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Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1177
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 19:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm curious what people think on this subject. Specifically, does a diversity of usable weapons/fits/roles etc matter to you, or are you happy with a game where there's really just one mode of play?
Let me get to the point. As most of you know, I think CCP has a balancing issue going on, and I think it's hurting diversity. Specifically, I'm speaking of the AR and it's use.
A while back I made this thread:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=92678
The only reason I point it out is because this thread contains the data I'm about to speak of.
So, here's my question. If we consider just light/medium frames for a moment. These data break down to 40% kills from ARs. The next closest is Sniper Rifles at about 17%. This means that all other weapons combined account for just over 40% of kills from weapons on light/medium frames.
Now, your opinions will probably vary, but what I get from this:
a) 40% of all light/medium frame characters use the AR as their primary weapon, and the gun is as good as other weapons on average.
b) Less than 40% of users use the AR, but probably still more than the next highest, and the weapon is better/easier than other weapons.
c) More than 40% of light/medium players use the AR and it's less powerful than other weapons of it's class.
To my mind, none of these options are good when it comes to diversity. We have a lot of weapons that are barely represented, and we have one weapon absolutely dominating the entire game. I see this as an issue.
Do the rest of you see this as an issue, or are you good playing a game where the AR is, by far, the most used weapon in the game, and fully 10 of 12 of the available weapons account for less than half of all weapon kills?
Also, if anyone is curious, the numbers get worse not better if we include heavy frames with regard to AR dominance. I'm trying to be fair. |
Lance 2ballzStrong
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
2831
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 19:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
lolno
just skill into cal logi and AR's... you're good to go.... although these days, Flaylock pistol is the flavor of the month, so you might wanna get in on that. |
Dr Stabwounds
Molon Labe. League of Infamy
57
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Posted - 2013.07.17 19:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
I don't think it does really.
I'd be curious to know AR v Others in different games. Pretty sure the AR is the most used in other games and also IRL. It's the most versatile, so it's the most used. |
Admonishment
The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo
0
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Posted - 2013.07.17 19:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
I think it matters, the game will become boring if all you see is the same type of dropsuit and weapon builds all the time. There is a reason for all of this, some dropsuits can do the same as others but with increased armor and shielding but have close if not the same movement of a scout because of the amount of module slots available to them. This can make other fittings inferior. Defeating the purpose of using other fittings entirely. |
hooc order
Deep Space Republic Top Men.
700
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 19:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
Quote:Does Diversity Matter?
It can.
People seem to love the hell out of Team Fortress 2.
Dust is the counter argument. It has classes and no one likes it. |
Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
157
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Posted - 2013.07.17 20:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
By the way, I think ARs offer a lot of variety within themselves. Nobody compares the Scrambler Rifle and the Assault Scrambler Rifle, but for some reason the AR and the TAR are the same thing in people's mind. And then there's the Burst and the Breach AR too.
Right now the stock AR is a tiny bit too good, but otherwise I'm quite happy with the diversity in the game. You just never know what kind of loadout is going to pop around the corner. |
Ruthless Lee
The Eliminators
4
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Posted - 2013.07.17 20:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
There are a lot of cool-LOOKING weapons in the game. I really like to play around with all the different stuff, and would do so even more than I have, if SP weren't an issue. Unfortunately, none of them seem to be as versatile or easy to use as the AR. Which bums me out, since I find the AR kind of boring. I've been running it on an alt the past few days, though, and it makes everything so much ... easier. It's a shame, really, since the diversity of weapons, suits, etc., is what drew me to this. Now, though, I'm thinking I may just go ahead and skill my main into an AR after all, so that when the inevitable (re)nerf comes to my mass driver, I still have something that is usable... |
Beren Hurin
K-A-O-S theory
701
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 20:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
This impacts salvage also. When u get loot from others uniformity helps profit. Diversiy hurts it. Especially since we can't trade. |
Spademan
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
173
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Posted - 2013.07.17 20:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
The thing is, unless you drive the AR a mile into the ground, it's always going to be the most used weapon, and maybe it should be. But wait, there's more. An AR is a simple to use weapon, and many will be familiar with it. It's you standard "do all" weapon that doesn't excel in any area. Now, I'm not saying it's perfect as is, but chances are, unless the nerfhammer hits it harder than an LAV hits a heavy, it's probably going to stick as the most used weapon for a while to come, because of it's familiarity and versatility. |
PAs Capone
Bullet Cluster
119
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 20:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
Speaking from a real world situation, there is always a "standard issue" weapon/class of soldiers. If you think of the AR users as the enlisted and alternate classes as the specialists and situational soldiers.
