic damage while a hardener is running
The dark cloud wrote:pathetic damage while a hardener is running
The dark cloud wrote:while a hardener is running
*twitch*
Okay people, let's get something straight here. You are not supposed to be able to down a vehicle while a hardener is running. That is the entire point of them. You have to wait until they turn off to attack. Your attack is supposed to be ineffective when hardeners are active.
NOW THAT BEING SAID
Tanks can easily escape AV's retribution once their hardeners cycle off. Another issue is people stacking hardeners so there is almost no downtime. I've heard stories about tanks able to permarun hardeners by fitting 3 (I haven't done the math to figure out if this is true, but I can see it being possible) So as a vehicle pilot (I try to run dropships more but I run tanks as well)
1. Limit one hardener per vehicle. ONE hardener, to reiterate. Gives us vehicles our window of opportunity, but ensures that window closes and AV windows open.
2. Reduce tank speed drastically. LAVs and dropships have vastly lower defences than tanks, and should be able to outrun/dodge swarms (dodging means swarms need to not turn on a dime, but a different argument for a different time) As of now, tanks can easily escape from swarms. THIS SHOULD NOT BE. Swarms should easily catch a tank, and this is where the issue is coming from. Tanks can outrun swarms, or at the least get behind cover before they reach them. This should not be the case.
3. Increase tank prices. Tanks should be powerful, but it should HURT when you lose one. You should be afraid to lose them. That would help stop the tank spam. A large part of the spam is because they are so cheap to replace. |
Our Deepest Regret
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
418
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Posted - 2013.12.20 08:25:00 -
[43] - Quote
Mordecai Snake wrote:Am I the only one who uses flux grenades to take out a tank's shields before trying to attack it with swarms?
Honest to god, you probably are. I don't think I've ever been hit by a flux grenade. |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
1984
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Posted - 2013.12.20 08:28:00 -
[44] - Quote
If you shoot a standard flaylock at a caldari assault shield tanked to the hilt and only hit him with one lot of splash damage, you do hardly any damage but you do reset his shield recharge. This is an ineffective way of dealing damage but it does still stop shield recharge; the same should apply to tanks. Even one volley of militia swarms should stop reset the shield recharge delay. And no one here is saying that those same swarms should do any significant damage at all, let alone kill hardened shield tanks; only stop recharge, so quit with the whole "AVers want to solo STD shield tanks with MLT swarms" nonsense.
Dust2Dust - Funeral arrangements for all of New Eden. Join our public channel D2D. to chat and squad with us.
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1539
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Posted - 2013.12.20 08:29:00 -
[45] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:
1. Limit one hardener per vehicle. ONE hardener, to reiterate. Gives us vehicles our window of opportunity, but ensures that window closes and AV windows open.
2. Reduce tank speed drastically. LAVs and dropships have vastly lower defences than tanks, and should be able to outrun/dodge swarms (dodging means swarms need to not turn on a dime, but a different argument for a different time) As of now, tanks can easily escape from swarms. THIS SHOULD NOT BE. Swarms should easily catch a tank, and this is where the issue is coming from. Tanks can outrun swarms, or at the least get behind cover before they reach them. This should not be the case.
3. Increase tank prices. Tanks should be powerful, but it should HURT when you lose one. You should be afraid to lose them. That would help stop the tank spam. A large part of the spam is because they are so cheap to replace.
LOL Bugger off with this one hardener BS. We're able to fit our tanks any way we want. Get the heck out of here and distribute your ISK.
If any of us are to accept that, we need to accept some serious limitations to how dropsuits can be fit.
Infantry cries for tank changes, and they don't like them. Tell them to use vehicles, they complain, and use cars anyway
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Shion Typhon
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
334
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Posted - 2013.12.20 08:30:00 -
[46] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:In all honesty, a scrub with a militia SL, or a couple of scrubs with SLs, shouldn't reduce my shields and force me to go into hiding. What should force me into hiding is a well planned and thought out attack, and not someone who can point a shoot with a fire and forget weapon.
Yet you're happy to derp around the map in EZ-mode requiring no support from anyone, only your own trigger finger to mow down infantry. You just point and shoot and don't even have to seek cover yet somehow infantry must come up with the Sun Tzu master plan to have a chance.
I just can't see how you can post stuff like that without realising how stupid it sounds. |
Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
848
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Posted - 2013.12.20 08:44:00 -
[47] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:Another day, another issue who woulda have guessed it? We all know that tanks have now a pretty high passive recharge rate but can be stopped by using "AV". This is not correct, in fact its terribly wrong and i call it exploitation on the highest lvl.
Why so? Its quite simple cause a full volley of swarms is not capable to get over the damage threshold when hardeners are active.
Why is this a problem? It is a problem cause shield tanks have allready a natural passive resistance against swarm launchers which is around 30% and then you put another 60% damage reduction on top and this means that swarms wont get trough the damage threshold.
So we have a weapon which does pathetic damage while a hardener is running and no im not talking about 2 or 3 hardeners its just 1. We are getting to a point where the passive recharge is greater then the inflicted damage and this means you inflict 0HP damage to a tank.
What needs to be changed is that the damage threshold needs to be drastically brought down to a lower damage. It cant be that a full volley of proto swarms with 3 complex damage mods deals effectively 0 damage and doesnt even stop their shields from recharging.
Now for those who will say "those tanks have a shield booster". Nope they dont i tested it by myself and grabbed a sica with 2 hardeners and activated only 1 at a time. Then i standed on open field and let some redberrys shot my tank with proto swarms. The result is the problem stated above. Oh did i forget to mention that this works for ALL shield vehicles?
Thank you for keeping the topic alive DC. I used to hate your speed tanks back in late Codex/early Chromosome (so long ago I really can't recall when it was honestly lol), it's nice of you to stand up for the ones left behind now that it's your class's turn on top of the heap. Salute o7
Ulthane: Now get off of my property, 'fore more pigeons come looking an' crap on me yard!
Overlord's: Ulath Bosse Zero
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Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
1984
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 08:59:00 -
[48] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:If any of us are to accept that, we need to accept some serious limitations to how dropsuits can be fit.
Because there's even one dropsuit fit that can become completely invulnerable to even one weapon?
Dust2Dust - Funeral arrangements for all of New Eden. Join our public channel D2D. to chat and squad with us.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
6490
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 09:07:00 -
[49] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:
You're using a weapon that does explosive damage on a shield vehicle. You expect it to be super effective?
Defender of mechanical Crutches to the rescueeeeeeeeeeeeee....
Sssh, we all know Spkr loves his crutches.
Level 6 Forum Warrior
Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Gallente FW - 'Turalyon'
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Justicar Karnellia
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement
Caldari State
291
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Posted - 2013.12.20 09:08:00 -
[50] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Again............ it's an explosive weapon on a shield vehicle. These same people complain that their ARs don't do enough damage to vehicles. Find me ONE thread where I've asked for ARs to damage vehicles and it hasn't been obviously the most blatant sarcasm possible. One. If you can, I'll give you all the ISK on my tank alt and delete her. It's only about 20 million, but hey, free ISK. Good luck.
