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Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1177
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Posted - 2013.07.17 19:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm curious what people think on this subject. Specifically, does a diversity of usable weapons/fits/roles etc matter to you, or are you happy with a game where there's really just one mode of play?
Let me get to the point. As most of you know, I think CCP has a balancing issue going on, and I think it's hurting diversity. Specifically, I'm speaking of the AR and it's use.
A while back I made this thread:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=92678
The only reason I point it out is because this thread contains the data I'm about to speak of.
So, here's my question. If we consider just light/medium frames for a moment. These data break down to 40% kills from ARs. The next closest is Sniper Rifles at about 17%. This means that all other weapons combined account for just over 40% of kills from weapons on light/medium frames.
Now, your opinions will probably vary, but what I get from this:
a) 40% of all light/medium frame characters use the AR as their primary weapon, and the gun is as good as other weapons on average.
b) Less than 40% of users use the AR, but probably still more than the next highest, and the weapon is better/easier than other weapons.
c) More than 40% of light/medium players use the AR and it's less powerful than other weapons of it's class.
To my mind, none of these options are good when it comes to diversity. We have a lot of weapons that are barely represented, and we have one weapon absolutely dominating the entire game. I see this as an issue.
Do the rest of you see this as an issue, or are you good playing a game where the AR is, by far, the most used weapon in the game, and fully 10 of 12 of the available weapons account for less than half of all weapon kills?
Also, if anyone is curious, the numbers get worse not better if we include heavy frames with regard to AR dominance. I'm trying to be fair. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1178
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Posted - 2013.07.17 20:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Spademan wrote:The thing is, unless you drive the AR a mile into the ground, it's always going to be the most used weapon, and maybe it should be. But wait, there's more. An AR is a simple to use weapon, and many will be familiar with it. It's you standard "do all" weapon that doesn't excel in any area. Now, I'm not saying it's perfect as is, but chances are, unless the nerfhammer hits it harder than an LAV hits a heavy, it's probably going to stick as the most used weapon for a while to come, because of it's familiarity and versatility.
I get that it will likely always be the most popular. My question is more about is it too popular, or is it not even important how popular it is/isn't because diversity doesn't matter?
Obviously, I think it's current popularity is too high, and that this is hurting the game by hurting diversity, but I don't ever expect the AR to not be popular.
We have 10 of 12 weapons though, that combined, are only used (to kill) just a little bit more than the single weapon system that is the AR.
Is that a problem to you?
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Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1178
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Posted - 2013.07.17 20:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Compiles 4 skirmish games worth of "data"
Implies that CCP don't know **** 'bout their own data, through suggesting that 4 games worth of data counters well over a years worth of gameplay data
Cla..... Others also collected data. The combined kills for pub matches is 850. I agree that CCP has the real data, but they don't seem to want to present it, so I, and others, collected what we could.
I think these data are a decent cross section of pub matches.
You are free to collect your own set and compare. If you do, please post the results. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1178
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 21:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
AKCP Scion Lex wrote:What I see here are a lot of people looking at the 50m target and not seeing the 300m.
First let me say that the idea that dust doesnt favor diversity is off base. I maintain about 20ish fits, for whatever situation I might run into/can think of. The game is intended to be situational. In that sense having all theses options by simply running to the resupply and resuiting is a core mechanic......if you use it. No I dont switch suits every game. Yes, I favor the AR because the AR is a standard weapon.
The idea that the SP system locks you into a role only reflects the fact that the game is still new. Ya if feels like that now, it wont feel like that in a year when you have 20-30m sp or whatever. If you are still locked into a role at that point it is because you chose to do so. Naturally, if you can do a few roles well, you proabably arent as good at any of them as someone who stayed specialized. Yet, you have more options.
This is a core CCP philosophy and isn't going anywhere. Welcome to New Eden. HTFU.
So, I assume you're good then with the AR usage being just a little bit more than the least used 10 out of 12 weapons combined? |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1180
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 22:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cenex Langly wrote:Ruthless Lee wrote:There are a lot of cool-LOOKING weapons in the game. I really like to play around with all the different stuff, and would do so even more than I have, if SP weren't an issue. Unfortunately, none of them seem to be as versatile or easy to use as the AR. Which bums me out, since I find the AR kind of boring. I've been running it on an alt the past few days, though, and it makes everything so much ... easier. It's a shame, really, since the diversity of weapons, suits, etc., is what drew me to this. Now, though, I'm thinking I may just go ahead and skill my main into an AR after all, so that when the inevitable (re)nerf comes to my mass driver, I still have something that is usable... I've made this argument so many times, so I'll shorten it for you. The Mass Driver will not get "nerfed". It's functioning perfectly as intended.
