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Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2013.12.20 04:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
This had been mentioned on day one of 1.7 and was discussed for several days after.
The comments about it died down, but it's still a problem.
I think that while hardeners are active, the threshold should adjust to allow swarms to hit it through hardeners, OR swarms need a small buff to damage. |
Garrett Blacknova
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4256
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Posted - 2013.12.20 05:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:You're using a weapon that does explosive damage on a shield vehicle. You expect it to be super effective?
They're using an anti-vehicle weapon on a vehicle. I expect it to be at least mildly effective. Particularly considering we're even seeing this happen Proto AV vs. Militia Hardeners.
EDIT: I don't think that Swarms should deal huge amounts of damage to hardened shield tanks - AND THEY DON'T. But they should at least interrupt our repair. |
Garrett Blacknova
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4258
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Posted - 2013.12.20 05:28:00 -
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Spkr4theDead wrote:Again............ it's an explosive weapon on a shield vehicle. These same people complain that their ARs don't do enough damage to vehicles.
Find me ONE thread where I've asked for ARs to damage vehicles and it hasn't been obviously the most blatant sarcasm possible.
One.
If you can, I'll give you all the ISK on my tank alt and delete her. It's only about 20 million, but hey, free ISK. Good luck.
I want AV weapons - ANTI-VEHICLE WEAPONS - to be capable of having MINIMAL EFFECT on the targets they were DESIGNED TO ENGAGE.
It's perfectly fine that Swarm Launchers don't hit hard enough to significantly hurt a hardened tank.
It's NOT perfectly fine that the tank's regen rate is high enough that it's GAINING HP WHILE TAKING ANTI-VEHICLE FIRE.
If you have literally ONE shield tank against TWO players with Swarm Launchers, you'll only barely keep up with their regen while they're hardened.
What would be FAIR and REASONABLE here is if Swarms would hit with reduced damage so that they DON'T deal a signficant enough amount of damage to hurt, but they still hit JUST hard enough to cross the threshold AND BE TREATED AS AN AV WEAPON. They don't really hurt, but they stall your recovery. This means your tank can't literally say "lolno" to someone using PROTOTYPE ANTI-VEHICLE WEAPONS for 30 seconds at a time. |
Garrett Blacknova
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4259
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Posted - 2013.12.20 07:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:You're using a weapon that does explosive damage on a shield vehicle. You expect it to be super effective? They're using an anti-vehicle weapon on a vehicle. I expect it to be at least mildly effective. Particularly considering we're even seeing this happen Proto AV vs. Militia Hardeners. EDIT: I don't think that Swarms should deal huge amounts of damage to hardened shield tanks - AND THEY DON'T. But they should at least interrupt our repair. then we have the armor>shield inbalance like infantry
Really? That's why armour tanks would still get wrecked while a shield tank would pretty much ONLY have its regen interrupted with barely a scratch from a Swarm Launcher while hardened.
And why CRs and RRs hit shields harder than armour, probably...  |
Garrett Blacknova
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4263
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Posted - 2013.12.20 10:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
Agent Monroe wrote:Lol Garret's a horrible tanker I've killed him plenty of times. Even once with remotes attached to his HAV.
Really?
There's a SLIGHT problem with this story.
1. I've only signed into this account on my PS3 once since they made REs sticky, and I didn't play a single match while there.
2. I don't own any tanks on this account.
3. You don't know my tank alt's name.
4. My tanks have so far never been killed by REs. I once took some damage from a Madrugar (it died) then got hit by REs before being finished by a Forge Gun, but that was pre-Uprising.
So who exactly do you THINK you've killed "plenty of times"? |
Garrett Blacknova
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4263
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Posted - 2013.12.20 11:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:*twitch*
Okay people, let's get something straight here. You are not supposed to be able to down a vehicle while a hardener is running. That is the entire point of them. You have to wait until they turn off to attack. Your attack is supposed to be ineffective when hardeners are active.
There's a pretty big difference between dealing minimal damage, but STILL HAVING THAT MINIMAL DAMAGE COUNT, and what happens with Swarm Launchers against Hardeners.
The regen rate is FASTER than Swarm DPS, and in spite of TAKING HITS FROM PROTOTYPE AV WEAPONRY, the shield regen isn't being interrupted. So you're using a 60% damage resist, and effectively turning an AV weapon into not merely reduced damage, but all it's doing is SLOWING DOWN YOUR REGEN. Reducing your rate of healing is not minor damage. It's non-damaging hits. Anti-vehicle weapons should NOT be hitting zero effect because of a 60% resist.
If you fire a Plasma Cannon at an armour tank while its shields are down, it can have THREE hardeners active and see more impact than a shield tank gets from a Swarm Launcher while running only ONE.
Quote:1. Limit one hardener per vehicle. ONE hardener, to reiterate. Gives us vehicles our window of opportunity, but ensures that window closes and AV windows open.
Not only is this a terrible idea at its base when literally every other module, active or otherwise, is allowed multiples fitted, but it also doesn't solve the problem because one hardener is enough to literally turn Swarm Launchers into a pretty light show with a smaller effect than a passive regen that doesn't even require a module to activate. |
Garrett Blacknova
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4265
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Posted - 2013.12.20 11:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:Yes the limit of one hardener would not solve the underlying problem but at least it gives AV a chance. With enough hardeners you could have active hardeners nearly non stop, that creates only one big wave of oppertunity for the HAV Pilot.
