I want a Proto nerf / removal because it's quicker then the introduction of pro vehicles, once pro vehicles come in you can have your once OP swarms back.

That would be because in every match there is at least one HAV that would just sit there spamming infinate ammo at spawn points ... infantry have had to adapt or die ... literally !

I want a Proto nerf / removal because it's quicker then the introduction of pro vehicles, once pro vehicles come in you can have your once OP swarms back.

Right from my post 1720 dmg *1.35 armor efficiency*1.3 weak spot glitch=3018.6 dmg. The weak spot seams to be all over the tank, which then makes all of CCP's AV grenade numbers off by a factor between 1.5 or 2. Prove my math wrong please.

Ever hear of drop uplinks?

Yeah cos people are gonna go for the option of leaving that threat alive that's been raping them for insta-deaths n just run to the other side of the map to drop an uplink cos people are tolerant like that ... NO they're gonna spend some points in swarms or grenades n get some vengeance.

I can't be arsed reading back ... but I think Arkena was arguing against Ken who said a militia swarm could down a militia HAV in 2 volleys.

Edit ... also the noobs I meet in pub matches don't have access to proto suits either ! ... Don't argue about proto swarms damaging current HAVs ... campaign for a speedy introduction of proto vehicles !

Edit 2 : Bed time anyhow ... have fun o7

I don't think this is right either from experience but I'm willing to listen to reason if you have some explanation for the very common scenario I'll share with you. I try to take out tanks with PLC and Lai Dai grenades in the following obvious way...

1. PLC the shields away
2. Toss the Lai Dais
3. Try to hit it with the PLC if it survives

I probably have about a 50% success rate after step 3. If your 3,000 damage figure is correct than they would have to have over 9,000 armor. This is rarely the case as I have squad mates tell me how much armor it has at full before I chase after it so that I can act accordingly. Typically I hear numbers between 5,000-7,000 armor. Shields are more than destroyed by my proto to PLC so I can only assume that all 9,000 damage goes into the tanks armor. I understand that tanks have resistance and reps but for how fast this all happens I don't see how they can survive roughly 11,000 damage in about 4 seconds when caught off guard followed by another PLC shot half of the time.

If I am just missing some huge mechanic to tanking or messing up on math please let me know. But if you're claiming CCP has lied about the damage done by AV nades then I'd be interested in hearing your explanation for these encounters and how the grenades still can't destroy weakened tanks.

It is a 50 ton piece of reinforced polycrystaline steel you know...that suffers from poor hit detection, horrible radar, and lack of vehicle locks. If throw a drop uplink on a building and one guy spawns with proto AV, the show is over.

(Quote) A wiyrkomi swarm launcher with damage mods and proficiency V cannot even two shot one of the unfitted militia tanks (Quote)

*ahem* this is part of your contract (repeat after me):

"everything i've ever said on the subject of game balance, specifically balancing vehicles and AV is wrong, its so wrong that i feel sick that i even thought of them, and the fact that i spoke them makes me want to leap in front of a moving lav. i hereby retract all of my comments and enter an agreement with the dust community that it will not troll you overly and whack you with the logic bat too often on the basis that i will now refrain from posting in any vehicle or AV thread, this agreement is binding and can and will be edited in the future if the community deems it necessary."

thanks gbghg <---- If I made a mistake it's arkena's fault

Takahiros 'partner' will be here shortly to reply 10 times to each individual comment from anyone who isn't supporting the HAV campaign ... you wait n see lol ...

The fact that the tank had 4k armor and still died shows how AV is clearly overplaying it's role. The efficiency rating I am using confirm this. Under normal efficiency ratings you would not be able to do this.

No, it shows that he's got a wad of BS up his @$$

He's clearly lying, and If I said "oh yeah proto av is so overpowered, that I even saw it take out a CRU in 3 hits, all you biased tanking dumbf*ucks would have said, "yeah Atiim that's right, in fact I also saw it happen myself" or some dumb **** like that.