Unfortunately the matchmaking for pub games is a little off right now so even if you have a team that is formed with synergy and has a few bases covered, you can still be placed into a battle where it doesn't matter how well synergized your squad is because there are more organized squads on one side than the other.
This leads to a largely dysfunctional style of gameplay available. For there to be diversity, there needs to be synergy, for there to be synergy there needs to be reason. The reason can be provided with additional game types. Like a battle that only lets you into the battle based on your squad size, I.E. a battle where only 16 man teams can join (think old corp battles), 6 man teams only (this would lead to having "balanced" teams in an instant battle where each side has an equal amount of organized squads), and what we have now (instant battles, FW, etc...)
In short, Diversity leads to depth of gameplay. The questions are: How do you want to play? And, What "tools" will CCP provide to us to be able to allow us to play our way?
EDIT: Yes Diversity in this game is important, and it does matter in this game to me. |
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Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1178
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 20:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Spademan wrote:The thing is, unless you drive the AR a mile into the ground, it's always going to be the most used weapon, and maybe it should be. But wait, there's more. An AR is a simple to use weapon, and many will be familiar with it. It's you standard "do all" weapon that doesn't excel in any area. Now, I'm not saying it's perfect as is, but chances are, unless the nerfhammer hits it harder than an LAV hits a heavy, it's probably going to stick as the most used weapon for a while to come, because of it's familiarity and versatility.
I get that it will likely always be the most popular. My question is more about is it too popular, or is it not even important how popular it is/isn't because diversity doesn't matter?
Obviously, I think it's current popularity is too high, and that this is hurting the game by hurting diversity, but I don't ever expect the AR to not be popular.
We have 10 of 12 weapons though, that combined, are only used (to kill) just a little bit more than the single weapon system that is the AR.
Is that a problem to you?
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Spademan
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
173
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 20:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Spademan wrote:The thing is, unless you drive the AR a mile into the ground, it's always going to be the most used weapon, and maybe it should be. But wait, there's more. An AR is a simple to use weapon, and many will be familiar with it. It's you standard "do all" weapon that doesn't excel in any area. Now, I'm not saying it's perfect as is, but chances are, unless the nerfhammer hits it harder than an LAV hits a heavy, it's probably going to stick as the most used weapon for a while to come, because of it's familiarity and versatility. I get that it will likely always be the most popular. My question is more about is it too popular, or is it not even important how popular it is/isn't because diversity doesn't matter? Obviously, I think it's current popularity is too high, and that this is hurting the game by hurting diversity, but I don't ever expect the AR to not be popular. We have 10 of 12 weapons though, that combined, are only used (to kill) just a little bit more than the single weapon system that is the AR. Is that a problem to you?
Fair enough, yeah, I'd say the AR is a tad over the expected usage of it, although, I must say, I fear that if the flaylock is brought into line, then many will return to the AR, spiking it's numbers once again.
