Does Diversity Matter?

The thing is, unless you drive the AR a mile into the ground, it's always going to be the most used weapon, and maybe it should be.
But wait, there's more. An AR is a simple to use weapon, and many will be familiar with it. It's you standard "do all" weapon that doesn't excel in any area.
Now, I'm not saying it's perfect as is, but chances are, unless the nerfhammer hits it harder than an LAV hits a heavy, it's probably going to stick as the most used weapon for a while to come, because of it's familiarity and versatility.

I get that it will likely always be the most popular. My question is more about is it too popular, or is it not even important how popular it is/isn't because diversity doesn't matter?

Obviously, I think it's current popularity is too high, and that this is hurting the game by hurting diversity, but I don't ever expect the AR to not be popular.

We have 10 of 12 weapons though, that combined, are only used (to kill) just a little bit more than the single weapon system that is the AR.

Is that a problem to you?

Fair enough, yeah, I'd say the AR is a tad over the expected usage of it, although, I must say, I fear that if the flaylock is brought into line, then many will return to the AR, spiking it's numbers once again.

Straight answer: Diversity is key to a game like this, more needs to be done to encourage experimentation, not punish it.

Compiles 4 skirmish games worth of "data"

Implies that CCP don't know **** 'bout their own data, through suggesting that 4 games worth of data counters well over a years worth of gameplay data

Cla.....

What I see here are a lot of people looking at the 50m target and not seeing the 300m.

First let me say that the idea that dust doesnt favor diversity is off base. I maintain about 20ish fits, for whatever situation I might run into/can think of. The game is intended to be situational. In that sense having all theses options by simply running to the resupply and resuiting is a core mechanic......if you use it. No I dont switch suits every game. Yes, I favor the AR because the AR is a standard weapon.

The idea that the SP system locks you into a role only reflects the fact that the game is still new. Ya if feels like that now, it wont feel like that in a year when you have 20-30m sp or whatever. If you are still locked into a role at that point it is because you chose to do so. Naturally, if you can do a few roles well, you proabably arent as good at any of them as someone who stayed specialized. Yet, you have more options.

This is a core CCP philosophy and isn't going anywhere. Welcome to New Eden. HTFU.

This is a core CCP philosophy and isn't going anywhere. Welcome to New Eden. HTFU.

Yes I am fine with it. This game isn't done. There is a long way to go and as the player base develop so will the tactics and weapon choices they make. I think this is nothing more than the growing pains of a new game.

But let me add that the AR will probably always be dominate. Just like the standard combat rifles in real life. Assualt rifles are the first and most commonly use weapon for all the obvious reasons. As you develop your skill, perferences and a team your weapon choice will tend to change. Expecting the AR to NOT do most of the killing...especially this early in the game, isnt reasonable.

No its QQ like a b!tch until CCP grants your wish then run back to thinking you run things

Lets use weapons at range and not rush in, lets use re's to bait the flaylock and contact grenade rushers, lets play more careful - Adapt or Die

No - lets QQ til CCP nerfs another weapon. Good

Its back to run and gun, others dont like it "go back to insert fps insult"

Mad skills baby

.....So why quote me then? lol

Others also collected data. The combined kills for pub matches is 850. I agree that CCP has the real data, but they don't seem to want to present it, so I, and others, collected what we could.

I think these data are a decent cross section of pub matches.

You are free to collect your own set and compare. If you do, please post the results.

Because obviously your fake mantra given to you by this oh so great developer doesnt hold any water or are you happy being deluded.

So, I assume you're good then with the AR usage being just a little bit more than the least used 10 out of 12 weapons combined?

Rename the AR once other variants come out make it the Blaster Rifle so there is nothing called the AR which will make the majority of new players think before going "Uhhhh.... me be scrub, me need assault rifle!" they won't see an assault rifle then they'll be more likely to choose a more interesting variant.

Also remember that two of the four basic starter fits come stocked with an unlimited supply of free ARs, while the other two are the Sniper and AV fits

The fact that anyone running a free suit to save ISK is probably using an AR is bound to significantly skew your data in it's favor.

There are a lot of cool-LOOKING weapons in the game. I really like to play around with all the different stuff, and would do so even more than I have, if SP weren't an issue. Unfortunately, none of them seem to be as versatile or easy to use as the AR. Which bums me out, since I find the AR kind of boring. I've been running it on an alt the past few days, though, and it makes everything so much ... easier. It's a shame, really, since the diversity of weapons, suits, etc., is what drew me to this. Now, though, I'm thinking I may just go ahead and skill my main into an AR after all, so that when the inevitable (re)nerf comes to my mass driver, I still have something that is usable...

Also remember that two of the four basic starter fits come stocked with an unlimited supply of free ARs, while the other two are the Sniper and AV fits

The fact that anyone running a free suit to save ISK is probably using an AR is bound to significantly skew your data in it's favor.

