DUST Search - Debunking the 'Assault Logi' Myth

Rei Shepard wrote:

Quote:

Conclusion

While the average Logistics dropsuit could squeeze out a slight advantage in HP, it is barely a level that could be defined as over powered in such a comparison. We are only talking about a couple of well placed AR rounds. The Assault suits are positioned to be just as effective in a 'slayer' role and should stand toe to toe without issue. In fact, most would probably value the slight advantage in speed over a few dozen hit points. Properly fitted Assault suits can also take better advantage of their racial bonuses in an offensive role.

Therefore I see no evidence to make the claim that a 'Logi Assault' fitting should be the dominate force on the battlefield. And therefore the current stats for all Logistics suits can and should stay just how they are. As for 'mandatory equipment' slots...forget I ever mentioned it.

Your suits are build around Max EHP, on the field its not always about max EHP but about killing the other guy first before he gets to kill you, every Logi suits can be build around having the same EHP as any Assault, but with additional Damage Mods, my Amarr suit has typically 2 damage mods and i sit at around 700-750 EHP, any Logistics suit can easely match that EHP or add about 80 extra ontop of that but with 3 Damage Mods, if he doesnt we are looking at a 200-250 EHP diffrence for the same Damage dealt.

Maybe between scrubs 2-3 rounds hit or miss when you miss 30 rounds out of a 60 round clip isnt a whole lot, but for people who make it so that 3 rounds missed on a clip of 60 with the other 57 hitting its intended target that 200 EHP extra is Night and Day and between people of the same skill level means the guy in the Logi suit gets to walk away from EVERY confrontation he has with the same skilled Assault Player.

I know that its hard for you to understand the concept of actually hitting all your rounds on target, but when its 1-2 rounds between life & death, i should have gone with a Logi suit back when i thought oh they will fix this.

Quote:

Reality Check

The above fittings are extreme examples to prove a particular point. The reality is very few, if any, players are going to set up a fitting like the ones listed above for consistent use in gameplay. They are just not very well balanced suits. It is doubtful any player has the SP to pull it off now or in the near future anyway.

Players need to understand that, nine times out of ten, there is going to be someone on the battlefield that can beat you in a straight up gunfight. Every player skills things a bit differenetly and that creates a lot of diversity from player to player. More often than that, players with less skill or lower gear are going to catch you in a position weakness, even if only for a split second. And it will often be that momentary advantage and not their loadout that will be your undoing.

Combat is rarely about being equal and it is almost never fair. The two most valuable assests you can deploy into the Burn Zone are teamwork and communication...and neither one are available in the Marketplace.

~Here ended the lesson~

Heres another Reality Check for you, i am at 24m sp and can make both Amarr Proto and Caldari "Neo" Logi Proto with every Module at a complex level, i also have ALL of the Core skills at level 5 and all my main & secondary weapon at 5.

I am fully specced into the Infantry role and each time i look at my Logi Build when comparing it to my Amarr assault build, i wish i could slap that onto my amarr suit.

Teamwork & Communications are overated, most times in one of these Top Level teams, someone is talking about his work or the other guy is talking jiberish and we are all just strolling around looking for a berry to kill because theres just so very few of them on the field when you are in one of those team.

Don't kid yourself that these guys are using actual coordinated teamwork to beat a bunch of bad players, more often then not the raw skill diffrence is what gets new & bad people canned by the dozen.