I want AV weapons - ANTI-VEHICLE WEAPONS - to be capable of having MINIMAL EFFECT on the targets they were DESIGNED TO ENGAGE. It's perfectly fine that Swarm Launchers don't hit hard enough to significantly hurt a hardened tank. It's NOT perfectly fine that the tank's regen rate is high enough that it's GAINING HP WHILE TAKING ANTI-VEHICLE FIRE. If you have literally ONE shield tank against TWO players with Swarm Launchers, you'll only barely keep up with their regen while they're hardened.
What would be FAIR and REASONABLE here is if Swarms would hit with reduced damage so that they DON'T deal a signficant enough amount of damage to hurt, but they still hit JUST hard enough to cross the threshold AND BE TREATED AS AN AV WEAPON. They don't really hurt, but they stall your recovery. This means your tank can't literally say "lolno" to someone using PROTOTYPE ANTI-VEHICLE WEAPONS for 30 seconds at a time.
I'd say don't feed that troll - Go and read his pro-tank responses in other threads and it's summed as "AV are stupid" "I should be able to kill everybody - infantry and tanks, and there should be no counter"....
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
342
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Posted - 2013.12.20 09:16:00 -
[51] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:[quote=Alena Ventrallis]LOL Bugger off with this one hardener BS. We're able to fit our tanks any way we want. Get the heck out of here and distribute your ISK.
If any of us are to accept that, we need to accept some serious limitations to how dropsuits can be fit.
Tanks are limited by slot layout, and pg/cpu limits. Your argument holds no merit. One hardener per vehicle. |
Agent Monroe
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2013.12.20 09:18:00 -
[52] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:This had been mentioned on day one of 1.7 and was discussed for several days after.
The comments about it died down, but it's still a problem.
I think that while hardeners are active, the threshold should adjust to allow swarms to hit it through hardeners, OR swarms need a small buff to damage.
Swarms are anti armor they shouldn't be used against Shields anyways.
This message was brought to you by Gives Zero Flux.
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Our Deepest Regret
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
418
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 09:27:00 -
[53] - Quote
Shion Typhon wrote:
Yet you're happy to derp around the map in EZ-mode requiring no support from anyone, only your own trigger finger to mow down infantry. You just point and shoot and don't even have to seek cover yet somehow infantry must come up with the Sun Tzu master plan to have a chance.
I just can't see how you can post stuff like that without realising how stupid it sounds.
I would really like to see tanks confined to fighting other vehicles, and blowing up resources like installations and supply depots. The current fault lays entirely with Blaster turrets. I really wish that people would speak up about these overpowered infantry mulchers, because they're the chief source of grief. Get those fixed, and people won't care about destroying tanks, because tanks won't be their chief concern.
Blaster turrets need either:
A. A shorter clip. 200 rounds between reloading is ridiculous. No precision necessary, just hold the trigger down and track your target's movement. Racking up a high kill count is easy when you can just park and go daka-daka-daka-daka-daka! Overheating is not doing its job and preventing this. Shorter rounds might, and it's something that should be explored.
or
B. Drastically reduced Accuracy. |
Agent Monroe
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2013.12.20 09:39:00 -
[54] - Quote
Justicar Karnellia wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Again............ it's an explosive weapon on a shield vehicle. These same people complain that their ARs don't do enough damage to vehicles. Find me ONE thread where I've asked for ARs to damage vehicles and it hasn't been obviously the most blatant sarcasm possible. One. If you can, I'll give you all the ISK on my tank alt and delete her. It's only about 20 million, but hey, free ISK. Good luck.
I want AV weapons - ANTI-VEHICLE WEAPONS - to be capable of having MINIMAL EFFECT on the targets they were DESIGNED TO ENGAGE. It's perfectly fine that Swarm Launchers don't hit hard enough to significantly hurt a hardened tank. It's NOT perfectly fine that the tank's regen rate is high enough that it's GAINING HP WHILE TAKING ANTI-VEHICLE FIRE. If you have literally ONE shield tank against TWO players with Swarm Launchers, you'll only barely keep up with their regen while they're hardened.
What would be FAIR and REASONABLE here is if Swarms would hit with reduced damage so that they DON'T deal a signficant enough amount of damage to hurt, but they still hit JUST hard enough to cross the threshold AND BE TREATED AS AN AV WEAPON. They don't really hurt, but they stall your recovery. This means your tank can't literally say "lolno" to someone using PROTOTYPE ANTI-VEHICLE WEAPONS for 30 seconds at a time. I'd say don't feed that troll - Go and read his pro-tank responses in other threads and it's summed as "AV are stupid" "I should be able to kill everybody - infantry and tanks, and there should be no counter"....
Lol Garret's a horrible tanker I've killed him plenty of times. Even once with remotes attached to his HAV.
This message was brought to you by Gives Zero Flux.
(Insert Witty Ad Here)
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CrotchGrab 360
656
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Posted - 2013.12.20 09:47:00 -
[55] - Quote
Here come the HAV DEFENSE LEAGUE
what you're forgetting is that this is PRO AV vs MLT tanks
I can't wait for the re-balance so sp4kr can create 1000 threads a day QQing about how
his tank isn't invincible  |
pegasis prime
BIG BAD W0LVES
1453
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Posted - 2013.12.20 09:52:00 -
[56] - Quote
CrotchGrab 360 wrote:Here come the HAV DEFENSE LEAGUE what you're forgetting is that this is PRO AV vs MLT tanks I can't wait for the re-balance so sp4kr can create 1000 threads a day QQing about how his tank isn't invincible
yip were here and were not going any whare , I do agree that a mlt havs tanking ability should not equal that of a well fit std hav,
now if im in a sica with all mlt mods and run 1 hardener and 1 booster , when that hardener is up ( 60%) shields ill not receive critical damage a plasma cannon on the other hand will tear through a shields hardners , pro swarms will still melt a soma or maddy and pro plasma canons will destroy shielded havs , each has its own counter and if used appropriately will destroy its target..
folks are to used to targeting shield tanks with explosives ment for armour not wepons like th plc that is designed to rip apart shields.
Its gone from suck .....to blow
level 1 forum warrior
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MINA Longstrike
2Shitz 1Giggle
173
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Posted - 2013.12.20 10:50:00 -
[57] - Quote
Shion Typhon wrote:Harpyja wrote:In all honesty, a scrub with a militia SL, or a couple of scrubs with SLs, shouldn't reduce my shields and force me to go into hiding. What should force me into hiding is a well planned and thought out attack, and not someone who can point a shoot with a fire and forget weapon. Yet you're happy to derp around the map in EZ-mode requiring no support from anyone, only your own trigger finger to mow down infantry. You just point and shoot and don't even have to seek cover yet somehow infantry must come up with the Sun Tzu master plan to have a chance. I just can't see how you can post stuff like that without realising how stupid it sounds.
No sun-tzu master plan is needed, its simply 'don't use explosives on hardened shields' if you rally want the kill grab a plc + flux grenades and maybe some re's. throw fluxes shoot tank. |
Mregomies
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
137
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Posted - 2013.12.20 10:52:00 -
[58] - Quote
forget swarms... call MLT sica and railr4pe the tank! problem solved... next question.