Straight answer: Diversity is key to a game like this, more needs to be done to encourage experimentation, not punish it. |
Severance Pay
Krullefor Organization Minmatar Republic
738
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 20:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
If you try to be diverse, people will call whatever you are using OP. Disregard if you use caldari assault and AR |
Ruthless Lee
The Eliminators
5
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Posted - 2013.07.17 20:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
Spademan wrote:Buster Friently wrote:Spademan wrote:The thing is, unless you drive the AR a mile into the ground, it's always going to be the most used weapon, and maybe it should be. But wait, there's more. An AR is a simple to use weapon, and many will be familiar with it. It's you standard "do all" weapon that doesn't excel in any area. Now, I'm not saying it's perfect as is, but chances are, unless the nerfhammer hits it harder than an LAV hits a heavy, it's probably going to stick as the most used weapon for a while to come, because of it's familiarity and versatility. I get that it will likely always be the most popular. My question is more about is it too popular, or is it not even important how popular it is/isn't because diversity doesn't matter? Obviously, I think it's current popularity is too high, and that this is hurting the game by hurting diversity, but I don't ever expect the AR to not be popular. We have 10 of 12 weapons though, that combined, are only used (to kill) just a little bit more than the single weapon system that is the AR. Is that a problem to you? Fair enough, yeah, I'd say the AR is a tad over the expected usage of it, although, I must say, I fear that if the flaylock is brought into line, then many will return to the AR, spiking it's numbers once again. Straight answer: Diversity is key to a game like this, more needs to be done to encourage experimentation, not punish it.
This game sort of discourages experimentation, though ... the SP cap, the SP trees/sinks, and the fact that everyone wrecks you with GEKs and Duvolles the second you step out of academy ... sort of leads you right to the AR tree, I think.
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DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
5257
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 20:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
Compiles 4 skirmish games worth of "data"
Implies that CCP don't know **** 'bout their own data, through suggesting that 4 games worth of data counters well over a years worth of gameplay data
Cla.....
Oh, and to be clear, I still think the AR needs some love in the 'needs difficulty to excel' category, but it's honestly not that far off. Very minute changes have quite resounding effects, and when you have a player base this small, and many of them enjoy / prefer the Assault Rifle for various reasons....when you just one day say hey, your weapon sucks (and this has happened across the board to many things in the game over just the past year or so that I've been here)...when you do that....and your game is already suffering in terms of general public opinion (or lack there of)...you're going to take a serious dip in player base activity and sales, and you may not recover from that hit for quite a while)
As an Anti AR Crusader in the before time, I can safely say that the AR is pretty damn close to where it needs to be. Maybe a little more sway while moving (****, I don't even know if it DOES sway when you move, I just shoot ****), plus some kind of overheat / jam mechanic if you decide to go full auto too often.
Your "data" is both preposterous and presumptuous, and I bid thee good day |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1178
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 20:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Compiles 4 skirmish games worth of "data"
Implies that CCP don't know **** 'bout their own data, through suggesting that 4 games worth of data counters well over a years worth of gameplay data
Cla..... Others also collected data. The combined kills for pub matches is 850. I agree that CCP has the real data, but they don't seem to want to present it, so I, and others, collected what we could.
I think these data are a decent cross section of pub matches.
You are free to collect your own set and compare. If you do, please post the results. |
AKCP Scion Lex
ALASKA CORP.
37
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 20:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
What I see here are a lot of people looking at the 50m target and not seeing the 300m.
First let me say that the idea that dust doesnt favor diversity is off base. I maintain about 20ish fits, for whatever situation I might run into/can think of. The game is intended to be situational. In that sense having all theses options by simply running to the resupply and resuiting is a core mechanic......if you use it. No I dont switch suits every game. Yes, I favor the AR because the AR is a standard weapon.
The idea that the SP system locks you into a role only reflects the fact that the game is still new. Ya if feels like that now, it wont feel like that in a year when you have 20-30m sp or whatever. If you are still locked into a role at that point it is because you chose to do so. Naturally, if you can do a few roles well, you proabably arent as good at any of them as someone who stayed specialized. Yet, you have more options.
This is a core CCP philosophy and isn't going anywhere. Welcome to New Eden. HTFU. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1178
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 21:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
AKCP Scion Lex wrote:What I see here are a lot of people looking at the 50m target and not seeing the 300m.
First let me say that the idea that dust doesnt favor diversity is off base. I maintain about 20ish fits, for whatever situation I might run into/can think of. The game is intended to be situational. In that sense having all theses options by simply running to the resupply and resuiting is a core mechanic......if you use it. No I dont switch suits every game. Yes, I favor the AR because the AR is a standard weapon.