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RydogV Shadow Company HQ 314	Posted - 2013.09.12 04:58:00 - [1] - Quote TL;DR - The claim of 'Assault Logi' being OP is a load of crap. Every so often, when there is less and less to complain about in the threads, I start to see "Nerf the Logi" posts. The reason for such outcry is generaly centered around the belief that Logistics suits provide significantly better resources for building an effective 'slayer' class then the Assualt suits do. Often the argument is about how Logistics can out-tank Assault to such a degree that no serious mercenary, hell-bent on death and destruction, would skill any other way. All others cry foul and claim as 'fact' that the Logistics suit is so overwhelming, it breaks the game from a balance perspective. In fact, at one point we were hearing this argument so much that I, a dedicated 'true' Logistics player since closed beta, actually began to think there was some truth to the claim. So much so that whenever the debate arose, I would inject what I felt was the optimal solution of making equipment slot use in Logistics fittings mandatory in order for the suit to be valid. This idea was often met with a mix of approval and criticizm. Of course, I believed it was a better solution than lowering of CPU/PG or removal of module slots from any Logistics suit. Finally, I decided to investigate the claim on my own. The biggest complaints spring from belief that Logi's are too tough to beat in a heads-up, one-on-one engagement. This of course is centered around the perceived ability to amass so much HP, through the use of excessive module slots,unfair amounts of CPU/PG and ignoring the Equipment slots, that no Assault suit can stand a chance. So my (unscientific) experiment will revolve around the build up of HP through Shield Extenders and Armor Modules, in the High/Low slots, for each race's Assault and Logistics class dropsuit. The only other slots that will be filled on any suit are the Light Weapon Slot, with a Duvolle Assult Rifle, and the grenade slot, with basic Locus Grenades. All of the fittings are based on a character who is skilled in level 5 across all skills and using Prototype level dropsuits. Since sidarms are not an option in 3 out of 4 Logistics suits, no suit is fitted with them. No equipment is fitted either. Under these conditions, no fitting has an offensive advantage in either weapon or skills. The combination of modules for each fitting is such that it would give the player the maximum number of HP between shields and armor, without dropping the Movement Speed below 4.0 or the Sprint Speed below 6.0 respectively. These speeds seemed the minimum any player could go and still be effective in a 'slayer' type role. Below are the specs using the Dust 514 Fitting Tool created by hydraSlav's and then my conclusion: Assault Dropsuits (Bonus: +25% to dropsuit shield recharge rate at Level 5) Amarr Assault ak.0 (Bonus: +25% to Laser heat buildup at Level 5) H1: Complex Shield Extender H2: Complex Shield Extender H3: Complex Shield Extender L1: Complex Armor Plate L2: Complex Armor Plate L3: Complex Armor Plate Shield: 443 Armor: 670 Total: 1113 Remaining CPU/PG: 131/13 Caldari Assault ck.0 (Bonus: 10% efficacy to Shield Extenders at Level 5) H1: Complex Shield Extender H2: Complex Shield Extender H3: Complex Shield Extender H4: EMPTY L1: Complex Armor Plate L2: Complex Armor Plate L3: Complex Armor Plate Shield: 502 Armor: 595 Total: 1097 Remaining CPU/PG: 66/0 Gallente Assault gk.0 (Bonus: -25% to Hybrid Weapon CPU/PG at Level 5) H1: Complex Shield Extender H2: Complex Shield Extender H3: EMPTY L1: Complex Armor Plate L2: Complex Armor Plate L3: Complex Armor Plate L4: Complex Armor Plate Shield: 295 Armor: 856 Total: 1151 Remaining CPU/PG: 109/2 Minmatar Assault mk.0 (Bonus: +25% to Sidearm clip size at Level 5) H1: Complex Shield Extender H2: Complex Shield Extender H3: Complex Shield Extender H4: Complex Shield Extender H5: Enhanced Shield Extender L1: Complex Armor Plate L2: Complex Armor Plate Shield: 514 Armor: 466 Total: 980 Remaining CPU/PG: 32/0 Logistics Dropsuits (Bonus: +5 HP/sec Armor Repair Rate at Level 5) Amarr Logistics ak.0 (Bonus: +25% efficacy to Armor Repair Modules at Level 5) H1: Complex Shield Extender H2: Complex Shield Extender H3: Complex Shield Extender L1: Complex Armor Plate L2: Complex Armor Plate L3: Enhanced Armor Plate L4: Complex Ferroscale Plate Shield: 368 Armor: 725 Total: 1093 Remaining CPU/PG: 147/5 Caldari Logistics ck.0 (Bonus: +25% efficacy to Shield Regulator Modules at Level 