Suomi, Finland, PERKELE!
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Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
382
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Posted - 2013.12.20 10:53:00 -
[59] - Quote
Jason Pearson wrote:Use PLCs, Swarms for Armor k?
PLC??? We should use a PLC??? You do know that its a one shot weapon with charge? Even on Proto that means 1 shot every 4 seconds that do 1155 damage (witout mods or proficiency). Even an unfitted Sica would can withstand 3-4 shots, thats 12 to 16 seconds with a slow firing projectile! |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4263
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Posted - 2013.12.20 10:53:00 -
[60] - Quote
Agent Monroe wrote:Lol Garret's a horrible tanker I've killed him plenty of times. Even once with remotes attached to his HAV.
Really?
There's a SLIGHT problem with this story.
1. I've only signed into this account on my PS3 once since they made REs sticky, and I didn't play a single match while there.
2. I don't own any tanks on this account.
3. You don't know my tank alt's name.
4. My tanks have so far never been killed by REs. I once took some damage from a Madrugar (it died) then got hit by REs before being finished by a Forge Gun, but that was pre-Uprising.
So who exactly do you THINK you've killed "plenty of times"? |
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4263
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Posted - 2013.12.20 11:01:00 -
[61] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:*twitch*
Okay people, let's get something straight here. You are not supposed to be able to down a vehicle while a hardener is running. That is the entire point of them. You have to wait until they turn off to attack. Your attack is supposed to be ineffective when hardeners are active.
There's a pretty big difference between dealing minimal damage, but STILL HAVING THAT MINIMAL DAMAGE COUNT, and what happens with Swarm Launchers against Hardeners.
The regen rate is FASTER than Swarm DPS, and in spite of TAKING HITS FROM PROTOTYPE AV WEAPONRY, the shield regen isn't being interrupted. So you're using a 60% damage resist, and effectively turning an AV weapon into not merely reduced damage, but all it's doing is SLOWING DOWN YOUR REGEN. Reducing your rate of healing is not minor damage. It's non-damaging hits. Anti-vehicle weapons should NOT be hitting zero effect because of a 60% resist.
If you fire a Plasma Cannon at an armour tank while its shields are down, it can have THREE hardeners active and see more impact than a shield tank gets from a Swarm Launcher while running only ONE.
Quote:1. Limit one hardener per vehicle. ONE hardener, to reiterate. Gives us vehicles our window of opportunity, but ensures that window closes and AV windows open.
Not only is this a terrible idea at its base when literally every other module, active or otherwise, is allowed multiples fitted, but it also doesn't solve the problem because one hardener is enough to literally turn Swarm Launchers into a pretty light show with a smaller effect than a passive regen that doesn't even require a module to activate. |
Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
383
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Posted - 2013.12.20 11:09:00 -
[62] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:*twitch*
Okay people, let's get something straight here. You are not supposed to be able to down a vehicle while a hardener is running. That is the entire point of them. You have to wait until they turn off to attack. Your attack is supposed to be ineffective when hardeners are active. There's a pretty big difference between dealing minimal damage, but STILL HAVING THAT MINIMAL DAMAGE COUNT, and what happens with Swarm Launchers against Hardeners. The regen rate is FASTER than Swarm DPS, and in spite of TAKING HITS FROM PROTOTYPE AV WEAPONRY, the shield regen isn't being interrupted. So you're using a 60% damage resist, and effectively turning an AV weapon into not merely reduced damage, but all it's doing is SLOWING DOWN YOUR REGEN. Reducing your rate of healing is not minor damage. It's non-damaging hits. Anti-vehicle weapons should NOT be hitting zero effect because of a 60% resist. If you fire a Plasma Cannon at an armour tank while its shields are down, it can have THREE hardeners active and see more impact than a shield tank gets from a Swarm Launcher while running only ONE. Quote:1. Limit one hardener per vehicle. ONE hardener, to reiterate. Gives us vehicles our window of opportunity, but ensures that window closes and AV windows open. Not only is this a terrible idea at its base when literally every other module, active or otherwise, is allowed multiples fitted, but it also doesn't solve the problem because one hardener is enough to literally turn Swarm Launchers into a pretty light show with a smaller effect than a passive regen that doesn't even require a module to activate.
Yes the limit of one hardener would not solve the underlying problem but at least it gives AV a chance. With enough hardeners you could have active hardeners nearly non stop, that creates only one big wave of oppertunity for the HAV Pilot. |
Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
1811
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Posted - 2013.12.20 11:14:00 -
[63] - Quote
Mordecai Snake wrote:Am I the only one who uses flux grenades to take out a tank's shields before trying to attack it with swarms?
Pre speed tanks, it was a good plan.
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4265
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Posted - 2013.12.20 11:30:00 -
[64] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:Yes the limit of one hardener would not solve the underlying problem but at least it gives AV a chance. With enough hardeners you could have active hardeners nearly non stop, that creates only one big wave of oppertunity for the HAV Pilot.
With the slot limit, it's theoretically possible to have a single hardener running permanently, but to do so, you have NOTHING else on your tank, no raw HP buff, no booster to quickly recover when needed, and no option to trigger a second hardener without delay once you're into your hardening pattern. Unfortunately, because of the issue with swarms, there's a primary AV weapon that even a full Militia tank can ignore to Proto level. Limiting to one hardener reduces the strategies open to tankers, reduces the variety in fits, and reduces the complexity of tanking down to ONE hit-and-run approach.
Fixing the core problem so that a hardened shield tank can't literally pretend that Prototype AV players don't exist just because they brought "the wrong gun" is a solution. Your proposal is not.
If I bring a Combat Rifle, I can still hurt a guy with his shields up. If I bring a Scrambler Rifle, I still deal armour damage. Bringing the wrong weapon in infantry combat doesn't make you instantly unable to scratch your target.
My Missile Tank can hit enemy shield tanks hard enough to see their shields drop EVEN WHILE HARDENED, and I'm only running a Standard turret, with no damage mods. When AV infantry using the infantry equivalent - an explosive weapon - fire at the same hardened MILITIA tank, the tank's regen is faster than they can apply damage while using PROTOTYPE gear.
Yes, it's reasonable for my large turret to be more effective. But it's still not reasonable for the Swarm Launcher to be literally a non-presence. Even if it's hitting for such reduced damage it may as well not be hurting, it's reasonable to expect ANTI-VEHICLE weaponry to have enough impact to delay shield recharge.
