DUST Search - The Math of AV and Tanks Post 1.7

KenKaniff69 wrote:

Toby Flenderson wrote:

KenKaniff69 wrote:

I have had several encounters with resistance running along with reps only to have 4 lai dai's kill me from behind. I was a 5700 armor. AV weapons tend to act very inconsistent compare to prior builds. I have seen lai dai's one shot soma's on more occasions than I have seen them do 1k damage or less. Swarms are the same way. There are times where a packed AV grenade does 1800 damage to my tank, even though it claims to only do 1300. Once again, going of what i have noticed as the person who has gone through half a million isk in their mercenary experience and seen it all.

Well 4 Lai Dai at 1,720 would be 6,880 base and so 9,180 with the 1.35 armo efficiency. This means that your resistance/reps would have to stop about 3,480 damage in the time it took the 4 Lai Dai to hit you or you're toast. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you're implying that the main issue is the weak spot multiplier being glitched to all parts of the tank. If this were the case then the 4 Lai Dai would do 12,539 damage. But you survived the first 3 Lai Dai which would do 9,401 with the glitch which bumps the amount of damage you'd have compensate for through resistance/reps up to 3,700 in the time it takes to throw 3 Lai Dai. Now 3,700 is the minimum damage needed to "avoid" if you assume that the tank survives at 1hp (in reality it could be surviving at higher hp).

Are you modules/skills high enough to pull off that kind of survivability? It seems like a tall order but to support this glitch theory I think you'd need to be able to pull that off for the numbers to work.

Again, I'm not calling you out or anything. Just trying to reconcile my skepticism using your experience as a tanker and my experience using AV. It's rare I actually find someone to have a real discussion with about this Big smile

ty for being rational. It seems that way more times than not as the entire tank is a weak spot. AV grenades seem to range so wide in their damage outputs and there has to be something beyond the weak spot, efficiency, and resistances. Perhaps there is a code glitch or something along those lines. CCP would be the only one who can answer that question and they seem to to take very little on player feedback in regards to vehicles and AV.


