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Sextus Hardcock
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
108
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Posted - 2013.03.19 17:17:00 -
[91] - Quote
Sentient Archon wrote: Most mercs wont stay once they are done with the training. You may as well make some ISK out of it.
While this may raise some neutrality issues its just another thought.
Also this ^
Essentially you are 'selling' your education, by providing competent Mercs to established corps. Again as long as you don't favour one corp over another (perhaps bidding on mercs could take place) you shouldn't have a problem with neutrality.
Also you may want to consider having guest teachers come in to teach. Would give them a chance to act as a 'talent scout' for their home corp as well. |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders Red Rock Consortium
401
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Posted - 2013.03.19 17:17:00 -
[92] - Quote
Hopefully CCP will provide for ISK transfer between mercs and DUST corp wallets soon. I would certainly pay for classes for my guys and would like to see classes offered by DU that brings in top caliber talent from the community as well. |
Sentient Archon
Red Star.
843
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Posted - 2013.03.19 17:19:00 -
[93] - Quote
Sextus Hardcock wrote:Essentially you are 'selling' your education, by providing competent Mercs to established corps. Again as long as you don't favour one corp over another (perhaps bidding on mercs could take place) you shouldn't have a problem with neutrality.
Brilliant! +1000 |
Kevall Longstride
DUST University Ivy League
127
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Posted - 2013.03.19 17:21:00 -
[94] - Quote
3 bird wrote:Kev, your geek is showing again buddy We are Mercs not Mentats :P
You want geek... Tleilax is where the twisted Mentats are trained. |
3 bird
DUST University Ivy League
120
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Posted - 2013.03.19 17:32:00 -
[95] - Quote
Sorry guys my CEO seems to have his geek showing again.
*grabs Kev and pull him aside*
Put it in your dam pants man! Now go CEO or something over there.
*walks back to on-topic, not Dune related conversation about D-Uni's possable involvement in P.C*
CEO's these days |
Synthetic-Method
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
5
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Posted - 2013.03.19 17:56:00 -
[96] - Quote
This is a question for Kevall and 3 bird.
Other than an income source, which is only a temporary problem due to lacking game mechanics, what does engaging in PConquering provide educationally?
Are the core game mechanics going to be radically different (referring to the grunt experience)?
If not cant things like comms etiquette, working as a team, and how to fill a specific role be taught outside of PConquest?
In short what educational benefit is Dust Uni going to gain from controlling planets that cant be gained using squads in FW and pub matches at a newberies level of play?
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Jetteh22
DUST University Ivy League
41
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Posted - 2013.03.19 17:58:00 -
[97] - Quote
Sentient Archon wrote:Alcare Xavier Golden wrote:I don't think we want to ask for favoritism from CCP..........that would nuke neutrality.....lol Not if the community agrees to it. If the community agrees to you have 3-4 districts on your own I wont call that as favoritism. I would call it support. Again like I said it all depends on what the community agress upon.
I don't think CCP would go for it and I really don't think this is the way to go anyways. It isn't "fair" to all of the other corps out there. Just because D-UNI and a couple of other bigger 'training' corps are known, I'm sure there are a few smaller ones that only have a few members and trying to start out. It wouldn't be fair for them to not get their own free districts.
Also, it would just open up a can of worms because if they were to get to the size of D-UNI they would want their own districts also and so on and so forth. |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders Red Rock Consortium
402
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Posted - 2013.03.19 18:07:00 -
[98] - Quote
Synthetic-Method wrote:Are the core game mechanics going to be radically different (referring to the grunt experience)?
I know this wasn't directed at me but the big obvious difference will be friendly fire. |
Sentient Archon
Red Star.
843
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Posted - 2013.03.19 18:07:00 -
[99] - Quote
Jetteh22 wrote:I don't think CCP would go for it and I really don't think this is the way to go anyways. It isn't "fair" to all of the other corps out there. Just because D-UNI and a couple of other bigger 'training' corps are known, I'm sure there are a few smaller ones that only have a few members and trying to start out. It wouldn't be fair for them to not get their own free districts.
Also, it would just open up a can of worms because if they were to get to the size of D-UNI they would want their own districts also and so on and so forth.
Welp if CCP doesn't do this kitten them. Let the community decide. Like Sextus pointed out;- reach out the the big name corps out there and ask for their support. If they agree, you are secured.
Quite honestly if smaller corps want to survive they better be able to field 16 players or join an alliance that could help them out. Either way they have no place owning a district if they cant defend it one way or the other. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
448
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 18:13:00 -
[100] - Quote
Synthetic-Method wrote:This is a question for Kevall and 3 bird.
