Here's my message to all of the Eve veterans who might have their heads stuck in the Eve fishbowl:

Dust 514 and Eve cannot be compared and cannot be held to the same standards.

I know.. your eyes started twitching, your face is red, and your neck started itching a little. I'll explain:

Eve Online, from what I understand is some no-holds-barred free for all MMO, with a deep economy and faction system. From what I've seen in videos, combat looks like a ship sitting still in space while a bunch of laser fly around. Basically, Eve Online is a unique and quirky MMO that has the distinct luxury of being held by it's own standard.

Now that CCP has created Dust 514, that luxury is gone.

When CCP created Dust 514, they stepped into the largest, highest earning, and most competitive genre in all of gaming: first-person shooter games. And whether they like it or not, their game is held to that standard. Gone is the unique privilege of playing by your own rules and expecting everyone to accept it. Economy, loot tables, skill systems, planetary conquest, faction warfare and all other things are secondary in priority to gameplay control, game balance, and accessibility of new players. And if you think I'm dead wrong about not being held to your own standard, let me remind you who decides. Here's a hint: It's not you.

This game will live or die by the experience of players within the first 30-45 minutes of playing.

I'm an incredibly patient gamer, which is why I'm still here. (400-lap races in Gran Turismo, anyone?) Unfortunately, most players are not very patient. They know that Dust 514 is an FPS game before they play it, and they're going to hold it to the standard of other games like Call of Duty and Battlefield the first time they play it whether you like it or not. And frankly, that's their right. Ultimately they have a choice, and they'll choose what's most fun in that moment. After all, video games are an escape from reality so you need to replace reality with something fun and not so tedious. There were many times when I first started playing Dust 514 when I asked myself, "Why am I doing this when I could be playing Battlefield 3 and actually win?"

This is getting too ranty, so I'll cut it short here. Keep in mind that we're competing for the attention of FPS players against the heaviest hitters in the industry. Unless we make sure they have fun from the start, we'll lose them. When choosing the direction of Dust 514, everything takes a back seat to gameplay controls, game balance, and new player accessibility.

I like how everyone always post. "THE DOOM OF DUST" and that people have no patience....

And yet.....

Everyone of them always admits. "well, I am patient am I'm different then all the other QQ people who will quit this game"

Umm.. No..

You are all the same and people will be waiting for the game to get better.

I'm sad you aren't having fun. I'm having a blast. I love this patch.

Let's see. HTFU, welcome to New Eden, adapt or die, QQ more. Did i hit all the standard answers? :)

HEY! It's been awhile since I've seen a "DUST is bad, DUST is dead" thread! Woo! Go haters, go haters go!

Let's see. HTFU, welcome to New Eden, adapt or die, QQ more. Did i hit all the standard answers? :)

Unfortunately, most players are not very patient. They know that Dust 514 is an FPS game before they play it, and they're going to hold it to the standard of other games like Call of Duty and Battlefield the first time they play it whether you like it or not. And frankly, that's their right. Ultimately they have a choice, and they'll choose what's most fun in that moment. After all, video games are an escape from reality so you need to replace reality with something fun and not so tedious.

No this game does not have to dragged down to the standards of other shooters it can be different.

I'm down with that. Completely. I'm quite happy not having yappy bored QQ gamers playing alongside me. I like folks who can play the long game.

I hate FPS games. I love DUST. 'Nuff said.

The OP is half right and half wrong.

While DUST514 is indeed an FPS - it's one that offers a huge universe of 10 years worth of meta. While game mechanics SHOULD TAKE PRIORITY OVER META, it's the meta that will keep people here. You can shoot a gun at anyone in any FPS - but will shooting that person lead to an entire planet being conquered? You won't find that experience anywhere else.

EVE tards are taking there way of things too far and will ultimately be despised by the FPS community. Which will lead DUST down the same road EVE did - which is not what CCP wants, and nothing any of us says seems to help these guys understand that. If DUST has 100+ planets eventually with thousands of districts... but the population is only 4,000 at any given time... then we have a lot of empty spaces that will never be filled - why? Because EVE wants there way which harms the player experience.

