1 million isk says nobody in this thread will capitulate gracefully.

You've proven yourself to be so stupid I couldn't tell whether or not you were joking.

No, you've proven that you have an IQ <30

*ahem* this is part of your contract (repeat after me):

"everything i've ever said on the subject of game balance, specifically balancing vehicles and AV is wrong, its so wrong that i feel sick that i even thought of them, and the fact that i spoke them makes me want to leap in front of a moving lav. i hereby retract all of my comments and enter an agreement with the dust community that it will not troll you overly and whack you with the logic bat too often on the basis that i will now refrain from posting in any vehicle or AV thread, this agreement is binding and can and will be edited in the future if the community deems it necessary."

thanks ghbgh <---- quite sure I made a mistake there

*ahem* this is part of your contract (repeat after me):

"everything i've ever said on the subject of game balance, specifically balancing vehicles and AV is wrong, its so wrong that i feel sick that i even thought of them, and the fact that i spoke them makes me want to leap in front of a moving lav. i hereby retract all of my comments and enter an agreement with the dust community that it will not troll you overly and whack you with the logic bat too often on the basis that i will now refrain from posting in any vehicle or AV thread, this agreement is binding and can and will be edited in the future if the community deems it necessary."

thanks ghbgh <---- quite sure I made a mistake there

Reinforcements have arrived.

If he had 2k armor, then he was practically dead to begin with

If he had 4k, then you would not have killed him with MLT swarms, and yeah why did he sit there and give you time to reload again? Please answer this question in your post, as i want to make sure you know what your talking about

The fact that the tank had 4k armor and still died shows how AV is clearly overplaying it's role. The efficiency rating I am using confirm this. Under normal efficiency ratings you would not be able to do this.

Except even a Soma has more HP than that.
After the rebalance, it has 4000 armour HP unfitted, in addition to the 1200 shields which will soak up lots of explosive damage.

1320*0.80 = 1056 - so the shields can soak up an entire volley on their own, with 144 shield HP remaining.
144/0.80 = 180, and so it will soak up 180 damage out of the next volley which starts to go into armour, leaving 1140 raw damage remaining.

Now, I am quite certain that the excessively high explosive damage doesn't exist and the actual modifier is 20% more damage, but I will do these numbers assuming the +35% modifier.

1140*1.35 = 1539 armour damage, leaving 2461 armour HP remaining on the Soma.
The next volley does full damage as there are no shields to soak up the damage.
1320*1.35 = 1782 armour damage, leaving 679 armour HP remaining on the Soma.

The next volley will obviously kill it.
Thus, it takes four vollies of a current militia swarm launcher to kill a completely unfitted Soma.

However, the swarm launcher damage has been reduced significantly, from 330 to 220 per rocket.
Again assuming that the explosive modifier is higher than it actually is, let's calculate how long it will take for an MLT swarm launcher to kill a Soma sitting still.

220*4 = 880
880*0.80 = 704, 1200-704 = 496 shield HP remaining.
496/0.80 = 620, taking 620 raw damage out of the next volley, leaving 260 raw damage acting on the armour.
260*1.35 = 351 armour damage, leaving 3649 armour HP remaining.

The next volley has no shields to soak up any damage.
880*1.35% = 1188 armour damage, leaving 2461 armour HP remaining.

Naturally, the next vollies will still do the same damage.
The next volley will do another 1188 damage, leaving 1273 armour HP remaining.
The volley after that will do another 1188 damage, leaving just 85 armour HP remaining.
The volley after that is the final volley and will kill the tank.

That's a total of 5 vollies from a militia swarm launcher to take out a militia tank, assuming the excessively high explosive modifier which I do not believe actually exists.
Notably, you also have to reload twice during that process, increasing the time to kill the tank significantly.

That's not two vollies to kill a tank. It's likely to be even more than 5 given that the explosive damage modifier isn't 135% and also that the shields of the tank will recharge slightly whilst the swarm launcher is reloading.

What is your stance on the survivability of HAVs after the changes?

If he had 2k armor, then he was practically dead to begin with

If he had 4k, then you would not have killed him with MLT swarms, and yeah why did he sit there and give you time to reload again? Please answer this question in your post, as i want to make sure you know what your talking about

So Militia swarms do 1320 damage plus the 63% bonus I get from the weak spot and the armor bonus if I'm informed correctly minus the 49% resist I believe he had gives me a 12% bonus so about 1,478 damage multiplied by 3 is 4,434 damage so tell me why I couldn't have called the tank if it had 4k armor.

In 1.8 GJ CCP
First off, terrain damage removes any and all shields from armor tanks. Simply driving at full speed over any ground that isn't paved will put you into your armor with ease. If you ran tanks you would realize this. This leaves pure armor with no buffer-and no ret@rd atiim i can't add shield because 1. I am an armor tank 2. the PG nerf leaves me no room to add any shields 3. shield regen is roughly 10 on an armor tank meaning it would take forever to regen to full. Tanks will be slower and in addition have no cover due to the style of the new sockets that CCP is moving towards. Why did you compare the miltia version? Why not the proto version which drops 2385 damage to armor. Proto swarms are seen in every single game and often in numbers. When modules go into cooldown you will have taken enough terrain damage to lose all you shields and what AV you can kill off might leave you with around 5/6 armor. This then means that the madrugar has around 3400 armor left. Two volleys and it's done. Simple as that. Even with reps, they are so slow that two volleys down it. I wish AV engaged me with full health in game, but thanks to the terrain i never have shields and I am always into my armor.

