DUST Search - armor tank > shield tank everytime!... come on ccp,, you fixed what wasn'...

Farsund Solheim wrote:

Still beating this dead horse are we? I would love to see a proper race between a fully tanked Madruger and a fully tanked Gunnlogi and see what the actual outcome would be. If the Madruger were to actually win in said race, then the armor speed penalty to max speed isn't working properly, and needs to be looked into. Also, maybe you Gunnlogi pilots would fair better against armor tankers if every damn one of you i came across didn't equip a Compressed railgun. They overheat with 3 shots, as opposed to 5 shots with the regular railgun.

80GJ Particle Accelerator = 1272.9dmg * 5 = 6364.5 dmg in 10.5 seconds
80GJ Compressed Particle Accelerator = 1591.1dmg * 3 = 4773.3dmg in 7.5 seconds

Caldari speed was nerfed a little this build (and is still faster that an armor tank with anything more than a single 60mm armor plate equipped), but you are now the reigning king of anti-infantry with your shield resistance against explosive damage. Be happy with what you've gotten in the trade-off, and dont be surprised when someone like me comes in and puts a stop to you ripping our infantry to shreds. Otherwise, this forum post should be titled "Rock > Scissors everytime!... Come on CCP,, But scissors against paper works perfect, don't change a thing"

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Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1525	Posted - 2013.06.01 16:22:00 - [31] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: Jason Pearson wrote: EXASTRA INVICTAS wrote: If an armor tanked Rail Gunnlogi could beat a shield tanked rail Gunnlogi, you might have a point. But that's not how it works. It's exactly how it works. My Gunnlogi Railgun fit with 3998 Shields (2x damage mods) and a heavy shield repper is built for combat, I use it for redline and midrange combat, it's a versatile fit due to the repper. I come across Madrugars with around 6000 Armor and a heavy rep, they start pounding me, I have to fall back after they hit me 2-3 times, I rep myself and I'm only at half shields. The armor tank takes 4 shots, reps itself and is back up to full HP. Pretty much why I beat you in that one battle - the balance between armor and shield is ridiculous. I didn't even have to take cover, really. You would get me down to 1000 armor and Id just rep back up in a few seconds. It's BS. I tried so hard, and got so far.. but in the end, it doesn't even matter :(
BL4CKST4R WarRavens 93	Posted - 2013.06.01 16:23:00 - [32] - Quote In chromosome shield tank > armor tank. I think that it is nice that the gallente finally have something that is superior to the caldari.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1526	Posted - 2013.06.01 16:36:00 - [33] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: In chromosome shield tank > armor tank. I think that it is nice that the gallente finally have something that is superior to the caldari. And we demanded Armor Tanks had a buff, but again, instead of just buffing Armor, they nerfed Shields. One of the major things is speed for me, Armor is tankier, shields are weaker but faster, that's the way it seemed, allowing me to pop up and then drive away quickly, to surprise the enemy. Looking at the fight between me and Charlotte, who is no doubt a damn fine Tanker, we were 1v1ing eachother in a Corp Battle, I kept my distance and was using cover as was Charlotte, BUT Charlotte could tank more so I would always have to retreat, could rep back to full health so I had to continually stay hidden and then I finally died as Charlotte moved faster than I had anticipated, I knew I was going to get flanked but not that fast.
slap26 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 676	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:41:00 - [34] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: In chromosome shield tank > armor tank. I think that it is nice that the gallente finally have something that is superior to the caldari. in chromosome, shield=AV armor=AI gallente was the king of killing infantry last build. With the right fit it was possible to kill a shield tank using an armor tank last build. Talk to caeli abou that.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 538	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:56:00 - [35] - Quote slap26 wrote: Armor will beat Shield 100% of the time yup...
slap26 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 677	Posted - 2013.06.03 15:21:00 - [36] - Quote I have to wonder if there are 2 different teams working on the different tanks.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 576	Posted - 2013.06.03 18:40:00 - [37] - Quote slap26 wrote: I have to wonder if there are 2 different teams working on the different tanks. must be, one on shields and the other on armor and they each got different feedback because that's the only way that it makes sense. shields got that HAVs are to strong leading to nerfs while armor got that HAVs are to weak leading to buffs. there is no balance anymore.
slap26 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 680	Posted - 2013.06.03 23:36:00 - [38] - Quote I think the powergrid skill nerf was because it would make armor tanks even stronger with the terrible damage out put we have now.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1588	Posted - 2013.06.03 23:55:00 - [39] - Quote I think the Devs are muddling **** up. Shield Tanking is too strong! - Infantry Player Armor Tanking is too strong! - Vehicle Player. Infantry Devs - Ohshit, playerbase is complaining about Armor tanking, better nerf it. Vehicle Devs - Ohshit, playerbase is complaining about Shield tanking, better nerf it.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 580	Posted - 2013.06.04 00:26:00 - [40] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: I think the Devs are muddling **** up. Shield Tanking is too strong! - Infantry Player Armor Tanking is too strong! - Vehicle Player. Infantry Devs - Ohshit, playerbase is complaining about Armor tanking, better nerf it. Vehicle Devs - Ohshit, playerbase is complaining about Shield tanking, better nerf it. you know this makes sense. the infantry devs change the skills and the PG while the vehicle devs change the cost of turrets and HAVs speeds and only post that turrets are going to cost more.

