Should the logis be nerfed yet? As you said, they are too good at the moment, but I don't think you should start figuring out what nerf logis need until two things happen:

* Increasing the Time-To-Kill because a low TTK makes balancing things a serious pain and reduces the fun of the game
* Buff assaults. Currently the Assault class kills things just as fast as any other suit. That feels wrong to me. They should have an increased ability to attack (with some setbacks in other areas compared to other mediums like their total eHP) to define themselves as Assaults.

After those two things happen and the dust settles, then I feel it will be time to see what modifications you logis need.

Stop trying to drag down other game mechanics because you feel yours is lacking.

And they have less base stats, Because they're supposed to be less powerful than assault suits.

The original game designer made a foolish assumption that if they made a suit with 2 eq slots, people would use them.
If they used them, then they wouldnt have the power to super-tank with free slots.
But suit abusers dont use the slots.

"So force people to use the slots!!"

No, that's lame. you shouldnt force people to do stuff like that, any more than you should force people to use the grenade slot in other suits.
Besides, its really nice to give people the freedom to spec into only ONE proto suit, and be able to use it for logi type stuff, OR frontline assault type stuff.
Just dont make its frontline capabilities better than the supposed frontline suits.

There are only two remaining, reasonable ways to do that:
1. reduce power (not appropropriate, due to EQ demands)
or
2. reduce slots. Which is totally appropriate, since its effect is to directly remove the capability for abuse.

There has been no rational argument along the lines of "dont reduce slots, because..."
There has been only "(do this other thing instead)"

That would be because there IS NO rational argument to support keeping that number of slots on a logi.
That number of slots does not in any way match up with the supposed goal of making an equipment-deploying suit.

The goal here is to take away the super-tank-ness of logistics suits, that comes from stacking shields plus armor slots in the abnormally high slot count logis.
So take away the excessive slots.

Every single post I read from you makes my blood pressure rise.

...

I'm not going to bother quoting your wall of text, seeing as how it takes up 50% of a page.

I'm not going to lie, I completely forgot everything you were arguing or any good points you might have made when I read this part:



lolwut? I am correct in assuming that this was directed towards me? How am I dragging down other game mechanics because I feel that my mechanics are lacking? I did not at any point mention heavies, assaults, or scouts. I only mentioned logistics, which I believe you can guess from my name, are 99% of what I do. So they are not OTHER mechanics, they are MY mechanics.

By definition, I am requesting that my mechanics be nerfed because mine are severely over the mark. They are too powerful. The opposite of lacking. I regularly have the highest KD/R on my team whilst also having the highest WPs. That lack of a sidearm ain't doin' **** to my lethal capabilities.


Let me put it this way, have you read my signature? I didn't just put it there because I couldn't think of anything witty or funny to put in its place, I put that phrase as my signature because when I started this game, I was lucky to see a single other logistics player in the game. But now, at least 50% of every game I play is infested with logistics players.

Do you think the massive influx of logi's was brought on by a sudden bout of kindness? Yes, it is partly because of improved mechanics, like actually being able to revive people with nanite injectors, but it was mostly brought on by the power that the logi now possesses.

IKR!
His butthurt idiocy is infuriating! He has NO idea how balance works and merely wants his suit to be better.

I think the logi as we all used to think of it progressed into what it currently is because of poor logi mechanics.

1) The nanite injector being destroyed upon the release of Uprising
2) Not being able to see low armor on teammates thus having a rep tool with nobody to rep

Buffing the assault and heavy suits is a better option because it doesn't **** off the massive amount of logis in Dust.

Why **** off the majority of your player base?

I wouldn't doubt if it's 2:1 to the next closest suit

If medium frame suits weren't the only viable thing in this game, we wouldn't be having this argument.

I agree but it is what it is.

CCP has done a LOT of nerfing. I'd rather see a buff to the assault suit.