My suggestion of adjusting the threshold along with resistance makes sense by those standards. Anything that's treated as AV while your tank isn't hardened will be treated as AV when it is. The damage is still reduced, but the threshold effectively looks at the base damage of the weapon instead of the modified damage applied through hardeners. It wouldn't be - as was suggested on the first page - an "exception" being made for Swarm launchers. It would simply be the difference between AV weapons and non-AV. |
pegasis prime
BIG BAD W0LVES
1455
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Posted - 2013.12.20 11:31:00 -
[65] - Quote
I support the one hardener restriction as yes it will negate swarms on my gunlogi but only for 30 seconds(max skills) and then be very vulnerable for 42 seconds which is plenty of time to kill a tank with swarms or forges or even gosh the plasma cannon,
The problem isn't just the tanks its how av are going about destroying them i.e. iv shot many forge gunnners and swarm launchers who still stand out in the open and attempt to spam av at me
there is also things av needs to consider when taking down a tank
firstly is it shield or armour -
iif it is shield based then you need high alpha damage weapons to take them down especially when the hardners are active, right so that means you need a single shot high damage projectile that has bonuses towards shield damage like say the plasma cannon ( don't laugh I have tested it up to the kla and found it to cut through hardeners and make a shield pilot freek out and retreat even when the hardeners are up ) also the forge has great alpha damage and will tear through shields as will flux nades . the problem with swarms is that they are a tricle attack weapon that deals explosive damage that already has a -11% damage to shields combind with 60% resists ....well you get where im going .
now if it is armour then you need something to tricke away at those reps as they constantly rep that's what the swarm is for the fact it has a damage bonus to armour tells you this +29% damage to armour infact as well as av nades having the same bonus tells you that they are meant for armoured vehicles not shield based vehicles.
Its gone from suck .....to blow
level 1 forum warrior
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Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
384
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 11:48:00 -
[66] - Quote
pegasis prime wrote:I support the one hardener restriction as yes it will negate swarms on my gunlogi but only for 30 seconds(max skills) and then be very vulnerable for 42 seconds which is plenty of time to kill a tank with swarms or forges or even gosh the plasma cannon, The problem isn't just the tanks its how av are going about destroying them i.e. iv shot many forge gunnners and swarm launchers who still stand out in the open and attempt to spam av at me there is also things av needs to consider when taking down a tank firstly is it shield or armour - iif it is shield based then you need high alpha damage weapons to take them down especially when the hardners are active, right so that means you need a single shot high damage projectile that has bonuses towards shield damage like say the plasma cannon ( don't laugh I have tested it up to the kla and found it to cut through hardeners and make a shield pilot freek out and retreat even when the hardeners are up ) also the forge has great alpha damage and will tear through shields as will flux nades . the problem with swarms is that they are a tricle attack weapon that deals explosive damage that already has a -11% damage to shields combind with 60% resists ....well you get where im going . now if it is armour then you need something to tricke away at those reps as they constantly rep that's what the swarm is for the fact it has a damage bonus to armour tells you this +29% damage to armour infact as well as av nades having the same bonus tells you that they are meant for armoured vehicles not shield based vehicles.
Regarding non moving AVs well it depends on the Weapon they use some forges can only be charged while not moving and you cant Sprint while chargin or with a charged forge and heavies in general are slow...
Similar is true for swarms if you move too fast the lock will break and getting the lock is easier when standing rather still as you need to stay on target for a while to get the lock.
For the shield argument there is not much AV can do against shields other than throwing a flux as there is no viable AV weapon thats is effective vs shields (the PLC is a bad joke as AV weapon) .
If you than take into account that even a full clip of proto swarms is not enough to bring down a soma the grenade choice is difficult you may need he AV variant to finish a soma or the flux to do anything against a sica... |
Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
849
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 12:19:00 -
[67] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Not only is this a terrible idea at its base when literally every other module, active or otherwise, is allowed multiples fitted, but it also doesn't solve the problem because one hardener is enough to literally turn Swarm Launchers into a pretty light show with a smaller effect than a passive regen that doesn't even require a module to activate.
Nitro boosters don't allow multiples. Nor do DCU's. Just sayin'.
Ulthane: Now get off of my property, 'fore more pigeons come looking an' crap on me yard!
Overlord's: Ulath Bosse Zero
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Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
1985
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Posted - 2013.12.20 12:40:00 -
[68] - Quote
Please stop talking about AV killing tanks - that is not what this thread is about and simply derails the discussion into AV vs HAV poop throwing. This thread is about an AV weapon not resetting a vehicle's shield recharge delay.
If a proto swarm dealing 1320 damage in one volley gets reduced by 30% for shields and then 60% for a hardener, that's 370 damage it should be dealing. Why would 370 damage be below the threshold for inducing the shield recharge delay? That's far too high a threshold.
By that maths, militia swarms should be dealing 246 damage per volley through shields and hardeners, which also seems like a perfectly reasonable amount to reset the the delay.
And remember, I'm not saying those weapons should be doing more than that amount of damage - only that they should be inducing the delay.
Dust2Dust - Funeral arrangements for all of New Eden. Join our public channel D2D. to chat and squad with us.
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Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
384
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 12:53:00 -
[69] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Please stop talking about AV killing tanks - that is not what this thread is about and simply derails the discussion into AV vs HAV poop throwing. This thread is about an AV weapon not resetting a vehicle's shield recharge delay.
If a proto swarm dealing 1320 damage in one volley gets reduced by 30% for shields and then 60% for a hardener, that's 370 damage it should be dealing. Why would 370 damage be below the threshold for inducing the shield recharge delay? That's far too high a threshold.
By that maths, militia swarms should be dealing 246 damage per volley through shields and hardeners, which also seems like a perfectly reasonable amount to reset the the delay.
And remember, I'm not saying those weapons should be doing more than that amount of damage - only that they should be inducing the delay.
I think this is because the damage treshold is calculated per missile so you don't inflict 1320 damage but 6 x 220 that comes down to 62 Damage per missile. If you look at this the treshold is not that high as this is less damage than a SCR round would do (or a Tac AR)... |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
EoN.
2001
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 13:04:00 -
[70] - Quote
So OP is an idiot
Why are you shooting swarms at a gunlogi?
Why are you shooting swarms at a gunlogi with its hardeners on?
When swarms deal 80% damage at best to shields and the hardener adds on another 60% resistance to anymore incoming damage, why are you suprised that my regen can rep through the swarm damage when at most you are doing 20% damage to me?
Intelligence is OP
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
Renegade Alliance
319
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 13:09:00 -
[71] - Quote
Atiim wrote:inb4 LOLTank Brigade saying "I should be able to rep through your Swarms"
I should be able to rep through your swarms, duh.
I'm tha bear, and you are the beehive.
Deal with it.
No but seriously, tankers are saying nothing of the sort. We actually understand the swarm problem and have been communicating it for a while now.
Same with tank spam, do you think we like it?
Just yesterday I was playing some ambush with my corp. I wanted to run infantry, but every single goddamn match had a tank in it. So I had to call one out to deal with it, every single match. It was that or let those milita tanks own my side. I murdered a lot of tanks, LOTS of tanks.
But in all honesty, I'm just a sick of it as you.