Personally, with respect, I think this is wildly optimistic.
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Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1180
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Posted - 2013.07.17 22:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jaqen Morghalis wrote:Cosgar wrote:Every game mechanic should have its own strengths, weaknesses, and respective niche on the battlefield that they excel at to counter eachother. If one thing overpowers everything else, what's to point of having variety outside of novelty? Diversity. Imagine a hypothetical battle between two equally-skilled squads, both employing teamwork to optimize the strengths of their respective weapons (snipers providing cover fire, etc.). Now imagine that one squad is using nothing but ARs, and the other using a mix of weapons. Which squad do you think would come out on top? ARs DON'T overpower everything on the field. A sniper rifle is still a better alternative for long-distance support, for example. However, that's not to say that Diversity means all weapons are used equally, either. It just means that all weapons have a place and a purpose, and, right now, most of them do.
This is all good, hypothetically. The reality doesn't support this, at least in pub matches. Even in PC data, the AR is only outused by the HMG, interestingly. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1180
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 22:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jaqen Morghalis wrote:
Despite the fact that the AR might be predominantly used, that doesn't necessarily mean there can be no diversity. Even a squad comprised of two ARs, a Mass Driver, an HMG, a Shotgun, and a Sniper displays depth and diversity, even though there are more ARs than any other weapon.
What I'm saying is that while there can be diversity, there currently isn't. That's what I mean by reality vs a hypothetical.
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Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1181
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Posted - 2013.07.17 23:15:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rogatien Merc wrote:have said before...
think in terms of RL military (shut up, i know it's a game)
... it's built around everyone being able to use a standard weapon (AK-47, M16, w/e). this is your baseline.
... everything else in the military's inventory is specialized and brings certain advantages/disadvantages compared to that baseline. so in a sense, the predominance of ARs makes some sort of sense - everyone is playing average joe infantry guy because it's what they are able to play best.
having said baseline doesn't necessarily hurt anything in this game.
diversity? is not a goal in itself. the goal is to make sure that specializing has proper advantages as well as disadvantages and then everyone can play within their playstyle. long range, close range, or mid range ... using a specialized weapon to leverage its advantages and compensate for disadvantages requires additional time commitment, tactical awareness, ... whatever. not even sure what my point was now.
in conclusion: AR's fine, other weapons are ok. except for CFLP. nerf that ****.
This argument, IMHO doesn't really hold water though. Unlike the real military forces of the world, CCP designs each and every weapon to be a part of the game. it takes time to design them. They wouldn't spend this time if they weren't meant to be useful.
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Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1182
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Posted - 2013.07.17 23:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
Rogatien Merc wrote:Buster Friently wrote:Rogatien Merc wrote:have said before...
think in terms of RL military (shut up, i know it's a game)
... it's built around everyone being able to use a standard weapon (AK-47, M16, w/e). this is your baseline.
... everything else in the military's inventory is specialized and brings certain advantages/disadvantages compared to that baseline. so in a sense, the predominance of ARs makes some sort of sense - everyone is playing average joe infantry guy because it's what they are able to play best.
having said baseline doesn't necessarily hurt anything in this game.
diversity? is not a goal in itself. the goal is to make sure that specializing has proper advantages as well as disadvantages and then everyone can play within their playstyle. long range, close range, or mid range ... using a specialized weapon to leverage its advantages and compensate for disadvantages requires additional time commitment, tactical awareness, ... whatever. not even sure what my point was now.
in conclusion: AR's fine, other weapons are ok. except for CFLP. nerf that ****. This argument, IMHO doesn't really hold water though. Unlike the real military forces of the world, CCP designs each and every weapon to be a part of the game. It takes time to design them. They wouldn't spend this time if they weren't meant to be useful. It's sort of my point. Useful does not have to mean abundant. Niche does not mean useless. Popular does not mean OP. And rarely seen can sometimes only mean people haven't explored all of the options yet. Forge guns and drop uplinks (modules being relevant to tangential discussion as well) have shown their true worth with the advent of PC, for example.
Well, I would say that this is partially true. Having said that though, ARs and SRs together amount to more kills than all 10 other weapons combined. Of those two, ARs and Sniper Rifles, ARs are twice more popular than Sniper Rifles.
To me, this is not good diversity. It makes the game AR 514. It means there's no point in using the other weapons at all really because the times they're useful are so far and between the overwhelmingly useful AR that they have become irrelevant.
Diversity isn't being represented. I find it a problem. Do you?
