Lai Dai deals somewhere around 1700 damage

At least try using them

far too easy

Once again, I already knew about hardners, I just didn't use them (or nitrous

And if your using that logic, the why not HTFU about AV as you sure as heck don't use them or have any idea of what your talking about when it comes to AV

And if you look at the marketplace stats, they do around 1720 damage.

is that 4k dmg rating for lai dai's a rear end critical hit? must be straight to the hull baby

Wait correct me if im wrong but the best way to use the swarm launcher now is to do taliban style ambushes ?

If you're going to try and do an infodump, you should present your math and assumptions clearly and step by step, along with sources in the case of hidden or obscure game mechanics/glitches/:ccp: idiocy. You should present your information in a non-condescending manner and let the numbers speak for themselves. You shouldn't insist on anecdotal evidence being important, you should use proper spelling and grammar, and most importantly:

You shouldn't be posting it exclusively on General Discussions.

i never really understood why ccp made the forge guns really strong agianst armor...Its based on electric energy, which should do more damage on shileds than armor yet that not true..... Oh well.
Btw really good post, i enjoyed reading it :)

You are wrong.
Either you are calculating resistances incorrectly or you are simply mistaken.

Empirical evidence to the contrary.
Demonstrating a packed AV grenade vs vehicle armour.

Base packed AV grenade damage - 1312.50 HP.

6488 armour HP -> 4977 armour HP.
Total damage 1511. This is in line with the explosive damage modifier being 120% - Here the modifier is approximately the same.

I will happily test again if you feel this was unfair.

Just one thing, my swarms do 120% damage vs armor not 135%. Just tested it too.

No I know it's right because I just went and saw the efficiency vs armor (120% vs armor and 80% vs shields) in game and my main weapon is the swarms (Been using them since I started playing dust). If you want I can do further tests to prove you wrong.

Swarms are going to **** with a 175 meter lock-on and damage nerf? Outside of dropships and LAVs who will lol at them now, swarms will require you to either be in CQC with cover to use effectively, or out in the open without cover(lol). At either case, you might as well be using something else. Like REs or Assault Forge Guns, which everyone with a brain will be using.

Swarms are useless now. I'd sooner use a Freedom MD prof 5 with 3 damage mods over it. At least I can kill Infantry with it.

Please suggest a situation in which an AV grenade will do more than the damage it should do.
Also, I would greatly appreciate something more than anecdotal evidence.

I will quite happily test this for you. If you can provide a specific situation in which an AV grenade will do more damage than it should I will gladly test it and record.

I think CCP is more of a credible source then you ever will. Show me proof or else I will never believe you.

Actually fk it I'll do another test to prove you wrong with proof this time.

Also I can believe rails being the top seller thanks to redline tanks.

No because that optimal will rarely happen at all. In the open, you'll die long before you get the 3 shots in, in CQC with cover you won't shoot those shots nearly as fast, so tank has a good chance of just rolling out. Plus a good tanker almost always have Infantry support near, you don't want to be in CQC with Swarms at all. If it's a shield tanker, congrats, your swarms are laughed at.

Ok now your just pulling crap outta @$$

330*4=1320HP

And MLT swarms have terrible DPS because of the lock time nerf, and the fact that they only have two in a clip means that if you are good, they will do a maximum of 2640HP of damage, but that wouldn't scratch a maddy's armor and Gunnlogi? Forget it.

MLT owns nothing, not even MLT tanks

If he had 2k armor, then he was practically dead to begin with

If he had 4k, then you would not have killed him with MLT swarms, and yeah why did he sit there and give you time to reload again? Please answer this question in your post, as i want to make sure you know what your talking about

Except even a Soma has more HP than that.
After the rebalance, it has 4000 armour HP unfitted, in addition to the 1200 shields which will soak up lots of explosive damage.

1320*0.80 = 1056 - so the shields can soak up an entire volley on their own, with 144 shield HP remaining.
144/0.80 = 180, and so it will soak up 180 damage out of the next volley which starts to go into armour, leaving 1140 raw damage remaining.

Now, I am quite certain that the excessively high explosive damage doesn't exist and the actual modifier is 20% more damage, but I will do these numbers assuming the +35% modifier.

1140*1.35 = 1539 armour damage, leaving 2461 armour HP remaining on the Soma.
The next volley does full damage as there are no shields to soak up the damage.
1320*1.35 = 1782 armour damage, leaving 679 armour HP remaining on the Soma.

The next volley will obviously kill it.
Thus, it takes four vollies of a current militia swarm launcher to kill a completely unfitted Soma.

However, the swarm launcher damage has been reduced significantly, from 330 to 220 per rocket.
Again assuming that the explosive modifier is higher than it actually is, let's calculate how long it will take for an MLT swarm launcher to kill a Soma sitting still.

220*4 = 880
880*0.80 = 704, 1200-704 = 496 shield HP remaining.
496/0.80 = 620, taking 620 raw damage out of the next volley, leaving 260 raw damage acting on the armour.
260*1.35 = 351 armour damage, leaving 3649 armour HP remaining.

The next volley has no shields to soak up any damage.
880*1.35% = 1188 armour damage, leaving 2461 armour HP remaining.

Naturally, the next vollies will still do the same damage.
The next volley will do another 1188 damage, leaving 1273 armour HP remaining.
The volley after that will do another 1188 damage, leaving just 85 armour HP remaining.
The volley after that is the final volley and will kill the tank.

