excelently written

Only the data is false. There s no way th assault suits have room for weapons/ nades after that kind of fitting.

Then the fitting tool is broken. Keep in mind that every skill available in game for these examples is maxed and ensure maximum efficany to each dropsuit and module.

hes actually collected data.


if youw ant to prove it false you have to actually provide evidence rather then just exclaiming its wrong without actually doing any research on it.

have some respoect for the amount of work put into this is combat it with numbers rather then conjecture.

honestly this is poorly put together. and i'm a huge cal logi guy - using 3x shield ext 3x complex plates with an empty high on an assault ck.0 as the basis for any sort of argument, hypothetical, rhetorical, or explanatory is ******* **** poor dude. on the other hand... my 1100hp cal logi is QUITE viable, if not the fit I actually use.

Only the data is false. There s no way th assault suits have room for weapons/ nades after that kind of fitting.

Are you serious? I read the whole thing. He goes on to demonstrate that gimp-fitted assault suits can have similar HP as viable logi suits and draws some sort of meaningful conclusion from that? It's utter bullshit. I can't believe I'm having this conversation - I don't disagree with the conclusion... but I'm not going to agree with a guy who says the sky is blue because fairies painted it with a giant skittle paintbrush even if he is correct in saying the sky is blue.

"While the average Logistics dropsuit could squeeze out a slight advantage in HP, it is barely a level that could be defined as over powered in such a comparison. We are only talking about a couple of well placed AR rounds. The Assault suits are positioned to be just as effective in a 'slayer' role and should stand toe to toe without issue. In fact, most would probably value the slight advantage in speed over a few dozen hit points. Properly fitted Assault suits can also take better advantage of their racial bonuses in an offensive role."

... these conclusions are just... wrong. Logis have 5hp/s base rep which assaults have to compensate for to start with which makes buffer logi fits viable whereas full buffer assault fits are not unless you're standing on hives that a logi dropped or being repped by a logi.

The assault is more effective in a slayer role due to faster shield recharge (ck.0) and dps output (sidearm; ak.0 bonus). Not because they can stack armor plates. It's misleading and discredits the argument.

[Edit: But +1 for non-trolly legitimate well-intentioned effort. Sorry for being a ****, but ... yeah, I disagree with the post.]

lol you are correct. I'm not refuting the numbers that he ran; but I am saying they are meaningless.

"TL;DR - The claim of 'Assault Logi' being OP is a load of crap." <---- was the point of his post. MY point is that his HP experiment in the following post does nothing to support that argument.

i like your arguement, and now that youve presented it i have to agree.

while the builts presented on the HP front prove the overall HP capabilitys they arnt viable as actual builds.

and when push comes to shove that 5+ rep is what makes the brick tank viable, assaults cant achieve the same results in the brick tank department without it, and while they will have their shields back faster their over time their armor will be the death of them.

in addition to that the logi can gimp its HP to equip the rep hive, something the assault suit just cant do if it wants a reasonable buffer do to CPU and PG restrictions.

All you've done here is show that logis can be exactly the same as assaults. Actually a little better! The reason this is bad is that there really is no point in ever playing assault instead of assault logi.

This is now one of the biggest complaints against logis - due to the high cpu and pg as well as loads of slots, they can outperform other suits in their roles. A min logi can be faster than a scout. Most of these out tank a viable heavy and still have better speed! And as you have already proven, they even slightly beat assaults at slaying. When you can have all this from just one class, what's the point in having any others?

And I disagree with the contention that all "logis are OP" arguments are based on EHP disparities. They are based on the perception that logis win 1v1s against assaults. This involves several factors including not only EHP but resilience (built in reps, similar shield recharge to non-ck.0 assaults), equipment availability (scanners, compact hives to emergency triage, along with REs for example). Currently arguments are also skewing toward the fact that speed tanking was nerfed (strafe speed, aim assist) reducing the assault's net advantage from greater speed.

If you want to refute the "Assault Logi > All" myth as a non-dropsuit issue, you should say things like "Logically, a sidearm provides more damage options across different range spectrums and in prolonged combat" and "this is due to the net SP and game experience disparity between residual high-SP Cal Logi suits - since that is what a lot of experienced players specced into post-respec - and assault users who may be newer players."

have some respoect for the amount of work put into this is combat it with numbers rather then conjecture.

complete lack of armor reps is not 'durability' bro.

complete lack of armor reps is not 'durability' bro.

we all know Amarr proto logi is arguably the best suit in the game beside the mini proto logi

Again you talking about an extended exchange. Armor repair takes a pretty long time and is useless unless you are in cover.

