I've been doing some thinking about sidearms lately, and I realized something about why people complain abut flaylocks.
I've seen similar complaints in every online game I can think of.

It deals burst damage

I don't mean a 3 shot burst; I mean it deals its full damage potential in a very short period of time.

Look at the other prototype sidearms next to the core flaylock, aside from nova knives- they don't deal as much damage as a flaylock within the first 2 seconds (unless it's a scrambler headshot), but deal more damage per clip.
While the other weapons are potentially more dangerous, the flaylock just seems more powerful (and scarier) because it deals its clip worth of damage most quickly.

So, how do you counter burst tactics?
Well, coming from my experience in dealing with them in other games: teamwork. As soon as those first 3 shots are done, the flaylock user is reloading and the buddies of whoever they killed are stomping on them. If they back off to cover when they reload, well, that's just tactics.

Admittedly, the flaylock is one of the more unique burst weapons/classes I've seen in that it also deals AOE damage.
Not saying it's necessarily overpowered, but if CCP does feel the need to nerf it, I think slowing down its reload speed is exactly what would work best.


TL;DR: flaylocks aren't all that powerful- they just scare the **** out of you because they go through their clip so quickly.

the problem is the range. some d-bag can sit on top of a building and drop splash damage on guys 40 feet down. it's foolish, and needs to be fixed.

the problem is the range. some d-bag can sit on top of a building and drop splash damage on guys 40 feet down. it's foolish, and needs to be fixed.

I've been doing some thinking about sidearms lately, and I realized something about why people complain abut flaylocks.
I've seen similar complaints in every online game I can think of.

It deals burst damage

I don't mean a 3 shot burst; I mean it deals its full damage potential in a very short period of time.

Look at the other prototype sidearms next to the core flaylock, aside from nova knives- they don't deal as much damage as a flaylock within the first 2 seconds (unless it's a scrambler headshot), but deal more damage per clip.
While the other weapons are potentially more dangerous, the flaylock just seems more powerful (and scarier) because it deals its clip worth of damage most quickly.

So, how do you counter burst tactics?
Well, coming from my experience in dealing with them in other games: teamwork. As soon as those first 3 shots are done, the flaylock user is reloading and the buddies of whoever they killed are stomping on them. If they back off to cover when they reload, well, that's just tactics.

Admittedly, the flaylock is one of the more unique burst weapons/classes I've seen in that it also deals AOE damage.
Not saying it's necessarily overpowered, but if CCP does feel the need to nerf it, I think slowing down its reload speed is exactly what would work best.


TL;DR: flaylocks aren't all that powerful- they just scare the **** out of you because they go through their clip so quickly.

the problem is the range. some d-bag can sit on top of a building and drop splash damage on guys 40 feet down. it's foolish, and needs to be fixed.

Like I said- it's called tactics.

Someone with an AR can sit on top of a building and spray at guys 40 meters down
Someone with a mass driver can sit on top of a building and drop splash on guys 40 meters down
Someone with a sniper rifle can sit on top of a building and snipe guys 40 meters down
Someone with a laser rifle can sit on top of a building and spray at guys 40 meters down
Someone with a forge gun can sit on top of a building and drop splash on guys 40 meters down

Light Weapon
Light Weapon
Light Weapon
Light Weapon
Heavy Weapon


Sidearm?

Light Weapon
Light Weapon
Light Weapon
Light Weapon
Heavy Weapon


Sidearm?

Scrambler pistol works just fine if you can aim. And just like the flaylock, even if your aim is OK, the majority of shots don't result in decent hits at range.

I've been doing some thinking about sidearms lately, and I realized something about why people complain abut flaylocks.
I've seen similar complaints in every online game I can think of.

It deals burst damage

I don't mean a 3 shot burst; I mean it deals its full damage potential in a very short period of time.

Look at the other prototype sidearms next to the core flaylock, aside from nova knives- they don't deal as much damage as a flaylock within the first 2 seconds (unless it's a scrambler headshot), but deal more damage per clip.
While the other weapons are potentially more dangerous, the flaylock just seems more powerful (and scarier) because it deals its clip worth of damage most quickly.