5) H1: Complex Shield Extender H2: Complex Shield Extender H3: Complex Shield Extender H4: Complex Shield Extender H5: EMPTY L1: Complex Armor Plate L2: Complex Armor Plate L3: Complex Armor Plate L4: Complex Armor Plate Shield: 515 Armor: 706 Total: 1221 Remaining CPU/PG: 47/0 Gallente Logistics gk.0 (Bonus: -25% to Equipment CPU/PG at Level 5) H1: Complex Shield Extender H2: Complex Shield Extender H3: Complex Shield Extender L1: Complex Armor Plate L2: Complex Armor Plate L3: Complex Armor Plate L4: Complex Armor Plate L5: Enhanced Ferroscale Plate Shield: 330 Armor: 874 Total: 1204 Remaining CPU/PG: 119/2 Minmater Logistics mk.0 (Bonus: +25% to Hacking Speed at Level 5) H1: Complex Shield Extender H2: Complex Shield Extender H3: Complex Shield Extender H4: Complex Shield Extender L1: Complex Armor Plate L2: Complex Armor Plate L3: Complex Armor Plate L4: Enhanced Ferroscale Plate Shield: 403 Armor: 754 Total: 1157 Remaining CPU/PG: 102/4 EMPTY slots due to lack of PG to fit any more Shield Extender Modules.
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 314	Posted - 2013.09.12 04:59:00 - [2] - Quote Findings - The most durable suits in each class are the Caldari Logistics (1221) and the Gallente Assault (1151). With a difference of 70 HP. - The least durable are the Amarr Logistics (1093) and the Minmater Assault (980). With a difference of 113 HP. - The averages of Logistics (1168.75) and Assault (1085.25) are seperated by a mere 83.5 HP or little more than two rounds from a Basic Assault Rifle. - The Caldari Assault and Logistics and the Gallente Assault all have an empty high slot, with not enough PG for any to run even Basic Shield Extenders. They each could however equip certain levels of a Shield Recharger for added capability as they require no PG. - Most suits had enough CPU/PG left over to run a Basic piece of Equipment. The Amarr Assault could equip a Sidearm instead. - The fastest Logistics suit (Minmatar) would have a Movement Speed of 4.44 and a Sprint Speed of 6.53. Sprint Speed for all other Logistics suits ranked between 6 and 6.2. - The fastest Assault suit (Minmatar) would have a Movement Speed of 4.82 and a Sprint Speed of 7.08. Sprint Speed for all other Assault suits was above 6.4. - Role specific bonuses would unlikely come into play for a heads-up engagement. Only Cladari Assault and Gallente Assault would benefit from Racial Bonus as fitted. - All suits, except the Minmatar Assault, are Armor heavy. Conclusion While the average Logistics dropsuit could squeeze out a slight advantage in HP, it is barely a level that could be defined as over powered in such a comparison. We are only talking about a couple of well placed AR rounds. The Assault suits are positioned to be just as effective in a 'slayer' role and should stand toe to toe without issue. In fact, most would probably value the slight advantage in speed over a few dozen hit points. Properly fitted Assault suits can also take better advantage of their racial bonuses in an offensive role. Therefore I see no evidence to make the claim that a 'Logi Assault' fitting should be the dominate force on the battlefield. And therefore the current stats for all Logistics suits can and should stay just how they are. As for 'mandatory equipment' slots...forget I ever mentioned it. Reality Check The above fittings are extreme examples to prove a particular point. The reality is very few, if any, players are going to set up a fitting like the ones listed above for consistent use in gameplay. They are just not very well balanced suits. It is doubtful any player has the SP to pull it off now or in the near future anyway. Players need to understand that, nine times out of ten, there is going to be someone on the battlefield that can beat you in a straight up gunfight. Every player skills things a bit differenetly and that creates a lot of diversity from player to player. More often than that, players with less skill or lower gear are going to catch you in a position weakness, even if only for a split second. And it will often be that momentary advantage and not their loadout that will be your undoing. Combat is rarely about being equal and it is almost never fair. The two most valuable assests you can deploy into the Burn Zone are teamwork and communication...and neither one are available in the Marketplace. ~Here ended the lesson~