The idea that the SP system locks you into a role only reflects the fact that the game is still new. Ya if feels like that now, it wont feel like that in a year when you have 20-30m sp or whatever. If you are still locked into a role at that point it is because you chose to do so. Naturally, if you can do a few roles well, you proabably arent as good at any of them as someone who stayed specialized. Yet, you have more options.
This is a core CCP philosophy and isn't going anywhere. Welcome to New Eden. HTFU.
So, I assume you're good then with the AR usage being just a little bit more than the least used 10 out of 12 weapons combined? |
AKCP Scion Lex
ALASKA CORP.
37
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 21:07:00 -
[19] - Quote
Yes I am fine with it. This game isn't done. There is a long way to go and as the player base develop so will the tactics and weapon choices they make. I think this is nothing more than the growing pains of a new game. |
Daxxis KANNAH
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
212
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 21:15:00 -
[20] - Quote
AKCP Scion Lex wrote: This is a core CCP philosophy and isn't going anywhere. Welcome to New Eden. HTFU.
No its QQ like a b!tch until CCP grants your wish then run back to thinking you run things
Lets use weapons at range and not rush in, lets use re's to bait the flaylock and contact grenade rushers, lets play more careful - Adapt or Die
No - lets QQ til CCP nerfs another weapon. Good
Its back to run and gun, others dont like it "go back to insert fps insult"
Mad skills baby |
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J-Lewis
Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation
211
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Posted - 2013.07.17 21:19:00 -
[21] - Quote
There aren't really that many alternatives that perform similarly to the AR yet. But even when there are, there's a very important reason why the Gallente AR is going to remain the most used:
Remember how 2/4 of starter suits -- the 2 most used at that -- of EVERY SINGLE race use the Gallente AR?
Well, the weapon you start the game with is going to be the one you're the most familiar with, so it stands to reason that many decide to stick with it.
Once starter fits become 100% racial, we will see much lower use of the Gallente AR as old players leave and new players enter, freshly armed with racial rifles, pistols, and grenades.
That's all I can really deduce about it. |
Daxxis KANNAH
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
212
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 21:22:00 -
[22] - Quote
AKCP Scion Lex wrote:Yes I am fine with it. This game isn't done. There is a long way to go and as the player base develop so will the tactics and weapon choices they make. I think this is nothing more than the growing pains of a new game.
But let me add that the AR will probably always be dominate. Just like the standard combat rifles in real life. Assualt rifles are the first and most commonly use weapon for all the obvious reasons. As you develop your skill, perferences and a team your weapon choice will tend to change. Expecting the AR to NOT do most of the killing...especially this early in the game, isnt reasonable.
Lets also remember the game is official and the player base is dwindling. We have to hope it will climb and the game will progress.
Also nothing is truly wrong with the AR, its just people who choose not to use them want their weapons to be "kings" in their niches as well. Buster however has gone a bit overboard due to CCP's stance to continue to cater for that one demographic.
The AR does need a little bit of work though. Real recoil and drop sharp shooter - I use a no skill Exile AR and have no issue aiming down sights and not missing. With SS and better accuracy its obvious the guns are just bullet hoses but many want people to think its a skill weapon. |
AKCP Scion Lex
ALASKA CORP.
37
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 21:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
Daxxis KANNAH wrote:AKCP Scion Lex wrote: This is a core CCP philosophy and isn't going anywhere. Welcome to New Eden. HTFU.
No its QQ like a b!tch until CCP grants your wish then run back to thinking you run things Lets use weapons at range and not rush in, lets use re's to bait the flaylock and contact grenade rushers, lets play more careful - Adapt or Die No - lets QQ til CCP nerfs another weapon. Good Its back to run and gun, others dont like it "go back to insert fps insult" Mad skills baby
.....So why quote me then? lol |
Daxxis KANNAH
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
212
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 21:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
AKCP Scion Lex wrote:Daxxis KANNAH wrote:AKCP Scion Lex wrote: This is a core CCP philosophy and isn't going anywhere. Welcome to New Eden. HTFU.