So, how do you counter burst tactics?
Well, coming from my experience in dealing with them in other games: teamwork. As soon as those first 3 shots are done, the flaylock user is reloading and the buddies of whoever they killed are stomping on them. If they back off to cover when they reload, well, that's just tactics.

Admittedly, the flaylock is one of the more unique burst weapons/classes I've seen in that it also deals AOE damage.
Not saying it's necessarily overpowered, but if CCP does feel the need to nerf it, I think slowing down its reload speed is exactly what would work best.


TL;DR: flaylocks aren't all that powerful- they just scare the **** out of you because they go through their clip so quickly.

I don't have it so I can't personally verify that is does, but I've seen people state because numbers are rounded up to the nearest 10th that a Proto Minmatar Assault will get 4 in the clip with a Flaylock. Players also double down with 2 Flaylocks, swapping instead of reloading, and 2 run or more KinCats which makes them incredibly fast. Teamwork doesn't work out so well when Flaylock 2 shots most suits other then proto, and can with enough SP in damage mods and proficiency 2 shot even Proto. At 6 or 8 Flaylock rounds, that's 3 to 4 enemies who can be put done before reloading. DPS is king, and it doesn't matter if it's burst or sustained.

Lowering reload speed is not enough. Flaylock should have some combination of a slower RoF, less splash damage, 2 shots in the clip and a slower reload speed in my opinion.

It's really just the Godlock that's an issue.

2.0 splash with powerful damage on a sidearm = Iceland has some damn good weed.

I actually don't think it's OP. At distance most shots miss just like when I'm using a scrambler pistol. Up close it does more damage than my scrambler pistol (unless I hit the head), but has to reload after only 3 shots while I keep going.

If anything, fitting stats need to be changed slightly to bring it more in line with other sidearms.

One of the problems is that people mostly focus on the core flaylock...yet most of those people haven't really bothered trying the other proto sidearms. They're all really strong...but have their drawbacks.

With the SP, I get more shots and damage against shields...the flaylock rocks against armor but sucks against shields and only has 3 shots...the nova knife wins against anything if it's in striking distance...and the SMG requires less accurate aim while rocking against armor (but sucks against shields).

Most of the complaints are from people who use non-proto suits/mods and then complain about getting slaughtered by a proto gun.

Wait until more people use the scrambler pistol, they're outright scary in the right hands (and out-damage the SR btw).

Wait until more people use the scrambler pistol, they're outright scary in the right hands (and out-damage the SR btw).

To be fair, my head is a much smaller target than the ground near my feet :/

Just get rid of the splash damage.Those small rockets should have only penetrating power to armor.I dont think that they are OP but do we realy need a secondary weapon that has bigger splash damage like a small missile turet?

Finally someone else that understands burst/spike damage. Like the MD, sniper rifle, forge gun, nova knives and shotgun, the Flaylock deals all of its damage at once vs DoT like any full auto or burst fire weapon. Guns in this game deal damage proportionate to their relative clip size and since the flaylock only has 3 shots, (4 on a Minmatar assault) that damage is massive. Also since it's explosive, it has a blast radius too. But even with all these strengths, the flaylock has terrible range and it's clumsy in open, level ground unless you're good at leading shots I rarely die to them because I stay out of CQC range and assume that everyone is carrying a flaylock. The times I do die are because someone is above or gets the drop on me.

What you describe is called "tactics"...and that requires thinking....most aren't willing to strain their brains like that and to actively look for a counter tactic is too much of a challenge

Story time!

I used to play "Star Wars: the Old Republic", as an operative. Operatives were stealth based glass cannons dealing burst damage; they would pop out of nowhere and kill you in no time, but as soon as that happens, all the nearby mobs/enemy players would stomp on them.
The first class to get nerfed after release? Well, operatives of course!