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 316	Posted - 2013.09.12 05:16:00 - [3] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Chances Ghost wrote: excelently written Only the data is false. There s no way th assault suits have room for weapons/ nades after that kind of fitting. Then the fitting tool is broken. Keep in mind that every skill available in game for these examples is maxed and ensure maximum efficany to each dropsuit and module.
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 317	Posted - 2013.09.12 05:48:00 - [4] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Chances Ghost wrote: excelently written Only the data is false. There s no way th assault suits have room for weapons/ nades after that kind of fitting. I went back and checked the numbers...and you were correct...the basic Locus Grenade was not registering on a couple of suits because it switches slots on the spreadsheet. I have adjusted numbers and I will update them. However, the new figures are not far off from the originals posted and do little to change my conclusion. Thanks for keeping me honest :)
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 323	Posted - 2013.09.12 06:13:00 - [5] - Quote Chances Ghost wrote: Rogatien Merc wrote: lol you are correct. I'm not refuting the numbers that he ran; but I am saying they are meaningless. "TL;DR - The claim of 'Assault Logi' being OP is a load of crap." <---- was the point of his post. MY point is that his HP experiment in the following post does nothing to support that argument. i like your arguement, and now that youve presented it i have to agree. while the builts presented on the HP front prove the overall HP capabilitys they arnt viable as actual builds. and when push comes to shove that 5+ rep is what makes the brick tank viable, assaults cant achieve the same results in the brick tank department without it, and while they will have their shields back faster their over time their armor will be the death of them. in addition to that the logi can gimp its HP to equip the rep hive, something the assault suit just cant do if it wants a reasonable buffer do to CPU and PG restrictions. These are valid points. Most people who come on the forums and complain about the 'Logi Assault' are reacting to one on one encounters with a player who has a considerable amount of HP. Claiming that they could not wear them down fast enough to avoid getting killed. Then they look to the number of module slots and the CPU/PG numbers and say "Ah Ha!!" That is how they beat me. I am trying to demonstrate that an Assault with its lower module slots and CPU/PG...but higher base HP....can reach similar levels of defensive durability, with all else being equal. Once either role dropsuit starts to add equipment or adjust weapons in order to become more specialized or more versatile then they generally do so at the sacrifice of HP. An now it is no longer about capability of a dropsuit...it is about preference and playstyle. But few players are willing to acknowledge that when they feel as though they have been 'cheated' in a video game.
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 323	Posted - 2013.09.12 06:21:00 - [6] - Quote Rogatien Merc wrote: And I disagree with the contention that all "logis are OP" arguments are based on EHP disparities. They are based on the perception that logis win 1v1s against assaults. This involves several factors including not only EHP but resilience (built in reps, similar shield recharge to non-ck.0 assaults), equipment availability (scanners, compact hives to emergency triage, along with REs for example). Currently arguments are also skewing toward the fact that speed tanking was nerfed (strafe speed, aim assist) reducing the assault's net advantage from greater speed. If you want to refute the "Assault Logi > All" myth as a non-dropsuit issue, you should say things like "Logically, a sidearm provides more damage options across different range spectrums and in prolonged combat" and "this is due to the net SP and game experience disparity between residual high-SP Cal Logi suits - since that is what a lot of experienced players specced into post-respec - and assault users who may be newer players." Granted...a sidearm makes a huge difference. But a lot of complainers will dismiss the importance of a sidearm in their argument. Typically because they say they were downed before reverting to the sidearm became a factor in the exchange. And of course other inherent bonuses will come into play the longer an exchange drags on. The ability to repair shields and armor are very important. But they are less important for the short exchanges that many complainers describe. Like "we both came around the corner and started shooting each other at the same time". It usually is never 'the same time" but that is how they remember it. And they will often leave out if they were still recovering from previous damage taken. Essentially my argument is: There is no argument. Each role of dropsuit has its strengths and weaknesses and each one is more than capable of putting together a worthwhile combat platform for various duties. The End.