slap26 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 681	Posted - 2013.06.04 01:36:00 - [41] - Quote Personally they should balance tank vs tank first, and then work on tank vs AV
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 582	Posted - 2013.06.04 07:20:00 - [42] - Quote it was balanced before then they broke it.
Farsund Solheim The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 16	Posted - 2013.06.04 09:47:00 - [43] - Quote Still beating this dead horse are we? I would love to see a proper race between a fully tanked Madruger and a fully tanked Gunnlogi and see what the actual outcome would be. If the Madruger were to actually win in said race, then the armor speed penalty to max speed isn't working properly, and needs to be looked into. Also, maybe you Gunnlogi pilots would fair better against armor tankers if every damn one of you i came across didn't equip a Compressed railgun. They overheat with 3 shots, as opposed to 5 shots with the regular railgun. 80GJ Particle Accelerator = 1272.9dmg * 5 = 6364.5 dmg in 10.5 seconds 80GJ Compressed Particle Accelerator = 1591.1dmg * 3 = 4773.3dmg in 7.5 seconds Caldari speed was nerfed a little this build (and is still faster that an armor tank with anything more than a single 60mm armor plate equipped), but you are now the reigning king of anti-infantry with your shield resistance against explosive damage. Be happy with what you've gotten in the trade-off, and dont be surprised when someone like me comes in and puts a stop to you ripping our infantry to shreds. Otherwise, this forum post should be titled "Rock > Scissors everytime!... Come on CCP,, But scissors against paper works perfect, don't change a thing"
KEROSIINI-TERO Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 405	Posted - 2013.06.04 10:01:00 - [44] - Quote EXASTRA INVICTAS wrote: In this game, armor tanking is kind of like hero tanking in EVE, so I kind of understand why they've made the armor modules a bit more powerful than the shield. We're tanking with the last resort of our HP. . . Not really as beneath shields of shield tanks is just minimal amount of armor. Most of time if your shield gets blown, tank is dead. It's uncommon for shield tanks to live while taken armor damage. Furthermore, what makes that extra armor buffer more useless is the being on fire -mechanic. If shield tank gets below 40-50% armor, it gets on fire and cannot extinguish it itself so it will die (barring any outside help). Armor tanks mostly manage to rep themselves up so if they're killed by fire they are very unlucky getting caught between rep cycles.
Princeps Marcellus Expert Intervention Caldari State 37	Posted - 2013.06.04 10:31:00 - [45] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: EXASTRA INVICTAS wrote: If an armor tanked Rail Gunnlogi could beat a shield tanked rail Gunnlogi, you might have a point. But that's not how it works. It's exactly how it works. My Gunnlogi Railgun fit with 3998 Shields (2x damage mods) and a heavy shield repper is built for combat, I use it for redline and midrange combat, it's a versatile fit due to the repper. I come across Madrugars with around 6000 Armor and a heavy rep, they start pounding me, I have to fall back after they hit me 2-3 times, I rep myself and I'm only at half shields. The armor tank takes 4 shots, reps itself and is back up to full HP. Not to mention that there's no way that you can jump out and heal your tank.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 582	Posted - 2013.06.04 10:55:00 - [46] - Quote Farsund Solheim wrote: Still beating this dead horse are we? I would love to see a proper race between a fully tanked Madruger and a fully tanked Gunnlogi and see what the actual outcome would be. If the Madruger were to actually win in said race, then the armor speed penalty to max speed isn't working properly, and needs to be looked into. Also, maybe you Gunnlogi pilots would fair better against armor tankers if every damn one of you i came across didn't equip a Compressed railgun. They overheat with 3 shots, as opposed to 5 shots with the regular railgun. 80GJ Particle Accelerator = 1272.9dmg * 5 = 6364.5 dmg in 10.5 seconds 80GJ Compressed Particle Accelerator = 1591.1dmg * 3 = 4773.3dmg in 7.5 seconds Caldari speed was nerfed a little this build (and is still faster that an armor tank with anything more than a single 60mm armor plate equipped), but you are now the reigning king of anti-infantry with your shield resistance against explosive damage. Be happy with what you've gotten in the trade-off, and dont be surprised when someone like me comes in and puts a stop to you ripping our infantry to shreds. Otherwise, this forum post should be titled "Rock > Scissors everytime!... Come on CCP,, But scissors against paper works perfect, don't change a thing" you have never ran into me then. btw when a armor rail beats a shield missile there is something wrong because missiles are meant to beat armor but doesn't. paper is OP -scissors
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon DARKSTAR ARMY 143	Posted - 2013.06.04 11:03:00 - [47] - Quote It's funny. Armor tanks beats shield tanks. Shield dropsuits beats armor dropsuits. There will be more variables in the future.
pegasis prime The Shadow Cavalry Mercenaries DARKSTAR ARMY 246	Posted - 2013.06.04 11:06:00 - [48] - Quote This seems to be the order of things Armour blaster beats shield blaster. Shield missile beats armour blaster. Shield rail beats armour blaster. Shield missile beats armour missile Armour rail beats everything There is expeptions to these general rules but they are normaly determind by pilot skill rather than just their tank.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 582	Posted - 2013.06.04 13:13:00 - [49] - Quote pegasis prime wrote: This seems to be the order of things Armour blaster beats shield blaster. Shield missile beats armour blaster. Shield rail beats armour blaster. Shield missile beats armour missile Armour rail beats everything There is expeptions to these general rules but they are normaly determind by pilot skill rather than just their tank. pretty much sums it all up.
Harpyja DUST University Ivy League 76	Posted - 2013.06.04 13:30:00 - [50] - Quote pegasis prime wrote: This seems to be the order of things Armour blaster beats shield blaster. Shield missile beats armour blaster. Shield rail beats armour blaster. Shield missile beats armour missile Armour rail beats everything There is expeptions to these general rules but they are normaly determind by pilot skill rather than just their tank. No, armor blasters beat shield missiles. I fought a corpmate with my missile Gunnlogi against his blaster Madrugar and I lost both times that we engaged. He wasn't even at half armor by the time I was dead, so something is clearly wrong. And we both had best fits possible and near max skills.

Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors Reverberation Project 501	Posted - 2013.06.04 13:38:00 - [51] - Quote pegasis prime wrote: This seems to be the order of things Armour blaster beats shield blaster. Shield missile beats armour blaster. Shield rail beats armour blaster. Shield missile beats armour missile Armour rail beats everything There is expeptions to these general rules but they are normaly determind by pilot skill rather than just their tank. Infantry AV in LAV beats armour rail. My record in Chromosome was killing 2 rail madrugers in 1 match with my heavy LAV w/ cycled turret. Especially when you catch them by themselves in the red line you can slowly circle them while their turret tries to track you.
pegasis prime The Shadow Cavalry Mercenaries DARKSTAR ARMY 246	Posted - 2013.06.04 13:53:00 - [52] - Quote Harpyja wrote: pegasis prime wrote: This seems to be the order of things Armour blaster beats shield blaster. Shield missile beats armour blaster. Shield rail beats armour blaster. Shield missile beats armour missile Armour rail beats everything There is expeptions to these general rules but they are normaly determind by pilot skill rather than just their tank. No, armor blasters beat shield missiles. I fought a corpmate with my missile Gunnlogi against his blaster Madrugar and I lost both times that we engaged. He wasn't even at half armor by the time I was dead, so something is clearly wrong. And we both had best fits possible and near max skills. You must be doing somthing wrong every time I meet a madruger with either my missile gunlogi or falconi its been toast . Use the range in the missiles to your advantage missiles far out range blasters. You have 250m optimum range before enforcer skills come into play.
pegasis prime The Shadow Cavalry Mercenaries DARKSTAR ARMY 246	Posted - 2013.06.04 13:56:00 - [53] - Quote Caldari tanks are medium to long range support tanks , where as galenti tanks are close range killers . If you use each tank to its suggested role then you will do well . Try to overstrech that role and yoy have to be one good pilot.
Harpyja DUST University Ivy League 76	Posted - 2013.06.04 14:01:00 - [54] - Quote pegasis prime wrote: Harpyja wrote: pegasis prime wrote: This seems to be the order of things Armour blaster beats shield blaster. Shield missile beats armour blaster. Shield rail beats armour blaster. Shield missile beats armour missile Armour rail beats everything There is expeptions to these general rules but they are normaly determind by pilot skill rather than just their tank. No, armor blasters beat shield missiles. I fought a corpmate with my missile Gunnlogi against his blaster Madrugar and I lost both times that we engaged. He wasn't even at half armor by the time I was dead, so something is clearly wrong. And we both had best fits possible and near max skills. You must be doing somthing wrong every time I meet a madruger with either my missile gunlogi or falconi its been toast . Use the range in the missiles to your advantage missiles far out range blasters. You have 250m optimum range before enforcer skills come into play. Yes but it doesn't help if missile accuracy is crap starting at mid range. So armor tanks just stroll in casually to their optimal range. Even when I'm trying to run away, shields being slower, they catch up quickly.
pegasis prime The Shadow Cavalry Mercenaries DARKSTAR ARMY 246	Posted - 2013.06.04 16:12:00 - [55] - Quote If you use the accelerated missilea for anti armour then you shoukdent have a problem with accuracy. The whole thing about letti g blasters get close means you have put yourself in a position with no escape rout or cover to use while you escape. Shield tanking requirws allot of cunning and gurilatactics where armour tanking is more head on . A good way to think about it is how to get past a locked door. Where shield tanking is a lockpick and armour tanking is a battering ram. Both will get you through the doot but the lockpick requires a bit more skill.