After they were nerfed, they became completely useless. They still opened with very heavy damage, but they could never get a kill against decent players, because the lowered damage gave their enemies time to react and easily kill the operative.

The point? without dealing heavy damage, burst tactics don't kill anything.

Its a good theory, and I bet its true in some games.. but,.

/cough,

But this is Dust, the fine line between weapon OP/ Balance is,

is the core flaylock to easy to use ?

Like I dont care what anyone says, the scrambler pistol is HARD to use, It has burst potential second to SG and it would never be called op.

Its a good theory, and I bet its true in some games.. but,.

/cough,

But this is Dust, the fine line between weapon OP/ Balance is,

is the core flaylock to easy to use ?

Like I dont care what anyone says, the scrambler pistol is HARD to use, It has burst potential second to SG and it would never be called op.

Assault rifles are easy to use
Knives are easy to use once you get in range
SMGs are easy to use
HMGs are easy to use
Shotguns are easy to use once you get in range.

Flaylocks actually take a bit more skill than some other weapons- the rocket moves slowly on a slight arc, so you have to compensate for movement and range. The sight itself also obscures your aim if you're trying to fire on an arc, so it's not really an option.

As for the Core, my scout is one shot dead, my Gal armor tanked is one shot dead, my Min As- is one shot dead.

Its a good theory, and I bet its true in some games.. but,.

/cough,

But this is Dust, the fine line between weapon OP/ Balance is,

is the core flaylock to easy to use ?

Like I dont care what anyone says, the scrambler pistol is HARD to use, It has burst potential second to SG and it would never be called op.

Shotgun in a SCOUT... (since we are talking in Proto level this suit is nuts)

At Proto level, its total eHP is about what most Caldari have for just their shield. My every day Scout has 180/80. Hmmm...260. With that Core Flaylock, insta kill.

As for your (Shotguns are easy), try it as a stealth class. Tell me how easy it is once someone sees you. you got 2 seconds then (Press CTRL to respawn)

20-30m - LoL AR has no chance to kill you in this range with a flaylock (unless the tager is sitting above you on a ledge with cover and only a headshot can make contact)

0-20M- They will be dead beforce 10 rounds leave their weapon. Every weapon gets dominated by the flaylock at this range... including shotguns and nova knives.

Bob's story makes a good point. Including the clip, flaylocks have 23 rounds and a quick reload time. What if the ammo capacity was cut down to 9~12? That would cut down on people making them spam shots all over the place, especially since it eats up nanohives as bad as the MD and grenades.

I think it actually has just as much (potential) shots and the MD. Maybe if, like you said, cut the ammo count, make it devour nanohives, we just might see the weapon removed from SPAM.

On a side note, most games do have that "n00b" weapon that gets them into the feel of the game. Gives them a base play. But slowly lets them know, gotta find a niche play because these kid tactics are wearing thing. Something to spoon feed the nublets with.

Something to give nublets confidence. Make them feel good. If this was that "go to " weapon, there would have to be a decent counter, or at least a way to lessen it's OHK status from it.

In all honestly, I'm not the guy with the authority to say "what what" here, all I can say is that the Core verity has removed me from the face of the planet enough times to get me cusin and wishing foul things on the user.

0-20M- They will be dead beforce 10 rounds leave their weapon. Every weapon gets dominated by the flaylock at this range... including shotguns and nova knives.

There already is a n00b tube in Dust, it just happens to be on 4 wheels.

Assault rifles are easy to use
Knives are easy to use once you get in range
SMGs are easy to use
HMGs are easy to use
Shotguns are easy to use once you get in range.

Flaylocks actually take a bit more skill than some other weapons- the rocket moves slowly on a slight arc, so you have to compensate for movement and range. The sight itself also obscures your aim if you're trying to fire on an arc, so it's not really an option.

TL;DR: flaylocks aren't all that powerful- they just scare the **** out of you because they go through their clip so quickly.

Just for the record, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIJkDmzRK_A

Count how long it takes him to take down opponents with SMGs...it's really not any longer than with flaylocks.