Other than an income source, which is only a temporary problem due to lacking game mechanics, what does engaging in PConquering provide educationally?
Are the core game mechanics going to be radically different (referring to the grunt experience)?
If not cant things like comms etiquette, working as a team, and how to fill a specific role be taught outside of PConquest?
In short what educational benefit is Dust Uni going to gain from controlling planets that cant be gained using squads in FW and pub matches at a newberies level of play?
I know you wanted Kev and Bird, but I'm a Nosy Nellie so here's my two cents, er... points:
- The colleges need a way for their instructors to gain firsthand knowledge of the mechanics. - Lecturing or reading about something is very different from experiencing it or participating. |
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Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
448
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Posted - 2013.03.19 18:18:00 -
[101] - Quote
Sentient Archon wrote:Jetteh22 wrote:I don't think CCP would go for it and I really don't think this is the way to go anyways. It isn't "fair" to all of the other corps out there. Just because D-UNI and a couple of other bigger 'training' corps are known, I'm sure there are a few smaller ones that only have a few members and trying to start out. It wouldn't be fair for them to not get their own free districts.
Also, it would just open up a can of worms because if they were to get to the size of D-UNI they would want their own districts also and so on and so forth. Welp if CCP doesn't do this kitten them. Let the community decide. Like Sextus pointed out;- reach out the the big name corps out there and ask for their support. If they agree, you are secured. Quite honestly if smaller corps want to survive they better be able to field 16 players or join an alliance that could help them out. Either way they have no place owning a district if they cant defend it one way or the other.
To be honest, leaving it in the hands of players to sort out is more CCP's style.
Besides, we wouldn't want any college to get branded with the BoB taint, deserved or not. |
Sentient Archon
Red Star.
843
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 18:22:00 -
[102] - Quote
Vaerana Myshtana wrote: Besides, we wouldn't want any college to get branded with the BoB taint, deserved or not.
I don't get this. I would like to know more about it but it can be done offline. |
Alcare Xavier Golden
DUST University Ivy League
107
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 18:26:00 -
[103] - Quote
The main thing we feel at the moment is that the tactics used in the new system will be different. Each side will have a different objective.
The attackers will do everything in their power to extend the clock on the match while destroying as many clones as they can.
The deffenders will be doing everything they can to destroy the enemy MCC or kill reds while maintaining as many clones as possible.
The tactics used and the experience of the this type of battle, we feel, would be sufficiently different from a pub or FW match for us to be concerned about seeking the experience for students. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
448
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 18:33:00 -
[104] - Quote
Sentient Archon wrote:Vaerana Myshtana wrote: Besides, we wouldn't want any college to get branded with the BoB taint, deserved or not.
I don't get this. I would like to know more about it but it can be done offline.
I honestly don't know the details, but here's the thread that attempted to address it officially:
http://community.eveonline.com/iNgameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=471868 |
Synthetic-Method
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
6
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Posted - 2013.03.19 18:34:00 -
[105] - Quote
Alcare Xavier Golden wrote:The main thing we feel at the moment is that the tactics used in the new system will be different. Each side will have a different objective.
The attackers will do everything in their power to extend the clock on the match while destroying as many clones as they can.
The deffenders will be doing everything they can to destroy the enemy MCC or kill reds while maintaining as many clones as possible.
The tactics used and the experience of the this type of battle, we feel, would be sufficiently different from a pub or FW match for us to be concerned about seeking the experience for students.
Fair enough. So the next step is to determine if this justifies D-Uni owning districts or trying to get dunistas involved through other means. Both options have difficulties that must be ironed out.
What is D-Uni currently leaning to and why? |
3 bird
DUST University Ivy League
121
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 18:39:00 -
[106] - Quote
Synthetic-Method wrote:This is a question for Kevall and 3 bird.
Other than an income source, which is only a temporary problem due to lacking game mechanics, what does engaging in PConquering provide educationally?
Are the core game mechanics going to be radically different (referring to the grunt experience)?
If not cant things like comms etiquette, working as a team, and how to fill a specific role be taught outside of PConquest?
In short what educational benefit is Dust Uni going to gain from controlling planets that cant be gained using squads in FW and pub matches at a newberies level of play?
As far as I can tell from the Dev blogs, and mechanics they have published, there will be tactics used only in P.C.
The Attackers job will be focused purely on kill as many clones as possible while keeping there MCC alive as long as possible. where as the Defenders objective will be killing the hostile MCC as fast as possible while keeping as many of there own clones alive as possible. It will take a different level of focus and objective awareness than any other form of combat available to DUST514. We will be teaching basic skills tactic in other matches but P.C will be where we polish of our students and hand them over to you guys.