Nuff Said
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Surt gods end
Demon Ronin
1386
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 13:11:00 -
[72] - Quote
*what you looking at?*
For that pendulum. I like it when CCP is all quite. After That dev invasion they had a chance to see these tank spam and AV nerf for themselves. |
Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
384
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 13:13:00 -
[73] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Korvin Lomont wrote:Yes the limit of one hardener would not solve the underlying problem but at least it gives AV a chance. With enough hardeners you could have active hardeners nearly non stop, that creates only one big wave of oppertunity for the HAV Pilot. With the slot limit, it's theoretically possible to have a single hardener running permanently, but to do so, you have NOTHING else on your tank, no raw HP buff, no booster to quickly recover when needed, and no option to trigger a second hardener without delay once you're into your hardening pattern. Unfortunately, because of the issue with swarms, there's a primary AV weapon that even a full Militia tank can ignore to Proto level. Limiting to one hardener reduces the strategies open to tankers, reduces the variety in fits, and reduces the complexity of tanking down to ONE hit-and-run approach. Fixing the core problem so that a hardened shield tank can't literally pretend that Prototype AV players don't exist just because they brought "the wrong gun" is a solution. Your proposal is not. If I bring a Combat Rifle, I can still hurt a guy with his shields up. If I bring a Scrambler Rifle, I still deal armour damage. Bringing the wrong weapon in infantry combat doesn't make you instantly unable to scratch your target. My Missile Tank can hit enemy shield tanks hard enough to see their shields drop EVEN WHILE HARDENED, and I'm only running a Standard turret, with no damage mods. When AV infantry using the infantry equivalent - an explosive weapon - fire at the same hardened MILITIA tank, the tank's regen is faster than they can apply damage while using PROTOTYPE gear. Yes, it's reasonable for my large turret to be more effective. But it's still not reasonable for the Swarm Launcher to be literally a non-presence. Even if it's hitting for such reduced damage it may as well not be hurting, it's reasonable to expect ANTI-VEHICLE weaponry to have enough impact to delay shield recharge. My suggestion of adjusting the threshold along with resistance makes sense by those standards. Anything that's treated as AV while your tank isn't hardened will be treated as AV when it is. The damage is still reduced, but the threshold effectively looks at the base damage of the weapon instead of the modified damage applied through hardeners. It wouldn't be - as was suggested on the first page - an "exception" being made for Swarm launchers. It would simply be the difference between AV weapons and non-AV.
I would prefere a real solution to that problem as well but I don't know whats easier to implement. Also even Two hardeners reduce the effective time of vulnerability to 15 sec compared to a whopping 60 sec of protection. That does not seem like a balanced layout...
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Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
384
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 13:17:00 -
[74] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:So OP is an idiot
Why are you shooting swarms at a gunlogi?
Why are you shooting swarms at a gunlogi with its hardeners on?
When swarms deal 80% damage at best to shields and the hardener adds on another 60% resistance to anymore incoming damage, why are you suprised that my regen can rep through the swarm damage when at most you are doing 20% damage to me?
You should know there is NO shield fucussed AV weapon. And please don't come up with the PLC this is not an AV weapon in its current design. So whats left only the flux grenade a weapon that do enourmous damage to shields but is very ineffective versus moving targets and does no damage to armor at all. So it leaves you plenty of time to react when you get hit by a flux...especially when it took several flux nades to bring down a sicas shield... |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
EoN.
2001
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 13:23:00 -
[75] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:So OP is an idiot
Why are you shooting swarms at a gunlogi?
Why are you shooting swarms at a gunlogi with its hardeners on?
When swarms deal 80% damage at best to shields and the hardener adds on another 60% resistance to anymore incoming damage, why are you suprised that my regen can rep through the swarm damage when at most you are doing 20% damage to me? You should know there is NO shield fucussed AV weapon. And please don't come up with the PLC this is not an AV weapon in its current design. So whats left only the flux grenade a weapon that do enourmous damage to shields but is very ineffective versus moving targets and does no damage to armor at all. So it leaves you plenty of time to react when you get hit by a flux...especially when it took several flux nades to bring down a sicas shield...
Sorry but PLC is a shield based AV weaopn weather you like it or not
Next best option is the FG which deals a mass amount of damage which does stop shield regen
Intelligence is OP
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Slag Emberforge
Immortal Retribution
340
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 13:24:00 -
[76] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:Django Quik wrote:Please stop talking about AV killing tanks - that is not what this thread is about and simply derails the discussion into AV vs HAV poop throwing. This thread is about an AV weapon not resetting a vehicle's shield recharge delay.
If a proto swarm dealing 1320 damage in one volley gets reduced by 30% for shields and then 60% for a hardener, that's 370 damage it should be dealing. Why would 370 damage be below the threshold for inducing the shield recharge delay? That's far too high a threshold.
By that maths, militia swarms should be dealing 246 damage per volley through shields and hardeners, which also seems like a perfectly reasonable amount to reset the the delay.
And remember, I'm not saying those weapons should be doing more than that amount of damage - only that they should be inducing the delay. I think this is because the damage treshold is calculated per missile so you don't inflict 1320 damage but 6 x 220 that comes down to 62 Damage per missile. If you look at this the treshold is not that high as this is less damage than a SCR round would do (or a Tac AR)...
This is correct, it is because the threshold is considered a static damage threshold, you must surpass the desired number in one it to induce delay. Unfortunately this is not a damage over time or any sort of floating calculation, If the damage is too low, nothing happens.
I agree this is stupid and was generated by laziness on CCPs part, if simple math equations are too difficult the fix would be to reduce number of swarms and increase damage in proportion to make individual missiles hit hard enough to "reset" recharge delay. This really is a vital part of taking a tank down, especially if you knock them around a bit and then they harden, all the damage is not just delayed, but wasted as is the ammo used.
Conversely I'd really like to see swappable ammo types. No offense but PLC is not the same as SL. If you want to have more tactics to be involved allow us to match out damage appropriately, or make AV similar in effect to Armor/Shield focused AI weapons. You can still kill its only slightly more difficult to do so, you aren't made to be the perfect shield tank killer with swarms or armor with a PLC.. Just my two cents. |
Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
384
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 13:26:00 -
[77] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Korvin Lomont wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:So OP is an idiot
Why are you shooting swarms at a gunlogi?
Why are you shooting swarms at a gunlogi with its hardeners on?
When swarms deal 80% damage at best to shields and the hardener adds on another 60% resistance to anymore incoming damage, why are you suprised that my regen can rep through the swarm damage when at most you are doing 20% damage to me? You should know there is NO shield fucussed AV weapon. And please don't come up with the PLC this is not an AV weapon in its current design. So whats left only the flux grenade a weapon that do enourmous damage to shields but is very ineffective versus moving targets and does no damage to armor at all. So it leaves you plenty of time to react when you get hit by a flux...especially when it took several flux nades to bring down a sicas shield... Sorry but PLC is a shield based AV weaopn weather you like it or not Next best option is the FG which deals a mass amount of damage which does stop shield regen
Correct me but the description of the PLC never stated to be an AV weapon. The only reference toward this is a DEV statement claiming this weapon was introduced as AV weapon. And how a singleshot weapon with slow reload and a slow moving dumbfire projectile should be an AV weapon is at least a very bad concept. Unless we get something to actually stop vehicles... |
Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
2318
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Posted - 2013.12.20 13:54:00 -
[78] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:First, you're using a weapon that is naturally resisted against by shield.
Second, you're using a weapon against hardened shields.
Third, you aren't getting past the damage threshold to stop shields from recharging.
In all honesty, a scrub with a militia SL, or a couple of scrubs with SLs, shouldn't reduce my shields and force me to go into hiding. What should force me into hiding is a well planned and thought out attack, and not someone who can point a shoot with a fire and forget weapon.