Each side can list off all kinds of exceptions. Like for instance how more often is a Logistics player holding something other than a weapon in their hand as compared to an Assault? Don't you think the ability to react and quickly engage the enemy is not a deciding factor? I have been caught many a time with a Repair Tool or some other piece of equipment in my hands and ended up dead because of it.

Most Assaults don't really worry about that as often and are able to maintain better situational awareness. We could go round and round. Bottom line...Assaults are the best Assault platforms and 'Logi Assaults'....well, are a silly monkier someone came up with and are not relevant in the grand scheme of things.

I would not expect a Logi nerf anytime soon.

You're now talking about proper logis. The op is demonstrating logi assaults with no equipment doing the job of an assault better than an assault with the added bonus of built in repair when out of battle that HP impossible with the assault without losing over 100HP.

The fact is logis can do everything every other suit can do at least as well except carry heavy weapons.

more to the point CCP has admitted that the +5 rep skill is an issue and are working on new bonuses for the suits to encourage more logi'ish behavior.

so that +5 reps will be something of teh past at some point in the future

Right and when you are talking about thing like Shield and Armor repair we are not talking about winning a gunfight, you are talking about long-term survivability over the course of extended gameplay.

People can complain about inherent Armor repair all they want, but let me ask you...who is repairing the guy/gal repairing everyone else? Answer: usually no one. Inherent Armor repair doesn't help me win a gunfight...ever. But it does keep me in the mix and doing my job.

You're still talking about proper logis. If you're running the types of logis being discussed, you're not repping anyone. I don't know why you're getting so up in arms over this - you don't even sound like you play assault logi.

In all fairness the loudest complaints were when the Caldari Logi had the two percent buff skill and extra CPU.

Wait, what? Gallente Minmatar and Amarr logi have the SAME CPU, caldari has less.

TL;DR - The claim of 'Assault Logi' being OP is a load of crap.

Every so often, when there is less and less to complain about in the threads, I start to see "Nerf the Logi" posts. The reason for such outcry is generaly centered around the belief that Logistics suits provide significantly better resources for building an effective 'slayer' class then the Assualt suits do. Often the argument is about how Logistics can out-tank Assault to such a degree that no serious mercenary, hell-bent on death and destruction, would skill any other way. All others cry foul and claim as 'fact' that the Logistics suit is so overwhelming, it breaks the game from a balance perspective.

In fact, at one point we were hearing this argument so much that I, a dedicated 'true' Logistics player since closed beta, actually began to think there was some truth to the claim. So much so that whenever the debate arose, I would inject what I felt was the optimal solution of making equipment slot use in Logistics fittings mandatory in order for the suit to be valid. This idea was often met with a mix of approval and criticizm. Of course, I believed it was a better solution than lowering of CPU/PG or removal of module slots from any Logistics suit.

Finally, I decided to investigate the claim on my own. The biggest complaints spring from belief that Logi's are too tough to beat in a heads-up, one-on-one engagement. This of course is centered around the perceived ability to amass so much HP, through the use of excessive module slots,unfair amounts of CPU/PG and ignoring the Equipment slots, that no Assault suit can stand a chance. So my (unscientific) experiment will revolve around the build up of HP through Shield Extenders and Armor Modules, in the High/Low slots, for each race's Assault and Logistics class dropsuit. The only other slots that will be filled on any suit are the Light Weapon Slot, with a Duvolle Assult Rifle, and the grenade slot, with basic Locus Grenades. All of the fittings are based on a character who is skilled in level 5 across all skills and using Prototype level dropsuits. Since sidarms are not an option in 3 out of 4 Logistics suits, no suit is fitted with them. No equipment is fitted either.

Under these conditions, no fitting has an offensive advantage in either weapon or skills. The combination of modules for each fitting is such that it would give the player the maximum number of HP between shields and armor, without dropping the Movement Speed below 4.0 or the Sprint Speed below 6.0 respectively. These speeds seemed the minimum any player could go and still be effective in a 'slayer' type role.

