DUST Search - If the logistics suit were to get a nerf, what would you prefer it be?

Kallas Hallytyr wrote:

- Filling equipment slots is not exactly difficult, and others have pointed out that this doesn't really stop AssLogi's from running the way they try.

If they fit four standard equipment on a proto suit, sure. Maybe make equipment take up a minimum amount of CPU/PG if it's not taking up enough?

- Earning more/less WP is a bad idea. It allows spamming of equipment for WP gain (which people already complain about!) and doesn't really make sense: Logistics are frontline combatants, they're some field hospital orderly/munitions dump labourer, they're there in the thick of things but focused on keeping their team supplied. They're not pack mules there for everyone else to do everything else, they're just as important for pushing enemies off of an objective/holding off an attack.

Which makes no sense. Why should a Logistics player be as important as an Assault player for killing? Why not just run Logistics 24/7?

- Why should a Logi get less points for killing someone hacking/counter-hacking an objective than an Assault? It's just as important regardless of who does it.

True enough. Then again, a team spawn is a team spawn, regardless of whether or not there's a defend order on the guy that placed the uplink, right? Yet, they get more WP. I don't think healing someone a couple hundred points is worth a kill, either, but that exists to promote healing.

- Reduction in ammo makes little sense: I have lots of stuff, therefore I can't fit as many bullets in my gun! The lack of sidearm (aside from the more hybrid Amarrian suit) is already what you're suggesting. Logistics are less focused on killing, which is why in a protracted firefight they already have less ammunition because they only have a single weapon.

As an Amarr Logistics, I often forget this. However, the importance of the sidearm lies a lot in what weapon you use. If you run a Laser, yeah, it's going to sting. An Assault Rifle? Not a lot. Less ammo per clip means more reloading, which lowers overall DPS while still leaving burst potential to take out a few guys at a time.

- Less grenades? Meh, I could see that happening. I don't think that really impacts anyone, but it could help. The biggest issue with grenades is the ability to sit on a hive and spam, which is not tied to your maximum, just the rate at which you regain them.

Grenade resupply rate is a separate issue that also needs to be addressed, but you're right.

- Shield Delay: I don't really see the reasoning behind this. Is it because Logistics are worse at using shields? Is there an issue with Logi shield recharge?

No, my point was that it would make them less able to fight enemy after enemy after enemy. However, this doesn't really affect armor tankers and thus is a pretty poor idea, I admit.

- Fitting change I could see. The Role bonus' in general are pretty messed up and could do with some alteration.

The role bonuses are the easiest and first thing to fix. They suck at the moment.

Borne Velvalor wrote:

Forcing

- Keyword bolded.
Forcing people to do stuff a specific way in an MMO-type/sandbox world is generally a bad idea. Look at EVE: CCP has a general idea of how they think things will be used and then players turn around and use it for some crazy, hare-brained scheme that is cool and completely unintended.

Using a Logistics suit with one equipment slot exactly like an Assault suit is not a new, crazy way to use it. It just makes Assault suits more redundant.

- Certainly, focus should be placed on specific styles, but it should be done in the way that EVE does/DUST is beginning to look at: promote a specific way through certain buffs when adopting that style. The EVE ship-based bonus' are the perfect example. If we really want to talk about fixing the suits, we should be looking at having that level of change.

Suits themselves should have bonus' based upon what CCP intends that suit to do. For example (not necessarily what should be, just an example of how things would work, in my mind):

-snipped to fit under character limit-

(Again, these are simply examples.)

Making it more like EVE would, in my opinion, be a much better method of balancing suits, and it is an elegant method which I think CCP should be taking advantage of.

Good ideas. However, whether you buff some suits bonuses or nerf others', some suits will be worse at certain things than others. Just by having difference suits you "limit" players.

- 'Assaulting endlessly' is kind of mitigated by the existence of Nanohives, and being able to carry many means that a Logistics would still be able to do so. And as above, a Logistics Merc is still a frontline combatant: they should be able to fight, albeit with slightly reduced efficiency, and shouldn't be bad in combat but should be worse than Assaults: which is the case currently.

They are better in some ways, worse in others, dependent on race. Amarr Logistics without a Laser or Scrambler is a bit slower, in exchange for free armor repair and equipment slots. I don't know about you, but carrying a Compact Nanohive, Flux Scanner and Remote Explosives with 5 HP/S free armor repair negates that little bit of speed for me. A plate replaces the health. If you didn't like the speed, a Catalyzer can replace that instead.