Different people have different interests. Dust caters to those that are not satisfied by what the current market offers. Just like eve has survived not in spite but because it made things very different then the rest.

There's more than the generic FPS shooter fan and CCP knows this.

It doesn't matter how unique your game is if the core gameplay mechanics handle worse than the current FPS market champions, or if it doesn't offer enjoyment to new players. The game should definitely be unique, but as the game progresses, the first priority should be gameplay and accessibility for new players.

When you neglect the standards by which the common player holds all FPS games, you do so to your own detriment. This is a business -- you don't get to just make the game you want and ignore gameplay and accessibility of new players.

There were many times when I first started playing Dust 514 when I asked myself, "Why am I doing this when I could be playing Battlefield 3 and actually win?"

Well OBVIOUSLY what OP is saying is...Make it CoD in space and you'll succeed

Well, answer that question, and you found one of the reasons why Dust has a right to exist the way CCP has made it. If CCP wanted to make another Battlefield or Call of Duty, they would have done it. And of course they would have failed, which is why they didn't do it in the first place.

It doesn't matter how unique your game is if the core gameplay mechanics handle worse than the current FPS market champions, or if it doesn't offer enjoyment to new players. The game should definitely be unique, but as the game progresses, the first priority should be gameplay and accessibility for new players.

I'll repeat myself yet again: Prioritize gameplay mechanics, balance, and ease of new player accessibility over the uniqueness of Dust 514, because those first 3 elements are being held to the standard of popular FPS games by potential players -- NOT the uniquess of Dust 514.

I'll repeat myself yet again: Prioritize gameplay mechanics, balance, and ease of new player accessibility over the uniqueness of Dust 514, because those first 3 elements are being held to the standard of popular FPS games by potential players -- NOT the uniquess of Dust 514.

What I'm saying is: Dust without its uniqueness would be a complete failure and, imho, wouldn't have a right to exist. Because it would be just a lame attempt at copying some of the big FPS games we already have in the market for years, and nobody needs that.

Let's see. HTFU, welcome to New Eden, adapt or die, QQ more. Did i hit all the standard answers? :)

Here's my message to all of the Eve veterans who might have their heads stuck in the Eve fishbowl:

Dust 514 and Eve cannot be compared and cannot be held to the same standards.

I know.. your eyes started twitching, your face is red, and your neck started itching a little. I'll explain:

Eve Online, from what I understand is some no-holds-barred free for all MMO, with a deep economy and faction system. From what I've seen in videos, combat looks like a ship sitting still in space while a bunch of laser fly around. Basically, Eve Online is a unique and quirky MMO that has the distinct luxury of being held by it's own standard.

Now that CCP has created Dust 514, that luxury is gone.

When CCP created Dust 514, they stepped into the largest, highest earning, and most competitive genre in all of gaming: first-person shooter games. And whether they like it or not, their game is held to that standard. Gone is the unique privilege of playing by your own rules and expecting everyone to accept it. Economy, loot tables, skill systems, planetary conquest, faction warfare and all other things are secondary in priority to gameplay control, game balance, and accessibility of new players. And if you think I'm dead wrong about not being held to your own standard, let me remind you who decides. Here's a hint: It's not you.

This game will live or die by the experience of players within the first 30-45 minutes of playing.

I'm an incredibly patient gamer, which is why I'm still here. (400-lap races in Gran Turismo, anyone?) Unfortunately, most players are not very patient. They know that Dust 514 is an FPS game before they play it, and they're going to hold it to the standard of other games like Call of Duty and Battlefield the first time they play it whether you like it or not. And frankly, that's their right. Ultimately they have a choice, and they'll choose what's most fun in that moment. After all, video games are an escape from reality so you need to replace reality with something fun and not so tedious. There were many times when I first started playing Dust 514 when I asked myself, "Why am I doing this when I could be playing Battlefield 3 and actually win?"