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Toby Flenderson research lab 100	Posted - 2013.10.30 00:58:00 - [1] - Quote KenKaniff69 wrote: Atiim wrote: KenKaniff69 wrote: Atiim wrote: Lai Dai deals somewhere around 1700 damage At least try using them Once again read the post Mr. I have no idea about resist. The numbers don't add up and real word evidence suggests else wise. Go away troll. Your ideas are not valid on anything related with vehicles. You have no idea about anything I just posted. Once again, I already knew about hardners, I just didn't use them (or nitrous And if your using that logic, the why not HTFU about AV as you sure as heck don't use them or have any idea of what your talking about when it comes to AV And if you look at the marketplace stats, they do around 1720 damage. Right from my post 1720 dmg 1.35 armor efficiency1.3 weak spot glitch=3018.6 dmg. The weak spot seams to be all over the tank, which then makes all of CCP's AV grenade numbers off by a factor between 1.5 or 2. Prove my math wrong please. I don't think this is right either from experience but I'm willing to listen to reason if you have some explanation for the very common scenario I'll share with you. I try to take out tanks with PLC and Lai Dai grenades in the following obvious way... 1. PLC the shields away 2. Toss the Lai Dais 3. Try to hit it with the PLC if it survives I probably have about a 50% success rate after step 3. If your 3,000 damage figure is correct than they would have to have over 9,000 armor. This is rarely the case as I have squad mates tell me how much armor it has at full before I chase after it so that I can act accordingly. Typically I hear numbers between 5,000-7,000 armor. Shields are more than destroyed by my proto to PLC so I can only assume that all 9,000 damage goes into the tanks armor. I understand that tanks have resistance and reps but for how fast this all happens I don't see how they can survive roughly 11,000 damage in about 4 seconds when caught off guard followed by another PLC shot half of the time. If I am just missing some huge mechanic to tanking or messing up on math please let me know. But if you're claiming CCP has lied about the damage done by AV nades then I'd be interested in hearing your explanation for these encounters and how the grenades still can't destroy weakened tanks.
Toby Flenderson research lab 100	Posted - 2013.10.30 02:34:00 - [2] - Quote KenKaniff69 wrote: I have had several encounters with resistance running along with reps only to have 4 lai dai's kill me from behind. I was a 5700 armor. AV weapons tend to act very inconsistent compare to prior builds. I have seen lai dai's one shot soma's on more occasions than I have seen them do 1k damage or less. Swarms are the same way. There are times where a packed AV grenade does 1800 damage to my tank, even though it claims to only do 1300. Once again, going of what i have noticed as the person who has gone through half a million isk in their mercenary experience and seen it all. Well 4 Lai Dai at 1,720 would be 6,880 base and so 9,180 with the 1.35 armo efficiency. This means that your resistance/reps would have to stop about 3,480 damage in the time it took the 4 Lai Dai to hit you or you're toast. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you're implying that the main issue is the weak spot multiplier being glitched to all parts of the tank. If this were the case then the 4 Lai Dai would do 12,539 damage. But you survived the first 3 Lai Dai which would do 9,401 with the glitch which bumps the amount of damage you'd have compensate for through resistance/reps up to 3,700 in the time it takes to throw 3 Lai Dai. Now 3,700 is the minimum damage needed to "avoid" if you assume that the tank survives at 1hp (in reality it could be surviving at higher hp). Are you modules/skills high enough to pull off that kind of survivability? It seems like a tall order but to support this glitch theory I think you'd need to be able to pull that off for the numbers to work. Again, I'm not calling you out or anything. Just trying to reconcile my skepticism using your experience as a tanker and my experience using AV. It's rare I actually find someone to have a real discussion with about this
Toby Flenderson research lab 100	Posted - 2013.10.30 11:43:00 - [3] - Quote KenKaniff69 wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: KenKaniff69 wrote: I have had several encounters with resistance running along with reps only to have 4 lai dai's kill me from behind. I was a 5700 armor. AV weapons tend to act very inconsistent compare to prior builds. I have seen lai dai's one shot soma's on more occasions than I have seen them do 1k damage or less. Swarms are the same way. There are times where a packed AV grenade does 1800 damage to my tank, even though it claims to only do 1300. Once again, going of what i have noticed as the person who has gone through half a million isk in their mercenary experience and seen it all. Well 4 Lai Dai at 1,720 would be 6,880 base and so 9,180 with the 1.35 armo efficiency. This means that your resistance/reps would have to stop about 3,480 damage in the time it took the 4 Lai Dai to hit you or you're toast. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you're implying that the main issue is the weak spot multiplier being glitched to all parts of the tank. If this were the case then the 4 Lai Dai would do 12,539 damage. But you survived the first 3 Lai Dai which would do 9,401 with the glitch which bumps the amount of damage you'd have compensate for through resistance/reps up to 3,700 in the time it takes to throw 3 Lai Dai. Now 3,700 is the minimum damage needed to "avoid" if you assume that the tank survives at 1hp (in reality it could be surviving at higher hp). Are you modules/skills high enough to pull off that kind of survivability? It seems like a tall order but to support this glitch theory I think you'd need to be able to pull that off for the numbers to work. Again, I'm not calling you out or anything. Just trying to reconcile my skepticism using your experience as a tanker and my experience using AV. It's rare I actually find someone to have a real discussion with about