As for the range comparison, yes, at short range many sidearms are better than light weapons...it's one of the reasons many of us focus on them rather than longer range weapons (especially in CQC). My SP slaughters SR users at QCQ....and an SMG user will beat an AR user too.

You can dual wield any sidearm you want (well, knives are kinda stupid to dual wield), in all cases you trade off range for not having to reload as quicly. Dual SMGs are godly too at closer ranges, just like the flaylock. As soon as you're in the open though, you lose unless the opponent is a bad player.

At short range you'll lose to a snort range light weapon user like the shotgun assuming both players have the same level of skill and hp.

Slightly mistaken. I think what you are saying is that people are misidentifying the flaylock's burst damage as being over powered.
What I see, is that the flaylocks burst damage actually IS overpowered.

This video means nothing.

He's killing stationary targets in MLT/STD gear in chromosome. Completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

We're talking kill proto suits in PC within 1-2 seconds at 0-20m with rockets that require no aim whatsoever.

You couldn't do that with an SMG, not consistently.

The Op forgets that the flaylock can be duel weilded because of it's side arm status and has a 4 round clip with minmitar assault bonuses... I have played the flaylock for 3 days now on an alt and every game I have a 60m + kill, and I never dip below 12 kills a game. Every suit except for heavies and shield tanked proto calidari and minimitar suits die in 2 shots withe caladari and minmitar medium suits taking 3 shots and heavies 4. The slash damage allows me to supress the enemy as I move into "easy kill" range.

Compared against the AR

65+m the shot self detinates so it worthless at this range, however AR's are only able to tickle you anyways

50-65m - AR has a slight advantage if they are positioned above you or have cover, however if in open ground it even because the distance requires them to bring up the rail which means they can't dodgn't your shots well. If you are position above them this is an easy kill for the flaylock

30-50m - same as above hoever the AR is slightly better because they don't have to bring up the rail to aim. if flat open ground AR prob has advantage. If ar is on a cliff above u he wins, if flaylock is above its an easy kill.

20-30m - LoL AR has no chance to kill you in this range with a flaylock (unless the tager is sitting above you on a ledge with cover and only a headshot can make contact)

0-20M- They will be dead beforce 10 rounds leave their weapon. Every weapon gets dominated by the flaylock at this range... including shotguns and nova knives.

Lastly against the flaylock your team CANNOT move together as a squad. This weapon has a 2.5 meter splash and 2v1 any kind of hallway style are will be death. 2 flaylocks moving together don't even need to fire a second shot most of the time.

Can we all agree that regular Flaylocks are kinda on track while the Core gives us nightmares? Oh and dont for get the insta pop nades.

( am I seeing a pattern? Things with "Core" in the name get under my skin???)

Can we all agree that regular Flaylocks are kinda on track while the Core gives us nightmares? Oh and dont for get the insta pop nades.

( am I seeing a pattern? Things with "Core" in the name get under my skin???)

Can we all agree that regular Flaylocks are kinda on track while the Core gives us nightmares? Oh and dont for get the insta pop nades.

( am I seeing a pattern? Things with "Core" in the name get under my skin???)

Without its splash damage, the weapon will become totally pointless other than at very close range against stuff that doesn't move.

You're probably right. I use a core focused repair tool, and people run from it all the time like the plague even, when they're down to a sliver of armor.

Simple solutions are usually better.
Either the flaylock pistol is balanced and we are all suffering from some sort of mass delusion, perhaps being manipulated by some unseen force...
OR the gun is both too powerful and costs it's users too little PG.
Crowds can be wrong, but they are often correct. I'd run the math down on you right now, but CCP still hasn't given me a rate of fire to work with. I can say with great certainty that it's burst damage is eye popping/jaw dropping though.

Simple solutions are usually better.
Either the flaylock pistol is balanced and we are all suffering from some sort of mass delusion, perhaps being manipulated by some unseen force...
OR the gun is both too powerful and costs it's users too little PG.
Crowds can be wrong, but they are often correct. I'd run the math down on you right now, but CCP still hasn't given me a rate of fire to work with. I can say with great certainty that it's burst damage is eye popping/jaw dropping though.

