When I got the merc pack everything was to be refunded when this game came out if beta, since then I have also spent another 60.00 on AUR and I want it back as promises and I want my 3 day head start that I am suppose to get.

When I got the merc pack everything was to be refunded when this game came out if beta, since then I have also spent another 60.00 on AUR and I want it back as promises and I want my 3 day head start that I am suppose to get.

When I got the merc pack everything was to be refunded when this game came out if beta, since then I have also spent another 60.00 on AUR and I want it back as promises and I want my 3 day head start that I am suppose to get.

When I got the merc pack everything was to be refunded when this game came out if beta, since then I have also spent another 60.00 on AUR and I want it back as promises and I want my 3 day head start that I am suppose to get.

When I got the merc pack everything was to be refunded when this game came out if beta, since then I have also spent another 60.00 on AUR and I want it back as promises and I want my 3 day head start that I am suppose to get.

Go and do a charge back on your credit card. Problem solved.

I'm not sure, but I think most banks have a time limit on charge backs. Besides, it would be awfully scummy of CCP to make us resort to that sort of thing.

Why do CCP owe anyone three days exclusive access?

As far as I can tell, they don't. They are contractually obligated to refund us 40,000 AUR at commercial release.

Why do CCP owe anyone three days exclusive access?

1: The game is not yet "commercially released" which was the wording used in the merc park terms.
2: Please provide evidence that the AUR you purchased had terms which specified that it would be refunded.
3: What three day head start?

aren't we still in beta?

I'm confused about this topic. Why should aurum be refunded? You paid for them and you used them. So whats the refund for?

Wrong it is commercially released. That release was Jan 10, 2013.

Wrong it is commercially released. That release was Jan 10, 2013.

I'm not really sure how I feel about this whole thing, honestly. Just about the only right a customer actually has is they must receive the goods as they were defined at the time of sale. So there's a very good possibility you will be getting free stuff. Be interesting to see how this goes.

Unfortunately even though I purchased one of the offending merc packs I also paid attention to announcements from the DEVS so I knew there wasn't going to be another wipe. It's not like they came to your house and told you about it so it's probably reasonable that someone wouldn't know about. Then again maybe not. Maybe you should pay be paying attention to things said by the DEV's for the game you're testing. Like I said, I really don't know how to feel about this one.

announcements from the DEVS so I knew there wasn't going to be another wipe. It's not like they came to your house and told you about it so it's probably reasonable that someone wouldn't know about. Then again maybe not. Maybe you should pay be paying attention to things said by the DEV's for the game you're testing.

Let me clarify, I don't mean right now, I mean when it comes out of beta, just like I want to see the skills reset. My concern is that they are just going to keep rolling the way they are now kinda like how PlayStation home is still in beta and its been like that for several years.

It can't be both a Beta and commercial release, and multiple CCP representatives have stated in writing, in very clear non-ambigous language, that the game has NOT commercially released.

anyone who contact support about this issue got the same answer, consistent with information gleaned from talking to devs.

This is incorrect. I've already explained why.

Meet me on IRC and we'll trade logs.

I'm not going to post petition results verbatim, but I asked a very clear "Are we commercially released, some players have been told we are" and received a direct denial of this as the game's status.

I've also raised issues in the petition that, apparently, Sony have said the game is commercially released, and have stressed that these mixed messages need to be cleared up.

This is one of those things where what it is and what it's called are not the same thing. CCP says it was not a commercial release. You can have all the evidence in the world that it was but until you have a ruling from a court of law of sovereign country with sufficient jurisdiction to try the case your statements that the game is commercially released are wrong.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm not saying your evidence it wrong. I'm just saying it isn't a commercial release until CCP or a judge says it is. You're only going to confuse people if you keep this up.

All this talk about whether it's been commercially released and what not... you guys realize that a commercial release just means that it's available to the general public right? So yes, we are in beta, and it is also a commercial release.

CCP did say it was a commercial release though...

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=52274

^ there is the thread that ccp said they were removing merc pack refunds. It's a good read. Page 3 is the post from ccp.

No they didn't. Representatives might have said that. But the official statement is there has not been a commercial release.