this ty for being rational. It seems that way more times than not as the entire tank is a weak spot. AV grenades seem to range so wide in their damage outputs and there has to be something beyond the weak spot, efficiency, and resistances. Perhaps there is a code glitch or something along those lines. CCP would be the only one who can answer that question and they seem to to take very little on player feedback in regards to vehicles and AV. Fair enough. I admit that I have thought that as well but just threw it up to ranges in tank armor. Then again, I'm not inside the tank to see the results so I will take your word for it. Thanks for helping me understand the other side of the argument. In general how do you feel about the vehicle changes? I've seen nerfs to AV and changes to vehicles and I know it's premature to say one will be superior over the other but it just looks like AV is reduced greatly. Are the vehicle changes a nerf as well in your opinion?
Toby Flenderson research lab 100	Posted - 2013.10.30 12:09:00 - [4] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: So post patch proto swarms will do 1,320 plus a bonus 50% (armor bonus plus proficiency) gives you 1,980 just shy of the 2,000 needed to pop the tank now let's you actually have what's it called I forget the name oh yea skills and you get the weak point bonus you exceed the 2,000 threshold by far and now lets throw in some damage mods can you possibly refute that the proto swarm won't pop the tank. Are you people still whining about the effect a proto weapon has on militia and standard equipment ... go take a duvolle up against a militia or standard dropsuit n see what happens ! No I think it's perfectly acceptable for Proto to destroy militia and STD as long as we have access to Proto, It's just Arkena said it would be impossible to pop a militia tank with 2 proto swarms proficiency V so I was proving him wrong that's all. Can you read? I have one problem with Ben's argument and that is that he's implying that hitting the weak spot of a tank is based on skill. Say that a tank is 50+m away from you and you but facing you (or at the very least its weak spot is not exposed). I think it's fair to say that this is a very common scenario and not some constructed exception to the rule. Now you have two options regarding how to engage the tank... 1. Lock on and fire form a distance. 2. Run straight at the tank and then walk around to the back before locking on and firing. 3. Run in some strategic pattern that repositions you behind the tank at a distance before engaging. Option 1 is clearly the best choice as it leaves you some distance between you and the tank and is safer. It gives you a much greater chance to successfully fire off the 3 volleys. I argue that a skilled SL user would utilize this tactic and have a much higher success rate than either 2 or 3. Option 2 is a death trap. Good luck charging straight at a tank and then having enough survival time to get 3 volleys off while you stand right behind it. I would put more money on infantry killing you if you made it within 5m of the tank before you even get one volley off. This tactic however gives your swarms a higher chance of hitting the weak spot in the back. Note that at even 50 meters it will take you 5-10 seconds to sprint this distance depending on the suit you have. Option 3 is safer than option 2 with the same sort of advantage. You get a better chance to hit the weak spot as the missiles are able to straighten out before hitting the tank. You're also safer but it takes a much longer time to circle around a tank. Imagine if it were a circular path. That's more than 50(pi) > 150m thus 15-30 seconds plus time for your stamina to recharge. This also assumes the tank does not change it's position in 15-30 seconds. Compare the time and luck involved with options 2 and 3. These are very poor approaches to engaging a tank yet they are the only way you can control the angle at which the missiles hit the tank. To claim that skill is involved in any way is just ridiculous when the only two ways to demonstrate this "skill" require 2-3 times as much time to perform a full 3-volley swarm attack. Obviously if the tank is further than 50 meters then this is just too stupid to even talk about. TL;DR: There is no reasonable way to "aim for the weak spot" and implying that people who do not try do not have skill is dumb.
Toby Flenderson research lab 100	Posted - 2013.10.30 19:34:00 - [5] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: So i pretty much skipped the past 6 pages because it goes somehting like this Vehicle pilots use logic and AV are crying because they cannot solo vehicles anymore with an I WIN button Big problem is these AV scrubs are basing everything off of scrubby pub matches, PC is where it should be balanced, I play PC everyday, go up against proto AV everything too in my basic tank with basic mods and its defences are simply not enough, not against proto AV because i dont have a proto tank and mods I can play pubs and maybe stomp and go 40-0 because no AV is about which isnt my problem its the enemys problem But with pubs you can play solo and come up against 2 6man squads, not your fault its lack of match making Balancing for pubs is just a bad idea since pubs is unbalanced with just 1 6man squad against randoms anyways, PC is coordinated teamwork from both sides to get an objective and win the match The vehicles and AV rebalancing may actually give vehicles a role in PC and a chance to be a game changer maybe but at least it maybe be able to hold its own and actually tank something But if it ruins pubs i couldnt care less because matchmaking is broke and i cant help it, but when team deploy comes in i will be in FW earning LP This is only the 1st set of actual nerfs that AV has recieved in over 6months of consistant buffs and i expect alot will quit AV because teamwork is an alien concept to them but will still cry when a tank is on the field wrecking **** unopposed because the infantry let them One could just as easily have summarized it the other way. For example, "Vehicle users cry because they can be killed and AV users are the reasonable ones leveling out the playing field". As far as matchmaking being broken I also disagree. I've been in more close games since 1.5 than I have been in the last few months. Especially with squad finder. It's so easy to form squads now and if someone isn't joining them and then complaining that it's unfair to be put against them then I don't know what to say to them. I also disagree with using PC to balance things. If more people play in pub matches then basing everything off of PC wouldn't represent the conditions found in most games for most people. Also if teamwork is so important why not complain that more people don't support tanks? I've seen logi jeeps keep tanks alive and multiple gunners can help take out the infantry trying to spam AV nades. You're coming off as just another elitist "I'm right and you're wrong because I just am" type of voice right now. Maybe try and consider that more than just EoN plays this game.