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Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1183
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Posted - 2013.07.17 23:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
Rogatien Merc wrote:Buster Friently wrote:Rogatien Merc wrote:Buster Friently wrote:Rogatien Merc wrote:have said before...
think in terms of RL military (shut up, i know it's a game)
... it's built around everyone being able to use a standard weapon (AK-47, M16, w/e). this is your baseline.
... everything else in the military's inventory is specialized and brings certain advantages/disadvantages compared to that baseline. so in a sense, the predominance of ARs makes some sort of sense - everyone is playing average joe infantry guy because it's what they are able to play best.
having said baseline doesn't necessarily hurt anything in this game.
diversity? is not a goal in itself. the goal is to make sure that specializing has proper advantages as well as disadvantages and then everyone can play within their playstyle. long range, close range, or mid range ... using a specialized weapon to leverage its advantages and compensate for disadvantages requires additional time commitment, tactical awareness, ... whatever. not even sure what my point was now.
in conclusion: AR's fine, other weapons are ok. except for CFLP. nerf that ****. This argument, IMHO doesn't really hold water though. Unlike the real military forces of the world, CCP designs each and every weapon to be a part of the game. It takes time to design them. They wouldn't spend this time if they weren't meant to be useful. It's sort of my point. Useful does not have to mean abundant. Niche does not mean useless. Popular does not mean OP. And rarely seen can sometimes only mean people haven't explored all of the options yet. Forge guns and drop uplinks (modules being relevant to tangential discussion as well) have shown their true worth with the advent of PC, for example. Well, I would say that this is partially true. Having said that though, ARs and SRs together amount to more kills than all 10 other weapons combined. Of those two, ARs and Sniper Rifles, ARs are twice more popular than Sniper Rifles. To me, this is not good diversity. It makes the game AR 514. It means there's no point in using the other weapons at all really because the times they're useful are so far and between the overwhelmingly useful AR that they have become irrelevant. Diversity isn't being represented. I find it a problem. Do you? Definitions of diversity aside (acceptable levels being subjective/opinion-based so w/e), I do not find a problem with a majority of people using ARs, no, and there's not much else for either side to add to this argument at this point lol.
Thanks. I'm not trying to argue. I'm trying to ask a question, which you finally answered.
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Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1190
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Posted - 2013.07.18 18:27:00 -
[11] - Quote
Rogatien Merc wrote:Sloth9230 wrote:Rogatien Merc wrote:Sloth9230 wrote:Rogatien Merc wrote:
Oh and I forgot ... in CQC or against armor an SMG is boss compared to the AR
While the SMG does beat AR when it comes to armor, the AR has an even bigger advantage when up against shields. These aren't real numbers, it's just an example. An AR does 200 dmg to armor, a SMG does 250 That's a 50 point difference in favor of SMGs Now shields, an AR does 300 to shields, a SMG does 200 That's a 100 point differnce in favor of ARs I'd use real numbers but don't feel like logging in Of course, there are those would claim it's a side-arm and should be inferior, so we'll just have to wait for the combat rifle. Real numbers: AR +10% shields -10% armor SMG +10% armor... -5% shields Including their RoF and dmg per shot Ok. Duv AR: 37.4 dmg/rnd, 750 rnds/min, 60shots in a mag // 467.5 dps (420.75 armor / 514.25 shield) SixKin SMG: 25.3 dmg/rnd, 1000 rnds/min, 80shots in a mag // 421.7 dps (463.87 armor / 379.53 shield) ... Duvolle enjoys a 10.9% advantage in the base dps department (35.5% advantage on shields) over the SMG as well as advantage in range. The SMG has a 10.2% advantage against armor, as well as the advantage in fitting requirements, reload speed, and dual wield potential. With maxed Min Assault bonus, it will also have significantly more damage per clip with no comparable advantage to AR; however the AR's significant advantage at range and shield makes it preferable for non CQC applications... ... but it's decent, as well as the more deadly option paired with flux grenades. My point just being that other weapons are certainly viable if you take the effort to create the situations in which they excel.
Actually, you've pretty much just proved why the AR is the only weapon that really matters.
The SMG, just barely exceeds the AR in the CQC role to which it should excel.
This is the problem. The AR should be a generalist weapon, not barely beaten by other weapons that are clearly niche weapons like the SMG. Granted, we are talking about light vs sidearm, but honestly, the situation is actually worse if you compare the AR to anything but the SMG. Even still the AR is so marginally close to the performance of the SMG to make using the SMG instead of the AR pointless.
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Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1286
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Posted - 2013.07.25 21:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
Dust, bringing lack of diversity since 2013. |
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