DUST Search - Debunking the 'Assault Logi' Myth

Rogatien Merc wrote:

Are you serious? I read the whole thing. He goes on to demonstrate that gimp-fitted assault suits can have similar HP as viable logi suits and draws some sort of meaningful conclusion from that? It's utter bullshit. I can't believe I'm having this conversation - I don't disagree with the conclusion... but I'm not going to agree with a guy who says the sky is blue because fairies painted it with a giant skittle paintbrush even if he is correct in saying the sky is blue.

"While the average Logistics dropsuit could squeeze out a slight advantage in HP, it is barely a level that could be defined as over powered in such a comparison. We are only talking about a couple of well placed AR rounds. The Assault suits are positioned to be just as effective in a 'slayer' role and should stand toe to toe without issue. In fact, most would probably value the slight advantage in speed over a few dozen hit points. Properly fitted Assault suits can also take better advantage of their racial bonuses in an offensive role."

... these conclusions are just... wrong. Logis have 5hp/s base rep which assaults have to compensate for to start with which makes buffer logi fits viable whereas full buffer assault fits are not unless you're standing on hives that a logi dropped or being repped by a logi.

The assault is more effective in a slayer role due to faster shield recharge (ck.0) and dps output (sidearm; ak.0 bonus). Not because they can stack armor plates. It's misleading and discredits the argument.

[Edit: But +1 for non-trolly legitimate well-intentioned effort. Sorry for being a ****, but ... yeah, I disagree with the post.]


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Chances Ghost Inf4m0us 766	Posted - 2013.09.12 05:05:00 - [1] - Quote excelently written
Chances Ghost Inf4m0us 767	Posted - 2013.09.12 05:21:00 - [2] - Quote RydogV wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: Chances Ghost wrote: excelently written Only the data is false. There s no way th assault suits have room for weapons/ nades after that kind of fitting. Then the fitting tool is broken. Keep in mind that every skill available in game for these examples is maxed and ensure maximum efficany to each dropsuit and module. hes actually collected data. if youw ant to prove it false you have to actually provide evidence rather then just exclaiming its wrong without actually doing any research on it. have some respoect for the amount of work put into this is combat it with numbers rather then conjecture.
Chances Ghost Inf4m0us 767	Posted - 2013.09.12 05:37:00 - [3] - Quote Rogatien Merc wrote: Chances Ghost wrote: RydogV wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: Chances Ghost wrote: excelently written Only the data is false. There s no way th assault suits have room for weapons/ nades after that kind of fitting. Then the fitting tool is broken. Keep in mind that every skill available in game for these examples is maxed and ensure maximum efficany to each dropsuit and module. hes actually collected data. if youw ant to prove it false you have to actually provide evidence rather then just exclaiming its wrong without actually doing any research on it. have some respoect for the amount of work put into this is combat it with numbers rather then conjecture. honestly this is poorly put together. and i'm a huge cal logi guy - using 3x shield ext 3x complex plates with an empty high on an assault ck.0 as the basis for any sort of argument, hypothetical, rhetorical, or explanatory is ***** ** poor dude. on the other hand... my 1100hp cal logi is QUITE viable, if not the fit I actually use. i think you need to read it again.... you seem to be missing the point presented above. he built the suits to maximise HP and conform to certain restrictions (movement speed) obviously THESE fits are mostly impractical, they were made as a min/max scenario to illistrate that the maximum HP disarity is extremly small. stating his results are invalad because you wouldnt built a suit like that is... well it doesnt mean anything, just that you dont like it. stating your suit is more viable then the cal assault suit based on the fact that you wouldnt use it is also not a counter argument. your not actually useing facts here... just opinion.
Chances Ghost Inf4m0us 767	Posted - 2013.09.12 05:53:00 - [4] - Quote Rogatien Merc wrote: Are you serious? I read the whole thing. He goes on to demonstrate that gimp-fitted assault suits can have similar HP as viable logi suits and draws some sort of meaningful conclusion from that? It's utter bullshit. I can't believe I'm having this conversation - I don't disagree with the conclusion... but I'm not going to agree with a guy who says the sky is blue because fairies painted it with a giant skittle paintbrush even if he is correct in saying the sky is blue. "While the average Logistics dropsuit could squeeze out a slight advantage in HP, it is barely a level that could be defined as over powered in such a comparison. We are only talking about a couple of well placed AR rounds. The Assault suits are positioned to be just as effective in a 'slayer' role and should stand toe to toe without issue. In fact, most would probably value the slight advantage in speed over a few dozen hit points. Properly fitted Assault suits can also take better advantage of their racial bonuses in an offensive role." ... these conclusions are just... wrong. Logis have 5hp/s base rep which assaults have to compensate for to start with which makes buffer logi fits viable whereas full buffer assault fits are not unless you're standing on hives that a logi dropped or being repped by a logi. The assault is more effective in a slayer role due to faster shield recharge (ck.0) and dps output (sidearm; ak.0 bonus). Not because they can stack armor plates. It's misleading and discredits the argument. [Edit: But +1 for non-trolly legitimate well-intentioned effort. Sorry for being a ****, but ... yeah, I disagree with the post.] thank you, for actually using an argument that isnt based entirely on opinion. now your argument has merit. most "logi are OP" arguments are based off of the fact that logis can fit mroe EHP and gain an advantage that way while sacaficing their equip slots to do so. this post seems like it was countering that point specifically. if we look at the data he colelcted it seems that both suits can achieve a similar HP value and therefore the difference in power isnt related to their total potential HP from the data i can be reasonable sure that this is true provided the data is correct YOUR argument stems from the imbalance of skill abilitys the +5 rep of logis increases their validity as pure buffer tanks and the assault suits shield regen advantage isnt enough to tip the scale in favor of teh assault class, meaning while their compairable HP value is the same the fitting abilities and passive skilsl tip the favor towards logis as a slayer role. so while your not refuting the point about their HP values being the same your refuting that the disparity of teh classes stems from another issue entirely is this correct?
Chances Ghost Inf4m0us 767	Posted - 2013.09.12 06:03:00 - [5] - Quote Rogatien Merc wrote: lol you are correct. I'm not refuting the numbers that he ran; but I am saying they are meaningless. "TL;DR - The claim of 'Assault Logi' being OP is a load of crap." <---- was the point of his post. MY point is that his HP experiment in the following post does nothing to support that argument. i like your arguement, and now that youve presented it i have to agree. while the builts presented on the HP front prove the overall HP capabilitys they arnt viable as actual builds. and when push comes to shove that 5+ rep is what makes the brick tank viable, assaults cant achieve the same results in the brick tank department without it, and while they will have their shields back faster their over time their armor will be the death of them. in addition to that the logi can gimp its HP to equip the rep hive, something the assault suit just cant do if it wants a reasonable buffer do to CPU and PG restrictions. (you dont just have to say its meaningless.... you have to provide evidence to support it :P or people like me will pester you)
Chances Ghost Inf4m0us 768	Posted - 2013.09.12 06:44:00 - [6] - Quote more to the point CCP has admitted that the +5 rep skill is an issue and are working on new bonuses for the suits to encourage more logi'ish behavior. so that +5 reps will be something of teh past at some point in the future
Chances Ghost Inf4m0us 770	Posted - 2013.09.12 08:00:00 - [7] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1291873#post1291873 deal with it