Below are the specs using the Dust 514 Fitting Tool created by hydraSlav's and then my conclusion:


Assault Dropsuits (Bonus: +25% to dropsuit shield recharge rate at Level 5)

Amarr Assault ak.0 (Bonus: +25% to Laser heat buildup at Level 5)

H1: Complex Shield Extender
H2: Complex Shield Extender
H3: Complex Shield Extender
L1: Complex Armor Plate
L2: Complex Armor Plate
L3: Complex Armor Plate
Shield: 443 Armor: 670 Total: 1113
Remaining CPU/PG: 131/13

Caldari Assault ck.0 (Bonus: 10% efficacy to Shield Extenders at Level 5)

H1: Complex Shield Extender
H2: Complex Shield Extender
H3: Enhanced Shield Extender
H4: Basic Shield Extender
L1: Complex Armor Plate
L2: Complex Armor Plate
L3: Complex Armor Plate
Shield: 489 Armor: 595 Total: 1084
Remaining CPU/PG: 58/0

Gallente Assault gk.0 (Bonus: -25% to Hybrid Weapon CPU/PG at Level 5)

H1: Complex Shield Extender
H2: Complex Shield Extender
H3: *EMPTY
L1: Complex Armor Plate
L2: Complex Armor Plate
L3: Complex Armor Plate
L4: Complex Armor Plate
Shield: 295 Armor: 856 Total: 1151
Remaining CPU/PG: 109/2

Minmatar Assault mk.0 (Bonus: +25% to Sidearm clip size at Level 5)

H1: Complex Shield Extender
H2: Complex Shield Extender
H3: Complex Shield Extender
H4: Complex Shield Extender
H5: Enhanced Shield Extender
L1: Complex Armor Plate
L2: Complex Armor Plate
Shield: 514 Armor: 466 Total: 980
Remaining CPU/PG: 32/0

---

Logistics Dropsuits (Bonus: +5 HP/sec Armor Repair Rate at Level 5)

Amarr Logistics ak.0 (Bonus: +25% efficacy to Armor Repair Modules at Level 5)

H1: Complex Shield Extender
H2: Complex Shield Extender
H3: Complex Shield Extender
L1: Complex Armor Plate
L2: Complex Armor Plate
L3: Enhanced Armor Plate
L4: Complex Ferroscale Plate
Shield: 368 Armor: 725 Total: 1093
Remaining CPU/PG: 147/5

Caldari Logistics ck.0 (Bonus: +25% efficacy to Shield Regulator Modules at Level 5)

H1: Complex Shield Extender
H2: Complex Shield Extender
H3: Complex Shield Extender
H4: Complex Shield Extender
H5: Basic Shield Extender
L1: Complex Armor Plate
L2: Complex Armor Plate
L3: Complex Armor Plate
L4: Enhanced Armor Plate
Shield: 540 Armor: 679 Total: 1219
Remaining CPU/PG: 31/1

Gallente Logistics gk.0 (Bonus: -25% to Equipment CPU/PG at Level 5)

H1: Complex Shield Extender
H2: Complex Shield Extender
H3: Complex Shield Extender
L1: Complex Armor Plate
L2: Complex Armor Plate
L3: Complex Armor Plate
L4: Complex Armor Plate
L5: Enhanced Ferroscale Plate
Shield: 330 Armor: 874 Total: 1204
Remaining CPU/PG: 119/2

Minmater Logistics mk.0 (Bonus: +25% to Hacking Speed at Level 5)

H1: Complex Shield Extender
H2: Complex Shield Extender
H3: Complex Shield Extender
H4: Complex Shield Extender
L1: Complex Armor Plate
L2: Complex Armor Plate
L3: Complex Armor Plate
L4: Enhanced Ferroscale Plate
Shield: 403 Armor: 754 Total: 1157
Remaining CPU/PG: 102/4

*EMPTY slot due to lack of PG to fit any more Shield Extender Modules.

You are absolutely correct. I do not play 'Assault Logi'. Never have, never will. But when people get out the torches and pitchforks because they feel like a few players are abusing a fitting platform (and they are wrong) then that has the potential to impact me, a 'True" Logi, in a negative way.

I am not on here defending 'Assault Logi's'. I am here saying that it is a non-issue. In other words:

"These are not the droids, you're looking for. Move along...move along."

Hey dude, I respect you for playing proper logi - we need more of you in this game, so complaining about assault logis is actually intended to help you.