This is getting too ranty, so I'll cut it short here. Keep in mind that we're competing for the attention of FPS players against the heaviest hitters in the industry. Unless we make sure they have fun from the start, we'll lose them. When choosing the direction of Dust 514, everything takes a back seat to gameplay controls, game balance, and new player accessibility.

No you missed "CoD clone", "Dust is a vision. SOON", "Dust is an MMO not an FPS", "META!!!!!!"

Probably a lot more....Just click on my name and look at my posts...nearly every 3rd of 4th response has something along these lines.

That point only works with the recent FPS community that hold their Call of Duty copies under their pants.

Seriously though that only hits part of the FPS community, I have played plentiful games that require skill (Black on PS2 anyone?) or planning and strategies (Battlefront and old Battlefield games how I miss you <3 )

It is however a relevant point nonetheless, Dust WAS created to break the mould of current kitten "here have your game fed with a spoon" gameplay

Also now comes the big question, what requires more patience, PS2 or Dust?

The only fundamental thing a FPS has to have is good controls, Aiming is one of if not the most important thing in a FPS, and CCP falls kind of short in that aspect. Everything else is great about this game considering the bugs and glitches will get fixed.

No this game does not have to dragged down to the standards of other shooters it can be different.

Let's see. HTFU, welcome to New Eden, adapt or die, QQ more. Did i hit all the standard answers? :)

Basically no. I know, your eye just twitched. First off, Dust does not have to generate COD numbers. It's not even meant to, thus Dust does not have to cater to the bottom feeders like the" big boys ".

Second, Dust needs to be profitable for CCP. That is it. All of the ridiculous speculation about Dust living or dying based on these preconceptions is just irrelevant. As long as CCP finds Dust to be profitable, it will exist. If not, it won't.

Lastly, as an aside, I think CCP know a lot more about what they need to do to make the product that is Dust a success, based on their own terms, than any random forum goers here. Most people on these forums don't know squat about software development, maintenance, marketing, or support, so you're just exposing your ignorance by trying to tell CCP how to succeed. They don't need your (or my)" expert "advice.

HEY! It's been awhile since I've seen a "DUST is bad, DUST is dead" thread! Woo! Go haters, go haters go!

For all you blowhards that somehow know what CCP should do... perhaps you should apply for a job. What? CCP doesn't have a position open for your expertise?

I wonder why.

When CCP created Dust 514, they stepped into the largest, highest earning, and most competitive genre in all of gaming: first-person shooter games.

Gone is the unique privilege of playing by your own rules and expecting everyone to accept it.

And if you think I'm dead wrong about not being held to your own standard, let me remind you who decides. Here's a hint: It's not you.

I'm an incredibly patient gamer, which is why I'm still here. (400-lap races in Gran Turismo, anyone?)

Unfortunately, most players are not very patient.

They know that Dust 514 is an FPS game before they play it, and they're going to hold it to the standard of other games like Call of Duty and Battlefield the first time they play it whether you like it or not. And frankly, that's their right.

Keep in mind that we're competing for the attention of FPS players against the heaviest hitters in the industry. Unless we make sure they have fun from the start, we'll lose them. When choosing the direction of Dust 514, everything takes a back seat to gameplay controls, game balance, and new player accessibility.

It's also entirely their loss. And the game is better for it, to be honest. It's meant to be different, not your ordinary BF3 or COD, whether it rises above or simply stands alone in the sea of generic FPS games that are available, it was never meant to emulate any of them. It is a companion for EVE first, a shooter second.



I tend to find that gamers claim they are looking for something different, but what they are actually looking for is an emulation of something they are good at with different content to make it feel more "new" without actually having to do something new. These are the kind of gamers that DUST can do without, and not something CCP should be sacrificing their vision of the game in order to pander to a gaming audience that can't get over the fact that this shooter is actually different.

It's also entirely their loss. And the game is better for it, to be honest. It's meant to be different, not your ordinary BF3 or COD, whether it rises above or simply stands alone in the sea of generic FPS games that are available, it was never meant to emulate any of them. It is a companion for EVE first, a shooter second.