Yet MLT Scrubs with a tank should be able to survive my AV?
Anyways, man I wish my suit could rep through RRs when I'm shield tanking. I mean, they aren't using the correct damage type right?
It doesn't matter what weapon AV weapon is used against you, you shouldn't be able to have theoretical invulnerability from them.
Then again, it's not a tank so....
Holy Fudgenipples!!!
MY HMG WORKS!!! IT ACTUALLY WORKS!!!
\o/
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
EoN.
2003
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Posted - 2013.12.20 14:07:00 -
[79] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Korvin Lomont wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:So OP is an idiot
Why are you shooting swarms at a gunlogi?
Why are you shooting swarms at a gunlogi with its hardeners on?
When swarms deal 80% damage at best to shields and the hardener adds on another 60% resistance to anymore incoming damage, why are you suprised that my regen can rep through the swarm damage when at most you are doing 20% damage to me? You should know there is NO shield fucussed AV weapon. And please don't come up with the PLC this is not an AV weapon in its current design. So whats left only the flux grenade a weapon that do enourmous damage to shields but is very ineffective versus moving targets and does no damage to armor at all. So it leaves you plenty of time to react when you get hit by a flux...especially when it took several flux nades to bring down a sicas shield... Sorry but PLC is a shield based AV weaopn weather you like it or not Next best option is the FG which deals a mass amount of damage which does stop shield regen Correct me but the description of the PLC never stated to be an AV weapon. The only reference toward this is a DEV statement claiming this weapon was introduced as AV weapon. And how a singleshot weapon with slow reload and a slow moving dumbfire projectile should be an AV weapon is at least a very bad concept. Unless we get something to actually stop vehicles...
So PLC needs a buff but its still a shield based AV weapon
Intelligence is OP
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Alldin Kan
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
865
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 14:30:00 -
[80] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:Another day, another issue who woulda have guessed it? We all know that tanks have now a pretty high passive recharge rate but can be stopped by using "AV". This is not correct, in fact its terribly wrong and i call it exploitation on the highest lvl.
Why so? Its quite simple cause a full volley of swarms is not capable to get over the damage threshold when hardeners are active.
Why is this a problem? It is a problem cause shield tanks have allready a natural passive resistance against swarm launchers which is around 30% and then you put another 60% damage reduction on top and this means that swarms wont get trough the damage threshold.
So we have a weapon which does pathetic damage while a hardener is running and no im not talking about 2 or 3 hardeners its just 1. We are getting to a point where the passive recharge is greater then the inflicted damage and this means you inflict 0HP damage to a tank.
What needs to be changed is that the damage threshold needs to be drastically brought down to a lower damage. It cant be that a full volley of proto swarms with 3 complex damage mods deals effectively 0 damage and doesnt even stop their shields from recharging.
Now for those who will say "those tanks have a shield booster". Nope they dont i tested it by myself and grabbed a sica with 2 hardeners and activated only 1 at a time. Then i standed on open field and let some redberrys shot my tank with proto swarms. The result is the problem stated above. Oh did i forget to mention that this works for ALL shield vehicles?
Damage threshold should be at 40, most handheld weapon still can't do enough damage but will be enough for swarms and Large Blaster turrets (I was being repaired even though a tank was shooting at me).
Uprising 1.7 - TANKDOMINATION!!1!!1!
LOL Commando
LOL Plasma Cannon
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Darken-Sol
BIG BAD W0LVES
939
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Posted - 2013.12.20 14:35:00 -
[81] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Darken-Sol wrote:Atiim wrote:inb4 LOLTank Brigade saying "I should be able to rep through your Swarms" all three of them? Some of us run 3 hardeners. Derrr
the 3 is referring to the tank brigade, you really don't think. I thought everyone was just calling you stupid out of meanness.
Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
346
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Posted - 2013.12.20 15:40:00 -
[82] - Quote
To get back on topic:
Suppose instead of having a certain damage stop the Regan, being hit by certain weapons stops regen? So only swarms and forge guns can stop regen, but they stop Regan regardless of damage? I think Thats a bit excessive, perhaps a combination of weapon type and damage, but its a start. |
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1543
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Posted - 2013.12.20 16:00:00 -
[83] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:So OP is an idiot
Why are you shooting swarms at a gunlogi?
Why are you shooting swarms at a gunlogi with its hardeners on?
When swarms deal 80% damage at best to shields and the hardener adds on another 60% resistance to anymore incoming damage, why are you suprised that my regen can rep through the swarm damage when at most you are doing 20% damage to me? You should know there is NO shield fucussed AV weapon. And please don't come up with the PLC this is not an AV weapon in its current design. So whats left only the flux grenade a weapon that do enourmous damage to shields but is very ineffective versus moving targets and does no damage to armor at all. So it leaves you plenty of time to react when you get hit by a flux...especially when it took several flux nades to bring down a sicas shield...
You're obviously not good enough to use the plasma cannon. All fire and forget for you, and your face goes red when your swarms don't 2-shot a shield tank, no matter what the fit is, or who is piloting it.
There's also flux grenades. One of those and we're left with around 1400 shields. That's really not much, especially if you catch us by surprise. Guess what.... if you successfully time throwing 2 flux grenades, we have no more shield left. But trying to time 2 grenade throws is OP, STD flux should do 2600 damage to vehicle shields, right?
And several flux grenades? Well, let's see. A Sica has I think 2650 shields. A STD flux does 1200 damage. So 1200 + 1200 = 2400. Well, would you look at that, a Sica is left with around 250 shields. That's not much at all. If you could get someone that could, ahem, aim, you could basically have your way with that MLT tank.
When you say several, I'm guessing the blast radius of the first flux wasn't close enough to the tank to do full damage, which again, is an example of failed tactics and teamwork.
Infantry cries for tank changes, and they don't like them. Tell them to use vehicles, they complain, and use cars anyway
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Justin Tymes
Dem Durrty Boyz
Renegade Alliance
566
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Posted - 2013.12.20 16:19:00 -
[84] - Quote
Lol Flux Nades when tankers still move like LAVs. When was the last time anyone used Flux Nades on LAVs?
And here's the thing. If you you miraculously are able to hit at tank with 2 FLux Nades, by the time you try to lock on using swarms that tanker is out of your range. Well, at least if the tanker has a brain. |
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1546
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Posted - 2013.12.20 16:22:00 -
[85] - Quote
Justin Tymes wrote:Lol Flux Nades when tankers still move like LAVs. When was the last time anyone used Flux Nades on LAVs? And here's the thing. If you you miraculously are able to hit at tank with 2 FLux Nades, by the time you try to lock on using swarms that tanker is out of your range. Well, at least if the tanker has a brain.
That's why you don't do it alone. I can tell you're still trying to solo tanks. You're obviously not good enough.
Infantry cries for tank changes, and they don't like them. Tell them to use vehicles, they complain, and use cars anyway
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CharCharOdell
1819
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Posted - 2013.12.20 16:22:00 -
[86] - Quote
So you're mad because using explosives against shield tanks and it doesn't work... sounds like you're mad Cuz or bad
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
I like railguns.