The heavy suit may be just fine after the upcoming buff. I think the scout suit still needs more.

Ships in Eve get damage bonuses all the time, why not give the assault suit damage bonuses? It solves the issue without pissing people off.

I have a question. What baseline do you guys judge how each suit should behave? Without considering stats, what do you think the pro and cons of each suit should be?

I've been using this mind set so far:

Assaults
++ Attack
- Defense

Assaults have the highest capability in killing things, but at the cost of dying faster.

Logistics
++ Buffing
+ Defense
- Attack
- Speed

Logistics get a little more defense and a greatly increased capability to enhance their team's performance while losing some combat capability and speed.

Sentinel
++ Defense
+/- Attack
-- Speed
- Equipment

Heavies get an enormous boost to their eHP but at the cost of speed, lack of equipment, and combat versatility. This does not mean the Heavy's weapons are weak but that they are situational. When that situation occurs their weapons are monstrous.

Scout
++ Stealth
++ Debuffing
++ Speed
-- Defense

To make up for their pitifully low health, scouts rely on not being seen, quickly eliminating threats, and escaping at high speeds if detected. In addition they also specialize in reducing the effectiveness of the enemy team.

Commando
+ Defense
+ Attack
- Speed

Something of a compromise between the Assault and Heavy, the commando has increased eHP over the standard medium but also is slower and features two light weapons to increase its combat capabilities.

The changes I would like to see for Logistics is a focus on slow regeneration, slower speed but comparable performance over one fight. The Assault should be able to rebound from damage more easily and relentlessly assault enemies, while the Logistics should be able to take out an enemy or two when they need to, without being able to regenerate and take out more twenty seconds later. This seems to have been CCP's intention with the lower shielding, lower shield recharge, lower speed and the armor repair bonus. It's just not enough.

Here's what I'd put up with.

• All equipment slots must be used.
• Kills earn 30% less WP. Assists and Support WP is increased by 20%.
• 25% reduction in maximum ammo per clip for Light weapons. Excludes Plasma Cannons, Mass Drivers/Shotguns/etcetera would be rounded up.
• 1 less grenade, no contact grenades.
• The same shield delays as a Heavy.


• Logistics bonus of 3% reduction in equipment fitting cost.

Forcing everyone to run full equipment reduces players trying to use it exclusively as an Assault suit. Lowering kill WP and raising assist WP puts less of a focus on killing as simply helping others kill, in general. Raising support WP obviously encourages supporting the team with the equipment. Lower Light weapon ammunition and grenades means Logistics players can take out an enemy or two, but cannot assault endlessly without having to reload and resupply. For instance, an Assault suit with AR would have 60/3 ammo and the Logistics would have 45/2. The shield delays force the Logistics to avoid engaging in combat excessively.

However, I doubt much will be done. Right now, CCP just wants to change the existing attributes to balance the classes. They'll just change around the slots, health and speed, as usual. These things don't directly enough affect its role; they just make it better, or worse.

Let me reiterate my point from the previous 49587340957 logi gate topics:

The original argument was that a logistics suit could leave their slots empty and get an extra tank with their additional CPU/PG. Though true, this only gimps the suit down to an extra tanky, slow, expensive assault suit that lacks a sidearm while ignoring the advantages equipment gives logistics suits. If you look back in earlier uprising topics and even pre-uprising, players warned CCP about the Caldari logistics because it was overpowering compared to other suits. That suit had ungodly amounts of CPU/PG, a racial bonus to shield extenders which added to shield > armor imbalance and a ridiculous module slot layout. (I still think it should be 5H/3L/4E, opposite of GaLogi) The suit was nerfed because all you would see were the top corps using CaLogi and TAC ARs. (which was stupid OP at the time too) The Amarr suit got a much needed buff to put it in line of its logi/assault hybrid design, and the other suits took a (arguably unnecessary) nerf to their shield recharge delay.