With the slot limit, it's theoretically possible to have a single hardener running permanently, but to do so, you have NOTHING else on your tank, no raw HP buff, no booster to quickly recover when needed, and no option to trigger a second hardener without delay once you're into your hardening pattern. Unfortunately, because of the issue with swarms, there's a primary AV weapon that even a full Militia tank can ignore to Proto level. Limiting to one hardener reduces the strategies open to tankers, reduces the variety in fits, and reduces the complexity of tanking down to ONE hit-and-run approach.
Fixing the core problem so that a hardened shield tank can't literally pretend that Prototype AV players don't exist just because they brought "the wrong gun" is a solution. Your proposal is not.
If I bring a Combat Rifle, I can still hurt a guy with his shields up. If I bring a Scrambler Rifle, I still deal armour damage. Bringing the wrong weapon in infantry combat doesn't make you instantly unable to scratch your target.
My Missile Tank can hit enemy shield tanks hard enough to see their shields drop EVEN WHILE HARDENED, and I'm only running a Standard turret, with no damage mods. When AV infantry using the infantry equivalent - an explosive weapon - fire at the same hardened MILITIA tank, the tank's regen is faster than they can apply damage while using PROTOTYPE gear.
Yes, it's reasonable for my large turret to be more effective. But it's still not reasonable for the Swarm Launcher to be literally a non-presence. Even if it's hitting for such reduced damage it may as well not be hurting, it's reasonable to expect ANTI-VEHICLE weaponry to have enough impact to delay shield recharge.
My suggestion of adjusting the threshold along with resistance makes sense by those standards. Anything that's treated as AV while your tank isn't hardened will be treated as AV when it is. The damage is still reduced, but the threshold effectively looks at the base damage of the weapon instead of the modified damage applied through hardeners. It wouldn't be - as was suggested on the first page - an "exception" being made for Swarm launchers. It would simply be the difference between AV weapons and non-AV. |
Garrett Blacknova
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4274
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Posted - 2013.12.22 10:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:You're obviously not good enough to use the plasma cannon. All fire and forget for you, and your face goes red when your swarms don't 2-shot a shield tank, no matter what the fit is, or who is piloting it.
you know full well that nobody in this thread is saying that Swarms should deal significant damage to a shield tank - let alone be able to 2-shot one. You also know that I'm not the only TANKER in this thread agreeing that an AV weapon should at least have some minimal effect against a tank when it hits, even if it's focused on the wrong damage type.
Quote:There's also flux grenades. One of those and we're left with around 1400 shields. That's really not much, especially if you catch us by surprise. Guess what.... if you successfully time throwing 2 flux grenades, we have no more shield left. But trying to time 2 grenade throws is OP, STD flux should do 2600 damage to vehicle shields, right?
Assuming you manage to be caught so off-guard that you take a Flux hit AND fail to activate your hardeners before the second throw, AND assuming you don't have a Heavy Shield Extender, you should see ALMOST all your shields gone "before you can react" - except for the part where you have plenty of time to react between the first throw and the second even if they cook the first grenade so you don't see the indicator and just move or change direction to avoid the blast.
Quote:And several flux grenades? Well, let's see. A Sica has I think 2650 shields. A STD flux does 1200 damage. So 1200 + 1200 = 2400. Well, would you look at that, a Sica is left with around 250 shields. That's not much at all. If you could get someone that could, ahem, aim, you could basically have your way with that MLT tank.
So you're saying that to completely remove the shields from an unmodded Militia tank, it will take more damage than 2 Standard Flux Grenades. I'd say that's sufficient to qualify as "several" when you take into account that it takes less time to turn your hardeners on than it does for the enemy to throw (particularly if they're cooking first) a second grenade after you've seen the first one hit. You're also forgetting the fact that the enemy grenadier will RUN OUT OF AMMO after 3 grenades and if you're hardened, that means they're 2 grenades short of actually getting through your shields, assuming you only have hardeners - at which point you can also safely assume that you now have 60 seconds - while they're standing IN GRENADE RANGE - to kill the guy throwing grenades at your tank.
Quote:When you say several, I'm guessing the blast radius of the first flux wasn't close enough to the tank to do full damage, which again, is an example of failed tactics and teamwork.
Or an example of being semi-competent at driving a tank and having someone trying to kill you with Flux Grenades.
But that diversion about Flux Grenades wasn't even the point of the thread anyway. The point is that Swarm Launchers appear NOT to be treated as AV weapons by shield tanks while hardened. Yes, they're an anti-armour AV weapon rather than anti-shield, but they're still an AV weapon, and they should still NOT be treated like small arms fire just because you have one MILITIA hardener on your MILITIA tank and that somehow means you repair fast enough to literally take LESS THAN ZERO DAMAGE from a weapon designed for killing tanks and incapable of even HURTING infantry.
As mentioned, if you can hit with a Plasma Cannon on a hardened armour tank, even with double hardeners and a repper, and even with just the Standard PLC, they hit hard enough to damage faster than the tank's regen. The armour tank isn't able to just sit there laughing at you while recovering from damage that other people dealt before they turned on their hardeners, they have to MOVE and FIGHT BACK and stop you from dealing damage while you're using the weapon they're meant to be strong against. Shield tanks can - with Militia hardeners and a Shield Extender for extra AP - literally ignore a guy with a Swarm Launcher EVEN IF THEY ALREADY TOOK DAMAGE. If you get hit by a Flux Grenade then the guy shoots with his Swarm Launcher, and you pop your hardeners, you'll be able to let him keep firing missiles at you and come out of the "fight" with more HP than when you got hit by the Flux.
It's fine that Swarms barely scratch a hardened shield tank. No matter how you phrase it, it's never going to be fine that shield tanks regen fast enough to be GAINING HEALTH WHILE BEING SHOT WITH ANTI-VEHICLE WEAPONS. |
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