It is our complaints that have lead CCP to redesign medium suit bonuses in coming patches, so you'll get equipment related buffs. However, it is your slots and CPU that allow you to play any other role at least as well as they can - I get that you need the eHP to survive whilst logi-ing; I don't see why you can't be given that as base stats and less slots.

you all miss the point.

if you are going to use equipment then you are not going to match an assaults EHP + have no sidearn and you will be still slower and easier to hit. you can do your job as logi fine.

ofcourse if you dont use equipment you can match assaults EHP but you will be again still slower and easier to hit and have no sidearm.

you all miss the point.

if you are going to use equipment then you are not going to match an assaults EHP + have no sidearn and you will be still slower and easier to hit. you can do your job as logi fine.

ofcourse if you dont use equipment you can match assaults EHP but you will be again still slower and easier to hit and have no sidearm.

...

Why would you only use a standard sidearm on a Minmatar assault?

Upgrading it would mean a downgraded primary, and in my opinion primary > sidearm (even with a bigger clip size).

Has anyone considers that the current stigma surrounding the assault logi is due to the fact that a significant part of the top tier of the player base specced into things such as the cal logi and thus have that as their most effective suit? Back in chromosome those same players specced assault so there was never this idea that the logi could do just as well in the assault's role due to the fact that the best assault players were in the assault suit.

I have to agree with django though, the logi is a tad too versatile, that could probably be solved with some small fiddling in either the fitting stats or the skill bonuses.

Funny.

I like how he skewed the results with a ferroscale plate in the Gallente, Minmatar and Amarr suit.

Put a normal plate there, just like EVERYBODY else.

Ta-da!

Not only do you practically double the HP you get from the slot, you get more fitting resources to fit even more tank mods!

One of the stipulations I set was not letting the speed drop below a certain level. Sure you could tank yourself to a crawl be that isn't very realistic.

@ RydogV:

Your post has exellent points.


HOWEVER you are forgetting 1 little detail.




LOGISTICS ARMOR REPAIR BONUS.
The main reason Logis can HP tank as they can is they really DONT need to equip an armor repairer, unlike the ASsaults.

Sure a gallante Assault COULD come CLOSE the the Caldari Logi in HP, but that will never happen,because the Gallante Assault WILL SACRIFICE one of his complex plates,for a COmplex armor repairer...
How much does that add to? that would be if im not mistaken, OVER 210 Armor HP and still better shield recharge delay AND more equipments in trade of what? a sidearm? a little more stamina?

So, in order to do this REALISTIC, you need to fit in a Cx Armor repairer, to ALL the assaults.

---

2nd: All Logi Bonuses are better than their Assault counterparts,except for the AMARR one, and slightly the caldari one....









Good going, but Logis are still better.

Whispers*Checkmate, complex plates only have 150 something armor.

Otherwise, good point. No sane player would walk around with no armor rep.

So, in a practical brick tank scenario, logis have at least a 200 HP lead, being marginally slower, with no sidearm

But, with 3/4 equipment slots, and higher CPU and PG for fitting complex mods.

Speed is a big freaking deal, something that you'd know if you actually tried playing logi and compared it to other suits. The most important bit isn't the raw speed number, but the stamina. When a smart player sees himself about to get flanked he turns and sprints into a new fighting position. You can't do that if you're out of stamina, which logis often are because everyone moving faster than us means we need to sprint constantly to keep up with everyone else. This isn't about winning a marathon, it's about being able to react to the battlefield. A LAV doesn't help you on the second floor of a building.

Scout speed wasn't nerfed because of logis, it was nerfed because this game can't run at 60FPS and AR nerds can't aim for **** when it comes to moving targets- remember all the butthurt when the strafing cap was removed in 1.2? Stop blaming everything on logistics.

Lol, the telerporting scouts you had to aim about 2 metres ahead to hit lol

Scout speed wasn't nerfed because of logis, it was nerfed because this game can't run at 60FPS and AR nerds can't aim for **** when it comes to moving targets- remember all the butthurt when the strafing cap was removed in 1.2? Stop blaming everything on logistics.

My only full tanked logi fitting is my heavy hugger but I only break that out when I'm with a decent heavy, 801 armour, 217 shield ridiculously sloooooow, 3.96 movement and 5.65 sprint.

I think Mike Shanahan is the devil, but I'm not going to go around spouting it without citing evidence.

They're all still using Caldari logistics or Caldari assaul- OMG... NERF CALDARI!!!