All we have is lingering butthurt from either misinformed players, players that don't understand the concept of incomparable game mechanics, tryhards that are upset over the tradeoffs between logistics and assault, or those just want yellow to = easy kill. Neither suit is better than the other, it just comes down to style of play. Assaults are faster, can use sidearms, have a (useless on some suits) shield recharge bonus, and better base stats. Logistics have the worst base stats out of all the medium frames, have base HP almost as low as scouts and no sidearm. (except for the Amarr, but doesn't have an offensive bonus compared to the assault) All this is traded for more equipment and module slots than assaults, which could be a weakness in itself since it makes the suit more equipment reliable and outright more expensive. I agree that some of the assaults bonuses are unattractive, but that's an assault problem, not a logistics problem.

Stop trying to drag down other game mechanics because you feel yours is lacking. I don't see scouts saying that other suits need to be nerfed because their suits are lacking, I don't see pilots complaining about other roles, and I sure as hell don't see heavies complaining either. If a commando requested for other suits to be nerfed, he'd probably be laughed off the forums. If a plasma cannoneer wanted every other weapon nerfed because their weapon was under performing, same result. There's been countless topics- even by you, Logi Bro, requesting for assaults to be buffed, but the logi witch hunt continues. What makes it worse is that we even have dedicated logibros trying to negotiate terms. This won't just end with one nerf, the witch hunt will continue and it will continue. If we get nerfed to sidearms, you'll start seeing people crying about sidearms being OP, (surprised the SMG has avoided the nerf bat this long, but that's a topic within itself) they'll want to reduce points for logis getting the occasional kill, when they're trying to protect their squad, they won't rest until our walking animation is us crawling backwards with our lubed yellow, target painted asses are pointed up in the air for the assaults to take what's theirs.

All this nerf everything mentality needs to stop. We need more diversity on the battlefield, not less. This game needs to be more team based, every class should have its usefulness on the field, whether it's a vehicle giving their team a needed advantage, a flanking scout that can run distraction, heavies that can push back or even annihilate anyone dumb enough to go toe-to-toe with them- with a gun that ****ing works!!! Stop the nerfing, stop listening to people upset over losing the occasional 1 v 1 duel in a team based game, STOP KILLING THIS GAME!!!

I ask you nicely, not just as a Minmatar, not just as a Logibro, but a fellow player. Stop the madness.

So your basically asking for even your teams logo to be useless.
I can hear it now
"Hey logi bro we got a guy down an I need ammo an reps"
Logi bro says
" good luck with that, I have 5 bullets in my gun, 400 total HP , an you guys already used my good hives an I couldn't even fit a needle on my suit since the nerf, so I'm sitting in a corner with profile dampeners on, next to the scout; we re placing bets on how long its gonna take for the assaults to ***** at ccp that they nerfed the logi so hard that theirs no hives, links or needles any more"

Yup way to think ahead

-Must fill all equipment slots to be a valid fitting.

It is a nerf to Logi that will not effect true logi at all. How could you get better than that?

SOMETHING needs to be changed, and as I clearly stated, I don't necessarily believe in any of the ones I listed, just the fact that something needs to change.

BTW, I only just now looked at this thread since I posted it, so to anyone reading this, I am not going to go through every single response and answer them one by one, just going to look at the first page or so.

I don't like it. Logis shouldn't have to fill all their equipment slots just like how Assaults aren't required to fit damage mods in all their high slots or scouts have to fit biotics, range extenders, or dampeners in all their low slots.

Of the proposed solutions, the one that seems the best to me is still reducing the Logi's overall cpu/pg but giving a sizeable reduction to support equipment fitting costs (while still keeping their +5 armor rep) such that a true Logi bro fitting high level equipment could have the same fittings as they do now. This way Logis could be amazing logi bros but still have the freedom to create non-logi bro fittings that aren't as good as the other suits in their intended roles (after the other suits get buffs to help them fulfill their role).