I'm not trying to argue the merits of your case. Look, when the cops find you sitting on top of a dead body with the murder weapon in one hand and a digital recording of you killing the person in 1080P with surround sound you are still the "alleged murder" until a ruling is reached at your trial.

So your statement that there was a commercial release on such and such date is incorrect because you lack the authority to make any official statements on behalf of CCP. You saying it doesn't change anything and will only further obfuscate the issue for people reading the thread.

No they didn't. Representatives might have said that. But the official statement is there has not been a commercial release.

I'm not trying to argue the merits of your case. Look, when the cops find you sitting on top of a dead body with the murder weapon in one hand and a digital recording of you killing the person in 1080P with surround sound you are still the "alleged murder" until a ruling is reached at your trial.

So your statement that there was a commercial release on such and such date is incorrect because you lack the authority to make any official statements on behalf of CCP. You saying it doesn't change anything and will only further obfuscate the issue for people reading the thread.

Again, until an official statement is released confirming commercial release of the game then there hasn't been a commercial release. Really not that hard of a concept.

Again, until an official statement is released confirming commercial release of the game then there hasn't been an admittance of commercial release. Really not that hard of a concept.

If I stab someone, then I stabbed someone, regardless of what I or others say. Whether the court finds me guilty or not doesn't change the fact that I am guilty. This became a commercial release the instant it became available to the general public, regardless of what some court somewhere in who knows where says.

Again, until an official statement is released confirming commercial release of the game then there hasn't been a commercial release. Really not that hard of a concept.

So until CCP or a court of law say otherwise they don't have to do anything.

True. It's just so sleazy that CCP is trying to hide this fact. Namely because they still want to emphasize it's a beta to shield them from reviews.

I swear to god are you all f*cking with me? Is this really that hard of a concept?

You can point to this and that all damn day and argue about whether or not you can bribe a judge to unstab somebody but the simple fact is that until you take this shite to trial and get a signed court order then the game is in whatever stage CCP says it is and they don't have to do a damn thing if they don't want to do it.

This isn't about the law, this is about people's trust in CCP.

Yes, "they don't have to do anything", but it would be nice if they kept their word. All they have to do is admit that this is a Commercial Release, that's all.

If I tell you I'm going to give you 5$, do I have to give them to you? No, but would you trust me if I didn't?

No, actually this is about Noc making statements that are going to do nothing but confuse people.

No, actually this is about Noc making statements that are going to do nothing but confuse people.

You know what, threads like this are getting annoying. CCP, once this game is "commercially released", just refund the AUR and be done with it so that we won't have to deal with this kitten anymore.

CCP didn't make an official statement that the game was released commercially. So until CCP or a court of law say otherwise they don't have to do anything. That's what I'm getting at.

I just don't want people getting confused and thinking they're entitled to this or that or whatever.

If it doesn't come with a skill reset then no, that would be giving away free boosters.

Buy your boosters now everybody, 2 for the price of 1!

And if CCP view commercial release to have already occurred at the time of a previous reset, they need to make some official mention of this fact and train their customer response/GM team in communicating this to players.

Here is the conundrum

*IMPORTANT NOTICE: During beta periods, CCP may need to reset characters, skills and other items included in the DUST 514-« GameStop Mercenary Pack. DUST 514-« GameStop Mercenary Pack will be credited in full to your in-game DUST 514-« account after each character reset and for the commercial release. CCP cannot guarantee all items will be identical and reserves the right to substitute items of similar value. No other form of refund is permitted.

Purchase or use of this item is subject to the PlayStation-«Network Terms of Service and User Agreement and this item's use restrictions. This item has been sublicensed to you by Sony Computer Entertainment America. One-time license fee for downloads to up to 2 console systems that are associated with the purchasing account. Please refer to the DUST 514-« EULA for full terms and conditions on deletion of characters and in-game items upon completion of the beta phase.

-¬2012 CCP hf. All rights reserved. 'CCP', 'DUST 514' and 'EVE Online' are trademarks or registered trademarks of CCP hf in the United States and other jurisdictions. The ESRB ratings icon is a registered trademark of the Entertainment Software Association. All other trademarks and trade names are the properties of their respective owners.