I tend to find that gamers claim they are looking for something different, but what they are actually looking for is an emulation of something they are good at with different content to make it feel more "new" without actually having to do something new. These are the kind of gamers that DUST can do without, and not something CCP should be sacrificing their vision of the game in order to pander to a gaming audience that can't get over the fact that this shooter is actually different.

I think the point the OP is trying to make is if the game mechanics are not sound then everything else doesn't matter. Take planetary Conquest for example, currently TeamPlayers has been fighting Seraphim Initiative for control of a district however because they are a Euro corp the winner of each match has gone to whoever got the server (SI won on Euro Server, TeamP on U.S.). The framerates regularly drop below 10fps and players are constantly yoyoing across the map. In short, its a terrible shooter experience. Victories are cheapened because they aren't earned from greater strategy or skill, but rather ther region the server is located. Defeat leaves you with a sense of "whats the point? the battles are just a toss up of who gets the server so why put in the effort of corming corporations, farming isk, and taking planets?". In short it's a terrible shooter experience.

If these issue's are not hammered out first then what is the point of owning districts? At it's core Dust is slated to be a very unique and special FPS game, but it's still an FPS.

That is the most hypocritical statement I have ever read.

Huh? WHAT!!!

THIS.

You found the entire point of my topic. An FPS has to have good controls. This is the first priority, and CCP needs to recognize this. Dust 514 will always have the extra stuff and will always be unique, but you've got to nail down the basics or else new players won't stay long enough to enjoy the unique experience that Dust 514 provides.

Then you obviously haven't read much by Ken Ham lately.

It's also entirely their loss. And the game is better for it, to be honest. It's meant to be different, not your ordinary BF3 or COD, whether it rises above or simply stands alone in the sea of generic FPS games that are available, it was never meant to emulate any of them. It is a companion for EVE first, a shooter second.

Matakage, You see these morons dont even get what your saying. If you want good controls and game play your a Cod fanboi. These derps dont relize many of us here hate and dont play Cod or BF. We want a game with all the depth that Dust has to offer. But we also need the game shoot and play well. Dust right now is nowhere near other AAA games.

Go watch the fanfest videos.

Lots of talk about Dust being a "AAA" shooter and an esport.

Also have you played the game? The maps, the vehicles, the FPS mechanics...all of it is near identical to BF3...only with crap controls bad maps and an SP/leveling/grinding system cut and pasted from EvE.

Would you idiots stop making claims that are just no there in the game play.

"CCP has a vision. Yippy!!"

Fine they have a vision...can we actually talk about the actual game we are playing now? or do we have navel gaze forever?

Case in point.

Controls- Aim mechanics

Balance- You will eventually get there, just gotta grind to get proto/complex- everything. PC has balance because everyone is using their best fits. IB and FW- that's reserved for stomping.

Accessibility- How much content is in the game to keep me going.

If none of these matter to the rest of you in dust besides all the bells and whistles, then maybe you shouldn't even be playing dust let alone a FPS. These are the core mechanics that make or break this genre. I really do like what CCP is doing with this game. But if any of these 3 mechanics turn off a CASUAL/HARDCORE FPS player then they will leave not even giving a hoot that there will be improvements.

This whole "debate" thing doesn't work if you don't interpret the words I type correctly. Not once did I say that Dust should produce COD numbers. What I'm saying is that Dust 514 will be held to the standard of CoD and BF3 by reviewers and players alike, whether CCP or any of the veteran players like it or not.
And what I find so amusing is the elitist stance that everyone takes as soon as I point that out. "OH YEAH? WELL WHO NEEDS THEM ANYWAY?" Sorry, but you kinda need new players. And you kinda need good reviews to get new players. If you're gonna get bad reviews and lose players, let's NOT have it be due to poor controls and a poor experience by new players.


Hey, we agree on something! Players and reviewers will hold Dust 514 to the gameplay standard set by CoD and BF3, but the same sales standard? Nobody expects that. I would define success by Dust 514 as "consistent growth." We know Dust 514 is far from being done, so the best goal is to slowly and steadily wedge our niche deeper into the FPS genre over time.