So will the grunt experience be vastly omg wtf different, no. But without having a tactical understanding of the objective based game play (I mean above and beyond capture C) that will be the focus of P.C they wont be able to slip into there chosen corp without further training on the basics of tactical awareness. If after we say we have finished training them you guys still have to do more training surly we haven't finished doing our job? |
3 bird
DUST University Ivy League
121
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 18:54:00 -
[107] - Quote
Synthetic-Method wrote:Alcare Xavier Golden wrote:The main thing we feel at the moment is that the tactics used in the new system will be different. Each side will have a different objective.
The attackers will do everything in their power to extend the clock on the match while destroying as many clones as they can.
The deffenders will be doing everything they can to destroy the enemy MCC or kill reds while maintaining as many clones as possible.
The tactics used and the experience of the this type of battle, we feel, would be sufficiently different from a pub or FW match for us to be concerned about seeking the experience for students. Fair enough. So the next step is to determine if this justifies D-Uni owning districts or trying to get dunistas involved through other means. Both options have difficulties that must be ironed out. What is D-Uni currently leaning to and why?
At the moment that's impossible to say, that not me being hush hush about it its just we all have different opinions internally so we cant say 1 way or the other.
What we are thinking of doing is letting this thread run its course. From the information and opinions we have gained here the director will all individual create a plan for D-Uni relating to P.C. These plans will all be presented to the rest of the directors at a meeting we will be having shortly and we will be looking for common ground. things/areas/ideas we all agree on and from that we will build a proposal.
That proposal will be vetted by Ivy league and if they are happy with it. that is the proposal we will go with.
So as to what way D-Uni is learning we really cant say as until we have a proposal written up we just don't know.
Internally we have people who would like to avoid P.C to remain truly neutral, some who would like to explore the possibility of a coalition with other educational corps, those who would like to try and hold a few district independently, those that like the idea of hiring out merc's. pretty much every idea in the thread someone has thought was a good idea so yeah, impossible to say.
If the above fails to create a workable proposal it will be up to Kev to decide, when it comes down to it is his call anyway.
While I cant promise this out right, there seems to be a lot of support for keeping our P.C plans open and transparent to the community. You guys have been so supportive in this thread of both D-Uni as a corp and giving us idea that we feel it is the very least we can do.
Thanks guys and please, keep the idea and opinions coming. |
Maken Tosch
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
1703
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 19:08:00 -
[108] - Quote
I would say it's best to take a whole planet with the least amount of districts on it and just stick with it and have no further expansions. Even though New Eden is a harsh galaxy, there have been cases where the power blocs had a mutual agreement so long as it benefits them. The power blocs would agree to defend said planet from invaders while the owner of that planet provides the power blocs with fresh new recruits under the condition that no one power bloc is favored over the other.
I'm just throwing an idea out there. Not sure if this is a good idea or a bad one. |
Kevall Longstride
DUST University Ivy League
130
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 19:19:00 -
[109] - Quote
Synthetic-Method wrote:This is a question for Kevall and 3 bird.
Other than an income source, which is only a temporary problem due to lacking game mechanics, what does engaging in PConquering provide educationally?
Are the core game mechanics going to be radically different (referring to the grunt experience)?
If not cant things like comms etiquette, working as a team, and how to fill a specific role be taught outside of PConquest?
In short what educational benefit is Dust Uni going to gain from controlling planets that cant be gained using squads in FW and pub matches at a newberies level of play?
3 bird has pretty much addressed this. (I was driving home from work) The friendly fire is going to be the major thing we want to get across to our students.
We've been delighted with the kind of feedback we've been getting and its given us a lot of food for thought. Please keep it up.
We'll be doing a lot talking in the background and hammer out the way we want to go. We've got to talk to the rest of Ivy League see what their thoughts are then we've got to talk to the rest of the corp and get feedback from them as well.
So this obviously isn't anything we're planning to do lightly nor something that we want to keep secret. Rest assured we'll let the community know what we plan to do when we've chosen which way to jump. |
Alcare Xavier Golden
DUST University Ivy League
107
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 19:24:00 -
[110] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:The power blocs would agree to defend said planet from invaders while the owner of that planet provides the power blocs with fresh new recruits under the condition that no one power bloc is favored over the other. Just a thought...
D-Uni can provide the opportunity to all corps to recruit from the graduates or let the duni's naturally progress to other corporations; however, it is ultimately up to the merc himself to choose which corp he or she joins. Though, DUni itself may not show favoritism...excellent recruitment tactics may still result in more grads moving to one corp or alliance over another...