PlayStation-«Move features require PlayStation-«Move motion controller and PlayStation-«Eye (sold separately).


Pulled that from gamestop.com regarding their sale of the Merc pack from today. If the terms clearly state i am to get a refund of my AURUM to my character account during each reset and for the commercial release. Those who say we are in commercial release would argue that our AURUM was refunded to us during the wipe prior to open beta and that open beta was commercial release and should have gotten a AURUM refund back to character for COMMERCIAL RELEASE.

The conundrum, CCP has clearly laid the line that there will be no more SP resets. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=619126#post619126

However for everyone maintaining this is still a Beta and not Commercial release the sticky reality is then CCP needs to refund us our AURUM and to do that without SP reset (as they maintain they WILL NOT DO) means lots more SP boosters bought and a wider SP gap.

So either 1/22/13 was commercial release(beta-work in progress is a tagline) and CCP has fullfilled their obligations of the commericial release language was met(though debatable still) or it is not commercial release and CCP finds themselves in a curious pickle..


/thread.

[quote=Gunner Nightingale]Here is the conundrum

Very logical reply. Now that someone put it this way, I can see now how this is a very sticky situation. But CCP didn't dismiss the idea of an SP reimbursement and to be honest there are probably not that many players who bought the merc packs since open beta. So reimbursing the AUR spent back to their characters may not be such a big deal since Dust is just getting started.

This thread...

Fine, I support the position of the guys who want refunded the AUR and merc pack items on commercial release. They should also get all their salvage and SP reset.

The rest of us will keep our characters as-is.

So your position is basically that people who want CCP to honour a purchase agreement that they made with those players, should be penalised for that?

Yes but the SP reimbursement language refers more to getting back SP back for things like dropsuits or other skill sets where they introduce new content into similar to what they do EVE side.

Even then still the issue becomes it creates a scenario where every individual that has since closed beta to date and more so all merc pack purchases made up to the date of "comercial release" would get aurum refunded and will have reaped the benefits of AURUM bought boosters twice if there isnt a requisite SP wipe to balance it.


While this would be an awesome "beta tester reward" (which if the marketing dept is smart will spin this as and save face) it creates it still comes at some sort of cost to the player base because they are getting double their moneys worth out of a single paid item.

This thread...

Fine, I support the position of the guys who want refunded the AUR and merc pack items on commercial release. They should also get all their salvage and SP reset.

The rest of us will keep our characters as-is.

No, it's not a penalty, it's exactly what you asked for.

The refund was intended for the reset on commercial release and CCP decided to change the timing of the reset. Why would you think you'd get to skip the reset and just have the refund?

Be careful what you ask for, you might actually get it.

1. Salvage has nothing to do with AUR.
2. CCP already confirmed there will be no more SP resets. But again, SP reimbursements are still an idea being considered.

Originally, the Mercenary Pack stated: IMPORTANT NOTICE: During beta periods, CCP may need to reset characters, skills and other items included in the DUST 514-« Mercenary Pack. DUST 514-« Mercenary Pack will be credited in full to your in-game DUST 514-« account after each character reset and for the commercial release. CCP cannot guarantee all items will be identical and reserves the right to substitute items of similar value. No other form of refund is permitted.

It's a penalty because it disadvantages players who bought the merc pack. The product CCP sold to them was "a merc pack and also a merc pack on resets and on commercial release".

Honouring that agreement should have no bearing on their SP in comparison to that of their peers.

Your description of what the refund was intended for is speculation and stating that CCP decided to change the terms should have no impact on those who entered into the agreement with CCP before those terms were changed.

Merc pack does not say that anymore. You got your AUR reset in Chromosome build.

He's treating Open Beta as a commercial release, which he's right to do, in which case then CCP has already honored their part of the agreement. They just have to admit that this is a commercial release now.... Honestly, all this confusion stems from CCP not wanting to admit that this is a CR.

3. The AUR reset in Chromosome build could easily be the result of either a: reset due to character reset or b: reset due to commercial release. That CCP (sometimes) denies that the game is commercially released suggests the former, leaving a future merc pack redistribution required on commercial release, as per the terms of this agreement.