No its QQ like a b!tch until CCP grants your wish then run back to thinking you run things Lets use weapons at range and not rush in, lets use re's to bait the flaylock and contact grenade rushers, lets play more careful - Adapt or Die No - lets QQ til CCP nerfs another weapon. Good Its back to run and gun, others dont like it "go back to insert fps insult" Mad skills baby .....So why quote me then? lol
Because obviously your fake mantra given to you by this oh so great developer doesnt hold any water or are you happy being deluded. |
Jaqen Morghalis
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
146
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 21:28:00 -
[25] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Compiles 4 skirmish games worth of "data"
Implies that CCP don't know **** 'bout their own data, through suggesting that 4 games worth of data counters well over a years worth of gameplay data
Cla..... Others also collected data. The combined kills for pub matches is 850. I agree that CCP has the real data, but they don't seem to want to present it, so I, and others, collected what we could. I think these data are a decent cross section of pub matches. You are free to collect your own set and compare. If you do, please post the results.
There's no need for CCP to present the real data. I'm sure they're just as capable (if not moreso) of mathing the numbers together as well as any of us are, and probably more accurately, and (I would hope) with less bias.
Besides, most of the other weapons are "niche" weapons, that excell in very specific circumstances or for a specific purpose, while the AR is more of a "general-use" weapon. It only stands to reason that you'd see proportionately more of them on the battlefield.
It's generally always been this way for most fps games. |
AKCP Scion Lex
ALASKA CORP.
38
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Posted - 2013.07.17 21:30:00 -
[26] - Quote
Daxxis KANNAH wrote:AKCP Scion Lex wrote:Daxxis KANNAH wrote:AKCP Scion Lex wrote: This is a core CCP philosophy and isn't going anywhere. Welcome to New Eden. HTFU.
No its QQ like a b!tch until CCP grants your wish then run back to thinking you run things Lets use weapons at range and not rush in, lets use re's to bait the flaylock and contact grenade rushers, lets play more careful - Adapt or Die No - lets QQ til CCP nerfs another weapon. Good Its back to run and gun, others dont like it "go back to insert fps insult" Mad skills baby .....So why quote me then? lol Because obviously your fake mantra given to you by this oh so great developer doesnt hold any water or are you happy being deluded.
What? That doesn't even make sense. You clearly need to work on your trolling skills rofl.
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Promethius Franklin
DUST University Ivy League
54
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 21:30:00 -
[27] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:So, I assume you're good then with the AR usage being just a little bit more than the least used 10 out of 12 weapons combined? Why not? For a subset of players a full auto, AR like weapon will be a go to. As far as comparisons to the assault SR, I'd like to see your data probed deeper.
How many of those were militia, thus possibly indicating a starter fit? Also how many are BPO rifles (toxin, dren, exile, etc)? How many were less that the nearest direct comparison, the assault scrambler rifle in isk cost?
Unless the factors like starting weapons, BPO's and the lack of alternatives are addressed we won't see a change likely. These keep the AR strong in usage despite claims of performance inequalities. |
Killar-12
Greatness Achieved Through Training EoN.
197
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Posted - 2013.07.17 21:34:00 -
[28] - Quote
Rename the AR once other variants come out make it the Blaster Rifle so there is nothing called the AR which will make the majority of new players think before going "Uhhhh.... me be scrub, me need assault rifle!" they won't see an assault rifle then they'll be more likely to choose a more interesting variant. |
J-Lewis
Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation
211
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 21:42:00 -
[29] - Quote
Killar-12 wrote:Rename the AR once other variants come out make it the Blaster Rifle so there is nothing called the AR which will make the majority of new players think before going "Uhhhh.... me be scrub, me need assault rifle!" they won't see an assault rifle then they'll be more likely to choose a more interesting variant. I think the community voted for "Electron Rifle" or something along those lines once upon a time... |
Jaqen Morghalis
Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance
147
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 21:42:00 -
[30] - Quote
Also remember that two of the four basic starter fits come stocked with an unlimited supply of free ARs, while the other two are the Sniper and AV fits
The fact that anyone running a free suit to save ISK is probably using an AR is bound to significantly skew your data in it's favor. |
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