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 324	Posted - 2013.09.12 06:30:00 - [7] - Quote Rogatien Merc wrote: complete lack of armor reps is not 'durability' bro. Again you talking about an extended exchange. Armor repair takes a pretty long time and is useless unless you are in cover. Each side can list off all kinds of exceptions. Like for instance how more often is a Logistics player holding something other than a weapon in their hand as compared to an Assault? Don't you think the ability to react and quickly engage the enemy is not a deciding factor? I have been caught many a time with a Repair Tool or some other piece of equipment in my hands and ended up dead because of it. Most Assaults don't really worry about that as often and are able to maintain better situational awareness. We could go round and round. Bottom line...Assaults are the best Assault platforms and 'Logi Assaults'....well, are a silly monkier someone came up with and are not relevant in the grand scheme of things. I would not expect a Logi nerf anytime soon.
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 324	Posted - 2013.09.12 06:46:00 - [8] - Quote Django Quik wrote: RydogV wrote: Rogatien Merc wrote: complete lack of armor reps is not 'durability' bro. Again you talking about an extended exchange. Armor repair takes a pretty long time and is useless unless you are in cover. Each side can list off all kinds of exceptions. Like for instance how more often is a Logistics player holding something other than a weapon in their hand as compared to an Assault? Don't you think the ability to react and quickly engage the enemy is not a deciding factor? I have been caught many a time with a Repair Tool or some other piece of equipment in my hands and ended up dead because of it. Most Assaults don't really worry about that as often and are able to maintain better situational awareness. We could go round and round. Bottom line...Assaults are the best Assault platforms and 'Logi Assaults'....well, are a silly monkier someone came up with and are not relevant in the grand scheme of things. I would not expect a Logi nerf anytime soon. You're now talking about proper logis. The op is demonstrating logi assaults with no equipment doing the job of an assault better than an assault with the added bonus of built in repair when out of battle that HP impossible with the assault without losing over 100HP. The fact is logis can do everything every other suit can do at least as well except carry heavy weapons. Right and when you are talking about thing like Shield and Armor repair was are not talking about winning a gunfight, you are talking about long-term survivability over the course of extended gameplay. People can complain about inherent Armor repair all they want, but let me ask you...who is repairing the guy/gal repairing everyone else? Answer: usually no one. Inherent Armor repair doesn't help me win a gunfight...ever. But it does keep me in the mix and doing my job.
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 324	Posted - 2013.09.12 06:58:00 - [9] - Quote Django Quik wrote: You're still talking about proper logis. If you're running the types of logis being discussed, you're not repping anyone. I don't know why you're getting so up in arms over this - you don't even sound like you play assault logi. You are absolutely correct. I do not play 'Assault Logi'. Never have, never will. But when people get out the torches and pitchforks because they feel like a few players are abusing a fitting platform (and they are wrong) then that has the potential to impact me, a 'True" Logi, in a negative way. I am not on here defending 'Assault Logi's'. I am here saying that it is a non-issue. In other words: "These are not the droids, you're looking for. Move along...move along."
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 324	Posted - 2013.09.12 07:05:00 - [10] - Quote dustwaffle wrote: Rusty Shallows wrote: In all fairness the loudest complaints were when the Caldari Logi had the two percent buff skill and extra CPU. Wait, what? Gallente Minmatar and Amarr logi have the SAME CPU, caldari has less. He is talking about prior to the change last month.