Well now we've touched upon the point of the entire topic: It is indeed the experience of the random player that CCP should value the most. I'm a random player, and a pretty experienced FPS player at that. I also have no experience with EVE whatsoever, so there's another plus. (Yes, it is actually beneficial to look at Dust 514 from an unbiased standpoint.)
And you know what I think is ignorant? People who put game developers on a pedestal. They're humans, they make mistakes, and they work very long hours. Most of them are so deeply focused on a specific task that they start to lose their grasp on the big picture.
Some of us are logical thinkers. Some of us are reasonable and open to suggestions and change. Some of us are leaders. These forums are for sharing your thoughts and bouncing it off other people and I'll do it all I want.

Aurum and plex is what will keep new players around. In eve it takes about seven days to be competitive the plex system hepls new players right off the bat with isk. In turn eve players gets 30 days of free play.

Dust aurum is what new players need to be semi competive until they have enough isk and sp to get better gear. I agree the core gameplay needs to be better.

No disrespect but dust is for nerds aka smart people. My son is 13 years old and he knows everything about dust, but he's an honor student. He took the time to read everything.

So you have to have some type of intellect to play this shooter, most gamers don't. Im almost 40 this is the type of games i like. I have to think about everything. I also have a job meaning i will spend money on dust.

CCP history with eve along with the adults who spend will keep dust trust it will get better. Dust will have a small community that spends money.

If my 13 year old son can play dust with no problem then so can i.

Jah bless.

...

Unfortunately, for once, I agee with Panther Alpha. This game isn't for "smart people". It's for those who are dedicated enough to put time into the game to fully understand the ins and outs, or even the basic SP system. You don't need to be an "honors student" to play the game.

I disagree with him on the metagaming part, though, you need to do something in a very well-thought out manner to get anywhere in this game. Panther, try to get an alt into a big corp and to sabotage their match. Double dog dare ya.

Unfortunately, for once, I agee with Panther Alpha. This game isn't for "smart people". It's for those who are dedicated enough to put time into the game to fully understand the ins and outs, or even the basic SP system. You don't need to be an "honors student" to play the game.

I disagree with him on the metagaming part, though, you need to do something in a very well-thought out manner to get anywhere in this game. Panther, try to get an alt into a big corp and to sabotage their match. Double dog dare ya.

Dust 514= Thinking man's shooter

Halo, COD, Unreal/Quake= Mindless shooter

BF-BF3= Went from thinking man's shooter to mindless shooter.

People keep saying it is thinking man's shooter.

What are you thinking about that is so unique in Dust?

I sure hope you are not thinking that you are thinking when you spend Skill points in the skill tree....Tweeking numbers on a spread sheet in a computer in a computer simulation is not thinking...in fact the whole reason the universe invented spread sheets is because everyone wanted to not think about that garbage.

WTF are you even talking about when you say crap like "thinking man's shooter"?

The OP is half right and half wrong.

While DUST514 is indeed an FPS - it's one that offers a huge universe of 10 years worth of meta. While game mechanics SHOULD TAKE PRIORITY OVER META, it's the meta that will keep people here. You can shoot a gun at anyone in any FPS - but will shooting that person lead to an entire planet being conquered? You won't find that experience anywhere else.

EVE tards are taking there way of things too far and will ultimately be despised by the FPS community. Which will lead DUST down the same road EVE did - which is not what CCP wants, and nothing any of us says seems to help these guys understand that. If DUST has 100+ planets eventually with thousands of districts... but the population is only 4,000 at any given time... then we have a lot of empty spaces that will never be filled - why? Because EVE wants there way which harms the player experience.

I have played plentiful games that require skill (Black on PS2 anyone?)

I see you took that literal. It means your average everyday casual COD run & gunner won't understand the concept of dust the first time he/she plays it. Hell, I had a hard time in the beginning figuring this game out. Then I started to understand with a little patience how it works.