And what weapon do you see them using? Let's call a spade a spade here because you know what I'm talking about. The damn thing is so powerful that you don't even need to use a sidearm since it's an instant "I win button." It's not the suit, but the weapon.

1000+ ehp means nothing if you cant make it around that corner just sayin.

LOGISTICS ARMOR REPAIR BONUS.
The main reason Logis can HP tank as they can is they really DONT need to equip an armor repairer, unlike the ASsaults.

Sure a gallante Assault COULD come CLOSE the the Caldari Logi in HP, but that will never happen,because the Gallante Assault WILL SACRIFICE one of his complex plates,for a COmplex armor repairer...
How much does that add to? that would be if im not mistaken, OVER 210 Armor HP and still better shield recharge delay AND more equipments in trade of what? a sidearm? a little more stamina?

So, in order to do this REALISTIC, you need to fit in a Cx Armor repairer, to ALL the assaults.

Well I believe originally I was responding to all the widespread allegations regarding straight up head to head encounters people were saying that they were having with Logis. The type of firefights where Shield and Armor regeneration are not going to really come into play because one of the party is going to be dead in a couple seconds.

For prolonged engagements when players are ducking in and out of cover, flanking, tossing grenades and such then things change drastically. I mean in such cases you have to start factoring in the Assaults ability to switch to a sidearm versus the Logistics player having to reload. Then that second weapons slot becomes VERY important.

Bottom line, the more variables that you factor into the gunfight, the less anyone is able to point to one particular aspect of a dropsuit and say "that makes it OP and one-sided" the whole argument becomes moot. As it is the argument is pretty circular and pointless in my opinion.

People want to blame the suit but it is really all about the player in it. There is always going to be someone on the battlefield more skilled or better fitted. Chances are you got beat because they are either better or they got the drop on you.

Bingo! Wait until 1.4 and see how all powerful these "evil logis" are when their god gun finally gets nerfed. Calling it now.

ok.
Chances.

What are the odds of finding an 1200 Cal Logi and what are the chances of finding a 1150 Gal assault in a game?
Cal Logi have pretty good odds dont you think?

This is because Cal Logi 1200EHP is a REALISTIC fitting. Your Gal Assault ISNT.
There by is NOT a context but a mere form of reality.

1200 EHP Cal Logi, is usable and viable.
1150 GAL is not.

Best you'll get is 950ish Gal assault and in a 1 v 1 fight with both equal skill,equal proficiency , guess who will win, 100% of the time?

EXACTLY. :3

(sorry im not intending to sound rude here.)

Since 1.4, which I refer to as the CoD patch, TTK is so ridiculously low that that extra EHP only amounts an extra 0.5 seconds.

ok.
Chances.

What are the odds of finding an 1200 Cal Logi and what are the chances of finding a 1150 Gal assault in a game?
Cal Logi have pretty good odds dont you think?

This is because Cal Logi 1200EHP is a REALISTIC fitting. Your Gal Assault ISNT.
There by is NOT a context but a mere form of reality.

1200 EHP Cal Logi, is usable and viable.
1150 GAL is not.

Best you'll get is 950ish Gal assault and in a 1 v 1 fight with both equal skill,equal proficiency , guess who will win, 100% of the time?

EXACTLY. :3

(sorry im not intending to sound rude here.)

Well I do not really see your point here. Both fittings are equally viable. What makes one more likely than the other? The SP needed for both would be the same. If the opportunity to fit a tanked Assault is there and people choose not to use it then why is that the 'fault' of Logistics?

Well I do not really see your point here. Both fittings are equally viable. What makes one more likely than the other? The SP needed for both would be the same. If the opportunity to fit a tanked Assault is there and people choose not to use it then why is that the 'fault' of Logistics?

So, if you can't beat a suit that has a fraction of a second more survivability than yours with your suit that has two weapons to their one, who's really at fault there? Sometimes you have to wonder if the problem is on your end instead of blaming game mechanics that are different. It makes you no better than that one guy saying shotguns need a nerf because he refused to change his tactics or that guy crying that he can't kill a well fit tank with his anti-armor starter fit. Give it a rest CHECKMATE, you're starting to embarrass yourself.

Basically you're asking them to use both weapons at the same time?.....

Cause most suits will drop before a reload is needed. o...o?

Checkmate, you're trying to say that a logi can overcome the stamina disadvantage by using a stamina mod. You're ignoring that this means dropping a complex plate, putting the assault suit into a very clear hp advantage. Put that biotic on there and the logi can move around almost as well as the assault, but now it has less hp and still has less firepower. Meaning the assault is the better suit for....assaulting.