Can we all agree that regular Flaylocks are kinda on track while the Core gives us nightmares? Oh and dont for get the insta pop nades.

( am I seeing a pattern? Things with "Core" in the name get under my skin???)

Core is just a name prototype minmatar stuff uses. Just like ishukone for caldari, duvolle for gallente, and carthum for amarr

This is BS, the only flaylock iv used is the 15 AUR one to try them out, and yes I had to hit people with it, I even OHK a few scouts with headshots,

But I had to work for it, its not day dream easy,..

But I never used a corelock so i cant by my rules say its OP. I will say its pretty dam strong in CQC so i hope its not a holiday weapon for ratio padding..

I heard that once or twice. Carthum and Visium ( SP), Or Boundless being Min.

So question is..... EVERY ONE is shield. Minmatar makes weapons that hurt armor. They are in bed with Gallante. Which....are armor. Do I see a future back stab-ulation?

Btw, I never hear in game stuff like "watch out, there's a flaylock above B"- people only warn about things such as knives, REs, MDs, snipers, and etc.

Minmatar fight amarr, which are armor tanks.

The one point I agree with is that fitting stats of the flaylock don't seem totally in line with other sidearms. I disagree with everything else you said for reasons already mentioned.

You can't "balance" a gun based on the number of whine posts on a forum!

I thought they kinda did both. Could armor or shield tank. Kinda stuck in the middle.

Que 80's music

I don't know what game you are playing but i hear "fn Flaylock" in just about every match. Usually 3 to 5 users. All speed tanked.

Mostly I hear screaming over LLAVs. Mostly.

Once in a blue moon I hear screams of "TANK!!!1111" but....usually dead. So much scrap metal.....

What chat are you in? When I'm on team chat, nobody ever says anything. On team chat, I hear coughing, eating, bitching about nonspecific stuff, and background noise, but nothing useful. I'm talking about when I squad up.

I don't know what game you are playing but i hear "fn Flaylock" in just about every match. Usually 3 to 5 users. All speed tanked.

Mostly I hear screaming over LLAVs. Mostly.

Once in a blue moon I hear screams of "TANK!!!1111" but....usually dead. So much scrap metal.....

I'm not saying that we should balance the gun on the number of the whine posts on the forum... I am saying that the whine posts have substance and reason and that a good number of the game's best players either agree with the whine post or employ the core flaylock.
SI and Outer Heaven both use them in abundance (Probably for no reason at all, I bet they just like the name). And I'm not trying to say that they are better than you and that their fitting choices are always correct, but I AM DETECTING A PATTERN.

I'm not saying that we should balance the gun on the number of the whine posts on the forum... I am saying that the whine posts have substance and reason and that a good number of the game's best players either agree with the whine post or employ the core flaylock.
SI and Outer Heaven both use them in abundance (Probably for no reason at all, I bet they just like the name). And I'm not trying to say that they are better than you and that their fitting choices are always correct, but I AM DETECTING A PATTERN.

Ok. i guess start the ask how and what kills us. What are we using (suit, mods, gun) vs this Flaylock user.

Well, I made my post clear, A all ADV scout With 180 shields to 80 armor. Shotty, CRW charge scram. Sometimes a basic MD when I dont want to fight. Just make the target leave me alone.

[
They really don't have substance and reason...mostly because they're whining about a proto gun killing non-proto suits.
.

They really don't have substance and reason...mostly because they're whining about a proto gun killing non-proto suits. It's a good gun in the right hands, especially against non-proto users...but so are the other proto sidearms.

Of course burst damage in good squads works really well...it's the same reason you sniper BS gangs in EVE or some gank squad. But just like in EVE, there are counters and drawbacks. In EVE you often give up tank if you gank fit your ship for burst damage. In Dust, you sacrifice range and the number of shots you can fire before reloading. In both cases, you can use that knowledge as a counter.