That's WTF I'm talking about smart ass. Maybe if you step outside your elitist world, you would know some of these gaming terms. The universe would be much better without you thinking about what I thought about.

Sooo...there is nothing literal that makes this game a thinking mans game? Only that a lobby FPS with an RPG leveling system slapped onto it confused you? Also i am pretty sure a CoD player can understand the concept of shooting people and spending points you earn into items and levels....i am also pretty sure most of them on the PS3 have tried the game and thought "this is it? Crap lobby FPS (just like CoD by the way) with a RPG leveling system slapped on it to....where are the scifi epic battles? where is the market system? Where is the persistent universe they keep talking about, why can't my gun hit that guy across the way? Why are all these idiots running around in the open? Why are my head shots doing nothing to them?....hell i will just go back to CoD at least the FPS is good in that game."

It seems some people completely misunderstood the OP. He's saying the controls and gameplay of Dust is not to standard ie the FPS side. Sure all the meta stuff and rpg stuff is great but when you look at Dust as an FPS it's sub par. Dust is being advertised as an mmofps not mmorpg so naturally a fan of fps games will download it and go WTF is this?

There have been tons of threads pleading to CCP to get FPS gameplay down first but they didn't listen. So now we are stuck with a great mmorpg as far as skills and economy goes but below standard FPS. After a year of beta testing aiming is still bad, hit detection can be wonky at times, frame rate is terrible, horrible weapon imbalance etc. The list goes on.

CCP has done nothing but listen to the EVE crowd now it's time to listen to the FPS side and fix the actual draw of the game.

Your shot can change a galaxy if you don't have frame rate issues...

Aurum and plex is what will keep new players around. In eve it takes about seven days to be competitive the plex system hepls new players right off the bat with isk. In turn eve players gets 30 days of free play.

Dust aurum is what new players need to be semi competive until they have enough isk and sp to get better gear. I agree the core gameplay needs to be better.

No disrespect but dust is for nerds aka smart people. My son is 13 years old and he knows everything about dust, but he's an honor student. He took the time to read everything.

So you have to have some type of intellect to play this shooter, most gamers don't. Im almost 40 this is the type of games i like. I have to think about everything. I also have a job meaning i will spend money on dust.

CCP history with eve along with the adults who spend will keep dust trust it will get better. Dust will have a small community that spends money.

If my 13 year old son can play dust with no problem then so can i.

Jah bless.

Sorry, but i can't see the MMO in Dust 514....Is not different than any other "Normal" FPS multiplayer game

Yeah I agree the MMO part is lacking as well. Instanced battles and a player cap of 16 v 16 is not very MMO. Planetside 2 is the only true MMOFPS now that I think about it.

It seems some people completely misunderstood the OP. He's saying the controls and gameplay of Dust is not to standard ie the FPS side. Sure all the meta stuff and rpg stuff is great but when you look at Dust as an FPS it's sub par. Dust is being advertised as an mmofps not mmorpg so naturally a fan of fps games will download it and go WTF is this?

There have been tons of threads pleading to CCP to get FPS gameplay down first but they didn't listen. So now we are stuck with a great mmorpg as far as skills and economy goes but below standard FPS. After a year of beta testing aiming is still bad, hit detection can be wonky at times, frame rate is terrible, horrible weapon imbalance etc. The list goes on.

CCP has done nothing but listen to the EVE crowd now it's time to listen to the FPS side and fix the actual draw of the game.

Your shot can change a galaxy if you don't have frame rate issues...

Dude, I play EVE and know that the FPS meat of the game is sub par at best, so you can stop blaming the EVE crowd. They screwed the pooch on uprising, admitted it and are trying to fix something that wasn't broken to begin with. If you're expecting this to be a twitch shooter with a placebo spreadsheet, you're playing the wrong game.

It's a thinking man's game because you're not supposed to run around like a lemming on crack with a GEK-38. You're supposed to work with your squad use that orders radial for more than placing a defend order on someone to farm WP. It's times like this where I wish FF was turned on so we can really see some teamwork instead of blob warfare with TARs.