Also, many of the other weapons need to be specifically and intentionally bought and/or specced into. A player needs to go looking for them in the Marketplace, ensure they meet any SP requirements, and apply them to a custom Dropsuit, in order to use them.

The AR is handed to ALL new players, the moment they set foot into Battle Academy.

It's no surprise (to me) that the majority (at least of newer) players in pub matches would be more familiar and comfortable with, and therefor more likely to use, an AR over any of the other weapons.

Exactly. There is a bit of a bias in the results but, nonetheless, it is an interesting statistic.

I've made this argument so many times, so I'll shorten it for you. The Mass Driver will not get "nerfed". It's functioning perfectly as intended.

I've made this argument so many times, so I'll shorten it for you. The Mass Driver will not get "nerfed". It's functioning perfectly as intended.

Every game mechanic should have its own strengths, weaknesses, and respective niche on the battlefield that they excel at to counter eachother. If one thing overpowers everything else, what's to point of having variety outside of novelty?

Personally, with respect, I think this is wildly optimistic.

Diversity.

Imagine a hypothetical battle between two equally-skilled squads, both employing teamwork to optimize the strengths of their respective weapons (snipers providing cover fire, etc.).

Now imagine that one squad is using nothing but ARs, and the other using a mix of weapons. Which squad do you think would come out on top?

ARs DON'T overpower everything on the field. A sniper rifle is still a better alternative for long-distance support, for example.

However, that's not to say that Diversity means all weapons are used equally, either. It just means that all weapons have a place and a purpose, and, right now, most of them do.

Diversity.

Imagine a hypothetical battle between two equally-skilled squads, both employing teamwork to optimize the strengths of their respective weapons (snipers providing cover fire, etc.).

Now imagine that one squad is using nothing but ARs, and the other using a mix of weapons. Which squad do you think would come out on top?

ARs DON'T overpower everything on the field. A sniper rifle is still a better alternative for long-distance support, for example.

However, that's not to say that Diversity means all weapons are used equally, either. It just means that all weapons have a place and a purpose, and, right now, most of them do.

This is all good, hypothetically. The reality doesn't support this, at least in pub matches. Even in PC data, the AR is only outused by the HMG, interestingly.

This is all good, hypothetically. The reality doesn't support this, at least in pub matches. Even in PC data, the AR is only outused by the HMG, interestingly.

But I'm only asking if this matters, not why it's the case that AR usage is so out of the norm.

Despite the fact that the AR might be predominantly used, that doesn't necessarily mean there can be no diversity. Even a squad comprised of two ARs, a Mass Driver, an HMG, a Shotgun, and a Sniper displays depth and diversity, even though there are more ARs than any other weapon.

Most doesn't cut it when 1 or 2 weapons are more effective that the 10 others by comparison.

More effective at what, sniping? CQC? AV?

By the way, I think ARs offer a lot of variety within themselves. Nobody compares the Scrambler Rifle and the Assault Scrambler Rifle, but for some reason the AR and the TAR are the same thing in people's mind. And then there's the Burst and the Breach AR too.

Right now the stock AR is a tiny bit too good, but otherwise I'm quite happy with the diversity in the game. You just never know what kind of loadout is going to pop around the corner.

What weaknesses does the AR have compared to other weapons?

Which weapon?

I'd say no, it doesn't. Remembering that other weapons excel situationally yet tend to suffer greatly outside of specialty and considering how frequently a frontliner may find themselves outside of that specialty, it's fair for a general purpose weapon to find a home in the hands of a large portion of the player base.

Diversity.

Imagine a hypothetical battle between two equally-skilled squads, both employing teamwork to optimize the strengths of their respective weapons (snipers providing cover fire, etc.).

Now imagine that one squad is using nothing but ARs, and the other using a mix of weapons. Which squad do you think would come out on top?

ARs DON'T overpower everything on the field. A sniper rifle is still a better alternative for long-distance support, for example.

However, that's not to say that Diversity means all weapons are used equally, either. It just means that all weapons have a place and a purpose, and, right now, most of them do.

Which weapon?

Surprise me

Surprise me

- shotgun can OHKO with a wider reticle at close range.

- sniper rifle, forge gun, laser rifle have obvious range advantage.

- CFLP and mass drivers do increased damage to armor

- nova knives can OHKO without giving opponent chance to react.

- scrambler rifle offers ability to charge for high alpha headshots.

- mass drivers are better at assist farming / lolareadenial

All those weapons suck, even in their own niches, the AR might not be the best at anything, but it certainly is second best, and definitely not a true "jack of all trades, master of none" weapon, it simply isn't average enough for that.

Oh, but this fine because they don't have the range of snipers

have said before...

think in terms of RL military (shut up, i know it's a game)

... it's built around everyone being able to use a standard weapon (AK-47, M16, w/e). this is your baseline.