As to why I didn't respond sooner, I was to busy playing this game with my corpmates. Do you even play akena? I have never seen you and a lot of what I said would make sense to you if you did. People who come on here and argue and don't even play (IWS, Nova Knife, etc) really should be on here.

WHOA THERE BENNY BOY!!! That math went right over Atiim's head. Let him contact Arkena Wyrkomi and have her do the math for him and attempt to prove how a class that has been nerfed by 33% ONCE cant kill a role that has been nerfed now 4 or 5 times.

WHOA THERE BENNY BOY!!! That math went right over Atiim's head. Let him contact Arkena Wyrkomi and have her do the math for him and attempt to prove how a class that has been nerfed by 33% ONCE cant kill a role that has been nerfed now 4 or 5 times.

I compared the militia swarms because I was questioning your assertion that two vollies from a militia swarm would kill a militia tank.

If you manage to wreck 1200 shields, you are a bad driver.
I do not tank as a main occupation, but I have never managed to deplete all of my shields by driving around.

You're not looking at the tanks after the changes, are you? That would be where you are going wrong. A wiyrkomi swarm launcher with damage mods and proficiency V cannot even two shot one of the unfitted militia tanks, even with the shields fully depleted from your apparently awful driving. 2385 damage is a mythical statistic unless you're looking at the current state of things, in which case you really should read up on the changes before trying to argue about balancing them.

As I go through your post, I see more and more numbers from the current balance. Why bother arguing with them? They're being changed. The numbers are being provided. Look at them.

The fact that you haven't seen me play doesn't mean I don't play, and it doesn't make the statistics I showed you any less valid.

What swarms don't understand is while we wait for a fix in tanks AV gets buffed so it's a double effect not only do we get nerfs they get buffs. Imagine if we got a 10% hp buff and swarm changes were deployed now that's the equivalent except much lighter for AV.

I compared the militia swarms because I was questioning your assertion that two vollies from a militia swarm would kill a militia tank.

If you manage to wreck 1200 shields, you are a bad driver.
I do not tank as a main occupation, but I have never managed to deplete all of my shields by driving around.

You're not looking at the tanks after the changes, are you? That would be where you are going wrong. A wiyrkomi swarm launcher with damage mods and proficiency V cannot even two shot one of the unfitted militia tanks, even with the shields fully depleted from your apparently awful driving. 2385 damage is a mythical statistic unless you're looking at the current state of things, in which case you really should read up on the changes before trying to argue about balancing them.

As I go through your post, I see more and more numbers from the current balance. Why bother arguing with them? They're being changed. The numbers are being provided. Look at them.

The fact that you haven't seen me play doesn't mean I don't play, and it doesn't make the statistics I showed you any less valid.

I compared the militia swarms because I was questioning your assertion that two vollies from a militia swarm would kill a militia tank.

If you manage to wreck 1200 shields, you are a bad driver.
I do not tank as a main occupation, but I have never managed to deplete all of my shields by driving around.

You're not looking at the tanks after the changes, are you? That would be where you are going wrong. A wiyrkomi swarm launcher with damage mods and proficiency V cannot even two shot one of the unfitted militia tanks, even with the shields fully depleted from your apparently awful driving. 2385 damage is a mythical statistic unless you're looking at the current state of things, in which case you really should read up on the changes before trying to argue about balancing them.

As I go through your post, I see more and more numbers from the current balance. Why bother arguing with them? They're being changed. The numbers are being provided. Look at them.

The fact that you haven't seen me play doesn't mean I don't play, and it doesn't make the statistics I showed you any less valid.

Takahiros 'partner' will be here shortly to reply 10 times to each individual comment from anyone who isn't supporting the HAV campaign ... you wait n see lol ...

So post patch proto swarms will do 1,320 plus a bonus 50% (armor bonus plus proficiency) gives you 1,980 just shy of the 2,000 needed to pop the tank now let's you actually have what's it called I forget the name oh yea skills and you get the weak point bonus you exceed the 2,000 threshold by far and now lets throw in some damage mods can you possibly refute that the proto swarm won't pop the tank.

Are you people still whining about the effect a proto weapon has on militia and standard equipment ... go take a duvolle up against a militia or standard dropsuit n see what happens !

Are you people still whining about the effect a proto weapon has on militia and standard equipment ... go take a duvolle up against a militia or standard dropsuit n see what happens !

No I think it's perfectly acceptable for Proto to destroy militia and STD as long as we have access to Proto, It's just Arkena said it would be impossible to pop a militia tank with 2 proto swarms proficiency V so I was proving him wrong that's all.

I can't be arsed reading back ... but I think Arkena was arguing against Ken who said a militia swarm could down a militia HAV in 2 volleys.

Edit ... also the noobs I meet in pub matches don't have access to proto suits either ! ... Don't argue about proto swarms damaging current HAVs ... campaign for a speedy introduction of proto vehicles !

I can't be arsed reading back ... but I think Arkena was arguing against Ken who said a militia swarm could down a militia HAV in 2 volleys.

Edit ... also the noobs I meet in pub matches don't have access to proto suits either ! ... Don't argue about proto swarms damaging current HAVs ... campaign for a speedy introduction of proto vehicles !

Edit 2 : Bed time anyhow ... have fun o7

tis funny you say this considering every match there is an IA forge or Wyrkomi swarm launcher no matter the game mode or what the BS matchmaking system decides it wants to do.