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Smooth Assassin
Stardust incorporation
482
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Posted - 2013.12.20 16:23:00 -
[87] - Quote
Seriously, i want my scout buff.
Assassination is my thing.
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The dark cloud
The Rainbow Effect
1986
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 16:50:00 -
[88] - Quote
Just to let ya know even when swarms would overcome the threshold and stop shields from regen a proto swarm launcher would still need 7 hits in a row to deplete the shields of a gunnlogi who has his hardener running. And people seem to forget that shield tanks are supposed to be "hit and run" not "be a invincible fortress".
I shall show you a world, a world which you cant imagine, a world full off butthurt n00bs at the other end of my gun
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1546
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 16:51:00 -
[89] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:Just to let ya know even when swarms would overcome the threshold and stop shields from regen a proto swarm launcher would still need 7 hits in a row to deplete the shields of a gunnlogi who has his hardener running. And people seem to forget that shield tanks are supposed to be "hit and run" not "be a invincible fortress".
You're still using a weapon that has a severe disadvantage against shields. Why do you persist in complaining about it, when we've pointed out to you countless times that you're using the wrong weapon?
Infantry cries for tank changes, and they don't like them. Tell them to use vehicles, they complain, and use cars anyway
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Justin Tymes
Dem Durrty Boyz
Renegade Alliance
569
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Posted - 2013.12.20 16:59:00 -
[90] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Justin Tymes wrote:Lol Flux Nades when tankers still move like LAVs. When was the last time anyone used Flux Nades on LAVs? And here's the thing. If you you miraculously are able to hit at tank with 2 FLux Nades, by the time you try to lock on using swarms that tanker is out of your range. Well, at least if the tanker has a brain. That's why you don't do it alone. I can tell you're still trying to solo tanks. You're obviously not good enough.
I solo tanks just fine - with things that work. IE: REs.
If you can't solo tanks there is a numerical advantage the other team possesses. That's why you see tanks running around is Droves, because Militia tank > Proto Infantry. Of course you've already proven before that you don't care about the numbers when people post them up for you. |
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1547
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Posted - 2013.12.20 17:04:00 -
[91] - Quote
Justin Tymes wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Justin Tymes wrote:Lol Flux Nades when tankers still move like LAVs. When was the last time anyone used Flux Nades on LAVs? And here's the thing. If you you miraculously are able to hit at tank with 2 FLux Nades, by the time you try to lock on using swarms that tanker is out of your range. Well, at least if the tanker has a brain. That's why you don't do it alone. I can tell you're still trying to solo tanks. You're obviously not good enough. I solo tanks just fine - with things that work. IE: REs. If you can't solo tanks there is a numerical advantage the other team possesses. That's why you see tanks running around is Droves, because Militia tank > Proto Infantry. Of course you've already proven before that you don't care about the numbers when people post them up for you.
Numbers? What numbers? That tanks are tanks now?
Infantry cries for tank changes, and they don't like them. Tell them to use vehicles, they complain, and use cars anyway
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Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
1986
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Posted - 2013.12.20 17:46:00 -
[92] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:The dark cloud wrote:Just to let ya know even when swarms would overcome the threshold and stop shields from regen a proto swarm launcher would still need 7 hits in a row to deplete the shields of a gunnlogi who has his hardener running. And people seem to forget that shield tanks are supposed to be "hit and run" not "be a invincible fortress". You're still using a weapon that has a severe disadvantage against shields. Why do you persist in complaining about it, when we've pointed out to you countless times that you're using the wrong weapon?
He's not asking to be able to kill you - he's asking to be able to stop your shields regening, which is what should be happening.
Dust2Dust - Funeral arrangements for all of New Eden. Join our public channel D2D. to chat and squad with us.
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Slag Emberforge
Immortal Retribution
344
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Posted - 2013.12.20 17:58:00 -
[93] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:The dark cloud wrote:Just to let ya know even when swarms would overcome the threshold and stop shields from regen a proto swarm launcher would still need 7 hits in a row to deplete the shields of a gunnlogi who has his hardener running. And people seem to forget that shield tanks are supposed to be "hit and run" not "be a invincible fortress". You're still using a weapon that has a severe disadvantage against shields. Why do you persist in complaining about it, when we've pointed out to you countless times that you're using the wrong weapon? He's not asking to be able to kill you - he's asking to be able to stop your shields regening, which is what should be happening.
You'd have better luck explaining this to a cat, speaker doesn't have time for such petty, peasant, non-tanking notions such as reading or logic. |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
EoN.
2010
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Posted - 2013.12.20 18:03:00 -
[94] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:The dark cloud wrote:Just to let ya know even when swarms would overcome the threshold and stop shields from regen a proto swarm launcher would still need 7 hits in a row to deplete the shields of a gunnlogi who has his hardener running. And people seem to forget that shield tanks are supposed to be "hit and run" not "be a invincible fortress". You're still using a weapon that has a severe disadvantage against shields. Why do you persist in complaining about it, when we've pointed out to you countless times that you're using the wrong weapon? He's not asking to be able to kill you - he's asking to be able to stop your shields regening, which is what should be happening.
Hardener - 60%
Swarms do 80% vs shields, maybe even as low as 70%
Add them 2 together and swarms are barely doing 30% per volley
Also each missile hits on its own, so thats each missile only doing 30% or less which turns out not to be enough to stop the regen
The regen is working as intended, the hardener is working as intended, even the swarm launcher is working as intended, the player behind the trigger is not working as intended and needs a replacement brain
Intelligence is OP
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Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
389
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Posted - 2013.12.20 18:09:00 -
[95] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Korvin Lomont wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:So OP is an idiot
Why are you shooting swarms at a gunlogi?
Why are you shooting swarms at a gunlogi with its hardeners on?
When swarms deal 80% damage at best to shields and the hardener adds on another 60% resistance to anymore incoming damage, why are you suprised that my regen can rep through the swarm damage when at most you are doing 20% damage to me? You should know there is NO shield fucussed AV weapon. And please don't come up with the PLC this is not an AV weapon in its current design. So whats left only the flux grenade a weapon that do enourmous damage to shields but is very ineffective versus moving targets and does no damage to armor at all. So it leaves you plenty of time to react when you get hit by a flux...especially when it took several flux nades to bring down a sicas shield... You're obviously not good enough to use the plasma cannon. All fire and forget for you, and your face goes red when your swarms don't 2-shot a shield tank, no matter what the fit is, or who is piloting it. There's also flux grenades. One of those and we're left with around 1400 shields. That's really not much, especially if you catch us by surprise. Guess what.... if you successfully time throwing 2 flux grenades, we have no more shield left. But trying to time 2 grenade throws is OP, STD flux should do 2600 damage to vehicle shields, right? And several flux grenades? Well, let's see. A Sica has I think 2650 shields. A STD flux does 1200 damage. So 1200 + 1200 = 2400. Well, would you look at that, a Sica is left with around 250 shields. That's not much at all. If you could get someone that could, ahem, aim, you could basically have your way with that MLT tank. When you say several, I'm guessing the blast radius of the first flux wasn't close enough to the tank to do full damage, which again, is an example of failed tactics and teamwork.