Harpyja DUST University Ivy League 76	Posted - 2013.06.04 16:52:00 - [56] - Quote pegasis prime wrote: Shield tanking requirws allot of cunning and gurilatactics where armour tanking is more head on . Shield tanks lost that ability with Uprising. Armor tanks accelerate faster than shield and are faster. You can't outrun an armor tank. The slow acceleration on shields means that your best chance of running away is in the open with little obstacles, but then the armor tank has a clear view. You act as if armor and shield tanks are balanced, but they are not. The difference between accelerated and frag missiles is too specialized. Accelerated missiles have too little splash area to be effective against infantry, while frags are more effective against infantry and inaccurate at range. You don't have to specialize like this with blasters or railguns. Shield tanks need to be buffed. Increase splash area on missiles, improve their accuracy, make shield tanks rep more hp/s than armor to burst tank, and make an armor tank truly slower when plated and not about the same as a shield tank. Also, armor tanks have luxury high slots, while shields have no luxury slots. So far only damage mods can be fit to shield tanks but with the PG nerf this is no longer possible, while armor has a great assortment of scanners, CRUs, and overdrives to go in the highs.
Harpyja DUST University Ivy League 76	Posted - 2013.06.04 16:56:00 - [57] - Quote pegasis prime wrote: Caldari tanks are medium to long range support tanks , where as galenti tanks are close range killers . If you use each tank to its suggested role then you will do well . Try to overstrech that role and yoy have to be one good pilot. Then why don't we get railgun bonuses instead? Like I said before, you sacrifice too much for accuracy, while you don't have to sacrifice anything for accuracy for blasters and railguns. Stop being so ignorant. Shield tanks need to be buffed.
pegasis prime The Shadow Cavalry Mercenaries DARKSTAR ARMY 246	Posted - 2013.06.04 17:10:00 - [58] - Quote A im not being ignorant I run a fully specked caldari enforcer and a well specked madruger so I can see both sides of the argument. With the reacent nerfs to shield tanks iv had to really adapt my battlefirleld stratagem when I run shield whic is 99% of the time. I rarly loose my tanks to other tanks and mostly to proto av . Also I never denied shield tanks needing a buff I just tryed to dish some advice that might have helped if you wernt stuck in the woe betide me attitude . So to summerise improvise adapt and overcome if not then die.
pegasis prime The Shadow Cavalry Mercenaries DARKSTAR ARMY 246	Posted - 2013.06.04 17:16:00 - [59] - Quote Oh and a rail bonus would make shield tanks op. And to point out offered you advice regarding accelerated missiles veing a good counter for armour tanks but you dont want to specilise so when you ignore a provided counter you just make your argument look like QQ.
Eurydice Itzhak Militaires Sans Jeux 55	Posted - 2013.06.04 19:26:00 - [60] - Quote pegasis prime wrote: This seems to be the order of things Armour blaster beats shield blaster. Shield missile beats armour blaster. Shield rail beats armour blaster. Shield missile beats armour missile Armour rail beats everything There is expeptions to these general rules but they are normaly determind by pilot skill rather than just their tank. If this was the way of things the world might be okay, but this is not how the engagements go down. If any armor tank comes into engagement range on a shield tank, the shield tank is dead. It doesn't matter what turret either of them have. There is no turret that can out damage a hardener and a repairer. While on the flipside every turret (except maybe missles, unsure on the situation) can out damage a shield booster and pop you within seconds.



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