And I currently forgot her name, but someone came and basically saved me the time and proved all your "calculations" incorrect. You've yet to challenge said logic, so I fully believe that even you tankers don't believe the BS that your shoveling in CCP's yard.

You guys are pathetic. Just stop.

Thread is yours troll. Play nice.

No, it shows that he's got a wad of BS up his @$$

He's clearly lying, and If I said "oh yeah proto av is so overpowered, that I even saw it take out a CRU in 3 hits, all you biased tanking dumbf*ucks would have said, "yeah Atiim that's right, in fact I also saw it happen myself" or some dumb **** like that.

And I currently forgot her name, but someone came and basically saved me the time and proved all your "calculations" incorrect. You've yet to challenge said logic, so I fully believe that even you tankers don't believe the BS that your shoveling in CCP's yard.

You guys are pathetic. Just stop.

I have had several encounters with resistance running along with reps only to have 4 lai dai's kill me from behind. I was a 5700 armor. AV weapons tend to act very inconsistent compare to prior builds. I have seen lai dai's one shot soma's on more occasions than I have seen them do 1k damage or less. Swarms are the same way. There are times where a packed AV grenade does 1800 damage to my tank, even though it claims to only do 1300. Once again, going of what i have noticed as the person who has gone through half a million isk in their mercenary experience and seen it all.

don't revert to argumentum ad hominem, it makes you argument look weak.

humans kitten up, it's in our nature. the reload time on swarms is shorter than the cool down on reps. you're a tanker and an AV specialist so I'm wasting my time telling you this. if the tank is already at 2-4k hp something hit it and it's entirely possible that the tank fought through it's rep cycle and came out worse for wear, you're a tanker it's nothing uncommon is it? so there is now a 30 second cool down where that tank is completely vulnerable; is it not possible that the exact HP value was unimportant at the time and thus unremembered but somewhere between 2-4k? if the HP was unimportant (it was) than could it be within the Damage of a single MLT swarm clip? if the tanker in question's reps were off line and he was at 1/3 hp could it not be possible that he prioritized escape over removing the threat and simply didn't shoot back? perhaps he knew that whatever took out 2/3 of his HP previous was repositioning to finish the job and a single MLT swarm was not the primary concern. all of this is circumstantial of course but I think it is safe to say that there are to many variables in play to tell positively if it's lie or truth.

I'd write something witty to insult you and tarnish you name, perhaps making an allude to <30 IQ, but you've done a well enough job of destroying your reputation. I suppose I should thank you for saving me the trouble.

Well 4 Lai Dai at 1,720 would be 6,880 base and so 9,180 with the 1.35 armo efficiency. This means that your resistance/reps would have to stop about 3,480 damage in the time it took the 4 Lai Dai to hit you or you're toast. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you're implying that the main issue is the weak spot multiplier being glitched to all parts of the tank. If this were the case then the 4 Lai Dai would do 12,539 damage. But you survived the first 3 Lai Dai which would do 9,401 with the glitch which bumps the amount of damage you'd have compensate for through resistance/reps up to 3,700 in the time it takes to throw 3 Lai Dai. Now 3,700 is the minimum damage needed to "avoid" if you assume that the tank survives at 1hp (in reality it could be surviving at higher hp).

Are you modules/skills high enough to pull off that kind of survivability? It seems like a tall order but to support this glitch theory I think you'd need to be able to pull that off for the numbers to work.

Again, I'm not calling you out or anything. Just trying to reconcile my skepticism using your experience as a tanker and my experience using AV. It's rare I actually find someone to have a real discussion with about this

Lai Dai deals somewhere around 1700 damage

At least try using them

It's always been that way.

AV is only OP in the eyes of QQers like Void and Tankashiro because they are biased, and have never gone up against people with AV that don't hide in the redline.

And now AV is on the chop block because CCP has to many buckets of thier tears

You can stop with the sarcasm, as I am a tanker and it has been proven with facts. Even the OP can confirm that

My argument looks weak? Compared to what the POS arguments given by other tankers?