That's a total of 5 vollies from a militia swarm launcher to take out a militia tank, assuming the excessively high explosive modifier which I do not believe actually exists.
Notably, you also have to reload twice during that process, increasing the time to kill the tank significantly.

That's not two vollies to kill a tank. It's likely to be even more than 5 given that the explosive damage modifier isn't 135% and also that the shields of the tank will recharge slightly whilst the swarm launcher is reloading.

What is your stance on the survivability of HAVs after the changes?

So Militia swarms do 1320 damage plus the 63% bonus I get from the weak spot and the armor bonus if I'm informed correctly minus the 49% resist I believe he had gives me a 12% bonus so about 1,478 damage multiplied by 3 is 4,434 damage so tell me why I couldn't have called the tank if it had 4k armor.

I compared the militia swarms because I was questioning your assertion that two vollies from a militia swarm would kill a militia tank.

If you manage to wreck 1200 shields, you are a bad driver.
I do not tank as a main occupation, but I have never managed to deplete all of my shields by driving around.

You're not looking at the tanks after the changes, are you? That would be where you are going wrong. A wiyrkomi swarm launcher with damage mods and proficiency V cannot even two shot one of the unfitted militia tanks, even with the shields fully depleted from your apparently awful driving. 2385 damage is a mythical statistic unless you're looking at the current state of things, in which case you really should read up on the changes before trying to argue about balancing them.

As I go through your post, I see more and more numbers from the current balance. Why bother arguing with them? They're being changed. The numbers are being provided. Look at them.

The fact that you haven't seen me play doesn't mean I don't play, and it doesn't make the statistics I showed you any less valid.

What swarms don't understand is while we wait for a fix in tanks AV gets buffed so it's a double effect not only do we get nerfs they get buffs. Imagine if we got a 10% hp buff and swarm changes were deployed now that's the equivalent except much lighter for AV.

Are you people still whining about the effect a proto weapon has on militia and standard equipment ... go take a duvolle up against a militia or standard dropsuit n see what happens !

I can't be arsed reading back ... but I think Arkena was arguing against Ken who said a militia swarm could down a militia HAV in 2 volleys.

Edit ... also the noobs I meet in pub matches don't have access to proto suits either ! ... Don't argue about proto swarms damaging current HAVs ... campaign for a speedy introduction of proto vehicles !

I want a Proto nerf / removal because it's quicker then the introduction of pro vehicles, once pro vehicles come in you can have your once OP swarms back.

That would be because in every match there is at least one HAV that would just sit there spamming infinate ammo at spawn points ... infantry have had to adapt or die ... literally !

Yeah cos people are gonna go for the option of leaving that threat alive that's been raping them for insta-deaths n just run to the other side of the map to drop an uplink cos people are tolerant like that ... NO they're gonna spend some points in swarms or grenades n get some vengeance.

I don't think this is right either from experience but I'm willing to listen to reason if you have some explanation for the very common scenario I'll share with you. I try to take out tanks with PLC and Lai Dai grenades in the following obvious way...

1. PLC the shields away
2. Toss the Lai Dais
3. Try to hit it with the PLC if it survives

I probably have about a 50% success rate after step 3. If your 3,000 damage figure is correct than they would have to have over 9,000 armor. This is rarely the case as I have squad mates tell me how much armor it has at full before I chase after it so that I can act accordingly. Typically I hear numbers between 5,000-7,000 armor. Shields are more than destroyed by my proto to PLC so I can only assume that all 9,000 damage goes into the tanks armor. I understand that tanks have resistance and reps but for how fast this all happens I don't see how they can survive roughly 11,000 damage in about 4 seconds when caught off guard followed by another PLC shot half of the time.

If I am just missing some huge mechanic to tanking or messing up on math please let me know. But if you're claiming CCP has lied about the damage done by AV nades then I'd be interested in hearing your explanation for these encounters and how the grenades still can't destroy weakened tanks.

No, it shows that he's got a wad of BS up his @$$

He's clearly lying, and If I said "oh yeah proto av is so overpowered, that I even saw it take out a CRU in 3 hits, all you biased tanking dumbf*ucks would have said, "yeah Atiim that's right, in fact I also saw it happen myself" or some dumb **** like that.

And I currently forgot her name, but someone came and basically saved me the time and proved all your "calculations" incorrect. You've yet to challenge said logic, so I fully believe that even you tankers don't believe the BS that your shoveling in CCP's yard.

You guys are pathetic. Just stop.

Well 4 Lai Dai at 1,720 would be 6,880 base and so 9,180 with the 1.35 armo efficiency. This means that your resistance/reps would have to stop about 3,480 damage in the time it took the 4 Lai Dai to hit you or you're toast. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you're implying that the main issue is the weak spot multiplier being glitched to all parts of the tank. If this were the case then the 4 Lai Dai would do 12,539 damage. But you survived the first 3 Lai Dai which would do 9,401 with the glitch which bumps the amount of damage you'd have compensate for through resistance/reps up to 3,700 in the time it takes to throw 3 Lai Dai. Now 3,700 is the minimum damage needed to "avoid" if you assume that the tank survives at 1hp (in reality it could be surviving at higher hp).

Are you modules/skills high enough to pull off that kind of survivability? It seems like a tall order but to support this glitch theory I think you'd need to be able to pull that off for the numbers to work.

Again, I'm not calling you out or anything. Just trying to reconcile my skepticism using your experience as a tanker and my experience using AV. It's rare I actually find someone to have a real discussion with about this