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Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 900	Posted - 2013.11.05 11:16:00 - [1] - Quote The changes I would like to see for Logistics is a focus on slow regeneration, slower speed but comparable performance over one fight. The Assault should be able to rebound from damage more easily and relentlessly assault enemies, while the Logistics should be able to take out an enemy or two when they need to, without being able to regenerate and take out more twenty seconds later. This seems to have been CCP's intention with the lower shielding, lower shield recharge, lower speed and the armor repair bonus. It's just not enough. Here's what I'd put up with. All equipment slots must be used. Kills earn 30% less WP. Assists and Support WP is increased by 20%. 25% reduction in maximum ammo per clip for Light weapons. Excludes Plasma Cannons, Mass Drivers/Shotguns/etcetera would be rounded up. 1 less grenade, no contact grenades. The same shield delays as a Heavy. Logistics bonus of 3% reduction in equipment fitting cost. Forcing everyone to run full equipment reduces players trying to use it exclusively as an Assault suit. Lowering kill WP and raising assist WP puts less of a focus on killing as simply helping others kill, in general. Raising support WP obviously encourages supporting the team with the equipment. Lower Light weapon ammunition and grenades means Logistics players can take out an enemy or two, but cannot assault endlessly without having to reload and resupply. For instance, an Assault suit with AR would have 60/3 ammo and the Logistics would have 45/2. The shield delays force the Logistics to avoid engaging in combat excessively. However, I doubt much will be done. Right now, CCP just wants to change the existing attributes to balance the classes. They'll just change around the slots, health and speed, as usual. These things don't directly enough affect its role; they just make it better, or worse. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 908	Posted - 2013.11.05 14:32:00 - [2] - Quote OZAROW wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: The changes I would like to see for Logistics is a focus on slow regeneration, slower speed but comparable performance over one fight. The Assault should be able to rebound from damage more easily and relentlessly assault enemies, while the Logistics should be able to take out an enemy or two when they need to, without being able to regenerate and take out more twenty seconds later. This seems to have been CCP's intention with the lower shielding, lower shield recharge, lower speed and the armor repair bonus. It's just not enough. Here's what I'd put up with. All equipment slots must be used. Kills earn 30% less WP. Assists and Support WP is increased by 20%. 25% reduction in maximum ammo per clip for Light weapons. Excludes Plasma Cannons, Mass Drivers/Shotguns/etcetera would be rounded up. 1 less grenade, no contact grenades. The same shield delays as a Heavy. Logistics bonus of 3% reduction in equipment fitting cost. Forcing everyone to run full equipment reduces players trying to use it exclusively as an Assault suit. Lowering kill WP and raising assist WP puts less of a focus on killing as simply helping others kill, in general. Raising support WP obviously encourages supporting the team with the equipment. Lower Light weapon ammunition and grenades means Logistics players can take out an enemy or two, but cannot assault endlessly without having to reload and resupply. For instance, an Assault suit with AR would have 60/3 ammo and the Logistics would have 45/2. The shield delays force the Logistics to avoid engaging in combat excessively. However, I doubt much will be done. Right now, CCP just wants to change the existing attributes to balance the classes. They'll just change around the slots, health and speed, as usual. These things don't directly enough affect its role; they just make it better, or worse. So your basically asking for even your teams logo to be useless. I can hear it now "Hey logi bro we got a guy down an I need ammo an reps" Logi bro says " good luck with that, I have 5 bullets in my gun, 400 total HP , an you guys already used my good hives an I couldn't even fit a needle on my suit since the nerf, so I'm sitting in a corner with profile dampeners on, next to the scout; we re placing bets on how long its gonna take for the assaults to ***** at ccp that they nerfed the logi so hard that theirs no hives, links or needles any more" Yup way to think ahead Apparently, slower healing and 25% less ammo/grenades makes Logistics players completely useless? Where did I say it would be harder to fit a needle? Everyone would get a fitting cost REDUCTION for equipment. I'm a Logistics player myself. Maybe the Logistics could gain something else. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 912	Posted - 2013.11.06 06:44:00 - [3] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: - Filling equipment slots is not exactly difficult, and others have pointed out that this doesn't really stop AssLogi's from running the way they try. If they fit four standard equipment on a proto suit, sure. Maybe make equipment take up a minimum amount of CPU/PG if it's not taking up enough? - Earning more/less WP is a bad idea. It allows spamming of equipment for WP gain (which people already complain about!) and doesn't really make sense: Logistics are frontline combatants, they're some field hospital orderly/munitions dump labourer, they're there in the thick of things but focused on keeping their team supplied. They're not pack mules there for everyone else to do everything else, they're just as important for pushing enemies off of an objective/holding off an attack. Which makes no sense. Why should a Logistics player be as important as an Assault player for killing? Why not just run Logistics 24/7? - Why should a Logi get less points for killing someone hacking/counter-hacking an objective than an Assault? It's just as important regardless of who does it. True enough. Then again, a team spawn is a team spawn, regardless of whether or not there's a defend order on the guy that placed the uplink, right? Yet, they get more WP. I don't think healing someone a couple hundred points is worth a kill, either, but that exists to promote healing. - Reduction in ammo makes little sense: I have lots of stuff, therefore I can't fit as many bullets in my gun! The lack of sidearm (aside from the more hybrid Amarrian suit) is already what you're suggesting. Logistics are less focused on killing, which is why in a protracted firefight they already have less ammunition because they only have a single weapon. As an Amarr Logistics, I often forget this. However, the importance of the sidearm lies a lot in what weapon you use. If you run a Laser, yeah, it's going to sting. An Assault Rifle? Not a lot. Less ammo per clip means more reloading, which lowers overall DPS while still leaving burst potential to take out a few guys at a time. - Less grenades? Meh, I could see that happening. I don't think that really impacts anyone, but it could help. The biggest issue with grenades is the ability to sit on a hive and spam, which is not tied to your maximum, just the rate at which you regain them. Grenade resupply rate is a separate issue that also needs to be addressed, but you're right. - Shield Delay: I don't really see the reasoning behind this. Is it because Logistics are worse at using shields? Is there an issue with Logi shield recharge? No, my point was that it would make them less able to fight enemy after enemy after enemy. However, this doesn't really affect armor tankers and thus is a pretty poor idea, I admit. - Fitting change I could see. The Role bonus' in general are pretty messed up and could do with some alteration. The role bonuses are the easiest and first thing to fix. They suck at the moment. Borne Velvalor wrote: Forcing - Keyword bolded. Forcing people to do stuff a specific way in an MMO-type/sandbox world is generally a bad idea. Look at EVE: CCP has a general idea of how they think things will be used and then players turn around and use it for some crazy, hare-brained scheme that is cool and completely unintended. Using a Logistics suit with one equipment slot exactly like an Assault suit is not a new, crazy way to use it. It just makes Assault suits more redundant. - Certainly, focus should be placed on specific styles, but it should be done in the way that EVE does/DUST is beginning to look at: promote a specific way through certain buffs when adopting that style. The EVE ship-based bonus' are the perfect example. If we really want to talk about fixing the suits, we should be looking at having that level of change. Suits themselves should have bonus' based upon what CCP intends that suit to do. For example (not necessarily what should be, just an example of how things would work, in my mind): -snipped to fit under character limit- (Again, these are simply examples.) Making it more like EVE would, in my opinion, be a much better method of balancing suits, and it is an elegant method which I think CCP should be taking advantage of. Good ideas. However, whether you buff some suits bonuses or nerf others', some suits will be worse at certain things than others. Just by having difference suits you "limit" players. - 'Assaulting endlessly' is kind of mitigated by the existence of Nanohives, and being able to carry many means that a Logistics would still be able to do so. And as above, a Logistics Merc is still a frontline combatant: they should be able to fight, albeit with slightly reduced efficiency, and shouldn't be bad in combat but should be worse than Assaults: which is the case currently. They are better in some ways, worse in others, dependent on race. Amarr Logistics without a Laser or Scrambler is a bit slower, in exchange for free armor repair and equipment slots. I don't know about you, but carrying a Compact Nanohive, Flux Scanner and Remote Explosives with 5 HP/S free armor repair negates that little bit of speed for me. A plate replaces the health. If you didn't like the speed, a Catalyzer can replace that instead. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.