If you get hit with a flaylock while playing a scout you're bad at manoeuvering or simply didn't watch where you were going...aka ran into the flaylocker on his terms. You are faster than any other suit, if you can't outmanoeuver a gun with 3 shots, you need to learn to manoeuvre better. Also, ANYTHING that hits your tiny 260hp tank will kill you super quick. An SMG needs to even aim less than any of the other sidearms. A proto SMG would kill you sooooooo quickly too ;)

If it help quantitate my complaint I hav 19 million SP

If you get hit with a flaylock while playing a scout you're bad at manoeuvering or simply didn't watch where you were going...aka ran into the flaylocker on his terms. You are faster than any other suit, if you can't outmanoeuver a gun with 3 shots, you need to learn to manoeuvre better. Also, ANYTHING that hits your tiny 260hp tank will kill you super quick. An SMG needs to even aim less than any of the other sidearms. A proto SMG would kill you sooooooo quickly too ;)

If you get hit with a flaylock while playing a scout you're bad at manoeuvering or simply didn't watch where you were going...aka ran into the flaylocker on his terms. You are faster than any other suit, if you can't outmanoeuver a gun with 3 shots, you need to learn to manoeuvre better. Also, ANYTHING that hits your tiny 260hp tank will kill you super quick. An SMG needs to even aim less than any of the other sidearms. A proto SMG would kill you sooooooo quickly too ;)

Did he actually just suggest that it's easier to kill a scout with an SMG than a Flaylock? .....all you need is the advanced one, lead your shot a little, and never aim above their feet. If they jump, just watch their trajectory. as they come towards the ground, shoot right around where they'll land. Collect 50 or 60 WP.

You basically can't ADS the smg against that scout the whole time, and now that we have hoverboards that just makes it all the more difficult. The flaylock? Why would you bother? Nevermind the Corelock.

I just. I can't. Why did.

It's just that.

THIS!!

If people compared actual DPS figures instead of single shot figures, they'd realise it isn't really OP.

DPS greatly favors the Flaylock, it's only restricted by the small clip so it's damage per clip may be lower.

I don't feel it is just the damage it's the disproportionate fall off from splash damage. Basically it is such a minute difference that people do not aim for a direct hit they only aim for the feet thereby defeating skill. It has a high rate of fire too so you just blow your load right at a guys feet causing insane damage.

A flaylock positioned above Alpha on the map with the rings makes capturing that point impossible. That 2 PG weapon MUST be dealt with personally. No amount of HP or hacking mods or zerging will let you capture that point without going up there and killing that guy first... AND he can do it from CONSIDERABLE range. Having a flaylock in a positon above you is almost certain death.

If you think dancing around like marry popins is gonna save you then you must be a Jedi or something..

THIS!!
If people compared actual DPS figures instead of single shot figures, they'd realise it isn't really OP.

Scrambler pistol works just fine if you can aim. And just like the flaylock, even if your aim is OK, the majority of shots don't result in decent hits at range.

Agreed, but in return I have almost 4 times the amount of shots with my SP compared to the flaylock....so I have enough shots to try and get my headshot.

Flaylock still has the highest DPS over the only window of time that matters. On a dynamic battlefield, the ability to deliver lethal damage in the blink of an eye is more powerful than the ability to deal sustained damage that may not kill at all. Saying the Flaylock is OK because its DPS isn't impressive over 10 or 15 second window is pointless.


Moronic statement. The scrambler pistol fires slower (i think?), requires aim, deals less damage, doesn't splash, is not going to kill people reliably from the top of a building, and isn't going to 2-shot anyone.



4 times? you mean two times? Besides you need multiple headshots anyway, stop trying to equate the two because of clip size.


Lastly, claiming direct hits on the flaylock are the cause of rage instead of the splash damage is absurd. A direct hit is only like 10% more damage than the splash. And while I'm at it, flaylocks also contribute to armor sucking so bad because they'll take out like 300+ armor in one shot.