So far i've heard that AV shouldn't matter and we should make tanks the best counter to tanks, despite AV being ANTI-VEHICLE, AV should be nerfed simply because it owns their sorry @$$ whenever they drive out in the open. I've also heard that it should always take three people with AV to destroy a tank, regardless pf how many tanks and or enemy infantry are present

Ad hominem? Wow i'm surprised that the idiots of this forum even know what this mean. Anyways it is true. Not one thing I've said thus far is a lie. I like to support my arguments with facts and evidence, as opposed to doing what most tankers have done and make crap up and hoping that enough people will jump in and say "Oh yeah lol this is true I saw it myself".

I use the most aggressive tactics possible to win my arguments, but I base them all on truth fact and reasoning. If you don't use aggressive tactics, you will never win an argument, no matter how idiotic the opponent's arguments and/or rebuttals are.

And if you want a refresher on how to win an argument, then you should refer to Paul Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement

[quote=KenKaniff69]\
No, it shows that he's got a wad of BS up his @$$

He's clearly lying, and If I said "oh yeah proto av is so overpowered, that I even saw it take out a CRU in 3 hits, all you biased tanking dumbf*ucks would have said, "yeah Atiim that's right, in fact I also saw it happen myself" or some dumb **** like that.

And I currently forgot her name, but someone came and basically saved me the time and proved all your "calculations" incorrect. You've yet to challenge said logic, so I fully believe that even you tankers don't believe the BS that your shoveling in CCP's yard.

You guys are pathetic. Just stop.

"yeah Atiim that's right, in fact I also saw it happen myself" or some dumb **** like that.

You've yet to challenge said logic,

You guys are pathetic. Just stop.

Yes, yes your arguments are weak based on the fact that all you tend to insult others and sprout bullshit out of your mouth instead of giving facts, numbers, videos, and other types of evidence like many others have.

When you stop being pathetic and actually listen, consider, and compare these pieces of evidence and base a conclusion off of that, then people might start to actually take you seriously again.

Don't base your argument on hearsay and prejudice, it typically ends up embarrassing you.

Like I keep telling him, if he really was a tanker, he wouldn't be on a crusade against tanks.

ok, more of these showing up and still more bad math.

Videos of current gameplay, are not good arguements of how things will work in 1.7 because things are changing.

While I have not done the leg work on shield regen and how long it would take to come back from attack I did build this www.dust514stats.com/compare.cfm which will tell you how long it would take to kill a vehicle with x weapon or if it is even possible. it's still a work in progress, mostly because the coding for it is rather hard, and also because the numbers are in flux.

Ok fine go 30m away from a tank, and try soloing it while infantry is firing at you at the same time, and before you say "Oh you shouldn't be taking fire from infantry" BS note that I don't AV from the redline (swarms don't have the intelligence).

And yeah considering that that almost always happens, swarms do require skill, at least you can kill people with a FG, or PLC but I can't lock on to a scout with a SL and watch him run like crazy to cover.

And only tankers and LAV who are stupid enough to drive into crowds of infantry have to deal with AV grenades.

You say this as if tanking requires skill like a chess game, when I've managed to do perfectly fine with my cheap so-so 400k tank. All you have to do is shoot and then go into cover when you overheat and/or your modules die.

Thank you for having vastly over-inflated opinions of yourselves, next time you wanna moan about something, do what I did and skill into it. You are literally no better than logi hatters who assume that it is easy mode while never specing into them

Thank you for having vastly over-inflated opinions of yourself next time you wanna moan about something, actually use it against experienced players instead of players fresh out of the academy; actually prove that you use it and are not just bullshitting.You are literally no better than logi hatters who assume that it is easy mode while never specing into them

No I think it's perfectly acceptable for Proto to destroy militia and STD as long as we have access to Proto, It's just Arkena said it would be impossible to pop a militia tank with 2 proto swarms proficiency V so I was proving him wrong that's all.