Basically we will only be able to offer equal SERVICE to corps (classes) and mercs (membership/classes) not necessarily equal product....because in the end the duni's are NOT our commodity to sell. We can not garantee ANYONE a stream of recruits. If the corp wants graduates they'll have to focus on recruiting, not that where not willing to help corps that are interested in recruiting it would be another equal opportunity service.
Everyone is welcome at our door and equally welcome to move on...we don't charge anybody on either side of the door. |
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3 bird
DUST University Ivy League
121
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Posted - 2013.03.19 19:33:00 -
[111] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:I would say it's best to take a whole planet with the least amount of districts on it and just stick with it and have no further expansions. Even though New Eden is a harsh galaxy, there have been cases where the power blocs had a mutual agreement so long as it benefits them. The power blocs would agree to defend said planet from invaders while the owner of that planet provides the power blocs with fresh new recruits under the condition that no one power bloc is favored over the other.
I'm just throwing an idea out there. Not sure if this is a good idea or a bad one.
No such thing as a bad idea.... okay so using a dropship like a canon ball, aiming it at a tank, jumping out and hoping it hit/kills the tank wasn't a smart idea but it was fun.... sorry I digress.
The problem we have with this model is that no matter how you do it it looks like favouritism from the outside. If your not one of the power blocs we have an agreement with, then you are that much less likly to get D-Uni grads entering your corp. Not because we want our guys to go to a specific corp/alliance in return for the protection, but just through familiarity and interaction.
If our guys talk to you, see you or interact with you more than any other corp it perfectly reasonable for them to want to join your corp when they graduate from D-Uni. But from the outside it looks like we are only training mercs for those surrounding power blocs. Any agreement of this nature would have to completely voluntary on all sides.
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Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
601
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 19:46:00 -
[112] - Quote
Bojo's School of the Trades wants in, we will be seeing you in conquest Uni
Calling all Allies! Red Rocks! Legacy Rising! Hell even those few people from PFBHz! |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders Red Rock Consortium
405
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 19:49:00 -
[113] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Bojo's School of the Trades wants in, we will be seeing you in conquest Uni Calling all Allies! Red Rocks! Legacy Rising! Hell even those few people from PFBHz!
Hey, Bojo. I could use some training. Can't figure out the stick shift on this tank...
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Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
448
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 19:50:00 -
[114] - Quote
Another version of the Scholarship Planet idea ("Saraswati"?) would be to find one with a lot of districts in a dead-end system way off by itself and to have the Major League corps maintain a few districts each in addition to the colleges.
So, for instance if it was a 19 district planet, maybe each of the Majors holds three, each College holds two, and that would leave four "warzones".
In this scenario, all of the Scholarship Coalition members would have a presence on the planet and be better able to defend it. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
448
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 19:56:00 -
[115] - Quote
3 bird wrote: The problem we have with this model is that no matter how you do it it looks like favouritism from the outside. If your not one of the power blocs we have an agreement with, then you are that much less likly to get D-Uni grads entering your corp. Not because we want our guys to go to a specific corp/alliance in return for the protection, but just through familiarity and interaction.
If our guys talk to you, see you or interact with you more than any other corp it perfectly reasonable for them to want to join your corp when they graduate from D-Uni. But from the outside it looks like we are only training mercs for those surrounding power blocs. Any agreement of this nature would have to completely voluntary on all sides.
In the Scholarship Planet model, if the "war zone" districts, instead of being reserved for the Coalition, are publicly declared "safe to attack" (no retribution), would that maybe increase the likelihood that College students would interact with non-Coalition members?
Addressing my earlier posts:
If there are 13 districts, and each College owns three, that leaves four "war zone" districts. Those could be advertised as being "fair game" to anybody, provided that they not be used to attack the Colleges or another war zone.
Thus, a corp that just wants to attack for the halibut could attack it without worrying about the Major Leaguers coming after their home districts in revenge. Similarly, a no-name corp could attack one to get a foothold from which to attack another planet or just to get some experience- knowing full well that the Colleges are going to come after them (but not pursue off-world). |
Roy Ventus
Foxhound Corporation
177
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 20:18:00 -
[116] - Quote
It's not something they need to do but rather something that would be cool to do.
Forgive me for my ignorance on the Dust Uni's standards and codes but the only problem I see is the fact that they would become targeted by hungry, albeit minor, corps mostly. I feel that there should be an unspoken word to not attack their districts but this is New Eden where "Adapt or Die" is the way of life. But even with such animalistic ideals, there should still be some order, especially when this corp is non-aggresive, neutral, and has an output all corps benefit from: Trained Mercs.