Toby Flenderson research lab 100	Posted - 2013.10.31 18:07:00 - [6] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: One could just as easily have summarized it the other way. For example, "Vehicle users cry because they can be killed and AV users are the reasonable ones leveling out the playing field". As far as matchmaking being broken I also disagree. I've been in more close games since 1.5 than I have been in the last few months. Especially with squad finder. It's so easy to form squads now and if someone isn't joining them and then complaining that it's unfair to be put against them then I don't know what to say to them. I also disagree with using PC to balance things. If more people play in pub matches then basing everything off of PC wouldn't represent the conditions found in most games for most people. Also if teamwork is so important why not complain that more people don't support tanks? I've seen logi jeeps keep tanks alive and multiple gunners can help take out the infantry trying to spam AV nades. You're coming off as just another elitist "I'm right and you're wrong because I just am" type of voice right now. Maybe try and consider that more than just EoN plays this game. But if your tried to summarized it that way you would look like an idiot since AV has had the upper hand for the past 6+months against all vehicles Matchmaking is broken for me, always against groups while i have randoms, if im in a group half the time i end up against randoms PC is the end game currently for anyone competitive, pubs is scrubtastic at best and just an ISK making machine, if you played PC with a vehicle you would really see how useless you are most of the time espc with the tactics of putting FG on top of towers but overall PC is proto vs proto unless you run vehicles then its basic for you Because in PC games i generally am supported, in pubs randoms dont do ** so i rely on my squad if anything but even then hard to protect a tank when the pilot cannot see past 50m anyways and all AV can whack em from 400m out no problem But i am right tho, i mean i use all vehicles and i can use all AV aswell and if vehicle pilots can use teamwork with AV why cant AV use teamwork? Do vehicle pilots have to show AV how its done? You missed my point entirely. I'm implying that all that first statement said was "I'm on the vehicle side of the argument". You can't honestly say that in threads like these there is a completely one sided logical argument against AV users and the AV users do nothing but QQ about not being able to kill tanks. From what I've seen in these threads is that people generally just like to say what they think and then ignore counter arguments. Both sides. Your response to this is the same thing just reworded; "...and if you say the opposite then you're an idiot". We get it... you like tanks, but don't try to act like anyone that doesn't agree with you has no logical basis to do so. Matchmaking isn't broken for me or my fellow corp mates so I don't know what to say. That sucks for your luck? If leveling up skills isn't what makes this game addicting, I don't know what is. I'm mostly interested in leveling up my suit and improving my abilities rather than seeing who's Dust ** is bigger in PC matches against players that have months/year time under their belt and in their suit. I think that this is also true for most people in the game. PC is great for competitive players but it still caters to a smaller percent of the player base. It doesn't make sense to change things for fewer people if the majority does not agree. My theory for why vehicles aren't as effective in PC is because in PC people care about winning more. Tanks are huge threats in pub matches but not every blueberry cares enough about a victory to put millions into AV just to ensure that a tank doesn't steal it from them unopposed. In PC, people care a lot more about the victory rather than the SP they get regardless of the outcome so something like a tank must be dealt with immediately to remove the enemy advantage from the field. It should be hard to protect a tank if people are dedicated to destroying it. Heavies need a logi to back them up and keep them healed while they take hits. Assaults can't go forever without the occasional nanohive. Tanks need support too and I think the best type is a logi jeep or a sniper. People don't consider snipers to be support roles most of the time but when I sniped I just looked for SL and FG users while our tank handled the rest of the infantry. It should take more than one person in a tank to accomplish the destruction that a tank can currently cause, whether it be another gunner or infantry (snipers, assault, logi) to protect the tank. There are ways to help a tank, you just have to have dedicated players. Complaining about blueberries not helping you is not exactly exclusive to the tanker role. AV does require teamwork unless the single person is completely specced/dedicated/skilled in the role. This also applies to tanks. I think it's a little silly to suggest that the problem here is that the enemies don't need to be a team rather than say friendlies just need to support their team. The burden of your success should be on you and your team. Try getting a logi jeep or other tanks to back you up. Or snipers. Just try it.