Yeah, if the game is commercially released, the terms of the original merc pack sales are satisfied... but the denial that we are commercially released makes things troublesome.

Open Beta is a commercial release, or is the game not available to the General public? Because that's what a commercial release is, not when CCP decides it is.

Can you link me to where "commercial release" has a universally agreed upon definition in legal agreements?

Nope, I couldn't find a legal definition, but relying on a loophole is a pretty sketchy thing to do. They could very well claim CR 7 years from now if that's the case.

Generally speaking though, software is considered "commercially" released once it's available to the public.

Merc pack does not say that anymore. You got your AUR reset in Chromosome build.

I'm not going to touch that, because with the time I have to invest in this conversation, all I've got is a wiki link which says otherwise.

Your description of "commercial release" is not my experience with the concept.

EDIT: And they could claim commercial release seven years from now. That's how open beta works.

No, it's not a penalty, it's exactly what you asked for.

The refund was intended for the reset on commercial release and CCP decided to change the timing of the reset. Why would you think you'd get to skip the reset and just have the refund?

Be careful what you ask for, you might actually get it.

Nope, Open Beta is a commercial release, or is the game not available to the General public? Because that's what a commercial release is, not when CCP decides it is.

Let me clarify, I don't mean right now, I mean when it comes out of beta, just like I want to see the skills reset. My concern is that they are just going to keep rolling the way they are now kinda like how PlayStation home is still in beta and its been like that for several years.

CCP have stated, in writing, that we are not yet in commercial release. Look back through the dev posts to around the time the other thread about this (linked a page or two back) and see for yourself if you want. In fact, they were actually quite rude and dismissive about the idea that anyone would even consider the beta "commercial release".

Salvage has everything to do with AUR in that AUR has everything to do with a character reset.

I wont post the actual wording again just look a few posts up. And here is the link the terms are still the same at Gamestop so what they're are selling an item under two DIFFERENT set of terms and conditions at the same time. That only makes it worse.

http://www.gamestop.com/ps3/dlc/dust-514-gamestop-mercenary-pack/106107

Gamestop merc pack is Gamestop Mercenary Pack. Different item. But if you buy that and the game ever goes to commercial release you should get the items back, or items of similar value. Just like it says.

Yeah ccp messed up big time on this one.

They haven't said anything about it because they probably don't know what to say.

Yeah ccp messed up big time on this one.

They haven't said anything about it because they probably don't know what to say. Only time will tell. But as it stands on commercial release (whenever that is) they have to refund all merc packs bought before jan 22nd and currently any merc packs bought from GameStop.

No, they don't need to refund my merc pack, in fact I insist they don't.

Since I don't want to have all my SP reset I'll just let them keep what I've spent, while the rest of you whiners can go insist having your characters' SP reset for the refund.

Working on your earlier (unsubstantiated) assumption that an AUR refund requires a character reset, I suppose that makes sense.

Yup, I still fully expect CCP to honor the conditions they set when they sold me the merc pack. If they don't, I expect a full refund.

You can blow it out any available orifice, Kitten.

Try and get a refund from Activision or EA. Even when they completely puke out a turd of a product or completely screw the launch, release or server support a refund for anything from a game company is not gonna happen.

You spent a reasonably small amount of money and you got more than a reasonable amount of game play out of it. It is certainly more than the 8 to 10 hours the has become the standard for video games.

Your sense of entitlement is even worse when compared to your lack of common sense.

Apparently you all didn't read my post on page5...I said THE END at the end of it meaning this discussion is over! It is in BETA! THE END!!! Devs please lock this up!


THE END!!!

You can blow it out any available orifice, Kitten.

Try and get a refund from Activision or EA. Even when they completely puke out a turd of a product or completely screw the launch, release or server support a refund for anything from a game company is not gonna happen.

You spent a reasonably small amount of money and you got more than a reasonable amount of game play out of it. It is certainly more than the 8 to 10 hours the has become the standard for video games.

Your sense of entitlement is even worse when compared to your lack of common sense.