Attacking them as all they do is collect isk to fund their organization, so that they may crank out trained players would indeed be counterintuitive.
I would go as far as to say if their district is taken by a corp, we should go on and take it back for them although I know no one wants to take part of a cycle of defending another corp who field newbies all of the time, if it ever becomes such.
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Aegis Scientiafide
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2013.03.19 20:22:00 -
[117] - Quote
It would have to be on a neutral planet, otherwise it wouldn't work. I'd say the best bet would be to grab one of the smaller 5 district planets from the start. I'd suggest maybe forming an alliance with other like-minded corps (ie other "educational institutions") to occupy the planet. As long as they don't get greedy and just stick to the small planet I can't see why it shouldn't work. Of course, transparency and advertising would be key,
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Synthetic-Method
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
7
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Posted - 2013.03.19 21:22:00 -
[118] - Quote
Synthetic-Method wrote:Unfortunately you will not be able to do this and maintain neutrality. For the same reason E-Uni does not hold sovereignty in the cluster Dust Uni will not be able to hold districts and have NAPs without meta being a factor and neutrality questioned in the long run.
As for students learning about PConquest it will be up to their eventual home corp to teach them. Uni as an organization teaches new players about the game and is a stepping stool to another corp. Unless things have changed with Keldum stepping down otherwise the answer is obviously no Uni cannot own districts and maintain neutrality.
Now that I'm at a computer and not on my phone I will post my main arguments against D-Uni holding Districts/Planets and give my feedback on an alternative.
1. This has the potential of being a repeat of history:
No matter if you claim all income taken in will be used for buying skill books gaining this money through districts has the potential of generating distrust with the Uni. Also by creating a join venture with other entities makes this even harder to prove where the ISK is going.
Example: The Big Blue (BLUE or TBB) was established as a neutral entity with the aim of providing unhindered access to 0.0 space. It was a NAGA social experiment that, contrary to rumors, was never intended as a cash generating venture.
N.A.G.A. Corporation [NAGA] (founding member) Four Horsemen [LIH] (founding member) Eve University [E-UNI] (founding member) Royal Navy Fleet and Logistics Management [RNFLM] Stepstone [STEPS] (NAGA alt corp) B.L.E.E.D. Fatalix Inc. [FXI] Northern Empire [NEMP]
Source: http://eve-history.net/wiki/index.php/Big_Blue
2. This causes an issue with Uni defined Neutrality:
If D-Uni is dependant on other entities to help maintain its borders these entities conflicts become an interest of D-Uni.
Example: A neutral corporation or alliance takes active steps to avoid entangling themselves in the affairs of others. This is accomplished by keeping recruitment open to a wide population, insisting on a corporate culture of helpfulness and various diplomatic efforts to demonstrate to other corporations and alliances our disinterest in their conflicts.
Source: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Neutrality#Neutrality
My feedback on how D-Uni can participate in P-Conquest: On the other hand I do agree with having D-Uni members participate in mixed squad engagements.
Example: For reasons of neutrality, IVY members are not permitted in non-NPC nullsec, unless as part of a director authorized event, or lead by an ILN FC. It is suggested that members use the Autopilot avoidance system to prevent accidentally straying into NullSec. If you enter claimable nullsec you should contact a Director/and or Diplomat as soon as possible.
Source: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/EVE_University_Rules
Include Districts/Planets in this and this will allow any D-Uni member to participate in P-Conquest with the consent of Director and involved entity. |
3 bird
DUST University Ivy League
121
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 21:56:00 -
[119] - Quote
I remember the big blue, I thought they were mad trying to do what they were doing and I do see the lesson your trying to point me to. It definitely gives us something else to consider. learning from history is important and shouldn't be ignored but that doesn't mean we wont be exploring the option of a coalition.
As we explore the possibility of a coalition we will be looking closely at why The Big Blue failed and what lessons we can learn from it, and see how those lessons apply to Dust.
As for worries on traceability of finances I don't think it would be an issue to post monthly audits. I say that but we would also need the accounting facility that we have in EVE, in Dust all we have at the moment is a wallet total. No audits, no incoming no out going just "you have X amount of isk"
If D-Uni goes bankrupt people will know about it from the members soon enough so I have no problem showing of our pitiful corp balance XD
Kev and others might think differently though but its something worth considering in terms of accountability of income. |
Cerebral Wolf Jr
Immobile Infantry
861
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 22:01:00 -
[120] - Quote
DU would be better off waiting for their to be more districts before attempting to get in on the ground level of something so hotly contested as this by so many people. |
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