Only REALLY stupid tankers would not activate their modules or flee once they get hit by a flux. And by the way I do not use the swarm any longer I start using RE's and well they work it's a bit risky to sneak up a tank but all in all better than running with a useless weapon.
Regarding the PLC it takes roughly 4.5 secs to get the second shot out of the PLC on proto. So it takes a huge time (in Dust terms) to kill a militia HAV with this thing, but I guess even that amount of time is still to fast for you . Currently the PLC works like a sidearm (in terms of AV) its just a finisher but takes the main weapon slot... |
AP Grasshopper
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
90
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Posted - 2013.12.20 18:09:00 -
[96] - Quote
Swarms vs shields... haha, save it for the armor tanks. |
lee corwood
Knights Of Ender
Public Disorder.
57
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Posted - 2013.12.20 18:18:00 -
[97] - Quote
As a proto swarmer, I'm surprised we're still complaining about this really. I don't bother to use it anymore and if I do its only to scare away a tank from an objective and honestly that's enough for me. I'd be happy to make Swarmers just equipment. The first week of 1.7 was rather ridiculous, but with each new game, I'm seeing more tank on tank action and rarely get killed by tankers anymore. I see a lot of (I'm guessing) newbies who are trying to run tanks and do a horrible job trying to shot me. Sometimes, I can literally run circles around them...until they run me over. But otherwise, most all maps have enough buildings to hide and let the tank do what it was supposed to do, SUPPORT the team and DENY ground. In all matches except 1, I've always had tankers on my team who would ask us to call out enemy tanks to help us. In only one game have I had a enemy tanker dominate us and he just happened to have a better effing tank.
However, CCP, two suggestions.I do however wish you'd increased the number of players allowed per map tho, as sometimes the maps get really sparse for us infantry folks. And secondly, make it so our own teams can have their tanks delivered without the enemy killing it before its release from the RDV. Seriously RDV....Let. Go. On Ashland, this is a big problem. There is no where in the red zone any of us can spawn that a tank can't speed their way in and back out before getting kicked from out of zone.
Minmatar Logisis | Heavy lover. Come get some badass Band-Aids from this chick
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Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
1987
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Posted - 2013.12.20 19:03:00 -
[98] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Django Quik wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:The dark cloud wrote:Just to let ya know even when swarms would overcome the threshold and stop shields from regen a proto swarm launcher would still need 7 hits in a row to deplete the shields of a gunnlogi who has his hardener running. And people seem to forget that shield tanks are supposed to be "hit and run" not "be a invincible fortress". You're still using a weapon that has a severe disadvantage against shields. Why do you persist in complaining about it, when we've pointed out to you countless times that you're using the wrong weapon? He's not asking to be able to kill you - he's asking to be able to stop your shields regening, which is what should be happening. Hardener - 60% Swarms do 80% vs shields, maybe even as low as 70% Add them 2 together and swarms are barely doing 30% per volley Also each missile hits on its own, so thats each missile only doing 30% or less which turns out not to be enough to stop the regen The regen is working as intended, the hardener is working as intended, even the swarm launcher is working as intended, the player behind the trigger is not working as intended and needs a replacement brain
When an AV weapon doesn't induce shield recharge delay, something is not working as intended.
Dust2Dust - Funeral arrangements for all of New Eden. Join our public channel D2D. to chat and squad with us.
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4274
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Posted - 2013.12.22 10:19:00 -
[99] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:You're obviously not good enough to use the plasma cannon. All fire and forget for you, and your face goes red when your swarms don't 2-shot a shield tank, no matter what the fit is, or who is piloting it.
you know full well that nobody in this thread is saying that Swarms should deal significant damage to a shield tank - let alone be able to 2-shot one. You also know that I'm not the only TANKER in this thread agreeing that an AV weapon should at least have some minimal effect against a tank when it hits, even if it's focused on the wrong damage type.
Quote:There's also flux grenades. One of those and we're left with around 1400 shields. That's really not much, especially if you catch us by surprise. Guess what.... if you successfully time throwing 2 flux grenades, we have no more shield left. But trying to time 2 grenade throws is OP, STD flux should do 2600 damage to vehicle shields, right?
Assuming you manage to be caught so off-guard that you take a Flux hit AND fail to activate your hardeners before the second throw, AND assuming you don't have a Heavy Shield Extender, you should see ALMOST all your shields gone "before you can react" - except for the part where you have plenty of time to react between the first throw and the second even if they cook the first grenade so you don't see the indicator and just move or change direction to avoid the blast.
Quote:And several flux grenades? Well, let's see. A Sica has I think 2650 shields. A STD flux does 1200 damage. So 1200 + 1200 = 2400. Well, would you look at that, a Sica is left with around 250 shields. That's not much at all. If you could get someone that could, ahem, aim, you could basically have your way with that MLT tank.
So you're saying that to completely remove the shields from an unmodded Militia tank, it will take more damage than 2 Standard Flux Grenades. I'd say that's sufficient to qualify as "several" when you take into account that it takes less time to turn your hardeners on than it does for the enemy to throw (particularly if they're cooking first) a second grenade after you've seen the first one hit. You're also forgetting the fact that the enemy grenadier will RUN OUT OF AMMO after 3 grenades and if you're hardened, that means they're 2 grenades short of actually getting through your shields, assuming you only have hardeners - at which point you can also safely assume that you now have 60 seconds - while they're standing IN GRENADE RANGE - to kill the guy throwing grenades at your tank.
Quote:When you say several, I'm guessing the blast radius of the first flux wasn't close enough to the tank to do full damage, which again, is an example of failed tactics and teamwork.
Or an example of being semi-competent at driving a tank and having someone trying to kill you with Flux Grenades.
But that diversion about Flux Grenades wasn't even the point of the thread anyway. The point is that Swarm Launchers appear NOT to be treated as AV weapons by shield tanks while hardened. Yes, they're an anti-armour AV weapon rather than anti-shield, but they're still an AV weapon, and they should still NOT be treated like small arms fire just because you have one MILITIA hardener on your MILITIA tank and that somehow means you repair fast enough to literally take LESS THAN ZERO DAMAGE from a weapon designed for killing tanks and incapable of even HURTING infantry.
As mentioned, if you can hit with a Plasma Cannon on a hardened armour tank, even with double hardeners and a repper, and even with just the Standard PLC, they hit hard enough to damage faster than the tank's regen. The armour tank isn't able to just sit there laughing at you while recovering from damage that other people dealt before they turned on their hardeners, they have to MOVE and FIGHT BACK and stop you from dealing damage while you're using the weapon they're meant to be strong against. Shield tanks can - with Militia hardeners and a Shield Extender for extra AP - literally ignore a guy with a Swarm Launcher EVEN IF THEY ALREADY TOOK DAMAGE. If you get hit by a Flux Grenade then the guy shoots with his Swarm Launcher, and you pop your hardeners, you'll be able to let him keep firing missiles at you and come out of the "fight" with more HP than when you got hit by the Flux.
It's fine that Swarms barely scratch a hardened shield tank. No matter how you phrase it, it's never going to be fine that shield tanks regen fast enough to be GAINING HEALTH WHILE BEING SHOT WITH ANTI-VEHICLE WEAPONS. |
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