RydogV Shadow Company HQ 495	Posted - 2013.10.25 03:23:00 - [11] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Funny. I like how he skewed the results with a ferroscale plate in the Gallente, Minmatar and Amarr suit. Put a normal plate there, just like EVERYBODY else. Ta-da! Not only do you practically double the HP you get from the slot, you get more fitting resources to fit even more tank mods! One of the stipulations I set was not letting the speed drop below a certain level. Sure you could tank yourself to a crawl be that isn't very realistic.
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 503	Posted - 2013.10.25 04:33:00 - [12] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: LOGISTICS ARMOR REPAIR BONUS. The main reason Logis can HP tank as they can is they really DONT need to equip an armor repairer, unlike the ASsaults. Sure a gallante Assault COULD come CLOSE the the Caldari Logi in HP, but that will never happen,because the Gallante Assault WILL SACRIFICE one of his complex plates,for a COmplex armor repairer... How much does that add to? that would be if im not mistaken, OVER 210 Armor HP and still better shield recharge delay AND more equipments in trade of what? a sidearm? a little more stamina? So, in order to do this REALISTIC, you need to fit in a Cx Armor repairer, to ALL the assaults. Well I believe originally I was responding to all the widespread allegations regarding straight up head to head encounters people were saying that they were having with Logis. The type of firefights where Shield and Armor regeneration are not going to really come into play because one of the party is going to be dead in a couple seconds. For prolonged engagements when players are ducking in and out of cover, flanking, tossing grenades and such then things change drastically. I mean in such cases you have to start factoring in the Assaults ability to switch to a sidearm versus the Logistics player having to reload. Then that second weapons slot becomes VERY important. Bottom line, the more variables that you factor into the gunfight, the less anyone is able to point to one particular aspect of a dropsuit and say "that makes it OP and one-sided" the whole argument becomes moot. As it is the argument is pretty circular and pointless in my opinion. People want to blame the suit but it is really all about the player in it. There is always going to be someone on the battlefield more skilled or better fitted. Chances are you got beat because they are either better or they got the drop on you.
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 503	Posted - 2013.10.25 04:43:00 - [13] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: ok. Chances. What are the odds of finding an 1200 Cal Logi and what are the chances of finding a 1150 Gal assault in a game? Cal Logi have pretty good odds dont you think? This is because Cal Logi 1200EHP is a REALISTIC fitting. Your Gal Assault ISNT. There by is NOT a context but a mere form of reality. 1200 EHP Cal Logi, is usable and viable. 1150 GAL is not. Best you'll get is 950ish Gal assault and in a 1 v 1 fight with both equal skill,equal proficiency , guess who will win, 100% of the time? EXACTLY. :3 (sorry im not intending to sound rude here.) Well I do not really see your point here. Both fittings are equally viable. What makes one more likely than the other? The SP needed for both would be the same. If the opportunity to fit a tanked Assault is there and people choose not to use it then why is that the 'fault' of Logistics?
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 505	Posted - 2013.10.25 04:54:00 - [14] - Quote I just want to say that I have gotten to the point where I don't really care about this Logi argument anymore. It has gotten pretty silly and whatever happens it will not affect my game play in least. More HP, less HP, different bonus, mandatory equipment, CPU/PG, whatever. I am still going to run my Min Logi and I'm still gonna be carrying my Repair Tool, Nanohive and Injector into the Burn Zone with me. I gotta fight the Assaults and 'Assault Logis' just like everyone else does. Chances are they are better fitted than me for actual combat...dems the breaks right? When they start shooting at me I am probably gonna be holding a friggin repper in my hand and nine times out of ten I probably won't break the stream in the hopes that they guy I am squaring away has got that covered. If not, I rest easy knowing I was doing my job. Respawn and repeat. It's just a friggin' game.
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 510	Posted - 2013.10.25 14:07:00 - [15] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: Quote: Conclusion While the average Logistics dropsuit could squeeze out a slight advantage in HP, it is barely a level that could be defined as over powered in such a comparison. We are only talking about a couple of well placed AR rounds. The Assault suits are positioned to be just as effective in a 'slayer' role and should stand toe to toe without issue. In fact, most would probably value the slight advantage in speed over a few dozen hit points. Properly fitted Assault suits can also take better advantage of their racial bonuses in an offensive role. Therefore I see no evidence to make the claim that a 'Logi Assault' fitting should be the dominate force on the battlefield. And therefore the current stats for all Logistics suits can and should stay just how they are. As for 'mandatory equipment' slots...forget I ever mentioned it. Your suits are build around Max EHP, on the field its not always about max EHP but about killing the other guy first before he gets to kill you, every Logi suits can be build around having the same EHP as any Assault, but with additional Damage Mods, my Amarr suit has typically 2 damage mods and i sit at around 700-750 EHP, any Logistics suit can easely match that EHP or add about 80 extra ontop of that but with 3 Damage Mods, if he doesnt we are looking at a 200-250 EHP diffrence for the same Damage dealt. Maybe between scrubs 2-3 rounds hit or miss when you miss 30 rounds out of a 60 round clip isnt a whole lot, but for people who make it so that 3 rounds missed on a clip of 60 with the other 57 hitting its intended target that 200 EHP extra is Night and Day and between people of the same skill level means the guy in the Logi suit gets to walk away from EVERY confrontation he has with the same skilled Assault Player. I know that its hard for you to understand the concept of actually hitting all your rounds on target, but when its 1-2 rounds between life & death, i should have gone with a Logi suit back when i thought oh they will fix this. Quote: Reality Check The above fittings are extreme examples to prove a particular point. The reality is very few, if any, players are going to set up a fitting like the ones listed above for consistent use in gameplay. They are just not very well balanced suits. It is doubtful any player has the SP to pull it off now or in the near future anyway. Players need to understand that, nine times out of ten, there is going to be someone on the battlefield that can beat you in a straight up gunfight. Every player skills things a bit differenetly and that creates a lot of diversity from player to player. More often than that, players with less skill or lower gear are going to catch you in a position weakness, even if only for a split second. And it will often be that momentary advantage and not their loadout that will be your undoing. Combat is rarely about being equal and it is almost never fair. The two most valuable assests you can deploy into the Burn Zone are teamwork and communication...and neither one are available in the Marketplace. ~Here ended the lesson~ Heres another Reality Check for you, i am at 24m sp and can make both Amarr Proto and Caldari "Neo" Logi Proto with every Module at a complex level, i also have ALL of the Core skills at level 5 and all my main & secondary weapon at 5. I am fully specced into the Infantry role and each time i look at my Logi Build when comparing it to my Amarr assault build, i wish i could slap that onto my amarr suit. Teamwork & Communications are overated, most times in one of these Top Level teams, someone is talking about his work or the other guy is talking jiberish and we are all just strolling around looking for a berry to kill because theres just so very few of them on the field when you are in one of those team. Don't kid yourself that these guys are using actual coordinated teamwork to beat a bunch of bad players, more often then not the raw skill diffrence is what gets new & bad people canned by the dozen. Awesome Bro!! Keep on, keeping on! Have Fun and Happy Hunting!