CCP can dodge your request by never going to full release. They just simply state that the open beta never ends and you are screwed. After all there is no timestamp on a "official release". Its that simple to be honest. Funny how nobody even remotely thought about it..

yay...these ass hats are going to force a server wipe...thanks for that >.>

yay...these ass hats are going to force a server wipe...thanks for that >.>

When I got the merc pack everything was to be refunded when this game came out if beta, since then I have also spent another 60.00 on AUR and I want it back as promises and I want my 3 day head start that I am suppose to get.

You are no different than the rest of us who bought aurum, you get no special treatment you self entitled snob.

You are no different than the rest of us who bought aurum, you get no special treatment you self entitled snob.
People were warned in advance by dev posts that the move to TQ would also be the last aurum reset and that all spent aurum would not be refunded.

Isnt this subject to change by CCP ?

Yes however in the terms ccp has to give something equal to what was in the merc pack. Ergo they have to give players something big, equivalent to what's in the pack.

Isnt this subject to change by CCP ?

I don't see why in the hell that's too much to ask or why people are getting their panties in a wad over such a request.

It's not like we're trying to trick anyone or screw CCP out of anything, we are just asking that they give us ALL of the products we purchased within the spirit of the terms they set rather than them deciding POST-SALE that they no longer want to honor HALF of the freakin' deal that we (their PAYING customers) purchased.

I don't see why in the hell that's too much to ask or why people are getting their panties in a wad over such a request.

Sure, they can give out items "of equal value" to the merc pack items at launch. Heck, they can probably twist and worm their way out of doing much of anything about it, but I don't think that's the sort of reputation they are trying to build with console gamers is it? One in which they sell you a product and then screw you out of part of the purchase afterwards with technicalities? It doesn't really hurt them to actually honor the agreement that THEY SET THE TERMS FOR.

It's not like we're trying to trick anyone or screw CCP out of anything, we are just asking that they give us ALL of the products we purchased within the spirit of the terms they set rather than them deciding POST-SALE that they no longer want to honor HALF of the freakin' deal that we (their PAYING customers) purchased.

I don't see why in the hell that's too much to ask or why people are getting their panties in a wad over such a request.

Because you already received the benefits of the initial purchase. Did you use the 30 day booster that came with the merc pack? Give back any SP that you received thanks to boosters ( is their a way of tracking that? ), then we can talk refunds. At the moment it just sounds like closed beta testers want a 2 for 1 deal.

The initial purchase was 1 x Mercenary Pack + these items credited to the account for each character reset and for commercial release.

That's what was purchased. That's what the purchase agreement said and what people were told they were paying for. Treating this like the initial items were the purchase is missing the point.

The initial purchase was 1 x Mercenary Pack + these items credited to the account for each character reset and for commercial release.

That's what was purchased. That's what the purchase agreement said and what people were told they were paying for. Treating this like the initial items were the purchase is missing the point.

I don't agree that treating it as the items is missing the point.

Let's be reasonable and realistic here. No one bought a merc pack thinking they were going to be getting a second set (applicable to their final characters) of what was in them. It was assumed there would be a reset before launch and that we'd get one of every item. Yes, CCP messed up with their wording, there's no doubt to that. But we still all got the items we paid for and they have been applied to characters that will continue into the released build. While legally you are all correct, I don't see how anyone can't admit that they would in the end be getting twice what they paid for by getting a refund. An apology by CCP would be sufficient in my opinion. Although I don't personally want one.

We are not in Commercial Release. Any statements of such from a GM was inaccurate.

All items purchased are under Sony's TOS, Sony reserves the right to change their TOS at their discretion at any time, you agree to those terms every time you use their first party services, last I checked that includes PSN. So... guess what? The terms on the Merc pack changed, tough luck.

You could always try getting a lawyer though, good luck.

Yes, but when purchasing an item you agree to those terms at point of purchase. A term change only effects future purchases.

Yeah, and one of the terms they agreed to was the fact that the terms are subject to change.

You don't understand laws well do you?

Then why are you trying to argue something that you don't have a good knowledge of?

Oh wait I forgot this is the Internet XD

Exactly. Basically, it seems like Sloth is arguing that the Merc Pack was "too good of a deal" and that we shouldn't care that we are not GETTING the deal that the merc pack offered because recieving HALF of the deal is GOOD ENOUGH.