... everything else in the military's inventory is specialized and brings certain advantages/disadvantages compared to that baseline. so in a sense, the predominance of ARs makes some sort of sense - everyone is playing average joe infantry guy because it's what they are able to play best.

having said baseline doesn't necessarily hurt anything in this game.

diversity? is not a goal in itself. the goal is to make sure that specializing has proper advantages as well as disadvantages and then everyone can play within their playstyle. long range, close range, or mid range ... using a specialized weapon to leverage its advantages and compensate for disadvantages requires additional time commitment, tactical awareness, ... whatever. not even sure what my point was now.

in conclusion: AR's fine, other weapons are ok. except for CFLP. nerf that ****.

*busts out CCP's nerf hammer* *nerfs MDs again*

Surprise!

I believe it DOES matter, in that (tactically-speaking and in spite of what you see in pub matches, or which weapon is most used) a more diverse team, working together and playing to their strengths, will have an advantage over one that is not diverse, if only because they would be better equipped to deal with a wider variety if situations (sniping in open terrain, CQ weapons in CQC, for example), and respond more effectively against a wider variety of enemy tactics.

The "general purpose" AR squad can still be effective, and might win some battles, but the more diverse team is more likely to win the war, IMO.

All those weapons suck, even in their own niches, the AR might not be the best at anything, but it certainly is second best at everything, and definitely not a true "jack of all trades, master of none" weapon, it simply isn't average enough for that.

Oh, but this fine because they don't have the range of snipers and can't OHKO

This argument, IMHO doesn't really hold water though. Unlike the real military forces of the world, CCP designs each and every weapon to be a part of the game. It takes time to design them. They wouldn't spend this time if they weren't meant to be useful.

sniper rifles, forge guns, shotguns and... CFLP suck?

It's sort of my point. Useful does not have to mean abundant. Niche does not mean useless. Popular does not mean OP. And rarely seen can sometimes only mean people haven't explored all of the options yet. Forge guns and drop uplinks (modules being relevant to tangential discussion as well) have shown their true worth with the advent of PC, for example.

the AR is the obvious first choice to get down to battle.
the problem i see affecting diversity is to have to go to the marketplace to check selection and then have to spend SP on a weapon that won't suit my style just to try it out plot thickens ..

Okay, okay, snipers and FGS are fine, Shotguns, had their range shortened too much, but are still "usable", CFLP have a confirmed nerf hammer coming in.

And like the shotgun, ARs would still be usable IF they had a few nerfs, but they won't get nerfed.

Well, I would say that this is partially true. Having said that though, ARs and SRs together amount to more kills than all 10 other weapons combined. Of those two, ARs and Sniper Rifles, ARs are twice more popular than Sniper Rifles.

To me, this is not good diversity. It makes the game AR 514. It means there's no point in using the other weapons at all really because the times they're useful are so far and between the overwhelmingly useful AR that they have become irrelevant.

Diversity isn't being represented. I find it a problem. Do you?

Definitions of diversity aside (acceptable levels being subjective/opinion-based so w/e), I do not find a problem with a majority of people using ARs, no, and there's not much else for either side to add to this argument at this point lol.

Oh and I forgot ... in CQC or against armor an SMG is boss compared to the AR

While the SMG does beat AR when it comes to armor, the AR has an even bigger advantage when up against shields.

These aren't real numbers, it's just an example.

An AR does 200 dmg to armor, a SMG does 250

That's a 50 point difference in favor of SMGs

Now shields, an AR does 300 to shields, a SMG does 200

That's a 100 point differnce in favor of ARs

I'd use real numbers but don't feel like logging in
Of course, there are those would claim it's a side-arm and should be inferior, so we'll just have to wait for the combat rifle.

Real numbers:

AR +10% shields -10% armor

SMG +10% armor... -5% shields

Real numbers:

AR +10% shields -10% armor

SMG +10% armor... -5% shields

Including their RoF and dmg per shot

Ok.

Duv AR: 37.4 dmg/rnd, 750 rnds/min, 60shots in a mag // 467.5 dps (420.75 armor / 514.25 shield)

SixKin SMG: 25.3 dmg/rnd, 1000 rnds/min, 80shots in a mag // 421.7 dps (463.87 armor / 379.53 shield)

... Duvolle enjoys a 10.9% advantage in the base dps department (35.5% advantage on shields) over the SMG as well as advantage in range. The SMG has a 10.2% advantage against armor, as well as the advantage in fitting requirements, reload speed, and dual wield potential. With maxed Min Assault bonus, it will also have significantly more damage per clip with no comparable advantage to AR; however the AR's significant advantage at range and shield makes it preferable for non CQC applications...

... but it's decent, as well as the more deadly option paired with flux grenades.

My point just being that other weapons are certainly viable if you take the effort to create the situations in which they excel.

sniper rifles, forge guns, shotguns and... CFLP suck?