People seem to be getting mad about dying to a suit they think should be helpless and then going into some truly absurd mental gymnastics to justify their position, to the degree where they point out that drawbacks can be compensated for and then refusing to acknowledge that doing so requires a trade off.

No, but fight a suit that has 1200 HP along with a 5 HP armor rep, versus a suit with 800 HP and an 5 HP armor rep is an one sided battle.

And considering that the 1200 HP suit is the suit for supporting the team seems imbalanced. Why would the logi need so much HP if he's dropping hives and links, repping allies, occasionally jumping out to rev a ally, and occasionally shooting the bad guy. Why does it need 50% more health then the guy who's actually getting shot at?

Who cares if it takes forever to cross the map. No one else remembers the old school heavy taxi?

Been a logi since Chromosome and a support/healer class in just about every game I've played- PVP or otherwise. It's an unwritten rule in gaming that you kill the support first or you're going to have a hard time with the DPS.

Conclusion

While the average Logistics dropsuit could squeeze out a slight advantage in HP, it is barely a level that could be defined as over powered in such a comparison. We are only talking about a couple of well placed AR rounds. The Assault suits are positioned to be just as effective in a 'slayer' role and should stand toe to toe without issue. In fact, most would probably value the slight advantage in speed over a few dozen hit points. Properly fitted Assault suits can also take better advantage of their racial bonuses in an offensive role.

Therefore I see no evidence to make the claim that a 'Logi Assault' fitting should be the dominate force on the battlefield. And therefore the current stats for all Logistics suits can and should stay just how they are. As for 'mandatory equipment' slots...forget I ever mentioned it.

Reality Check

The above fittings are extreme examples to prove a particular point. The reality is very few, if any, players are going to set up a fitting like the ones listed above for consistent use in gameplay. They are just not very well balanced suits. It is doubtful any player has the SP to pull it off now or in the near future anyway.

Players need to understand that, nine times out of ten, there is going to be someone on the battlefield that can beat you in a straight up gunfight. Every player skills things a bit differenetly and that creates a lot of diversity from player to player. More often than that, players with less skill or lower gear are going to catch you in a position weakness, even if only for a split second. And it will often be that momentary advantage and not their loadout that will be your undoing.

Combat is rarely about being equal and it is almost never fair. The two most valuable assests you can deploy into the Burn Zone are teamwork and communication...and neither one are available in the Marketplace.

~Here ended the lesson~

Your suits are build around Max EHP, on the field its not always about max EHP but about killing the other guy first before he gets to kill you, every Logi suits can be build around having the same EHP as any Assault, but with additional Damage Mods, my Amarr suit has typically 2 damage mods and i sit at around 700-750 EHP, any Logistics suit can easely match that EHP or add about 80 extra ontop of that but with 3 Damage Mods, if he doesnt we are looking at a 200-250 EHP diffrence for the same Damage dealt.

Maybe between scrubs 2-3 rounds hit or miss when you miss 30 rounds out of a 60 round clip isnt a whole lot, but for people who make it so that 3 rounds missed on a clip of 60 with the other 57 hitting its intended target that 200 EHP extra is Night and Day and between people of the same skill level means the guy in the Logi suit gets to walk away from EVERY confrontation he has with the same skilled Assault Player.

I know that its hard for you to understand the concept of actually hitting all your rounds on target, but when its 1-2 rounds between life & death, i should have gone with a Logi suit back when i thought oh they will fix this.



Heres another Reality Check for you, i am at 24m sp and can make both Amarr Proto and Caldari "Neo" Logi Proto with every Module at a complex level, i also have ALL of the Core skills at level 5 and all my main & secondary weapon at 5.

I am fully specced into the Infantry role and each time i look at my Logi Build when comparing it to my Amarr assault build, i wish i could slap that onto my amarr suit.

Teamwork & Communications are overated, most times in one of these Top Level teams, someone is talking about his work or the other guy is talking jiberish and we are all just strolling around looking for a berry to kill because theres just so very few of them on the field when you are in one of those team.

Don't kid yourself that these guys are using actual coordinated teamwork to beat a bunch of bad players, more often then not the raw skill diffrence is what gets new & bad people canned by the dozen.

And how often are the support classes tougher than the frontline classes?

Absolutely never.