Sorry Sloth, but that's CCP's fault, not mine. I bought the Merc Pack because I knew that once the Beta was OVER and all of the awesome LAUNCH stuff was in the game that I would get my AUR back and get another booster. That's what CCP offered and that's what I purchased.

If it you believe it was an overly generous offer on their part, then take it up with CCP, but don't act like I'm being a **** for wanting them to honor the purchase that I made with my real world dollars. That's just ridiculous.

They offered a "2 for 1 deal" not me, I bought the deal that THEY offered. It's not my fault they realized post-facto that they shouldn't have sold me what they sold me, they don't get to just remove half the deal after the fact.

also, just to clarify:



posted TODAY

Yay and ass hat over here prefers to bury their head in the sand rather then acknowledge CCP screwed up.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=642189#post642189

Not everyone here is clamoring for an AUR refund. I sure as hell dont want one because i know what it inevitably would mean for them to do it. Point is CCP keeps going in circles and STILL has the original language of the TC at a different vendor. Add to this their continued commitement to no SP reset, only possible SP reimbursements in skill subsections affected by a content update and everything else this puts CCP in seriously murky water.

Compound this with the TC make references to the EULA (a agreement that they can change at will and by us simply logging we tacitly agree to that agreement which they could but like WON'T ever use to wiggle out of this conundrum) and you have the makings of something that could utterly railroad and derail their project.


Pretending that this is not a problem or dismissing players as ignorant, stupid or entitled makes you look even worse and clearly demonstrates your ignorance at the larger issue. The bury your head in the sand and hope(lock it until) it goes away doesnt solve the issue and will only get worse as time moves forward.

1. CCP needs to address the language of wheter this is or is not Commercial release

2. If it is still a beta CCP needs Gamestop to remove or update that disclaimer (as many of you claim its still beta)

3. If it is still a beta and there are no AURUM resets problem becomes they took money for an unfinished product.

4. You arguing that a person is stupid for spending money on an unfinished product and expecting reimbursement of IN GAME funds not ACTUAL REFUND OF MONEY clearly dont understand Consumer product law, you acting like this isn't an issue for CCP to worry about displays remarkable ignorance.


Lastly demanding the RIGHTS i enjoy as a CONSUMER does indeed make me "entitled" what it doesnt make me is privileged or spoiled which is the word i think you're really looking for.

The thing about refunding is that theoretically they would be giving away a LOT of free stuff. The raven assault suits.... the militia bpo's.... anything somebody bought using AUR after the price increase would essentially be given away if they refund the SP. So somebody might think, "ok so why dont they just take away what they bought using the AUR" but the problem with that is that it would be a huge mess with every closed beta tester ATM. The reason for that being is that part of our reward for being closed beta testers was the ability to buy the AUR items dirt cheap before they increased the prices on them. This and the fact that they cant revert "boosted" SP from the player makes it a really difficult decision as far as refunds go.

At the end of the day CCP is a business, and as any business i expect them to make whatever choice is more likely to make them/ save them more money in the end.

You don't understand laws well do you?

Anyway, how about you enlighten me as to why that's not legal?

Yes, the terms that apply are the ones that were in place when you made the purchase. One of those terms was that the terms themselves could change, and people agreed to it buy purchasing it anyway, they continued to agree to them everytime they logged in to PSN.

In the U.S. the term that "these terms can change" is not legally binding/recognized.

Oh okay, I was not aware of that.

to clarify, when this particular term is in an agreement, it means that people who purchase a product AFTER the terms have changed are not legally entitled to the earlier terms. It does not apply to purchases made before the terms changed, all purchased made prior to said change are bound to the previous terms.

Basically, Joe Public who buys the Merc Pack after they changed the terms can't say "Well, those people got different terms, you OWE me the same deal that they got". A more specific example would be the extra dropsuits that some players received in the Merc Pack. I didn't get them because I bought the Merc Pack too soon, and players who buy the Merc Pack now don't get them because that bonus is now over. We have no legal claim to those suits because the agreement clearly states the terms may change. However, anyone who bought it while those dropsuits were offered are legally entitled to them, even though they are no longer available to others.

make sense now?